The destruction of my Christian Faith

[QUOTE="supa_badman"][QUOTE="chrisrooR"] I'm fine with that, and I must say that Catholics such as yourself are few and far between (in my own experience with them). All I'm pointing out is that IN SCRIPTURE, precisely in the quoted scripture in the OP, it is said that God will reject those who reject Christianity, no matter what good that person does on Earth. I find this troubling.... chrisrooR

I agree, this can be interpreted in many differing ways. However, the way I read it is as if it's an ultimatum posed by God. Basically "If you don't accept Christianity, you're going to hell. Period."

That's one thing I don't really get. If it was a mistranslation, then I'm than sure that a couple of Vatican scholars would have caught it and probably done something about it, because I don't believe in the whole 'Eternal Hell is actually a scare tactic' thing.

For one, it would be a flaw about the idea of God. Pantheism essentially states that God's ever-loving goodness over-flows him and it's a bit out of his control. God can't have something 'out of his control' if he's perfect and just. If it overcomes him, then it means God is flawed and he isn't perfect, then that cancels out the most basic idea of God.

supa_badman

If it wasn't a mistranslation, then why was the rise in the belief of eternal hell completely coincident with the rise in the usage of the Latin translation of the Bible due to the coercion of the early Church?

I don't see how "eternal punishment" being a mistranslation is a flaw about the idea of God...

[QUOTE="lordreaven"]

Well, you could always join me and believe in Zeus:D

Odin>Zeus:twisted:

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"]

[QUOTE="supa_badman"] I've yet to read a point where a scripture says 'No matter what good that person does.' The Good Samaritan parable tells a completely different story.supa_badman

I agree, this can be interpreted in many differing ways. However, the way I read it is as if it's an ultimatum posed by God. Basically "If you don't accept Christianity, you're going to hell. Period."

But nowhere in the parable does it explain that the Samaritan was to receive eternal salvation for his deed. chrisrooR

A guy asks what he should do to attain life. Jesus gives him that as the answer. That seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[QUOTE="supa_badman"]

That's one thing I don't really get. If it was a mistranslation, then I'm than sure that a couple of Vatican scholars would have caught it and probably done something about it, because I don't believe in the whole 'Eternal Hell is actually a scare tactic' thing.

For one, it would be a flaw about the idea of God. Pantheism essentially states that God's ever-loving goodness over-flows him and it's a bit out of his control. God can't have something 'out of his control' if he's perfect and just. If it overcomes him, then it means God is flawed and he isn't perfect, then that cancels out the most basic idea of God.

GabuEx

If it wasn't a mistranslation, then why was the rise in the belief of eternal hell completely coincident with the rise in the usage of the Latin translation of the Bible due to the coercion of the early Church?

I don't see how "eternal punishment" being a mistranslation is a flaw about the idea of God...

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"]But nowhere in the parable does it explain that the Samaritan was to receive eternal salvation for his deed. GabuEx

A guy asks what he should do to attain life. Jesus gives him that as the answer. That seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"]But nowhere in the parable does it explain that the Samaritan was to receive eternal salvation for his deed. GabuEx

A guy asks what he should do to attain life. Jesus gives him that as the answer. That seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"]But nowhere in the parable does it explain that the Samaritan was to receive eternal salvation for his deed. GabuEx

A guy asks what he should do to attain life. Jesus gives him that as the answer. That seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"]But nowhere in the parable does it explain that the Samaritan was to receive eternal salvation for his deed. JJ_Productions

A guy asks what he should do to attain life. Jesus gives him that as the answer. That seems pretty clear-cut to me.

EDIT: It's all right here.

