What Do You Think The Bible Is?

just so we're on the same page, you do know what a red herring is right? fanofazrienoch

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

You mean simple answers based on personal opinion and totally lacking of any supporting evidence.

Mr_sprinkles

I find it funny though how you deny evolution, a well thoroughly observed, proved and established fact, and then go on to use dark energy (which is still no more than a hypothetical) as supposed proof of god.

Evolution a "proven fact"! That's a good one! Macro-evoilution is a house of cards built on myths and speculations. There is ZERO irrefutable proof of macro-evolution.

Let's just start with the origin of DNA. Protein formation depends on DNA and DNA replication depends on proteins. Also there is the language of DNA.

Why don't you just "enlighten" us with the scientif proof that DNA formed by chance in a warm pond as claimed by the slime plus time theory of macro-evolution.

You can't do it. If you believe that garbage, you have more faith than I could ever muster. The probl;em is your faith is in the vain philsophies of man, not God's truth.

No origin of life by chance, nothing for macro-evolution to work with.

[QUOTE="ATOMIC_TOAST"][QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"]

Physics and a wee bit of biology. The religious texty stuff is what I can't be bothered with.
Mr_sprinkles

Small world, I'm also a physicist. When did you get your bachelors?

Well, would it surprise you to know that I'll defend my PhD thesis in nuclear physics in about 6 months? And I believe the Bible? I'm not trying to brow-beat you friend or prove who is smarter. All I'm saying is, don't be so certain you'll get all the answers from your education. Give the Bible a read, no bias, just sit down and give it run-down. There's a saying I'm fond of, it goes something like this;

When you think you know everything, they give your bachelors.

When you realize you don't know anything, they give you your masters.

When you realize no one else knows anything either, they give you your PhD!

I was a militant atheist for 15 years and I loved to do exactly the sort of thing going on on this forum, make fun of believers. Man was I ever wrong! This is the honest truth, the more I learned, the less confident I became as an atheist. That's just me, its not proof of anything, I know, but hey, take it for what its worth. I did my best to close all the loops and exclude God from my mind and it just plain didn't work.

[QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"][QUOTE="ATOMIC_TOAST"][QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"]

Physics and a wee bit of biology. The religious texty stuff is what I can't be bothered with.
ATOMIC_TOAST

Small world, I'm also a physicist. When did you get your bachelors?

Well, would it surprise you to know that I'll defend my PhD thesis in nuclear physics in about 6 months? And I believe the Bible? I'm not trying to brow-beat you friend or prove who is smarter. All I'm saying is, don't be so certain you'll get all the answers from your education. Give the Bible a read, no bias, just sit down and give it run-down. There's a saying I'm fond of, it goes something like this;

When you think you know everything, they give your bachelors.

When you realize you don't know anything, they give you your masters.

When you realize no one else knows anything either, they give you your PhD!

I was a militant atheist for 15 years and I loved to do exactly the sort of thing going on on this forum, make fun of believers. Man was I ever wrong! This is the honest truth, the more I learned, the less confident I became as an atheist. That's just me, its not proof of anything, I know, but hey, take it for what its worth.

#edit# actually, saying that, I haven't read all of the OT.

[QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

You mean simple answers based on personal opinion and totally lacking of any supporting evidence.

blackregiment

I find it funny though how you deny evolution, a well thoroughly observed, proved and established fact, and then go on to use dark energy (which is still no more than a hypothetical) as supposed proof of god.

Evolution a "proven fact"! That's a good one! Macro-evoilution is a house of cards built on myths and speculations. There is ZERO irrefutable proof of macro-evolution.

Let's just start with the origin of DNA. Protein formation depends on DNA and DNA replication depends on proteins. Also there is the language of DNA.

Why don't you just "enlighten" us with the scientif proof that DNA formed by chance in a warm pond as claimed by the slime plus time theory of macro-evolution.

You can't do it. If you believe that garbage, you have more faith than I could ever muster. The probl;em is your faith is in the vain philsophies of man, not God's truth.

