The destruction of my Christian Faith

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This topic is about my agnostic views. For years I have been trying to follow Christianity, I grew up aChristian and attendedCatholic schools, but my recently I've been having issues with this religion. I have certain points that I would like to share and perhaps discuss that prevent me from believing in a Christian God. Here is one for today:

1.The apostle John wrote:"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (John 3:16–18, NIV)

I'm using this quote from John because I wanted to discuss the Christian belief that, if we do not believe in Jesus, we are condemned. This belief for me is an issue. An example:

A humanitarian who help people's lives get back on track. She helps drug addicts get clean, she gives homeless people homes to live in, and helps them get jobs and their kids back. Her office is littered with letters that are stained with tears from grown men thanking her for her kindness and help. She has lives a very selfless life. She is a buddhist.

She does not believe in Jesus, she does not "pray" for people. She helps people 'physically'. Christians who know her may love her and praise her. All I have to say to those Christians is this: "Do you realise, that according to your God, she is going to burn in hell for all eternity? How will Heaven be? Knowing that she is burning in hell at this very moment, and you to be fair, may have done nothing to make this world a better place, will go to Heaven? Is this the kind of God that shows Love?

A God who is supposed to have infinite love, condemns this women to burn in hell for eternity with rapists and murderers.

"Dear friends, let us love one another for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:7–8, NIV)

God gives us free will and would want us to follow the 'Golden rule'(show love etc.) or else be condemned to Hell for eternity. This woman has shown great love for people, through her behaviours. Yet because of her beliefs she is going to burn in hell for eternity. I refuse to believe this.

2. Christianity has taught me that God has given us free will to choose to go to Heaven or Hell. Through believing in Christ our Saviour or not. To control one's behaviour that shows love and fairness. There is one thing that I have an issue with:

it would seem that I can control my behaviors, but not my beliefs.

As an agnostic who does not believe in the Christian religion, according to the Bible, I am destined to burn in Hell for eternity. I have never murdered anyone but I'm being sent to hell because Icannot believe in their God, if I were to die tommorow, I would be sent to hell. How can I follow a religion if I am not sure if it is the true way. I cannot control this.

I am being punished for that which I cannot control.

Christians may argue that I do in fact have control of my beliefs and I am not trying hard enough to believe. Wrong. I'm at a point now that trying to convince me that the Christian God exists through texts of the Bible and other biblical sources, would be like trying to convince me the world is flat.

I feel I'm at a point of no return, is it my fault that my beliefs do not allow me to believe the world is flat? What if I try to convince you your desk is omnipotent, you would never believe me.

I cannot simply make the choice to believe the world is flat, nor can you choose to believe your desk is omnipotent.

So again according to Christian beliefs, I am going to be sent to hell for something I cannot control. So much for infinite love.

I have many more different points, but these are the most pressing to me at this moment. Lets try to have a civil discussion.

Well, you could always join me and believe in Zeus:D

Can I get the short form of this?Dylan_11

Can I get the short form of this?Dylan_11

What if I try to convince you your desk is omnipotent, you would never believe me.OneShot112

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"]Can I get the short form of this?JustPlainLucas

How was I being disrespectful? Dylan_11

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"]Can I get the short form of this?OneShot112

Can I get the short form of this?Dylan_11

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"]Can I get the short form of this?OneShot112

You know, that title would make an awesome band name.

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"]How was I being disrespectful? JustPlainLucas

You make some very good points. Those were some of my reason for becoming agnostic.

God gives us free will and would want us to follow the 'Golden rule'(show love etc.) or else be condemned to Hell for eternity. This woman has shown great love for people, through her behaviours. Yet because of her beliefs she is going to burn in hell for eternity. I refuse to believe this.

Then don't. There's nothing in the Nicene Creed about Hell. Lots of Christians don't believe in Hell and lots more believe Hell is different from fire and brimstone.

2. Christianity has taught me that God has given us free will to choose to go to Heaven or Hell. Through believing in Christ our Saviour or not. To control one's behaviour that shows love and fairness. There is one thing that I have an issue with:

it would seem that I can control my behaviors, but not my beliefs.

