Transgender Sues CrossFit After Competition Ban.

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Avatar image for deeliman
#51 Posted by deeliman (3742 posts) -

@Barbariser said:

This thread is full of stupidity and ignorance. Transwomen are women, get over it. This woman is legally female, and according to the International Olympic Committee, transwomen have no athletic advantage over ciswomen provided that they've undergone two years of hormone treatment, and this woman's been under that for eight. Crossfit has basically no grounds to stand on here.

Also, the idea that sex reassignment is somehow "traumatic" (in itself, a huge misconception) doesn't mean shit. Seriously are you fucking kidding me? It doesn't fucking matter whether she went through a life-changing experience eight years ago. it's probably pretty damn distressing for someone to be told that she can't compete as a her own sex and then being asked to compete with men who have huge physical advantages over her.

That bullshit is like saying that black people in 1950 should have been pretty happy with segregation because they'd suffered for so long under slavery. Yeah, if anyone here actually used that kind of logic, please shoot yourself in the head and increase humanity's mean IQ.

/end thread

Avatar image for Smokescreened84
#52 Posted by Smokescreened84 (2565 posts) -

There is no physical advantage for transwomen once they've been on HRT for a good number of years, it's been found that many transwomen can end up being physically weaker than a cis-woman, strong bones don't make any difference, without the muscle mass to back it up then that person has no physical advantage. Transwomen have to work extremely hard to regain even a portion of the strength they may have had before and even then there is no guarantee of success in managing that, the HRT can fairly cause a considerable loss of physical strength, it's one of the reasons why it's strongly recommended that the person be sure to exercise and keep their health in good shape during their transition, especially while on HRT.

She is a woman, she is legally identified as a woman, eight years on HRT has taken away any physical advantage. Putting her up against men is very dangerous for her and frankly cruel and ignorant.

Get over your cis-privileges and clear ignorance, genetics don't determine who you are as a person and they don't play much of a part when undergoing a process that causes considerable changes to the body's physical development beyond how the hormones will work, transitioning early can be more effective than starting later in life since if the person transitions early before testosterone makes a nasty amount of changes to the skeletal structure then they can develop with more ease and greater results.

And bear in mind that there are cis-women with strong bones and cis-males with bones that aren't as strong.

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#53 Posted by themajormayor (25536 posts) -
@Aljosa23 said:

Anyone should be able to compete in whatever they league they want if they are good enough. Unfair for others? Tough shit, I do not see players complaining about Cristiano Ronaldo being tall yet able to run like a god damn gazelle or some other physically gifted attribute. Arbitrary "fairness" in sports is so stupid.

So what you're basically saying is that there should be no women in professional sports under pretty much any circumstances.

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#54 Posted by themajormayor (25536 posts) -
@lamprey263 said:

"female" is to denote sexual characteristic, "woman" denotes a social role which in most cases is treated as compulsively synonymous but there is a difference there

though the transgender woman joined a female competition she is not a female, and there's also a sexual dimorphic advantage that would make it unfair for her to compete amongst the other females

legally though, if the person were to go through a sex change operation, they'd be legally designated as a female, in such a case maybe the plaintiff's case would be stronger

"Woman" is a "female" human.

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#55 Posted by UnbiasedPoster (1134 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

Anyone should be able to compete in whatever they league they want if they are good enough. Unfair for others? Tough shit, I do not see players complaining about Cristiano Ronaldo being tall yet able to run like a god damn gazelle or some other physically gifted attribute. Arbitrary "fairness" in sports is so stupid.

That would be a half decent argument if soccer divided its league using height instead of sex.

Avatar image for Braun_Roid_Rage
#56 Edited by Braun_Roid_Rage (790 posts) -

@redstorm72 said:

Cutting off your balls and taking female hormones doesn't make you a women, just a dude with no balls and a high voice. I hate how we have to pretend that trans gender people have magically changed their genetic make up just because they don't "feel" like the sex they were born. Buck the **** up guys, you are who you are, surgery won't change it, just hide it. Might as well accept it.

*awaits bleeding heart/politically correct brigades response*

QFT

Avatar image for hippiesanta
#57 Posted by hippiesanta (10299 posts) -
@Master_Live said:

Transgender athlete sues CrossFit for banning her from competing as female

A transgender woman prohibited from competing in a strength competition as a female is suing the fitness company sponsoring the competition, seeking $2.5 million in damages.

er of their birth.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Should she be allowed to participate? No.