No origin of life by chance, nothing for macro-evolution to work with.

Biogenesis has abso-******-lutely nothing to do with evolution.

Macro-evolution is a term invented by people who do not understand evolution. To science "literate" people it's called speciation. Google: observed instances of speciation.

blackregiment, you seem to be a very religious person who lives every second of his life by the bible. Odd why you're here on a video game forum, but anyway, could you look up the following in your bible and do explain them to me?

2 Kings 2:23, 24

Psalms 83:18

Matthew 24:14

Hey, I wasn't attacking the bible, just some of the pretend science. I have read the bible actually. The whole organised religion thing just doesn't work for me.
Mr_sprinkles

[QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"]Hey, I wasn't attacking the bible, just some of the pretend science. I have read the bible actually. The whole organised religion thing just doesn't work for me.
fanofazrienoch

[QUOTE="ATOMIC_TOAST"][QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"][QUOTE="ATOMIC_TOAST"][QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"]

Physics and a wee bit of biology. The religious texty stuff is what I can't be bothered with.
Mr_sprinkles

Small world, I'm also a physicist. When did you get your bachelors?

Well, would it surprise you to know that I'll defend my PhD thesis in nuclear physics in about 6 months? And I believe the Bible? I'm not trying to brow-beat you friend or prove who is smarter. All I'm saying is, don't be so certain you'll get all the answers from your education. Give the Bible a read, no bias, just sit down and give it run-down. There's a saying I'm fond of, it goes something like this;

When you think you know everything, they give your bachelors.

When you realize you don't know anything, they give you your masters.

When you realize no one else knows anything either, they give you your PhD!

I was a militant atheist for 15 years and I loved to do exactly the sort of thing going on on this forum, make fun of believers. Man was I ever wrong! This is the honest truth, the more I learned, the less confident I became as an atheist. That's just me, its not proof of anything, I know, but hey, take it for what its worth.

See, I totaly agree with you on that....the Bible is used in all kinds of organized, ritualized religions but thats not what its main message is about at all. The Gospel message is simple. We were commanded to live a righteous life and instead we sinned. Jesus came, God in the flesh, to live that righteous life, die on the cross as an atoning sacrifice so that for all who believe that He is God and he rose in victory over death, then when they go before God in judgment, God looks to Jesus' punishment on the Cross as a substitute for ours. He look to Jesus' perfect life as a substitute for our lack of one. That's it. Believe and call on the name of Jesus to save you and you'll be saved. No clubs, no socials, no magic spells, no rituals, you just have to ask God to forgive you and believe it when you ask. Then its done. Believers go to church because they want to, not because they have to. That doesn't mean mixed up people don't go for other reasons. The only real reason people don't like the Gospel, once they figure out what it is, is that it robs them of the rituals, and the knowledge and the good deeds and all the other things they used to use to get other peolpe to think that they are great. But the truth is God does everything for you, all you have to do is let go of boasting in your own ability. The Gospel didn't destroy my mind my friend, it destroyed my ego. And thats what it takes, not rituals and organizations, but to forsake myself and my own praises and instead praise God.

[QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]

You can't prove that Jesus was resurrected, so this discussion you made was pointless from the beginning. If I was given evidence that Jesus existed, I would accept it. But there just isn't any. Since there isn't any proof for or against the existence of Jesus, you have the right to believe he existed and I have the right to disagree.

Drakorain

Uh, hello? Several people have given you evidence in here. The one and only reason you continuously ignore them is because you have some irrational bias towards all things religious.

Jesus existed. Deal with it.

No, it's because the only evidence that has been given is from religion. I would whole-heartedly believe it if given evidence that doesn't not come from religion. Like I said earlier, you can't prove he existed one way or the other, but the burden of proof is on those that believe it and push it on others.

Ok fellas, gotta go for today. Drop me some PM's if you want to follow up on aything with me. Otherwise, I'll be back tomorrow.

