"Proof" of God. An ontological argument from sufficient reason.

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chessmaster1989

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#101 chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="domatron23"]

P1. It is proposed that a being is maximally excellent if it is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good

KungfuKitten

My friend, I leave you with one quote:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

-Epicurus

Nobody said God is nice.

Hmm wait.
I think someone did.
Well there is always the God doesn't make sense to us argument.

Don't forget that God gave us free will :P. Which, of course, kind of contradicts the idea of his omniscience, but that's another story ;).

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RadBooley

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#102 RadBooley
Member since 2008 • 1237 Posts

[QUOTE="domatron23"]

P1. It is proposed that a being is maximally excellent if it is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good

chessmaster1989

My friend, I leave you with one quote:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

-Epicurus

How soon you forget. God works in mysterious ways that you can't possibly understand. Duh.

:P

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markop2003

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#103 markop2003
Member since 2005 • 29917 Posts
You fail at your second point, the scientific method says you have to proove something exists not that it can't possibly exist
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BumFluff122

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#104 BumFluff122
Member since 2004 • 14853 Posts

If God is perfect how could he create anything that is imperfect? That beings humans.

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gameguy6700

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#106 gameguy6700
Member since 2004 • 12197 Posts

P1. It is proposed that a being is maximally excellent if it is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good

P2. It is proposed that a being is unsurpassably great if it has maximal excellence and if there is no possible explanation which accounts for its non-existence

P3. Everything that exists or does not exist has a possible explanation for why it does or does not exist

P4. If an unsurpassably great being does not exist there is no possible explanation for why he does not exist (from 2)

P5. If an unsurpassably great being does not exist there is a possible explanation for why he does not exist (from 3)

P6. The proposition that an unsurpassably great being does not exist is self-contradictory and necessarily false (from 4 and 5)

Therefore: An unsurpassably great being exists

domatron23

You're assuming that God can't be disproven. You fail on premise 2. You also fail on premise 1 because you assume God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent when there is much evidence in the bible to suggest that God is none of those.

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The_Versatile

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#107 The_Versatile
Member since 2009 • 820 Posts
That didn't prove anything. P3 is wrong because there is not necessarily a reason for something not existing. Maybe some things exist and people don't know about them and would assume they don't exist. God wouldn't fall into that category, because people do assume he exists. P3 and P4 contradict each other, thus rendering P6 false. P5 also clashes with P2. Which in turn, makes your "therefore" also false, or at least not necessarilty true.
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789shadow

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#108 789shadow
Member since 2006 • 20195 Posts

Philosophy is not proof.

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#109 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
Man do I despise sophistry
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deactivated-59be76f5a5388

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#110 deactivated-59be76f5a5388
Member since 2006 • 11372 Posts
Bleh. I'm not even going to bother.
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domatron23

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#111 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts
I see that I didn't make my devils advocacy any where near clear enough. Oh well.
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Funky_Llama

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#112 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
I see that I didn't make my devils advocacy any where near clear enough. Oh well.domatron23
This is true. I certainly wouldn't have guessed.
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domatron23

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#113 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts
[QUOTE="domatron23"]I see that I didn't make my devils advocacy any where near clear enough. Oh well.Funky_Llama
This is true. I certainly wouldn't have guessed.

I thought maybe the inverted commas and atheism union link might have tipped most people off. Too bad I suppose, it's interesting to see what being an evangelical Christian is like though. People can get kind of upset.
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foxhound_fox

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#114 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

I thought maybe the inverted commas and atheism union link might have tipped most people off. Too bad I suppose, it's interesting to see what being an evangelical Christian is like though. People can get kind of upset.domatron23

They just decided to read the post and not consider the poster posting it. I knew you were playing devil's advocate as soon as I saw your username below the title.

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#115 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="domatron23"]I see that I didn't make my devils advocacy any where near clear enough. Oh well.domatron23
This is true. I certainly wouldn't have guessed.

I thought maybe the inverted commas and atheism union link might have tipped most people off. Too bad I suppose, it's interesting to see what being an evangelical Christian is like though. People can get kind of upset.

I noticed the Atheism union, but took your post at face value, assuming good faith.
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domatron23

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#116 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts

[QUOTE="domatron23"]I thought maybe the inverted commas and atheism union link might have tipped most people off. Too bad I suppose, it's interesting to see what being an evangelical Christian is like though. People can get kind of upset.foxhound_fox


They just decided to read the post and not consider the poster posting it. I knew you were playing devil's advocate as soon as I saw your username below the title.

I suppose my atheism isn't notorious enough yet. Too bad.

In any case I don't think that David Gasking's parody argument works too well against this version because it suffers from the "existence isn't a predicate" criticism by saying that an existing God would not be as great as a non-existing God (in terms of their handicap).

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domatron23

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#117 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts
[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]This is true. I certainly wouldn't have guessed.xaos
I thought maybe the inverted commas and atheism union link might have tipped most people off. Too bad I suppose, it's interesting to see what being an evangelical Christian is like though. People can get kind of upset.

I noticed the Atheism union, but took your post at face value, assuming good faith.