What you say OT?

HELL NO! because the transgender is basically a MALE ..... and he will outdo all the REAL FEMALE CONTESTANT

Avatar image for EatShanna
#58 Posted by EatShanna (875 posts) -
@Trender_man said:

really, $2.5 million in damages for emotional distress

Yep, emotional distress has a price tag, and it's 2.5 million Dollars!

Avatar image for o0squishy0o
#59 Posted by o0squishy0o (2792 posts) -

My only argument against it would be the physical side of a male body is "muscle wise" stronger than a females. Atleast to my understanding. Now if the treatment for the woman in question has given her the same body as a woman from a strength perspective then I would say she should be able to compete. However I have a hard time believing that she will have the body of a woman because she grew up with the skeletal structure of a male which allows for (from what I remember) stronger shoulders and hips.

If someone can show evidence that proves that is possible and it is a level playing field then I would accept her participation. Personally I like some things to stay the same so we have a tradition. I am not saying a crossfit thing is important as part of a tradition but for example if we have a male football league, I would want only males to play. I don't see the need to "include" everyone to then make it an open sport because for me you are losing something when another thing can be opened up for a mixed league.

I have no issue with transgender people or their want to have inclusion into a sport or workplace or whatever. My only concern would be that of unfair advantages such as higher muscle density and strength. For example if womens body building became so popular, would you want males to take the transgender treatment just to then be able to compete unfairly (if I believe the information to be true about physical differences) that would then put natural (and I dont mean that in a horrible way to transgenders) women at a huge disadvantage and thus losing any real chance of showing their ability off and getting the correct recognition.

Avatar image for Stevo_the_gamer
#60 Posted by Stevo_the_gamer (44839 posts) -
@Trender_man said:

really, $2.5 million in damages for emotional distress

Merica'

Avatar image for ChiefvsGordon
#61 Posted by ChiefvsGordon (1085 posts) -

The simple answer is no, it is not fair. She should have known that these controversy would follow and most likely she would not have been allowed, that's just the way it is. If her dream was to win the cross fit games she should have stayed a man and competed as a man, then go under the knife. This reminds me of the fallon fox case where a man developed as a man, got a sex change then went into women's mma. how is that ethical in any way.

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#63 Posted by HoolaHoopMan (9363 posts) -

I'd let her compete. But 2.5 million dollars though? Seriously, she can **** off.

Avatar image for toast_burner
#64 Edited by toast_burner (24692 posts) -

@JimB said:

OH to go back to the days when men were men and women were women.

Those days never existed. Human gender and sexuality has always been a complicated thing. It's nothing new.

Avatar image for Barbariser
#65 Posted by Barbariser (6785 posts) -

ITT: most of OT fucks up law, biology, psychology and history at the same time.

Avatar image for lostrib
#66 Posted by lostrib (49999 posts) -

@Barbariser said:

ITT: most of OT fucks up law, biology, psychology and history at the same time.

That's pretty impressive, usually they can only manage 2 at a time

Avatar image for lostrib
#67 Posted by lostrib (49999 posts) -

@Barbariser said:

This thread is full of stupidity and ignorance. Transwomen are women, get over it. This woman is legally female, and according to the International Olympic Committee, transwomen have no athletic advantage over ciswomen provided that they've undergone two years of hormone treatment, and this woman's been under that for eight. Crossfit has basically no grounds to stand on here.

Also, the idea that sex reassignment is somehow "traumatic" (in itself, a huge misconception) doesn't mean shit. Seriously are you fucking kidding me? It doesn't fucking matter whether she went through a life-changing experience eight years ago. it's probably pretty damn distressing for someone to be told that she can't compete as a her own sex and then being asked to compete with men who have huge physical advantages over her.

That bullshit is like saying that black people in 1950 should have been pretty happy with segregation because they'd suffered for so long under slavery. Yeah, if anyone here actually used that kind of logic, please shoot yourself in the head and increase humanity's mean IQ.

Do you have links for this? it would be interesting to read

Avatar image for Barbariser
#68 Posted by Barbariser (6785 posts) -

@lostrib said:

@Barbariser said:

This thread is full of stupidity and ignorance. Transwomen are women, get over it. This woman is legally female, and according to the International Olympic Committee, transwomen have no athletic advantage over ciswomen provided that they've undergone two years of hormone treatment, and this woman's been under that for eight. Crossfit has basically no grounds to stand on here.