As an agnostic who does not believe in the Christian religion, according to the Bible, I am destined to burn in Hell for eternity. I have never murdered anyone but I'm being sent to hell because Icannot believe in their God, if I were to die tommorow, I would be sent to hell. How can I follow a religion if I am not sure if it is the true way. I cannot control this.

I am being punished for that which I cannot control.

Christians may argue that I do in fact have control of my beliefs and I am not trying hard enough to believe. Wrong. I'm at a point now that trying to convince me that the Christian God exists through texts of the Bible and other biblical sources, would be like trying to convince me the world is flat.

I feel I'm at a point of no return, is it my fault that my beliefs do not allow me to believe the world is flat? What if I try to convince you your desk is omnipotent, you would never believe me.

I cannot simply make the choice to believe the world is flat, nor can you choose to believe your desk is omnipotent.

So again according to Christian beliefs, I am going to be sent to hell for something I cannot control. So much for infinite love.

I have many more different points, but these are the most pressing to me at this moment. Lets try to have a civil discussion.

OneShot112

You are using the word "cannot" in a way that implies that it is physically impossible to do ("I cannot lift seven thousand pounds on my back") when that simply is not how it is here. I CAN believe my desk is omnipotent. There is nothing stopping me from doing so if I want; but I don't. I CAN believe the Earth is flat, and, indeed, there are some people who actually do. But I don't want to.

[QUOTE="OneShot112"]What if I try to convince you your desk is omnipotent, you would never believe me.markop2003

That reminded me of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzjcfTPyw9M

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"]Can I get the short form of this?OneShot112

1.The apostle John wrote:"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (John 3:16–18, NIV)

I'm using this quote from John because I wanted to discuss the Christian belief that, if we do not believe in Jesus, we are condemned. This belief for me is an issue. An example:

A humanitarian who help people's lives get back on track. She helps drug addicts get clean, she gives homeless people homes to live in, and helps them get jobs and their kids back. Her office is littered with letters that are stained with tears from grown men thanking her for her kindness and help. She has lives a very selfless life. She is a buddhist.

She does not believe in Jesus, she does not "pray" for people. She helps people 'physically'. Christians who know her may love her and praise her. All I have to say to those Christians is this: "Do you realise, that according to your God, she is going to burn in hell for all eternity? How will Heaven be? Knowing that she is burning in hell at this very moment, and you to be fair, may have done nothing to make this world a better place, will go to Heaven? Is this the kind of God that shows Love?

A God who is supposed to have infinite love, condemns this women to burn in hell for eternity with rapists and murderers.

"Dear friends, let us love one another for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:7–8, NIV)

God gives us free will and would want us to follow the 'Golden rule'(show love etc.) or else be condemned to Hell for eternity. This woman has shown great love for people, through her behaviours. Yet because of her beliefs she is going to burn in hell for eternity. I refuse to believe this.

2. Christianity has taught me that God has given us free will to choose to go to Heaven or Hell. Through believing in Christ our Saviour or not. To control one's behaviour that shows love and fairness. There is one thing that I have an issue with:

it would seem that I can control my behaviors, but not my beliefs.

As an agnostic who does not believe in the Christian religion, according to the Bible, I am destined to burn in Hell for eternity. I have never murdered anyone but I'm being sent to hell because Icannot believe in their God, if I were to die tommorow, I would be sent to hell. How can I follow a religion if I am not sure if it is the true way. I cannot control this.

I am being punished for that which I cannot control.

Christians may argue that I do in fact have control of my beliefs and I am not trying hard enough to believe. Wrong. I'm at a point now that trying to convince me that the Christian God exists through texts of the Bible and other biblical sources, would be like trying to convince me the world is flat.

I feel I'm at a point of no return, is it my fault that my beliefs do not allow me to believe the world is flat? What if I try to convince you your desk is omnipotent, you would never believe me.

