Nat. Poll: Majority of American Catholics Support Obama and Legal Abortion

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#201 deactivated-5b78379493e12
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[QUOTE="jimkabrhel"]

[QUOTE="whipassmt"] Modern medicine can also resolve those issues in other ways than resorting to a direct abortion. For instance in ectopic pregnancies (which tend to be more likely in women who have previously had an abortion), one of the circumstances that is frequently used to justify an abortion, there are other options which are not direct abortions (such as salpingectomies).

Also even were abortion to be illegal, there would probably some leeway for doctors in such medical situations. Or there could be a situation like Poland, where abortion is legal for certain medical reasons (though the Poles are trying to close some loopholes in those laws) if the abortion is certified by a panel of doctors.

whipassmt

My wife had an ectopic pregnancy last year. We had to make some difficult choices, and none of them we're positive, but by most definitions that the current GOP is offering in their abortion bills, what we chose to do was an abortion.

You mentioned asalpingectomy. When you have had trouble with fertility for many years, having such a procedure becomes less of an option.

These kind of discussion remind me that personhood amendments restrict so many things, that they shouldn't be considered. And most people haven't had to deal with a situation that may require an abortion. You cannot understand the emotions that are involved until you have those emotions.

I'm pro choice, though I disgree with most random abortions. You shouldn't end the potential for life unless it's absolutely necessary, but I firmly believe it should be up to the woman, or the couple to make the choice, not the government.

should the man have any legal right to veto the abortion of his offspring? Should minors have to get parental consent or at least notify their parents?

should laws requiring abortion-providers to report data (i.e. age of the mother, gestational age of the fetus) to the dept. of public health include penalties for failing to comply?

If you are referring to the specifics of personhood amendments, I will say that there are some policies that have merit wrapped up in a lot of nonsense. That's why you see so many bills in so many siutations voted against, because good ideas come with so many bad ones.

Do you think that couples shouldn't have the right to use fertility techniques to get pregnant? Or that contraception should be outlawed?

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SteverXIII

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#202 SteverXIII
Member since 2010 • 3795 Posts

Can I get some opinions on this?

486687_10151275973442363_1610197015_n.jp

This is being passed around by Youth Defense, a well known right wing homophobic group that puts up anti-abortion posters over here,

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#203 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Yes but we have seen time and time again that they are at best given a supporting role in the matter.. The Catholic Church, the Republican party.. The majority of rhetoric all came from men.. The fvcking panel about contraception for women through healthcare by the Republican party had ONE woman out of two panels of some dozen people.. You can't look at me with a straight face and claim that women some how have a equal footing in the pro life movement in the United States.. They do not.

LJS9502_basic

There was no panel about "contraception for women". The panel was about religious liberty (i.e. forcing all health-insurance purchasers to have contraceptives, sterilizations and abortion-inducing drugs included in their insurance plan whether they want it or not).

It's okay to erode Constitutional freedoms until it comes to his. Don't worry....he'll take a stand then.

well if he doesn't care about the constitutional freedoms of these religious entities, he should care about the economic effects that the mandate will have when it starts fining groups who don't comply $36,500 per employee per year, thus resulting in layoffs, less hiring, and in many of these entities going broke (in other words, higher unemployment and higher government deficits when more people are taken off the tax-paying rolls and put on the unemployment rolls). Not to mention all the poor people that will be harmed when various religious charities (soup kitchens, St. Vincent DePaul shelters, etc.) go out of business.

Romney should talk about the economic consequences of the HHS mandate more often, I imagine a lot of poor folk will be less likely to vote for Obama if they hear that his HHS mandate could shut down charities that have done so much to help them. And it would hurt Obama's economic credentials if people hear that the HHS mandate will almost certainly cause people to lose their jobs.

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#204 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="jimkabrhel"]

My wife had an ectopic pregnancy last year. We had to make some difficult choices, and none of them we're positive, but by most definitions that the current GOP is offering in their abortion bills, what we chose to do was an abortion.

You mentioned asalpingectomy. When you have had trouble with fertility for many years, having such a procedure becomes less of an option.

These kind of discussion remind me that personhood amendments restrict so many things, that they shouldn't be considered. And most people haven't had to deal with a situation that may require an abortion. You cannot understand the emotions that are involved until you have those emotions.

I'm pro choice, though I disgree with most random abortions. You shouldn't end the potential for life unless it's absolutely necessary, but I firmly believe it should be up to the woman, or the couple to make the choice, not the government.

jimkabrhel

should the man have any legal right to veto the abortion of his offspring? Should minors have to get parental consent or at least notify their parents?

should laws requiring abortion-providers to report data (i.e. age of the mother, gestational age of the fetus) to the dept. of public health include penalties for failing to comply?

If you are referring to the specifics of personhood amendments, I will say that there are some policies that have merit wrapped up in a lot of nonsense. That's why you see so many bills in so many siutations voted against, because good ideas come with so many bad ones.

Do you think that couples shouldn't have the right to use fertility techniques to get pregnant? Or that contraception should be outlawed?