Also, the idea that sex reassignment is somehow "traumatic" (in itself, a huge misconception) doesn't mean shit. Seriously are you fucking kidding me? It doesn't fucking matter whether she went through a life-changing experience eight years ago. it's probably pretty damn distressing for someone to be told that she can't compete as a her own sex and then being asked to compete with men who have huge physical advantages over her.

That bullshit is like saying that black people in 1950 should have been pretty happy with segregation because they'd suffered for so long under slavery. Yeah, if anyone here actually used that kind of logic, please shoot yourself in the head and increase humanity's mean IQ.

Do you have links for this? it would be interesting to read

The OP article states that she's legally female somewhere, and you can see the rules and citation on this wikipedia page. For extra proof you can ask the NCAA which argues for an even lower period of treatment before the advantage is gone.

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#69 Posted by foxhound_fox (96695 posts) -

She had sexual reassignment surgery?

She's a woman.

Avatar image for lostrib
#70 Posted by lostrib (49999 posts) -

@Barbariser said:

@lostrib said:

@Barbariser said:

This thread is full of stupidity and ignorance. Transwomen are women, get over it. This woman is legally female, and according to the International Olympic Committee, transwomen have no athletic advantage over ciswomen provided that they've undergone two years of hormone treatment, and this woman's been under that for eight. Crossfit has basically no grounds to stand on here.

Also, the idea that sex reassignment is somehow "traumatic" (in itself, a huge misconception) doesn't mean shit. Seriously are you fucking kidding me? It doesn't fucking matter whether she went through a life-changing experience eight years ago. it's probably pretty damn distressing for someone to be told that she can't compete as a her own sex and then being asked to compete with men who have huge physical advantages over her.

That bullshit is like saying that black people in 1950 should have been pretty happy with segregation because they'd suffered for so long under slavery. Yeah, if anyone here actually used that kind of logic, please shoot yourself in the head and increase humanity's mean IQ.

Do you have links for this? it would be interesting to read

The OP article states that she's legally female somewhere, and you can see the rules and citation on this wikipedia page. For extra proof you can ask the NCAA which argues for an even lower period of treatment before the advantage is gone.

thanks

Avatar image for -Toshy-
#71 Edited by -Toshy- (1376 posts) -

lol at CrossFit not knowing jacksh!t about the effects that HRT has on the body.
Barbariser already said everything (in regards to the two years on HRT deal and what not) that I was going to post.

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#72 Posted by OmegaPillow (1039 posts) -

@Barbariser: nope she's a man who's pretending to be a woman

Avatar image for Smokescreened84
#73 Posted by Smokescreened84 (2565 posts) -

@OmegaPillow said:

@Barbariser: nope she's a man who's pretending to be a woman

No, she's a woman who's a woman, you're an idiot who's an idiot. Only you chose to be an idiot, she didn't choose to be female, she was born that way.

Avatar image for Santesyu
#74 Edited by Santesyu (4451 posts) -

@always_explicit: You obviously doesn't know how to feel to be transgendered, even though I am on hormones and full time I haven't had SRS yet and havent done the legal paperwork but if I went through all of that to be denied of what I should not be that would emotional distress me to be honest.

Avatar image for lostrib
#75 Edited by lostrib (49999 posts) -

@Smokescreened84 said:

@OmegaPillow said:

@Barbariser: nope she's a man who's pretending to be a woman

No, she's a woman who's a woman, you're an idiot who's an idiot. Only you chose to be an idiot, she didn't choose to be female, she was born that way.

She's legally, and most likely physically a woman; she is genetically male.

Avatar image for plageus900
#76 Edited by plageus900 (2324 posts) -

@Santesyu said:

@always_explicit: You obviously doesn't know how to feel to be transgendered, even though I am on hormones and full time I haven't had SRS yet and havent done the legal paperwork but if I went through all of that to be denied of what I should not be that would emotional distress me to be honest.

Your inability to use proper grammar is causing me emotional distress. Get your lawyer, snowflake. I'm taking your ass to court.

Avatar image for Santesyu
#77 Posted by Santesyu (4451 posts) -

@plageus900: That's the best you can do? I feel sorry for you.

Avatar image for plageus900
#78 Edited by plageus900 (2324 posts) -

@Santesyu said:

@plageus900: That's the best you can do? I feel sorry for you.

Sounds ridiculous right? Just about as ridiculous as suing because your 'feelings' got hurt.