I cannot simply make the choice to believe the world is flat, nor can you choose to believe your desk is omnipotent.

So again according to Christian beliefs, I am going to be sent to hell for something I cannot control. So much for infinite love.

I have many more different points, but these are the most pressing to me at this moment. Lets try to have a civil discussion.

OneShot112

1. If you don't know what is wrong/right, it is not a sin, therefore you do not go to hell. Many people say that finding Jesus doesn't have to be following the Christian faith, but following his teachings and living a good life.

2. This question is just very confusing, but I think I understand, and it really kind of comes back to the answer to #1.I see it sort of like if someone (your thoughts) holds you at gun point and tells you to go rob a bank (quit believing in Jesus). You have no control over the situation so again, it is not considered a sin and you will not suffer.

You know, that title would make an awesome band name.

Legendaryscmt

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"]Can I get the short form of this?OneShot112

I happen to be watching Jesus Camp. If you need your faith to be destroyed more go watch that movie. I don't think that I have ever raged so hard.

I use to be Christian, until I read the bible.

Wow . . . just wow.

[QUOTE="markop2003"] [QUOTE="OneShot112"] No.Dylan_11

Not all Christians believe the bible word for word, you know.

You are using the word "cannot" in a way that implies that it is physically impossible to do ("I cannot lift seven thousand pounds on my back") when that simply is not how it is here. I CAN believe my desk is omnipotent. There is nothing stopping me from doing so if I want; but I don't. I CAN believe the Earth is flat, and, indeed, there are some people who actually do. But I don't want to.

Theokhoth

If there is a reason he believes the earth is round and god doesn't exist, then he can't just believe in something contrary because he wants to.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

You are using the word "cannot" in a way that implies that it is physically impossible to do ("I cannot lift seven thousand pounds on my back") when that simply is not how it is here. I CAN believe my desk is omnipotent. There is nothing stopping me from doing so if I want; but I don't. I CAN believe the Earth is flat, and, indeed, there are some people who actually do. But I don't want to.

Juken7

If there is a reason he believes the earth is round and god doesn't exist, then he can't just believe in something contrary because he wants to.

Sure he can. There's absolutely nothing stopping it. It's not something with a physical barrier around it or a genetic predisposition against it. People believe what they want to believe.

Then don't. There's nothing in the Nicene Creed about Hell. Lots of Christians don't believe in Hell and lots more believe Hell is different from fire and brimstone.Theokhoth

Hell perhaps, butI believethere was always eternal punishment. For an example Sheol.

Correct me if I am wrong.

You are using the word "cannot" in a way that implies that it is physically impossible to do ("I cannot lift seven thousand pounds on my back") when that simply is not how it is here. I CAN believe my desk is omnipotent. There is nothing stopping me from doing so if I want; but I don't. I CAN believe the Earth is flat, and, indeed, there are some people who actually do. But I don't want to.

Theokhoth

I want to believe there is a Christian God. I cannot.

Belief is not something you choose to do, it is something that happens based on avaliable evidence. For example as a child you may have believed in Santa Clause. Did you choose to do so? Do you remember thinking about it rationally? No, chances are you did it without thinking about it at all. The reason is because you had evidence--presents under the tree which would be enough evidence for you to believe Santa was real, even if you never seen him yourself.

Then when you got older you heard Santa was not real, you heard pretty convincing statements such as it was really your parents who put the presents under the Christmas tree.

At this point of time did you then choose to not believe in Santa anymore? Or did it simply happen as a result of new evidence being made availiable to you?

You can have the choice to reject evidence, you you couldn't choose to stop believing if nobody gave you any evidence at all.

Not all Christians believe the bible word for word, you know.

SgtKevali

Not all Christians believe the bible word for word, you know.

SgtKevali

[QUOTE="Juken7"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

You are using the word "cannot" in a way that implies that it is physically impossible to do ("I cannot lift seven thousand pounds on my back") when that simply is not how it is here. I CAN believe my desk is omnipotent. There is nothing stopping me from doing so if I want; but I don't. I CAN believe the Earth is flat, and, indeed, there are some people who actually do. But I don't want to.