My guess would be as good as yours, but I wonder if the Orthodox church have the same idea about the eternal hell, because Greek was the first translation, I believe, and the Orthodox church are pretty conservative as far as Christian tradition goes. A finite punishment wouldn't make sense as if those who originally didn't want anything to do with God and the ones who didn't uphold the commandments all of sudden, after an amount of time after the Final Judgement go to be with God and spend eternity with him, which is also the biggest 'perk' of Heaven. What I'm saying is that God is perfect and he is just. It's what what has been universally taught. If his goodness surpasses him and he can't control it, then it's a flaw. If he is flawed, he is not perfect and it contradicts the basic idea of God. Your 'Hell can't be eternal' idea goes along with the idea of Pantheism and Pantheism is a misunderstanding of the concept of God. It's why I brought it up.supa_badman

But there are a couple of things to bring up here:

1. The Greek word translated into "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 is kolasis, which unequivocally means "corrective punishment", that is, punishment whose goal is the betterment of the one receiving it. It's the type of punishment that a parent gives to their child, in the hopes that they will learn from it and become a better person from it. There is another word that means "vengeful punishment", which is timoria, but this word is most certainly not used in the Bible to describe that which sinners receive.For this kolasis to be eternal, one would have to necessarily suppose that God will ultimately fail in this punishment, as obviously the person receiving it will not have been improved.

2. It is said that at the very end, death will be abolished, and God will be all in all. How can this be the case if there are people still left languishing in hell for all eternity?

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"]But nowhere in the parable does it explain that the Samaritan was to receive eternal salvation for his deed. JJ_Productions

A guy asks what he should do to attain life. Jesus gives him that as the answer. That seems pretty clear-cut to me.

For your benefit, I will quote for you the full passage here:

"On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. 'Teacher,' he asked, 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?'

"'What is written in the Law?' he replied. 'How do you read it?'

"He answered: ' 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' '

"'You have answered correctly,' Jesus replied. 'Do this and you will live.'

(Luke 10:25-28, emph. added)

And then follows the parable of the Good Samaritan, illustrating someone who does that.

"Do this and you will live" seems awfully clear-cut to me... but I suppose I don't read my Bible, so I wouldn't know.

[QUOTE="JJ_Productions"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

A guy asks what he should do to attain life. Jesus gives him that as the answer. That seems pretty clear-cut to me.

supa_badman

its amazing that of all the life on earth only humans believe in a god that we have never seen, heard ,smelled touched or saw. when you die you die end of story. do you really want to live for ever.:roll:

Yet another person who doesn't read thier bible. A Rich man asked Jesus what he should do to gain eternal life, and Jesus replied that he most follow all of Gods commandments, to which to rich man said, I have followed all of his commandments since my youth, to which Jesus replied, you most sell all of your riches and help the poor and needy, to which the rich man went away heavy hearted, because he had owned alot

JJ_Productions

Uh, no, that's a completely different passage in the Bible. There is more than one instance on which Jesus was asked that question.

But, again, I suppose I don't read my Bible, so... :P

[QUOTE="JJ_Productions"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

A guy asks what he should do to attain life. Jesus gives him that as the answer. That seems pretty clear-cut to me.

GabuEx

For your benefit, I will quote for you the full passage here:

"On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. 'Teacher,' he asked, 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?'

"'What is written in the Law?' he replied. 'How do you read it?'

"He answered: ' 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' '

"'You have answered correctly,' Jesus replied. 'Do this and you will live.'

(Luke 10:25-28, emph. added)

And then follows the parable of the Good Samaritan, illustrating someone who does that.

"Do this and you will live" seems awfully clear-cut to me... but I suppose I don't read my Bible, so I wouldn't know.

And if the man was to reject god?

(For the record, I'm not trying to stir up peoples emotions, I'm actually really enjoying this conversation :P. I even just had my dad explain to me the whole good samaritan story, and it's lessons, to me just now)

And if the man was to reject god?

chrisrooR

Well, the obvious question is this: how do we love God? Do we just say "yeah, God, you're pretty awesome", and that shows that we love God?

I say no, and the reason why is illustrated likewise:

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'" (Matthew 25:34-40)

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." (John 14:21)

"The man who says, 'I know (Jesus),' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.But if anyone obeys his word, God's loveis truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. ....Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in himto make him stumble.But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him." (1 John 2:3-6,9-11)

God already has everything he needs. We can't give him anything. But we can give his creation something. I find it interesting to note that when someone asks Jesus what commandment - singular, notice - is the greatest, he replies with what appear to be two. I have come to understand this as that the "second" is simply an explanation of how one may accomplish the first. We love God by loving our neighbor. The two are inseparable. We cannot see God or interact at will with God, so we may misunderstand God, but we may certainly see and interact with our neighbor, and it is through that interaction that our heart may be known.