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#79 Edited by KHAndAnime (17565 posts) -

Transgenders can't expect the world to conform them. But you can't expect a transgender person to be logical, their whole lives are obviously geared towards their emotions and dealing with them. If they accepted that they aren't going to be a living a normal life anymore, they might as well accept it fully.

Avatar image for KHAndAnime
#82 Edited by KHAndAnime (17565 posts) -

@Barbariser said:

This thread is full of stupidity and ignorance. Transwomen are women, get over it. This woman is legally female, and according to the International Olympic Committee, transwomen have no athletic advantage over ciswomen provided that they've undergone two years of hormone treatment, and this woman's been under that for eight. Crossfit has basically no grounds to stand on here.

Also, the idea that sex reassignment is somehow "traumatic" (in itself, a huge misconception) doesn't mean shit. Seriously are you fucking kidding me? It doesn't fucking matter whether she went through a life-changing experience eight years ago. it's probably pretty damn distressing for someone to be told that she can't compete as a her own sex and then being asked to compete with men who have huge physical advantages over her.

That bullshit is like saying that black people in 1950 should have been pretty happy with segregation because they'd suffered for so long under slavery. Yeah, if anyone here actually used that kind of logic, please shoot yourself in the head and increase humanity's mean IQ.

Congratulations, you compared slavery to the struggle of transexuals. Going to compare their struggle to what jews went through in the holocaust? I'm sure you think transexuals have it tougher...

When you say such things, people will be inclined to think you're nuts. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". I'm sure you'd love to bend all the rules in a transexual person's favor, as long as their feelings aren't hurt...

But whatever about every one else? Should all the women feel like shit because they get beat out by people who weren't even born as a woman? It's not like women were born with men's muscles...Perpetuation of a delusion isn't good for anyone, sorry.

Avatar image for toast_burner
#83 Posted by toast_burner (24692 posts) -

@KHAndAnime said:

Transgenders can't expect the world to conform them. But you can't expect a transgender person to be logical, their whole lives are obviously geared towards their emotions and dealing with them. If they accepted that they aren't going to be a living a normal life anymore, they might as well accept it fully.

yep because asking to not be discriminated against is the same as asking for the world to conform to you.

Avatar image for KHAndAnime
#84 Edited by KHAndAnime (17565 posts) -

@toast_burner said:

@KHAndAnime said:

Transgenders can't expect the world to conform them. But you can't expect a transgender person to be logical, their whole lives are obviously geared towards their emotions and dealing with them. If they accepted that they aren't going to be a living a normal life anymore, they might as well accept it fully.

yep because asking to not be discriminated against is the same as asking for the world to conform to you.

She's not being discriminated against. Any person being born a man would be unable to enter the competition. What she's asking for is conformation. She wants people to ignore reality to perpetuate her delusion, while breaking the very essence of a fair competition. What is sad about this article is how this will bring a negative public reception to transexuals and transgendered folk. People will think they're all crazy when a few nutjobs attempt to make ridiculous cases like this.

There are more important things that these people should be worrying about than their sexual identity.

Avatar image for toast_burner
#85 Edited by toast_burner (24692 posts) -

@KHAndAnime said:

@toast_burner said:

@KHAndAnime said:

Transgenders can't expect the world to conform them. But you can't expect a transgender person to be logical, their whole lives are obviously geared towards their emotions and dealing with them. If they accepted that they aren't going to be a living a normal life anymore, they might as well accept it fully.

yep because asking to not be discriminated against is the same as asking for the world to conform to you.

She's not being discriminated against. Any person being born a man would be unable to enter the competition. What she's asking for is conformation. She wants people to ignore reality to perpetuate her delusion, while breaking the very essence of a fair competition. What is sad about this article is how this will bring a negative public reception to transexuals and transgendered folk. People will think they're all crazy when a few nutjobs attempt to make ridiculous cases like this.

There are more important things that these people should be worrying about than their sexual identity.

That's no different than the stupid "gays aren't being discriminated, they have the right to marry the opposite sex just like everyone else" argument.

And how would her joining make the competition unfair? Going through HRT cancels out the genetic advantages men have over women.

Avatar image for Barbariser
#86 Posted by Barbariser (6785 posts) -
@KHAndAnime said:

@Barbariser said:

This thread is full of stupidity and ignorance. Transwomen are women, get over it. This woman is legally female, and according to the International Olympic Committee, transwomen have no athletic advantage over ciswomen provided that they've undergone two years of hormone treatment, and this woman's been under that for eight. Crossfit has basically no grounds to stand on here.