Seek God out, you won't be sorry :) Peace and God Bless, AT

[QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]

You can't prove that Jesus was resurrected, so this discussion you made was pointless from the beginning. If I was given evidence that Jesus existed, I would accept it. But there just isn't any. Since there isn't any proof for or against the existence of Jesus, you have the right to believe he existed and I have the right to disagree.

fanofazrienoch

No, there's isn't proof that Jesus existed or was resurrected. Anything from a unbias third-party. Not people who worshiped said individual or people who came way after said individual was suppose to have existed.

[QUOTE="Drakorain"][QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]

You can't prove that Jesus was resurrected, so this discussion you made was pointless from the beginning. If I was given evidence that Jesus existed, I would accept it. But there just isn't any. Since there isn't any proof for or against the existence of Jesus, you have the right to believe he existed and I have the right to disagree.

ElectronicMagic

Uh, hello? Several people have given you evidence in here. The one and only reason you continuously ignore them is because you have some irrational bias towards all things religious.

Jesus existed. Deal with it.

No, it's because the only evidence that has been given is from religion. I would whole-heartedly believe it if given evidence that doesn't not come from religion. Like I said earlier, you can't prove he existed one way or the other, but the burden of proof is on those that believe it and push it on others.

Tacitus and Josephus. Both were first-cIass historians. Neither were Christians. Neither are mentioned in any religious text. And finally, just because it is religious doesn't make it false. Sodom and Gomorrah are proof of this.

There are also many others. Brought up in this very topic. That you ignored.

See, I totaly agree with you on that....the Bible is used in all kinds of organized, ritualized religions but thats not what its main message is about at all. The Gospel message is simple. We were commanded to live a righteous life and instead we sinned. Jesus came, God in the flesh, to live that righteous life, die on the cross as an atoning sacrifice so that for all who believe that He is God and he rose in victory over death, then when they go before God in judgment, God looks to Jesus' punishment on the Cross as a substitute for ours. He look to Jesus' perfect life as a substitute for our lack of one. That's it. Believe and call on the name of Jesus to save you and you'll be saved. No clubs, no socials, no magic spells, no rituals, you just have to ask God to forgive you and believe it when you ask. Then its done. Believers go to church because they want to, not because they have to. That doesn't mean mixed up people don't go for other reasons. The only real reason people don't like the Gospel, once they figure out what it is, is that it robs them of the rituals, and the knowledge and the good deeds and all the other things they used to use to get other peolpe to think that they are great. But the truth is God does everything for you, all you have to do is let go of boasting in your own ability. The Gospel didn't destroy my mind my friend, it destroyed my ego. And thats what it takes, not rituals and organizations, but to forsake myself and my own praises and instead praise God.

ATOMIC_TOAST

[QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"][QUOTE="Drakorain"][QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]

You can't prove that Jesus was resurrected, so this discussion you made was pointless from the beginning. If I was given evidence that Jesus existed, I would accept it. But there just isn't any. Since there isn't any proof for or against the existence of Jesus, you have the right to believe he existed and I have the right to disagree.

Drakorain

Uh, hello? Several people have given you evidence in here. The one and only reason you continuously ignore them is because you have some irrational bias towards all things religious.

Jesus existed. Deal with it.

No, it's because the only evidence that has been given is from religion. I would whole-heartedly believe it if given evidence that doesn't not come from religion. Like I said earlier, you can't prove he existed one way or the other, but the burden of proof is on those that believe it and push it on others.

Tacitus and Josephus. Both were first-cIass historians. Neither were Christians. Neither are mentioned in any religious text. And finally, just because it is religious doesn't make it false. Sodom and Gomorrah are proof of this.

There are also many others. Brought up in this very topic. That you ignored.

I will look into them, but what you fail to realize is that when in a discussion with atleast three different individuals, some of them posting walls of texts, you can't simply read through every single sentence. I will look into those and decided accordingly. Simply being religious doesn't make it false, but it makes it unbias.