Jesus is giving the example of the good Samaritan to describe as to who your neighbor is, nowhere does it say that the good Samaritan will receive eternal life because of his deed. And the fact is, since the good Samaritan is my neighbor, I will share with him the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which he will gladly accept since he already has compassion in his heart JJ_Productions

Do you not see the part where Jesus says "do this and you will live" immediately before presenting the parable as an example of what one should do in order to live?

I mean, I don't read my Bible, so I don't know, but that seems awfully straightforward...

its amazing that of all the life on earth only humans believe in a god that we have never seen, heard ,smelled touched or saw. when you die you die end of story. do you really want to live for ever.:roll:

larryb007

Jesus is giving the example of the good Samaritan to describe as to who your neighbor is, nowhere does it say that the good Samaritan will receive eternal life because of his deed. And the fact is, since the good Samaritan is my neighbor, I will share with him the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which he will gladly accept since he already has compassion in his heart JJ_Productions

[QUOTE="supa_badman"]My guess would be as good as yours, but I wonder if the Orthodox church have the same idea about the eternal hell, because Greek was the first translation, I believe, and the Orthodox church are pretty conservative as far as Christian tradition goes. A finite punishment wouldn't make sense as if those who originally didn't want anything to do with God and the ones who didn't uphold the commandments all of sudden, after an amount of time after the Final Judgement go to be with God and spend eternity with him, which is also the biggest 'perk' of Heaven. What I'm saying is that God is perfect and he is just. It's what what has been universally taught. If his goodness surpasses him and he can't control it, then it's a flaw. If he is flawed, he is not perfect and it contradicts the basic idea of God. Your 'Hell can't be eternal' idea goes along with the idea of Pantheism and Pantheism is a misunderstanding of the concept of God. It's why I brought it up.GabuEx

But there are a couple of things to bring up here:

1. The Greek word translated into "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 is kolasis, which unequivocally means "corrective punishment", that is, punishment whose goal is the betterment of the one receiving it. It's the type of punishment that a parent gives to their child, in the hopes that they will learn from it and become a better person from it. There is another word that means "vengeful punishment", which is timoria, but this word is most certainly not used in the Bible to describe that which sinners receive.For this kolasis to be eternal, one would have to necessarily suppose that God will ultimately fail in this punishment, as obviously the person receiving it will not have been improved.

2. It is said that at the very end, death will be abolished, and God will be all in all. How can this be the case if there are people still left languishing in hell for all eternity?

[QUOTE="JJ_Productions"]Jesus is giving the example of the good Samaritan to describe as to who your neighbor is, nowhere does it say that the good Samaritan will receive eternal life because of his deed. And the fact is, since the good Samaritan is my neighbor, I will share with him the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which he will gladly accept since he already has compassion in his heart GabuEx

Do you not see the part where Jesus says "do this and you will live" immediately before presenting the parable as an example of what one should do in order to live?

I mean, I don't read my Bible, so I don't know, but that seems awfully straightforward...

[QUOTE="larryb007"]

its amazing that of all the life on earth only humans believe in a god that we have never seen, heard ,smelled touched or saw. when you die you die end of story. do you really want to live for ever.:roll:

joao_22990

[QUOTE="supa_badman"][QUOTE="JJ_Productions"] Another person who doesn't read their bible, someone asked Jesus who is our neighbor, and he explained the parable of the priest walking by a beaten man, and then a Levite, and then the Samaritan, who is the only man who helped the beaten man. And he said, that is your neighbor,JJ_Productions

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"]

And if the man was to reject god?

GabuEx

Well, the obvious question is this: how do we love God? Do we just say "yeah, God, you're pretty awesome", and that shows that we love God?

