This is what I don't get about the whole **** marriage thing...

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

This just always seemed blown up to me. This is in no way even close to segregation in the sixties. We had "separate but equal" back then, but things actually weren't equal. I believe that would be a different case if gays were to fight for equal rights through civil unions. It's legal rights and benefits on paper. They're not using different water fountains.

Ontain

Actually no. Blacks usually got the short end of the stick on that deal. I don't see it happening with civil unions if the rights were fought for through them.

Things weren't actually equal because things were separate.

Theokhoth

I think that things weren't actually equal because white people hated black people.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Things weren't actually equal because things were separate.

LikeHaterade

I think that things weren't actually equal because white people hated black people.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

The intentions behind it are the same.

Just because the effects of that discrimination are not as severe and inhumane as they were with blacks doesnt mean homosexuals should settle with that thought.

LikeHaterade

I don't think the intentions are the same. Society is not accepting homosexual marriage primarily due to their religious beliefs. Not blind hate.

The cause of the discrimination is the same: people come in contact and encounter things that go against the norm they were handed in ever since they were children and that founds them unable to cope with it and adjust. That goes both for blacks and gays.

People back then where used to living in a society where blacks were the slaves that were socially lesser and now people have lived in societies where gays are thought off largely as perverted/diseased/unnatural/abnormal etc.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

The intentions behind it are the same.

Just because the effects of that discrimination are not as severe and inhumane as they were with blacks doesnt mean homosexuals should settle with that thought.

LikeHaterade

I don't think the intentions are the same. Society is not accepting homosexual marriage primarily due to their religious beliefs. Not blind hate.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Things weren't actually equal because things were separate.

LikeHaterade

I think that things weren't actually equal because white people hated black people.

Hence the "Separate." Do you honestly think there are noble roots in segregation?

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Things weren't actually equal because things were separate.

LikeHaterade

I think that things weren't actually equal because white people hated black people.

Actually no. Blacks usually got the short end of the stick on that deal. I don't see it happening with civil unions if the rights were fought for through them.

LikeHaterade

you don't see it

http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htm

but there it is.

they aren't equal. you ask the hypothetical of if they were equal what's in a name. well then i gave the hypothetical of identical fountains with only the labels being different. same thing.

And how do you know that the religious beliefs arent just a title of justification for bigotry for many of those who oppose it.

The cause of the discrimination is the same: people come in contact and encounter things that go against the norm they were handed in ever since they were children and that founds them unable to cope with it and adjust. That goes both for blacks and gays.

People back then where used to living in a society where blacks were the slaves that were socially lesser and now people have lived in societies where gays are thought off largely as perverted/diseased/unnatural/abnormal etc.

Teenaged

While obviously there are those that reject gay marriage due to their hate for homosexuals, I believe that number far outweighs those that are either morally against it or because it goes against their religion. Back then, lifestyles and views were built upon the slavery zeitgeist, causing blind hate in future generations. Over 80% of the US is Christian, and it's right there on paper for most of them. Not because they hate anybody.

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

The intentions behind it are the same.

Just because the effects of that discrimination are not as severe and inhumane as they were with blacks doesnt mean homosexuals should settle with that thought.

xaos

I don't think the intentions are the same. Society is not accepting homosexual marriage primarily due to their religious beliefs. Not blind hate.

Based on videos and documentaries I've seen on the 60's and segregation, I disagree. The hate was everywhere.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

And how do you know that the religious beliefs arent just a title of justification for bigotry for many of those who oppose it.

The cause of the discrimination is the same: people come in contact and encounter things that go against the norm they were handed in ever since they were children and that founds them unable to cope with it and adjust. That goes both for blacks and gays.

People back then where used to living in a society where blacks were the slaves that were socially lesser and now people have lived in societies where gays are thought off largely as perverted/diseased/unnatural/abnormal etc.

LikeHaterade

While obviously there are those that reject gay marriage due to their hate for homosexuals, I believe that number far outweighs those that are either morally against it or because it goes against their religion. Back then, lifestyles and views were built upon the slavery zeitgeist, causing blind hate in future generations. Over 80% of the US is Christian, and it's right there on paper for most of them. Not because they hate anybody.

Just because religion was the thing that solidified that attitude towards gays doesnt mean that it somehow "sanctifies" the objection.

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

I don't think the intentions are the same. Society is not accepting homosexual marriage primarily due to their religious beliefs. Not blind hate.

LikeHaterade

Based on videos and documentaries I've seen on the 60's and segregation, I disagree. The hate was everywhere.