Manual of Morality.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"][QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

You mean simple answers based on personal opinion and totally lacking of any supporting evidence.

MindFreeze

I find it funny though how you deny evolution, a well thoroughly observed, proved and established fact, and then go on to use dark energy (which is still no more than a hypothetical) as supposed proof of god.

Evolution a "proven fact"! That's a good one! Macro-evoilution is a house of cards built on myths and speculations. There is ZERO irrefutable proof of macro-evolution.

Let's just start with the origin of DNA. Protein formation depends on DNA and DNA replication depends on proteins. Also there is the language of DNA.

Why don't you just "enlighten" us with the scientif proof that DNA formed by chance in a warm pond as claimed by the slime plus time theory of macro-evolution.

You can't do it. If you believe that garbage, you have more faith than I could ever muster. The probl;em is your faith is in the vain philsophies of man, not God's truth.

No origin of life by chance, nothing for macro-evolution to work with.

Biogenesis has abso-******-lutely nothing to do with evolution.

Macro-evolution is a term invented by people who do not understand evolution. To science "literate" people it's called speciation. Google: observed instances of speciation.

You may no want it to but it does. No origin of life, nothing to evolve.

By the way, before you slyly comment on "science intellect", you might want to get some yourself.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/history_09

It's less embarassing that way.

Alright, I skimmed through a bit about Josephus and Tacitus and if there was ever to be evidence that would come close to convincing me that Jesus actually existed, it is that. However further reading showed that there is a little authencity problem between both Tacitus and Josephus. From what I've read, it sounds as if a lot of people believe that Christian scribes got a hold of what Tacitus and Josephus wrote.ElectronicMagic

We call that an "unfounded conspiracy theory."

I will look into them, but what you fail to realize is that when in a discussion with atleast three different individuals, some of them posting walls of texts, you can't simply read through every single sentence. I will look into those and decided accordingly. Simply being religious doesn't make it false, but it makes it unbias.

ElectronicMagic

I think you mean bias.

And being true makes it bias. All truth claims exclude their opposite.

[QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]Alright, I skimmed through a bit about Josephus and Tacitus and if there was ever to be evidence that would come close to convincing me that Jesus actually existed, it is that. However further reading showed that there is a little authencity problem between both Tacitus and Josephus. From what I've read, it sounds as if a lot of people believe that Christian scribes got a hold of what Tacitus and Josephus wrote.Drakorain

We call that an "unfounded conspiracy theory."

And we call Christianity, mythology.

Well, I have to go too. See you later.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[QUOTE="Drakorain"]

[QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]Alright, I skimmed through a bit about Josephus and Tacitus and if there was ever to be evidence that would come close to convincing me that Jesus actually existed, it is that. However further reading showed that there is a little authencity problem between both Tacitus and Josephus. From what I've read, it sounds as if a lot of people believe that Christian scribes got a hold of what Tacitus and Josephus wrote.ElectronicMagic

We call that an "unfounded conspiracy theory."

And we call Christianity, mythology.

Oh noes, I been owned.

Historians call Jesus-mythers "wrong."

[QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]

I will look into them, but what you fail to realize is that when in a discussion with atleast three different individuals, some of them posting walls of texts, you can't simply read through every single sentence. I will look into those and decided accordingly. Simply being religious doesn't make it false, but it makes it unbias.

Drakorain

I think you mean bias.

And being true makes it bias. All truth claims exclude their opposite.

Yes, that's what I mean. Grammatical errors are liable to happen, only human after all.

myths and legends, which would also make it fictional.C_Town_Soul

Somebody doesn't know what a myth is.

Tell me, are you even aware of the issue with your signature?

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"]myths and legends, which would also make it fictional.Drakorain

Somebody doesn't know what a myth is.

Tell me, are you even aware of the issue with your signature?

:Deleted quote: For the confused.

The idea of sin doesn't even make sense to me. If God wanted us not to do such things, wouldn't he of made us so we didn't commit such "sins". 'That's cause we got free will' He could of still made our instincts in a way to not do such things without interrupting this free will.