Theokhoth

If there is a reason he believes the earth is round and god doesn't exist, then he can't just believe in something contrary because he wants to.

Sure he can. There's absolutely nothing stopping it. It's not something with a physical barrier around it or a genetic predisposition against it. People believe what they want to believe.

If you're illogical and ignore evidence then yes, you can believe the Earth is flat. But the rational mind would not think that way. Different people think different ways, don't project your way of thinking onto him.

Honestly, much of religion is left up to individualinterpretation. I doubt it is as black and white as people try to make it out. You're talking about an incredibly complex situtation and trying to view it in terms that are familiar to yourself. Maybe that's incorrect?

1. Yes she would go to hell, BECAUSE SHE DONT BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!! How could she go to the Kingdom of God(Heaven) and not believe in GOD?

2. I didnt feel like reading 2

all I have to say is u better believe in and worship GOD or your going to hell........its the way it is

x8VXU6

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

Not all Christians believe the bible word for word, you know.

SuperVegeta518

People essentially pick and choose. The RW christians pick the parts condemning homosexuals and ignore the part about eating shrimp.

Hell perhaps, butI believethere was always eternal punishment. For an example Sheol.

Correct me if I am wrong.

OneShot112

Sheol is not eternal punishment. It's the word for where dead people - all dead people - go. It was translated into "hell" in the King James Version (sometimes, mind you), but all modern Bibles recognize that it most certainly is not referring to the Christian conception of hell.

The earliest Christians believed, in fact, that all would be reconciled with God and that the punishment sinners receive is corrective in nature, which is what the original Greek bears witness to, but that has long since been obfuscated by centuries upon centuries during which Christians could only work with the Latin translation of the Bible.

[QUOTE="OneShot112"]

God gives us free will and would want us to follow the 'Golden rule'(show love etc.) or else be condemned to Hell for eternity. This woman has shown great love for people, through her behaviours. Yet because of her beliefs she is going to burn in hell for eternity. I refuse to believe this.

Then don't. There's nothing in the Nicene Creed about Hell. Lots of Christians don't believe in Hell and lots more believe Hell is different from fire and brimstone.

2. Christianity has taught me that God has given us free will to choose to go to Heaven or Hell. Through believing in Christ our Saviour or not. To control one's behaviour that shows love and fairness. There is one thing that I have an issue with:

it would seem that I can control my behaviors, but not my beliefs.

As an agnostic who does not believe in the Christian religion, according to the Bible, I am destined to burn in Hell for eternity. I have never murdered anyone but I'm being sent to hell because Icannot believe in their God, if I were to die tommorow, I would be sent to hell. How can I follow a religion if I am not sure if it is the true way. I cannot control this.

I am being punished for that which I cannot control.

Christians may argue that I do in fact have control of my beliefs and I am not trying hard enough to believe. Wrong. I'm at a point now that trying to convince me that the Christian God exists through texts of the Bible and other biblical sources, would be like trying to convince me the world is flat.

I feel I'm at a point of no return, is it my fault that my beliefs do not allow me to believe the world is flat? What if I try to convince you your desk is omnipotent, you would never believe me.

I cannot simply make the choice to believe the world is flat, nor can you choose to believe your desk is omnipotent.

So again according to Christian beliefs, I am going to be sent to hell for something I cannot control. So much for infinite love.

I have many more different points, but these are the most pressing to me at this moment. Lets try to have a civil discussion.

Theokhoth

You are using the word "cannot" in a way that implies that it is physically impossible to do ("I cannot lift seven thousand pounds on my back") when that simply is not how it is here. I CAN believe my desk is omnipotent. There is nothing stopping me from doing so if I want; but I don't. I CAN believe the Earth is flat, and, indeed, there are some people who actually do. But I don't want to.

Hell perhaps, butI believethere was always eternal punishment. For an example Sheol.

Correct me if I am wrong.