You know I hate to argue/disagree with you on here B, but my only comment on this is: Was it hate, or fear that a change would change the balance of "order" whites were used to? Is this not basically the exact same thing going on now. My two cents.btaylor2404

Ha! I always take your views serious and too heart Bryan. Wasn't it peace that really changed it? I'm referring to Martin Luther King Jr. when I talk about "peace."

While obviously there are those that reject gay marriage due to their hate for homosexuals, I believe that number far outweighs those that are either morally against it or because it goes against their religion. Back then, lifestyles and views were built upon the slavery zeitgeist, causing blind hate in future generations. Over 80% of the US is Christian, and it's right there on paper for most of them. Not because they hate anybody.

LikeHaterade

i don't see why you think hate and religious beliefs are mutually exclusive. religious beliefs have been known to foster hate for ages. heck Bin Laden is using it against us today.

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

Actually no. Blacks usually got the short end of the stick on that deal. I don't see it happening with civil unions if the rights were fought for through them.

Ontain

you don't see it

http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htm

but there it is.

they aren't equal. you ask the hypothetical of if they were equal what's in a name. well then i gave the hypothetical of identical fountains with only the labels being different. same thing.

I was saying that hypothetically, if gays were to fight for equal rights through civil unions. I hear society say no to gay marriage, but not civil unions that match every right as gay marriage. I'm aware that they currently are not equal.

[QUOTE="btaylor2404"]You know I hate to argue/disagree with you on here B, but my only comment on this is: Was it hate, or fear that a change would change the balance of "order" whites were used to? Is this not basically the exact same thing going on now. My two cents.LikeHaterade

Ha! I always take your views serious and too heart Bryan. Wasn't it peace that really changed it? I'm referring to Martin Luther King Jr. when I talk about "peace."

I cant tell if they hate it but 9/10 people I have spoken to that reject homosexuality they are repulsed by it and find it disgusting. Those also are very aggressive and bigoted when expressing their views.

Just because religion was the thing that solidified that attitude towards gays doesnt mean that it somehow "sanctifies" the objection.

Teenaged

I'm not saying it sanctifies it, but it does make it different from the 60's. It doesn't make it mutually exclusive to hate either. I'm just expressing my opinion based on my personal experiences with those that are against gay marriage.

Considering civil unions DO NOT have all the same rights as a marriage the gay community has every right to be ticked and to be trying to get THEIR RIGHTS.

It is stupid to me that it hasn't just been legalized. Guess what couples? YOU RELATIONSHIP IS NOT SPECIAL! Sorry, it is the truth. Gay couples are just as capable of having good relationships as hetero couples and as a straight man myself it really angers me how freaking arrogant people get in this regard trying to act like gay relationships are below theirs.

There is NO REASON why a gay couple should go through and build a life together, only to have one of them suddenly die and then the surviving member of the couple be left with NOTHING as their union was never legally established thanks to ignorant and outdated thinking. I can't believe people think it is right to let this crap happen....

I wonder what the perspective will be like when documentaries are made on this era 40 years from now :) I don't see how it can be argued that me and my partner being in love and that being called immoral and a sin is not hateful/xaos

While many might not actually hate you that believe this, I do see your point.

I was saying that hypothetically, if gays were to fight for equal rights through civil unions. I hear society say no to gay marriage, but not civil unions that match every right as gay marriage. I'm aware that they currently are not equal.

LikeHaterade

Considering civil unions DO NOT have all the same rights as a marriage the gay community has every right to be ticked and to be trying to get THEIR RIGHTS.

It is stupid to me that it hasn't just been legalized. Guess what couples? YOU RELATIONSHIP IS NOT SPECIAL! Sorry, it is the truth. Gay couples are just as capable of having good relationships as hetero couples and as a straight man myself it really angers me how freaking arrogant people get in this regard trying to act like gay relationships are below theirs.

There is NO REASON why a gay couple should go through and build a life together, only to have one of them suddenly die and then the surviving member of the couple be left with NOTHING as their union was never legally established thanks to ignorant and outdated thinking. I can't believe people think it is right to let this crap happen....

LostProphetFLCL

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

I was saying that hypothetically, if gays were to fight for equal rights through civil unions. I hear society say no to gay marriage, but not civil unions that match every right as gay marriage. I'm aware that they currently are not equal.

spazzx625

They're different only if you make them out to be IMO.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

I cant tell if they hate it but 9/10 people I have spoken to that reject homosexuality they are repulsed by it and find it disgusting. Those also are very aggressive and bigoted when expressing their views.

Just because religion was the thing that solidified that attitude towards gays doesnt mean that it somehow "sanctifies" the objection.