Also, the idea that sex reassignment is somehow "traumatic" (in itself, a huge misconception) doesn't mean shit. Seriously are you fucking kidding me? It doesn't fucking matter whether she went through a life-changing experience eight years ago. it's probably pretty damn distressing for someone to be told that she can't compete as a her own sex and then being asked to compete with men who have huge physical advantages over her.

That bullshit is like saying that black people in 1950 should have been pretty happy with segregation because they'd suffered for so long under slavery. Yeah, if anyone here actually used that kind of logic, please shoot yourself in the head and increase humanity's mean IQ.

Congratulations, you compared slavery to the struggle of transexuals. Going to compare their struggle to what jews went through in the holocaust? I'm sure you think transexuals have it tougher...

When you say such things, people will be inclined to think you're nuts. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". I'm sure you'd love to bend all the rules in a transexual person's favor, as long as their feelings aren't hurt...

But whatever about every one else? Should all the women feel like shit because they get beat out by people who weren't even born as a woman? It's not like women were born with men's muscles...Perpetuation of a delusion isn't good for anyone, sorry.

Wow, did you even bother to understand anything I said? The comparison was to show that even if people have suffered great traumas in the past, doesn't mean they should be asked to ignore lesser traumas in the future. So yes I would use that counter with the holocaust, if someone was actually dumb enough to argue that Jews should never get angry/distressed at anything because they already went through an attempted genocide.

Also I already debunked that male muscle advantage nonsense in the post you just quoted; according to the IOC and the NCAA, transwomen who have been under HRT for one/two years have no competitive advantage over ciswomen. This is because HRT causes significant losses in bone and muscle mass and also because transwomen don't have ovaries, causing them to have less testosterone than ciswomen.

I don't know about you but I trust the word of two massive and well established sports organizations and their medical advisors more than random dudes who can't even be bothered to think about how hormones may make transwomen less muscular/athletic even though the OP's article and the last 80 fucking posts in the topic discuss this. Sorry, you're the one with reading comprehension problems and I'm the one with facts and logic on my side, looks like you've got more cause to worry about delusion.

Avatar image for hippiesanta
#87 Edited by hippiesanta (10299 posts) -

@toast_burner said:

That's no different than the stupid "gays aren't being discriminated, they have the right to marry the opposite sex just like everyone else" argument.

And how would her joining make the competition unfair? Going through HRT cancels out the genetic advantages men have over women.

because "she" is a "HE" ....... he's still as strong as other man... and it's not fair for those who are naturally female.

It's like taking steroids to win.

it's just like Oscar Pistorius who is consider cheating of using his cyborg/mechanical assist leg compete with normal athlete.

It's like using a car to compete against horse racing

Avatar image for KHAndAnime
#88 Edited by KHAndAnime (17565 posts) -

@Barbariser said:
@KHAndAnime said:

@Barbariser said:

This thread is full of stupidity and ignorance. Transwomen are women, get over it. This woman is legally female, and according to the International Olympic Committee, transwomen have no athletic advantage over ciswomen provided that they've undergone two years of hormone treatment, and this woman's been under that for eight. Crossfit has basically no grounds to stand on here.

Also, the idea that sex reassignment is somehow "traumatic" (in itself, a huge misconception) doesn't mean shit. Seriously are you fucking kidding me? It doesn't fucking matter whether she went through a life-changing experience eight years ago. it's probably pretty damn distressing for someone to be told that she can't compete as a her own sex and then being asked to compete with men who have huge physical advantages over her.

That bullshit is like saying that black people in 1950 should have been pretty happy with segregation because they'd suffered for so long under slavery. Yeah, if anyone here actually used that kind of logic, please shoot yourself in the head and increase humanity's mean IQ.

Congratulations, you compared slavery to the struggle of transexuals. Going to compare their struggle to what jews went through in the holocaust? I'm sure you think transexuals have it tougher...

When you say such things, people will be inclined to think you're nuts. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". I'm sure you'd love to bend all the rules in a transexual person's favor, as long as their feelings aren't hurt...

But whatever about every one else? Should all the women feel like shit because they get beat out by people who weren't even born as a woman? It's not like women were born with men's muscles...Perpetuation of a delusion isn't good for anyone, sorry.