I say no, and the reason why is illustrated likewise:

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'" (Matthew 25:34-40)

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." (John 14:21)

"The man who says, 'I know (Jesus),' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.But if anyone obeys his word, God's loveis truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. ....Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in himto make him stumble.But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him." (1 John 2:3-6,9-11)

God already has everything he needs. We can't give him anything. But we can give his creation something. I find it interesting to note that when someone asks Jesus what commandment - singular, notice - is the greatest, he replies with what appear to be two. I have come to understand this as that the "second" is simply an explanation of how one may accomplish the first. We love God by loving our neighbor. The two are inseparable. We cannot see God or interact at will with God, so we may misunderstand God, but we may certainly see and interact with our neighbor, and it is through that interaction that our heart may be known.

[QUOTE="JJ_Productions"]Jesus is giving the example of the good Samaritan to describe as to who your neighbor is, nowhere does it say that the good Samaritan will receive eternal life because of his deed. And the fact is, since the good Samaritan is my neighbor, I will share with him the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which he will gladly accept since he already has compassion in his heart chrisrooR

The word Kolasis is also usually supported by Aion or Aionosis, which, apparently, used in the context of many things in the bible is 'eternal' or 'eternity'. I've also read that it means 'Age' and 'Age' is very long time. What it seems to me is that it's a 'pick your translation'. They're both used in the same type of context so I remain unconvinced that Hell is not eternal. If Hell isn't eternal, then it would most likely work the other way, and that causes more problems within the doctrine. I believe if people are still in Hell, it's because they did it themselves, and the eternity goes with my above point I suppose. =\supa_badman

I think the word you're looking for is aionios, which yes, is present in Matthew 25:46, but forget about that word for just a moment. It is undeniable that kolasisrefers to corrective punishment. How can a corrective punishment be eternal? It doesn't make any sense. Kolasisshould influence one's interpretation of aionios, not the other way around.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="JJ_Productions"]Jesus is giving the example of the good Samaritan to describe as to who your neighbor is, nowhere does it say that the good Samaritan will receive eternal life because of his deed. And the fact is, since the good Samaritan is my neighbor, I will share with him the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which he will gladly accept since he already has compassion in his heart JJ_Productions

Do you not see the part where Jesus says "do this and you will live" immediately before presenting the parable as an example of what one should do in order to live?

I mean, I don't read my Bible, so I don't know, but that seems awfully straightforward...

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="JJ_Productions"]Jesus is giving the example of the good Samaritan to describe as to who your neighbor is, nowhere does it say that the good Samaritan will receive eternal life because of his deed. And the fact is, since the good Samaritan is my neighbor, I will share with him the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which he will gladly accept since he already has compassion in his heart JJ_Productions

Do you not see the part where Jesus says "do this and you will live" immediately before presenting the parable as an example of what one should do in order to live?

I mean, I don't read my Bible, so I don't know, but that seems awfully straightforward...

Do you disagree that the Good Samaritan clearly loved his neighbor?

So if I love my neighbor, but I refute the existence of God, I'm unknowingly loving God? (assuming the two, indeed, are inseperable). Hmmm, interesting thought, thanks for the clarification Gabu :)chrisrooR

I would say the answer would be yes. I mean, really, if you're an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being who loves his creation very much, what do you think would be more important to you: the extent to which someone gives you lip service, or the extent to which someone loves your the creation which you love?

I grew up Catholic, and what I was told is that (the Magisterium or whatever makes up all this) if you live a good life but are an Atheist or never heard of God, you can go to Heaven. Rheiken

[QUOTE="JJ_Productions"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Do you not see the part where Jesus says "do this and you will live" immediately before presenting the parable as an example of what one should do in order to live?

I mean, I don't read my Bible, so I don't know, but that seems awfully straightforward...

GabuEx

Do you disagree that the Good Samaritan clearly loved his neighbor?

[QUOTE="supa_badman"]The word Kolasis is also usually supported by Aion or Aionosis, which, apparently, used in the context of many things in the bible is 'eternal' or 'eternity'. I've also read that it means 'Age' and 'Age' is very long time. What it seems to me is that it's a 'pick your translation'. They're both used in the same type of context so I remain unconvinced that Hell is not eternal. If Hell isn't eternal, then it would most likely work the other way, and that causes more problems within the doctrine. I believe if people are still in Hell, it's because they did it themselves, and the eternity goes with my above point I suppose. =\GabuEx

I think the word you're looking for is aionios, which yes, is present in Matthew 25:46, but forget about that word for just a moment. It is undeniable that kolasisrefers to corrective punishment. How can a corrective punishment be eternal?