I want to believe there is a Christian God. I cannot.

Belief is not something you choose to do, it is something that happens based on avaliable evidence. For example as a child you may have believed in Santa Clause. Did you choose to do so? Do you remember thinking about it rationally? No, chances are you did it without thinking about it at all. The reason is because you had evidence--presents under the tree which would be enough evidence for you to believe Santa was real, even if you never seen him yourself.

Then when you got older you heard Santa was not real, you heard pretty convincing statements such as it was really your parents who put the presents under the Christmas tree.

At this point of time did you then choose to not believe in Santa anymore? Or did it simply happen as a result of new evidence being made availiable to you?

You can have the choice to reject evidence, you you couldn't choose to stop believing if nobody gave you any evidence at all.

OneShot112

Sheol's a garbage dump.

I can close my eyes and believe that I'm the only thing in existence right now. It contradicts all evidence to the contrary, but I can do it. Evidence is no barrier to belief unless you make it one. I believed in Santa because I was little and my very smart parents told me Santa existed. If nobody ever gave me any evidence of Santa's existence (or nonexistence) then I still could have chosen to stop believing in Santa. Is there evidence for God's existence or nonexistence? Of course not. Then how does one stop believing in God? How does one start?

1. Yes she would go to hell, BECAUSE SHE DONT BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!! How could she go to the Kingdom of God(Heaven) and not believe in GOD?

x8VXU6

How? Simple: God's love for us is not dependent on our belief in him. If it were, then it would not be unconditional, and therefore would not be true love, but would rather be that which even sinners do (Luke 6:32)

Sheol's a garbage dump.

Theokhoth

I think you're thinking of Gehenna.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="OneShot112"]

God gives us free will and would want us to follow the 'Golden rule'(show love etc.) or else be condemned to Hell for eternity. This woman has shown great love for people, through her behaviours. Yet because of her beliefs she is going to burn in hell for eternity. I refuse to believe this.

Then don't. There's nothing in the Nicene Creed about Hell. Lots of Christians don't believe in Hell and lots more believe Hell is different from fire and brimstone.

2. Christianity has taught me that God has given us free will to choose to go to Heaven or Hell. Through believing in Christ our Saviour or not. To control one's behaviour that shows love and fairness. There is one thing that I have an issue with:

it would seem that I can control my behaviors, but not my beliefs.

As an agnostic who does not believe in the Christian religion, according to the Bible, I am destined to burn in Hell for eternity. I have never murdered anyone but I'm being sent to hell because Icannot believe in their God, if I were to die tommorow, I would be sent to hell. How can I follow a religion if I am not sure if it is the true way. I cannot control this.

I am being punished for that which I cannot control.

Christians may argue that I do in fact have control of my beliefs and I am not trying hard enough to believe. Wrong. I'm at a point now that trying to convince me that the Christian God exists through texts of the Bible and other biblical sources, would be like trying to convince me the world is flat.

I feel I'm at a point of no return, is it my fault that my beliefs do not allow me to believe the world is flat? What if I try to convince you your desk is omnipotent, you would never believe me.

I cannot simply make the choice to believe the world is flat, nor can you choose to believe your desk is omnipotent.

So again according to Christian beliefs, I am going to be sent to hell for something I cannot control. So much for infinite love.

I have many more different points, but these are the most pressing to me at this moment. Lets try to have a civil discussion.

EMOEVOLUTION

You are using the word "cannot" in a way that implies that it is physically impossible to do ("I cannot lift seven thousand pounds on my back") when that simply is not how it is here. I CAN believe my desk is omnipotent. There is nothing stopping me from doing so if I want; but I don't. I CAN believe the Earth is flat, and, indeed, there are some people who actually do. But I don't want to.

Do the chemicals control what I think, or does what I think control the chemicals? It's not set-in-stone that culture and genes decide our beliefs (genes have no effect on our beliefs; they're not part of our biology). People go against their culture all the time; the fact that culture changes is proof of this. I've never seen anything saying chemical influences affect our beliefs.