LikeHaterade

I'm not saying it sanctifies it, but it does make it different from the 60's. It doesn't make it mutually exclusive to hate either. I'm just expressing my opinion based on my personal experiences with those that are against gay marriage.

Religion does nothing but express opinions humanity already has. What is actually happening is people are using the opinions of humanity that were the norm some hundred or even thousands of years ago -which opinions got a free ticket in time through religion- to justify their clingin on to those opinions even now.

Just because religion helped those opinions survive doesnt mean in any way that they are free from hate or bigotry.

And like I said before just because the consequences of the discrimination are not as severe and inhumane as they were with blacks doesnt mean that the analogy is invalid or that homosexuals should settle with that thought.

As humanity advances the standards are rising. What was considered cruel back then now is considered monstrous, what was considered just bad back then, now is considered cruel, what was considered not a big deal back then now is a big deal etc.

[QUOTE="spazzx625"][QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

I was saying that hypothetically, if gays were to fight for equal rights through civil unions. I hear society say no to gay marriage, but not civil unions that match every right as gay marriage. I'm aware that they currently are not equal.

LikeHaterade

They're different only if you make them out to be IMO.

I think 'marriage' and 'civil unionship' mean the same thing, so to me they are the same.get-ka12

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

[QUOTE="spazzx625"] Domestic partnership != civil union != marriage They are not all synonyms for the same thing, they are all different. Also, concerning homosexual relationships, not all of those are supported legally in many states.spazzx625

They're different only if you make them out to be IMO.

[QUOTE="LostProphetFLCL"]

Considering civil unions DO NOT have all the same rights as a marriage the gay community has every right to be ticked and to be trying to get THEIR RIGHTS.

It is stupid to me that it hasn't just been legalized. Guess what couples? YOU RELATIONSHIP IS NOT SPECIAL! Sorry, it is the truth. Gay couples are just as capable of having good relationships as hetero couples and as a straight man myself it really angers me how freaking arrogant people get in this regard trying to act like gay relationships are below theirs.

There is NO REASON why a gay couple should go through and build a life together, only to have one of them suddenly die and then the surviving member of the couple be left with NOTHING as their union was never legally established thanks to ignorant and outdated thinking. I can't believe people think it is right to let this crap happen....

Vandalvideo

OK and at a point in history a majority did not want women or minorities to have rights.

This is a case where our justice system is suppossed to grow a pair of balls and pass legislation to fix this lack of equality. This is why we have such checks and balances set into our government.

[QUOTE="get-ka12"]I think 'marriage' and 'civil unionship' mean the same thing, so to me they are the same.Teenaged

Because marriage is a religious thing, and most religions don't recognize marriage as something between a man and a man or a woman and a woman.

It's not a marriage, a marriage is between a man and a woman. You should just be happy with it being called civil union.

Let the law happen, the legalization of civil unions, THEN protest to change the name from "civil union" to "marriage."

Some people want too much at once.

[QUOTE="get-ka12"]I think 'marriage' and 'civil unionship' mean the same thing, so to me they are the same.Teenaged

OK and at a point in history a majority did not want women or minorities to have rights.This is a case where our justice system is suppossed to grow a pair of balls and pass legislation to fix this lack of equality. This is why we have such checks and balances set into our government.LostProphetFLCL

[QUOTE="spazzx625"]It's all about equality. "Civil union" sounds so sterile and forced to me. LJS9502_basic

The basic outlining I did though stands. That is the reason that fuels this intolerance.

Religion does nothing but express opinions humanity already has. What is actually happening is people are using the opinions of humanity that were the norm some hundred or even thousands of years ago -which opinions got a free ticket in time through religion- to justify their clingin on to those opinions even now.

Just because religion helped those opinions survive doesnt mean in any way that they are free from hate or bigotry.

And like I said before just because the consequences of the discrimination are not as severe and inhumane as they were with blacks doesnt mean that the analogy is invalid or that homosexuals should settle with that thought.

As humanity advances the standards are rising. What was considered cruel back then now is considered monstrous, what was considered just bad back then, now is considered cruel, what was considered not a big deal back then now is a big deal etc.

Teenaged

You're speaking on religion as if it's beliefs consist in only a book and it's all just words. Millions attest to their lives being changed, and religion helping them with problems in their lives. Those that are against it due to their religious beliefs doesn't mean they hate homosexuals. You're generalizing every religious person. The concept "separate but equal" didn't even apply them. That entire concept has never even existed, and I can see why seeing as how whites hated blacks back then, which is different in terms of gay marriage now.