Wow, did you even bother to understand anything I said? The comparison was to show that even if people have suffered great traumas in the past, doesn't mean they should be asked to ignore lesser traumas in the future. So yes I would use that counter with the holocaust, if someone was actually dumb enough to argue that Jews should never get angry/distressed at anything because they already went through an attempted genocide.

Also I already debunked that male muscle advantage nonsense in the post you just quoted; according to the IOC and the NCAA, transwomen who have been under HRT for one/two years have no competitive advantage over ciswomen. This is because HRT causes significant losses in bone and muscle mass and also because transwomen don't have ovaries, causing them to have less testosterone than ciswomen.

I don't know about you but I trust the word of two massive and well established sports organizations and their medical advisors more than random dudes who can't even be bothered to think about how hormones may make transwomen less muscular/athletic even though the OP's article and the last 80 fucking posts in the topic discuss this. Sorry, you're the one with reading comprehension problems and I'm the one with facts and logic on my side, looks like you've got more cause to worry about delusion.

lol @ comparing civil trauma to personal trauma

What if that person hasn't been on HRT for 2 years? It's obviously on a case-by-case basis this has to be decided. By your definition, that's still discrimination. What if the M2F wanted an athletic advantage in these competitions and didn't complete their treatment? That can't be tested, can it?

Also...

HRT cannot reverse bone changes that have already been established by puberty. Consequently, total height, the length of the arms, legs, hands, and feet, and the width/size of the shoulders and rib cage are all not affected by HRT. However, details of bone shape change throughout life, with bones becoming heavier and more deeply sculptured under the influence of androgens, and HRT will prevent such changes from developing any further.

And that's funny, took me only one minute to find an advantage a M-2-F would have that a woman wouldn't have: developing as a man. Shape of body is extremely important in athletic competitions.

There is too much gray area for this to be accepted on anything other than a case-by-case basis. You can side by competitions and their policies that go out of their way to be politically correct, but I'll stand by common sense and logic on this one. That's why they still discriminate too.

But guess what genius: Crossfit doesn't have the same resources as the Olympics committee. They don't have the resources to investigate if every M2F competitor has been on hormone treatment for the proper amount of time. And since hormone treatment can also be self-administered, there's no way of every really knowing if someone really went through the full treatment, is there? Sorry bro, you can try to perpetuate fantasy but that doesn't make it reality. You don't have anything on your side.

Avatar image for Barbariser
#89 Edited by Barbariser (6785 posts) -
@KHAndAnime said:

@Barbariser said:Wow, did you even bother to understand anything I said? The comparison was to show that even if people have suffered great traumas in the past, doesn't mean they should be asked to ignore lesser traumas in the future. So yes I would use that counter with the holocaust, if someone was actually dumb enough to argue that Jews should never get angry/distressed at anything because they already went through an attempted genocide.

Also I already debunked that male muscle advantage nonsense in the post you just quoted; according to the IOC and the NCAA, transwomen who have been under HRT for one/two years have no competitive advantage over ciswomen. This is because HRT causes significant losses in bone and muscle mass and also because transwomen don't have ovaries, causing them to have less testosterone than ciswomen.

I don't know about you but I trust the word of two massive and well established sports organizations and their medical advisors more than random dudes who can't even be bothered to think about how hormones may make transwomen less muscular/athletic even though the OP's article and the last 80 fucking posts in the topic discuss this. Sorry, you're the one with reading comprehension problems and I'm the one with facts and logic on my side, looks like you've got more cause to worry about delusion.

lol @ comparing civil trauma to personal trauma

What if that person hasn't been on HRT for 2 years? It's obviously on a case-by-case basis this has to be decided. By your definition, that's still discrimination. What if the M2F wanted an athletic advantage in these competitions and didn't complete their treatment? That can't be tested, can it?

Also...

HRT cannot reverse bone changes that have already been established by puberty. Consequently, total height, the length of the arms, legs, hands, and feet, and the width/size of the shoulders and rib cage are all not affected by HRT. However, details of bone shape change throughout life, with bones becoming heavier and more deeply sculptured under the influence of androgens, and HRT will prevent such changes from developing any further.

And that's funny, took me only one minute to find an advantage a M-2-F would have that a woman wouldn't have: developing as a man. Shape of body is extremely important in athletic competitions.

There is too much gray area for this to be accepted on anything other than a case-by-case basis. You can side by competitions and their policies that go out of their way to be politically correct, but I'll stand by common sense and logic on this one. That's why they still discriminate too.