[QUOTE="EMOEVOLUTION"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

You are using the word "cannot" in a way that implies that it is physically impossible to do ("I cannot lift seven thousand pounds on my back") when that simply is not how it is here. I CAN believe my desk is omnipotent. There is nothing stopping me from doing so if I want; but I don't. I CAN believe the Earth is flat, and, indeed, there are some people who actually do. But I don't want to.

Theokhoth

Do the chemicals control what I think, or does what I think control the chemicals? It's not set-in-stone that culture and genes decide our beliefs (genes have no effect on our beliefs; they're not part of our biology). People go against their culture all the time; the fact that culture changes is proof of this. I've never seen anything saying chemical influences affect our beliefs.

Well here's a question: if you can believe anything at all that you want to believe, then why do you believe what you do?

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="Juken7"]

If there is a reason he believes the earth is round and god doesn't exist, then he can't just believe in something contrary because he wants to.

SgtKevali

Sure he can. There's absolutely nothing stopping it. It's not something with a physical barrier around it or a genetic predisposition against it. People believe what they want to believe.

If you're illogical and ignore evidence then yes, you can believe the Earth is flat. But the rational mind would not think that way. Different people think different ways, don't project your way of thinking onto him.

If I'm doing that, then aren't you doing that to me now?

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="EMOEVOLUTION"] It really doesn't work that way. What you think is determined by chemical reactions in the brain.. and stimulus outside of you. It's a nice concept to believe you can directly control what you're thinking about.. but it's really rather limited. I could say I believe in God.. but it doesn't mean I do. I could tell myself that over and over again.. it still wouldn't make it true. Really.. the whole concept that you have complete control over what you believe or don't believe.. is really lacking in perspective. What you believe is a product of the culture around you and your genetic capabilities.. among the chemical influences you may be or may not be exposed too.

GabuEx

Do the chemicals control what I think, or does what I think control the chemicals? It's not set-in-stone that culture and genes decide our beliefs (genes have no effect on our beliefs; they're not part of our biology). People go against their culture all the time; the fact that culture changes is proof of this. I've never seen anything saying chemical influences affect our beliefs.

Well here's a question: if you can believe anything at all that you want to believe, then why do you believe what you do?

Because what I believe makes the most sense of what I know about the world.

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

Not all Christians believe the bible word for word, you know.

SuperVegeta518

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Do the chemicals control what I think, or does what I think control the chemicals? It's not set-in-stone that culture and genes decide our beliefs (genes have no effect on our beliefs; they're not part of our biology). People go against their culture all the time; the fact that culture changes is proof of this. I've never seen anything saying chemical influences affect our beliefs.

Theokhoth

Well here's a question: if you can believe anything at all that you want to believe, then why do you believe what you do?

Because what I believe makes the most sense of what I know about the world.

And why use that as a criterion?

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Sure he can. There's absolutely nothing stopping it. It's not something with a physical barrier around it or a genetic predisposition against it. People believe what they want to believe.

Theokhoth

If you're illogical and ignore evidence then yes, you can believe the Earth is flat. But the rational mind would not think that way. Different people think different ways, don't project your way of thinking onto him.

If I'm doing that, then aren't you doing that to me now?

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Well here's a question: if you can believe anything at all that you want to believe, then why do you believe what you do?

GabuEx

Because what I believe makes the most sense of what I know about the world.

And why use that as a criterion?

Seems more practical nowadays.

You know, what I find unfortunate is: If God is real, it means the following: - The chances of your beliefs, opinions, and conflicts meaning squat to him not sending you to Hell seems pretty darn high. It's basically a "My rules, have fun!" - You don't have to "agree" with all things God to believe in him, last I checked. Finding potential logical holes won't confirm or deny his existence. -Does anyone know if God allows you to say anything or explain yourself before he drops you? Or is it just "lolTooBad!"? (Assuming he was real. Hearing an Atheist's trolling opinions wouldn't be worth responding to. If he/she was trolling, that is~)Symphonycometh