My fellow earthlings commit the same sins as well, like cats, dogs, apes. These animals would obviously know nothing of God, Jesus or the like. Are they banished to hell for this or insignificant because they don't have a brain quite as large as a human? Maybe prehaps a free pass? If it's either banished to hell, free pass, or just treated as insignificant, why is one side getting special treatment due to the capacity of their brain?

When it comes to religous matters, also life and death. I think all living things should have the same rules applied. it seems absurd that some creatures would get special treatment imo. This is why I don't belive in ghosts as well, as you wouldn't be seeing grass ghosts, that would be absurd right?

[QUOTE="Drakorain"]

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"]myths and legends, which would also make it fictional.C_Town_Soul

Somebody doesn't know what a myth is.

Tell me, are you even aware of the issue with your signature?

Myth: A traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people. wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

And is there any reason why I should tell you the painfully obvious problem with that sig when I could let you keep posting with it to give others entertainment? It isn't at all hard to figure out.

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="Drakorain"]

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"]myths and legends, which would also make it fictional.Drakorain

Somebody doesn't know what a myth is.

Tell me, are you even aware of the issue with your signature?

Myth: A traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

And is there any reason why I should tell you the painfully obvious problem with that sig when I could let you keep posting with it to give others entertainment? It isn't at all hard to figure out.

And I still don't see anything wrong with my sig.

[QUOTE="MindFreeze"][QUOTE="blackregiment"][QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

You mean simple answers based on personal opinion and totally lacking of any supporting evidence.

blackregiment

I find it funny though how you deny evolution, a well thoroughly observed, proved and established fact, and then go on to use dark energy (which is still no more than a hypothetical) as supposed proof of god.

Evolution a "proven fact"! That's a good one! Macro-evoilution is a house of cards built on myths and speculations. There is ZERO irrefutable proof of macro-evolution.

Let's just start with the origin of DNA. Protein formation depends on DNA and DNA replication depends on proteins. Also there is the language of DNA.

Why don't you just "enlighten" us with the scientif proof that DNA formed by chance in a warm pond as claimed by the slime plus time theory of macro-evolution.

You can't do it. If you believe that garbage, you have more faith than I could ever muster. The probl;em is your faith is in the vain philsophies of man, not God's truth.

No origin of life by chance, nothing for macro-evolution to work with.

Biogenesis has abso-******-lutely nothing to do with evolution.

Macro-evolution is a term invented by people who do not understand evolution. To science "literate" people it's called speciation. Google: observed instances of speciation.

You may no want it to but it does. No origin of life, nothing to evolve.

By the way, before you slyly comment on "science intellect", you might want to get some yourself.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/history_09

It's less embarassing that way.

The Theory of Evolution explains the diversity of life that has inhabited earth over the last few billions of years up till this very moment. It does not even attempt to address the way life started, neither does it aim to. If you deny that, then I have no clue what to tell you.

You give me a link to early evolution theories. What's your point? The whole point of science is to continue to search for more information and edit our knowledge according to it as we find out more. We do not live by the original version of The Origin Of Species, many improvements have been made (for example punctuated equilibrium) and some things have been found to be nonesense (understandably since he had no clue of DNA.)

[QUOTE="MindFreeze"][QUOTE="blackregiment"][QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

You mean simple answers based on personal opinion and totally lacking of any supporting evidence.

blackregiment

I find it funny though how you deny evolution, a well thoroughly observed, proved and established fact, and then go on to use dark energy (which is still no more than a hypothetical) as supposed proof of god.

Evolution a "proven fact"! That's a good one! Macro-evoilution is a house of cards built on myths and speculations. There is ZERO irrefutable proof of macro-evolution.

Let's just start with the origin of DNA. Protein formation depends on DNA and DNA replication depends on proteins. Also there is the language of DNA.

Why don't you just "enlighten" us with the scientif proof that DNA formed by chance in a warm pond as claimed by the slime plus time theory of macro-evolution.