Aren't I just a bastard? What do you make of the argument xaos? (apart from the blatant sophistry). Where does it go wrong?
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194197844077667059316682358889

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#118 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="domatron23"] I thought maybe the inverted commas and atheism union link might have tipped most people off. Too bad I suppose, it's interesting to see what being an evangelical Christian is like though. People can get kind of upset.

I noticed the Atheism union, but took your post at face value, assuming good faith.

Aren't I just a bastard? What do you make of the argument xaos? (apart from the blatant sophistry). Where does it go wrong?

Well to me, it begs the question, since the initial proposals seem to assume the existence of a being that satisfies the results of the argument. That sort of highly formal argument is not a strength of mine, though.
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The_Versatile

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#119 The_Versatile
Member since 2009 • 820 Posts
Yeah domatron, I know you're not a theist, I was just pointing out why that argument doesn't work... Unless you wanted it to look that way on purpose? ;)
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krp008

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#120 krp008
Member since 2006 • 4341 Posts

Man i wish religion didn't exist. Billions of people believing in the same thing... Can they all still be crazy? YES!

I guess im just smarter and more reasonable than most people on this planet... :|

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joao_22990

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#121 joao_22990
Member since 2007 • 2230 Posts
The op assumes too much of our capabilities as logic beings. We are not in the pinnacle of our knowledge, or even undestand the universe in any way that can help us understand god, as it is assumed.
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The_Versatile

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#122 The_Versatile
Member since 2009 • 820 Posts
[QUOTE="krp008"]

Man i wish religion didn't exist. Billions of people believing in the same thing... Can they all still be crazy? YES!

I guess im just smarter and more reasonable than most people on this planet... :|

Not smarter than me. ;)
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SkyWard20

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#123 SkyWard20
Member since 2009 • 4509 Posts

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="domatron23"] I thought maybe the inverted commas and atheism union link might have tipped most people off. Too bad I suppose, it's interesting to see what being an evangelical Christian is like though. People can get kind of upset.domatron23
I noticed the Atheism union, but took your post at face value, assuming good faith.

Aren't I just a bastard? What do you make of the argument xaos? (apart from the blatant sophistry). Where does it go wrong?

The following premise: '.... there is no possible explanation which accounts for its non-existence' can only work if an 'unsurpassably great being' exists. The fourth claim of the argument (P4) dismisses the secondary premise, as it starts to draw its conclusion with 'If an unsurpassably great being does not exist'. The fourth claim only assumes the responsibility of one part of P2's argument to come to a conclusion ('there is no possible explanation..') God's inexistence can't be explained only if God does exist. If I misunderstood, and P2 doesn't have to assume the existence of God, then the reasoning is circular (God must exist because He is defined as such).

The third claim (P4) is untrue, as only contradictory concepts can be demonstrated not to exist (and thus 'explained' redundantly - 'because they are contradictory') If the concepts are not contradictory, 'a possible explanation' cannot be verified of the value of its possibility if the concept does not exist, as a concept that does not exist cannot have any self-reliant evidence for its inexistence and cannot be explained.

These factors notwithstanding, the inexistence of 'an unsurpassably great being' wouldn't be paradoxal if only one of the two claims which contribute to a paradox were true (God's inexistence is unexplainable; God's existence must be explainable). As the single paradox lies within the inexplicability of God's existence, the veracity of God's inexistence wouldn't be directly contradictory. The paradox affirms that God's inexistence cannot be mutually inexplicable and explicable; by exstension, God's inexistence would be a paradox only if both statements were mutually applicable, and conclusively, one of the premises must have been untrue. Two contradictory affirmations do not invalidate both independently, but show that both of them cannot be collective values and that one of them must be incorrect, given the context. In other words, the paradox does not compromise God's inexistence as the paradox is in conflict with the premises and cannot be valid.

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Wasdie

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#124 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

Who cares? I wanna live my life without worring about some higher being. I am in direct control of what happens with my actions. The unforseen consequences that happen randomly to an individual are just that, random. I want to be known as a good person by society, more importantly, known as a good person by the people around me.

I don't want old morals of a ancient civilization to dictate my life (refering to the Bible). I want to be mindful and open to different opinions and thoughts about life. I want to accept differences in ways people are.

Proving there is a God is doing nothing but trying to push that sort of religion onto me. You can be Christian, Islamic, or some crazy tribal religion but it doesn't change the fact that your trying to push religion onto people by trying to prove there is a God.

Religion is meant to be a private belief. It is your right as a human to have those beliefs and nobody can take them from you. At the same time you cannot try to force those beliefs onto somebody else. If people don't want to believe, then don't force them. Know that you are doing what YOU believe is right by believing in whatever YOU want to believe in.

Thats all that should matter to anybody.

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AYBABTme

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#125 AYBABTme
Member since 2007 • 409 Posts

there is no such thing as god

JayQproductions

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chessmaster1989

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#126 chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts

[QUOTE="JayQproductions"]

there is no such thing as god

AYBABTme

I think that's the first time I've ever facepalmed at a facepalm :o.

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optiow

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#127 optiow
Member since 2008 • 28284 Posts
Well some great exists somewhere...
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TheFlush

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#128 TheFlush
Member since 2002 • 5965 Posts
@TC: Proof of god? it's just word juggling to create a loophole for religious people :)