But guess what genius: Crossfit doesn't have the same resources as the Olympics committee. They don't have the resources to investigate if every M2F competitor has been on hormone treatment for the proper amount of time. And since hormone treatment can also be self-administered, there's no way of every really knowing if someone really went through the full treatment, is there? Sorry bro, you can try to perpetuate fantasy but that doesn't make it reality. You don't have anything on your side.

Lol @ your point suddenly changing. And if you still wanted a "personal comparison", it's also wrong to tell a gay man to get over not being able to marry because he's already lived life under discrimination and bigotry.

If someone doesn't get HRT for over 2 years they don't qualify, I already acknowledged this last page. Fortunately we can easily observe that the girl in the OP got SRS in 2006 and has been on HRT since then, and last I checked, 8>2. As for the possibility of fraud - if you want to know whether a transgender athlete has had enough HRT, what's so hard about the sports organization just asking for medical proof?

That's nice, but to my knowledge, sports organizations do not consider artificial changes in body shape (for example, bone-lengthening surgery to acquire longer legs) as being anti-competitive, whereas they will kick you the **** out if you dope. It's not surprising that they apply the same standard (hormones are most important) to the transgender question.

If you have an issue with that, better convince the IOC and NCAA to adopt a different position and outlaw bone surgery. It hardly matters here because the athlete in the article is asking to compete in a strength competition, and those are size segregated anyway.

Ahahah no, literally everything in that last paragraph was just shit you made up. You have no idea whether a company operating 7, 200 gyms has enough resources to test transgender athletes (who are extremely small in number), and the fact that they did not make that argument themselves suggests that this is not a big consideration. Furthermore, most organizations don't have enough resources to test every doper every time everywhere either, but that doesn't stop them from using rules against roids anyway.

Lol at the accusation that the IoC is "politically correct". Yeah get over it, I'm basically right about everything here by pretty much any standard and you can go sulk in the corner with the other transphobics.

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#90 Posted by thegerg (18275 posts) -

@KHAndAnime said:

Transgenders can't expect the world to conform them. But you can't expect a transgender person to be logical, their whole lives are obviously geared towards their emotions and dealing with them. If they accepted that they aren't going to be a living a normal life anymore, they might as well accept it fully.

"Transgenders can't expect the world to conform them."

"Transgender" is an adjective, not a noun.

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#91 Posted by MrGeezer (59112 posts) -

@hippiesanta said:

@toast_burner said:

That's no different than the stupid "gays aren't being discriminated, they have the right to marry the opposite sex just like everyone else" argument.

And how would her joining make the competition unfair? Going through HRT cancels out the genetic advantages men have over women.

because "she" is a "HE" ....... he's still as strong as other man... and it's not fair for those who are naturally female.

It's like taking steroids to win.

it's just like Oscar Pistorius who is consider cheating of using his cyborg/mechanical assist leg compete with normal athlete.

It's like using a car to compete against horse racing

Okay, the way I see it, this revolves entirely around whether or not hormone therapy removes the advantage of being born a man. We've had several people showing that hormone therapy removes such an advantage, now you're basically saying "no it doesn't."

If that's the case, can you provide some evidence for your claim? Can you show us some proof that even after hormone therapy the person still retains an unfair advantage?

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#92 Posted by always_explicit (3379 posts) -

@plageus900 said:

@Santesyu said:

@always_explicit: You obviously doesn't know how to feel to be transgendered, even though I am on hormones and full time I haven't had SRS yet and havent done the legal paperwork but if I went through all of that to be denied of what I should not be that would emotional distress me to be honest.

Your inability to use proper grammar is causing me emotional distress. Get your lawyer, snowflake. I'm taking your ass to court.

You would hypothetically only be denied entry to a competition you have no entitlement to be in. Becoming a woman does not make you a female. It makes you a trangender male. A decision I fully support and I appreciate how painful it must be to be born in the wrong body. However it is unfair to enter a competition whereby your situation may give you an advantage.

If Mike Tyson went through the change (unlikely but perfectly possible)...by your logic he should be entitled to enter the ring with another female. Its just not fair competition. I dont see what is hard to understand about this.

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#93 Edited by thegerg (18275 posts) -

@ferrari2001 said:

There needs to be a sure way for these companies to decide under which sex category a person should compete. I think that the only real sure fire way to be consistent among various organizations is to separate competitors based on their genetic code. People with the genetic code of a man compete with the men and someone with a genetic code of a female compete with the female. It's really the only consistent legal way I can think of to separate people by gender.