But also for me, as a Catholic, believe in Purgatory, and that is more of a corrective punishment than Hell would ever be.

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"]So if I love my neighbor, but I refute the existence of God, I'm unknowingly loving God? (assuming the two, indeed, are inseperable). Hmmm, interesting thought, thanks for the clarification Gabu :)GabuEx

I would say the answer would be yes. I mean, really, if you're an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being who loves his creation very much, what do you think would be more important to you: the extent to which someone gives you lip service, or the extent to which someone loves your the creation which you love?

Its not about that, someone stated above that good deeds should get you into heaven which is clearly what the scriptures don't say, it says love God with all your heart AND love your neighbor as you would love yourself. If you truly love God you will keep his commandments, and if you love your neighbor you would treat them as you would treat yourself. JJ_Productions

And what do we know about his commandments? That they may be summarized as "in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you". (Matthew 7:12)

You are making things far more complicated than they need to be.

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"]So if I love my neighbor, but I refute the existence of God, I'm unknowingly loving God? (assuming the two, indeed, are inseperable). Hmmm, interesting thought, thanks for the clarification Gabu :)GabuEx

I would say the answer would be yes. I mean, really, if you're an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being who loves his creation very much, what do you think would be more important to you: the extent to which someone gives you lip service, or the extent to which someone loves your the creation which you love?

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"]So if I love my neighbor, but I refute the existence of God, I'm unknowingly loving God? (assuming the two, indeed, are inseperable). Hmmm, interesting thought, thanks for the clarification Gabu :)GabuEx

I would say the answer would be yes. I mean, really, if you're an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being who loves his creation very much, what do you think would be more important to you: the extent to which someone gives you lip service, or the extent to which someone loves your the creation which you love?

I suppose in the exact same sense that a life sentence in jail is corrective.Jail is a rehabilitation and a corrective facility, yet it can extend to a life sentence in jail. =\

But also for me, as a Catholic, believe in Purgatory, and that is more of a corrective punishment than Hell would ever be.

supa_badman

If it was intended as a corrective punishment, then you would agree that it failed in its attempt at correction, no?

Interesting... wasn't that the whole thing about the pharisees and how they gave nothing BUT lip service to God? And if you're omnipotent, I would imagine loving the creation would equate to loving God.chrisrooR

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"] Interesting... wasn't that the whole thing about the pharisees and how they gave nothing BUT lip service to God? And if you're omnipotent, I would imagine loving the creation would equate to loving God.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"]So if I love my neighbor, but I refute the existence of God, I'm unknowingly loving God? (assuming the two, indeed, are inseperable). Hmmm, interesting thought, thanks for the clarification Gabu :)JJ_Productions

I would say the answer would be yes. I mean, really, if you're an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being who loves his creation very much, what do you think would be more important to you: the extent to which someone gives you lip service, or the extent to which someone loves your the creation which you love?

[QUOTE="JJ_Productions"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I would say the answer would be yes. I mean, really, if you're an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being who loves his creation very much, what do you think would be more important to you: the extent to which someone gives you lip service, or the extent to which someone loves your the creation which you love?

chrisrooR

[QUOTE="JJ_Productions"]Its not about that, someone stated above that good deeds should get you into heaven which is clearly what the scriptures don't say, it says love God with all your heart AND love your neighbor as you would love yourself. If you truly love God you will keep his commandments, and if you love your neighbor you would treat them as you would treat yourself. GabuEx

And what do we know about his commandments? That they may be summarized as "in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you". (Matthew 7:12)

You are making things far more complicated than they need to be.

[QUOTE="supa_badman"]

I suppose in the exact same sense that a life sentence in jail is corrective.Jail is a rehabilitation and a corrective facility, yet it can extend to a life sentence in jail. =\

But also for me, as a Catholic, believe in Purgatory, and that is more of a corrective punishment than Hell would ever be.

GabuEx

If it was intended as a corrective punishment, then you would agree that it failed in its attempt at correction, no?