You can't do it. If you believe that garbage, you have more faith than I could ever muster. The probl;em is your faith is in the vain philsophies of man, not God's truth.

No origin of life by chance, nothing for macro-evolution to work with.

Biogenesis has abso-******-lutely nothing to do with evolution.

Macro-evolution is a term invented by people who do not understand evolution. To science "literate" people it's called speciation. Google: observed instances of speciation.

You may no want it to but it does. No origin of life, nothing to evolve.

By the way, before you slyly comment on "science intellect", you might want to get some yourself.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/history_09

It's less embarassing that way.

[QUOTE="Drakorain"][QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="Drakorain"]

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"]myths and legends, which would also make it fictional.C_Town_Soul

Somebody doesn't know what a myth is.

Tell me, are you even aware of the issue with your signature?

Myth: A traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

And is there any reason why I should tell you the painfully obvious problem with that sig when I could let you keep posting with it to give others entertainment? It isn't at all hard to figure out.

And I still don't see anything wrong with my sig.

Argue with Princeton, not me. I'm sure you know much more about what a myth is than they do.:roll:

By the way, I have referred to Christianity as a myth before.

If you still don't see it, then try looking that verse up on a website that doesn't endorced SAB.

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="Drakorain"][QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"][QUOTE="Drakorain"]

[QUOTE="C_Town_Soul"]myths and legends, which would also make it fictional.Drakorain

Somebody doesn't know what a myth is.

Tell me, are you even aware of the issue with your signature?

Myth: A traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

And is there any reason why I should tell you the painfully obvious problem with that sig when I could let you keep posting with it to give others entertainment? It isn't at all hard to figure out.

And I still don't see anything wrong with my sig.

Argue with Princeton, not me. I'm sure you know much more about what a myth is than they do.:roll:

By the way, I have referred to Christianity as a myth before.

If you still don't see it, then try looking that verse up on a website that doesn't endorced SAB.

And most other websites are translations from different biblical versions of that verse. So what?

[QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"][QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]

You can't prove that Jesus was resurrected, so this discussion you made was pointless from the beginning. If I was given evidence that Jesus existed, I would accept it. But there just isn't any. Since there isn't any proof for or against the existence of Jesus, you have the right to believe he existed and I have the right to disagree.

ElectronicMagic

No, there's isn't proof that Jesus existed or was resurrected. Anything from a unbias third-party. Not people who worshiped said individual or people who came way after said individual was suppose to have existed.

HAHAHAHAHAHA i laugh at all the hardcore people.....the "holy" bible is a book written just like every other book book....the only reason it is special is because the people who wrote it needed something to fall on.....all religion is what makes you comfortable with your life...i am a satanist which is in fact an official religion and we condemo the judeo christian society for being decietful and holding lucifer as responsidble for all problems....now i personally dont care abotu your religion or what makes you happy but being continously bashed in the face with the "perfect" chiristian ideals from the book is absurd...the book is filled with laws that itself breaks...and tells you to refuse your inner beast and hold back the things that makes us man...so i say it deserves a place right next to the book of mormon in my burn barrel outside providing burn material for my fire....

"Based on true events" comes to mind.

HAHAHAHAHAHA i laugh at all the hardcore people.....the "holy" bible is a book written just like every other book book....the only reason it is special is because the people who wrote it needed something to fall on.....all religion is what makes you comfortable with your life...i am a satanist which is in fact an official religion and we condemo the judeo christian society for being decietful and holding lucifer as responsidble for all problems....now i personally dont care abotu your religion or what makes you happy but being continously bashed in the face with the "perfect" chiristian ideals from the book is absurd...the book is filled with laws that itself breaks...and tells you to refuse your inner beast and hold back the things that makes us man...so i say it deserves a place right next to the book of mormon in my burn barrel outside providing burn material for my fire....

dragonzomb

I like living in civilized western society because life in a state of nature is solitary, poor, brutish, and above all short.