Anyways, I enjoyed our discussion you guys but I have to go to work now. If this thread is still up when I get home, then we can talk about it some more. Otherwise, I probably would have forgotten about it eight hours from now. Ya'll have a good day. =p

[QUOTE="LostProphetFLCL"]OK and at a point in history a majority did not want women or minorities to have rights.This is a case where our justice system is suppossed to grow a pair of balls and pass legislation to fix this lack of equality. This is why we have such checks and balances set into our government.Vandalvideo

Pragmatically speaking, the equal protection clause will never be used.Vandalvideo

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Pragmatically speaking, the equal protection clause will never be used.xaos

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Pragmatically speaking, the equal protection clause will never be used.xaos

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Pragmatically speaking, the equal protection clause will never be used.Vandalvideo

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="get-ka12"]I think 'marriage' and 'civil unionship' mean the same thing, so to me they are the same.get-ka12

Because marriage is a religious thing, and most religions don't recognize marriage as something between a man and a man or a woman and a woman.

It's not a marriage, a marriage is between a man and a woman. You should just be happy with it being called civil union.

Let the law happen, the legalization of civil unions, THEN protest to change the name from "civil union" to "marriage."

Some people want too much at once.

Is marriage the same as a civil union or not?

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

The basic outlining I did though stands. That is the reason that fuels this intolerance.

Religion does nothing but express opinions humanity already has. What is actually happening is people are using the opinions of humanity that were the norm some hundred or even thousands of years ago -which opinions got a free ticket in time through religion- to justify their clingin on to those opinions even now.

Just because religion helped those opinions survive doesnt mean in any way that they are free from hate or bigotry.

And like I said before just because the consequences of the discrimination are not as severe and inhumane as they were with blacks doesnt mean that the analogy is invalid or that homosexuals should settle with that thought.

As humanity advances the standards are rising. What was considered cruel back then now is considered monstrous, what was considered just bad back then, now is considered cruel, what was considered not a big deal back then now is a big deal etc.

LikeHaterade

You're speaking on religion as if it's beliefs consist in only a book and it's all just words. Millions attest to their lives being changed, and religion helping them with problems in their lives. Those that are against it due to their religious beliefs doesn't mean they hate homosexuals. You're generalizing every religious person. The concept "separate but equal" didn't even apply them. That entire concept has never even existed, and I can see why seeing as how whites hated blacks back then, which is different in terms of gay marriage now.

Anyways, I enjoyed our discussion you guys but I have to go to work now. If this thread is still up when I get home, then we can talk about it some more. Otherwise, I probably would have forgotten about it eight hours from now. Ya'll have a good day. =p

Back then a person that thought of blacks as lesser beings could easily claim that he doesnt hate them. Even if he didnt hate them, his belief that they are lesser gives birth to discriminatory laws.

But today do we dare even accept a person that thinks of blacks as lesser beings even though he may not hate them? Of course not.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="spazzx625"]It's all about equality. "Civil union" sounds so sterile and forced to me. horgen123

[QUOTE="btaylor2404"]You know I hate to argue/disagree with you on here B, but my only comment on this is: Was it hate, or fear that a change would change the balance of "order" whites were used to? Is this not basically the exact same thing going on now. My two cents.LikeHaterade

Ha! I always take your views serious and too heart Bryan. Wasn't it peace that really changed it? I'm referring to Martin Luther King Jr. when I talk about "peace."

I used to be totally against gay marriage. Now I really don't give a crap, and I'm honestly not bothered about the outcome of the whole debate.

However, the way I see it is:

1. Gay people want to get married.

2. Religious people don't want Gay people to marry, because they don't want to see an institution, that holds a high degree of religious significance, 'hijacked'.

We then address why Gay people might want to marry:

1. It's a platform to express eternal love for a chosen partner bla bla bla.

2. Marriage offers some legal benefits and convenience that they wish to be entitled to.

Religious people's response is:

1. Take 'Civil Unionships', because they offer a platform to express eternal love for a chosen partner bla bla bla.

2. And it offers the same legal benefits and convenience that Gay people wish to be entitled to.

Gay people aren't happy with this option.

Now, I'm not arguing that I think Gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry. I just want to know what arguments there are for preferring 'marriage' over 'civil unionships'.

If marriage did not exist, and instead, 'civil unionships' were the norm, would gay people be satisfied if people offered 'marriage' as an alternative?

Stumpt25

Civil Unions aren't federally recognized and do not offer all of the benefits of marriage. So no, it's not good enough. That and the whole "separate but equal" thing has a history of not working all that well in this country.

I think everyone should be able to marry whoever or whatever they want... if a man wants to marry a pig then he should have a right tooCyleM