Well the point isn't to separate people by gender, but to separate them by sex. Sex has a much greater influence on one's body and athletic ability than does gender.

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#94 Posted by Smokescreened84 (2565 posts) -

@lostrib said:

@Smokescreened84 said:

@OmegaPillow said:

@Barbariser: nope she's a man who's pretending to be a woman

No, she's a woman who's a woman, you're an idiot who's an idiot. Only you chose to be an idiot, she didn't choose to be female, she was born that way.

She's legally, and most likely physically a woman; she is genetically male.

There are cis-women who have male genetics in them and cis-males who have female genetics in them, the chromosomes and genes don't define who you are as a person, they will play a part in the development of the body. For those who are trans* those genes screw up and have them born with the wrong physical sex that doesn't match their internal gender.

A person is a lot more than their body and if someone isn't comfortable in their body then it helps them to be able to feel comfortable.

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#95 Posted by lostrib (49999 posts) -

@Smokescreened84 said:

@lostrib said:

@Smokescreened84 said:

@OmegaPillow said:

@Barbariser: nope she's a man who's pretending to be a woman

No, she's a woman who's a woman, you're an idiot who's an idiot. Only you chose to be an idiot, she didn't choose to be female, she was born that way.

She's legally, and most likely physically a woman; she is genetically male.

There are cis-women who have male genetics in them and cis-males who have female genetics in them, the chromosomes and genes don't define who you are as a person, they will play a part in the development of the body. For those who are trans* those genes screw up and have them born with the wrong physical sex that doesn't match their internal gender.

A person is a lot more than their body and if someone isn't comfortable in their body then it helps them to be able to feel comfortable.

Is there actual scientific data on this? it would be interesting to read

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#96 Posted by Master_Live (18815 posts) -

@Smokescreened84 said:

@lostrib said:

@Smokescreened84 said:

@OmegaPillow said:

@Barbariser: nope she's a man who's pretending to be a woman

No, she's a woman who's a woman, you're an idiot who's an idiot. Only you chose to be an idiot, she didn't choose to be female, she was born that way.

She's legally, and most likely physically a woman; she is genetically male.

For those who are trans* those genes screw up and have them born with the wrong physical sex that doesn't match their internal gender.

Pier reviewed scientific paper or papers please.

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#97 Posted by Perfect_Blue (29925 posts) -

@lostrib said:

@Smokescreened84 said:

@lostrib said:

@Smokescreened84 said:

@OmegaPillow said:

@Barbariser: nope she's a man who's pretending to be a woman

No, she's a woman who's a woman, you're an idiot who's an idiot. Only you chose to be an idiot, she didn't choose to be female, she was born that way.

She's legally, and most likely physically a woman; she is genetically male.

There are cis-women who have male genetics in them and cis-males who have female genetics in them, the chromosomes and genes don't define who you are as a person, they will play a part in the development of the body. For those who are trans* those genes screw up and have them born with the wrong physical sex that doesn't match their internal gender.

A person is a lot more than their body and if someone isn't comfortable in their body then it helps them to be able to feel comfortable.

Is there actual scientific data on this? it would be interesting to read

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html

Just search up Gender Identity Disorder

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#98 Posted by Master_Live (18815 posts) -
  1. Good thing you didn't quoted me since that isn't a scientific paper, let alone a pier reviewed one.
  2. You could summarize that article like this:

"They found significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter – and the female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain".

And then:

"Guillamon isn't sure whether the four regions are at all associated with notions of gender, but Ivanka Savic-Berglund at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, thinks they might be".

And that is that.

No talk about the genetic "screw up". Lets try again.

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#99 Edited by Wilfred_Owen (20964 posts) -

Fill it out and we'll get to you later.

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#100 Posted by Perfect_Blue (29925 posts) -

@Master_Live said:
  1. Good thing you didn't quoted me since that isn't a scientific paper, let alone a pier reviewed one.
  2. You could summarize that article like this:

"They found significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter – and the female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain".

And then:

"Guillamon isn't sure whether the four regions are at all associated with notions of gender, but Ivanka Savic-Berglund at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, thinks they might be".

And that is that.

No talk about the genetic "screw up". Lets try again.

Too lazy to go through peer reviewed stuff, it's no one's job to educate you but yourself but it just seems like you are being purposely difficult, as usual.

Define "screw up" for me please, because GID is exactly what Smokescreened said.