As for fertility techniques, they shouldn't use in vitro or artificial insemination but there are some natural methods (i.e. ones that aim to correct flaws in the reproductive systems, such as the use of viagra or procedures to reduce fallopian damage). As for contraception, I think contraceptives with abortifacient properties should be outlawed (IUD, Plan B, etc.), though I would be fine with the legality of non-abortifacient ones (such as barrier methods, which are better anyway since they are the only contraceptives that reduce STD risk).

Jim you should see the edit I made to the post you have quoted.

Edit: I have appended the edit from that post to this post:

On a more important and personal note, Jim, I would have to inform you (not to disparage you or anything like that, only to inform and advise, though I must be clear that according to the teaching of the Church these reasons do not justify an abortion), that your wife has likely incurred excommunication latae sententiae excommunication under canon 1398 of the code of canon law (as has anyone else who knowingly and willingly helped her in this act, even if only by moral support). As such she cannot exercise any ministerial function (reader, etc.) in the Church, nor may she receive the sacraments (I think she can still attend Mass however and she would still have the obligation to raise her children - if she has any - in the Faith). I would urge you and your wife to discuss this with your parish priest, so that the situation may be resolved and the excommunication may be lifted. She should also go to confession.

Also as far as the excommunication goes, that it is possible that your wife has not incurred excommunication, if she was unaware of the law (i.e. the fact that one who procures an abortion excommunicates themselve latae sententiae), though she should see her priest about that.

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#205 deactivated-5b78379493e12
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On a more important and personal note, Jim, I would have to inform you (not to disparage you or anything like that, only to inform and advise, though I must be clear that according to the teaching of the Church these reasons do not justify an abortion), that your wife has likely incurred excommunication latae sententiae excommunication under canon 1398 of the code of canon law (as has anyone else who knowingly and willingly helped her in this act, even if only by moral support). As such she cannot exercise any ministerial function (reader, etc.) in the Church, nor may she receive the sacraments (I think she can still attend Mass however and she would still have the obligation to raise her children - if she has any - in the Faith). I would urge you and your wife to discuss this with your parish priest, so that the situation may be resolved and the excommunication may be lifted.

whipassmt

The first point I want to make, is that what happened with us occured at a Catholic-based hospital, and everything that happened for us occured under the advisement of members of that facility.

The sceond point is that I used a personal story to explain my position, and you have the gall to describe to me Church law (which my wife is perfectly aware of), telling me that she may be excommunicated. What gives you the right to make such a comment? You may say that you mean no judgement, but just by the act of posting the rules of a religion as is pertains to a personal subject by another says a lot more about you than it does me.

If you for one second believe that we didn't consider this as part of the decison we made, you have proved yourself to be a very pathetic person.

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#206 whipassmt
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[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

On a more important and personal note, Jim, I would have to inform you (not to disparage you or anything like that, only to inform and advise, though I must be clear that according to the teaching of the Church these reasons do not justify an abortion), that your wife has likely incurred excommunication latae sententiae excommunication under canon 1398 of the code of canon law (as has anyone else who knowingly and willingly helped her in this act, even if only by moral support). As such she cannot exercise any ministerial function (reader, etc.) in the Church, nor may she receive the sacraments (I think she can still attend Mass however and she would still have the obligation to raise her children - if she has any - in the Faith). I would urge you and your wife to discuss this with your parish priest, so that the situation may be resolved and the excommunication may be lifted.

jimkabrhel

The first point I want to make, is that what happened with us occured at a Catholic-based hospital, and everything that happened for us occured under the advisement of members of that facility.

The sceond point is that I used a personal story to explain my position, and you have the gall to describe to me Church law (which my wife is perfectly aware of), telling me that she may be excommunicated. What gives you the right to make such a comment? You may say that you mean no judgement, but just by the act of posting the rules of a religion as is pertains to a personal subject by another says a lot more about you than it does me.

If you for one second believe that we didn't consider this as part of the decison we made, you have proved yourself to be a very pathetic person.

How am I to know what knowledge your wife has of canonical law? As for gall, I am only doing my duty to inform you of an important pastoral situation that I did not know if you were aware of or not. It is not I who am saying anything, it is ecclesial law.

The fact that it happened at a Catholic facility does not mean that the members of that facility were knowledgeable about the canon law per se. I do not know which procedure was used (Catholic teaching forbids all direct abortions, but does allow procedures that indirectly lead to the fetus' death for proportional reasons), which I was why all that i can do is encourage you and her to talk to your parish priest about this.

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#207 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

Can I get some opinions on this?

486687_10151275973442363_1610197015_n.jp

This is being passed around by Youth Defense, a well known right wing homophobic group that puts up anti-abortion posters over here,

SteverXIII

As far as I know this flier is accurate. Ireland has the lowest maternal-mortality rate in the world, there was a panel of doctors convened in Dublin and I do believe that they said abortion is not medically necessary. And yes, Catholic teaching (and I would therefore suppose Irish law) allows for procedures that indirectly may cause the death of the child if done for proportionate reasons (i.e. to save the life of the mother).

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deactivated-5b78379493e12

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#208 deactivated-5b78379493e12
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[QUOTE="jimkabrhel"]

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

On a more important and personal note, Jim, I would have to inform you (not to disparage you or anything like that, only to inform and advise, though I must be clear that according to the teaching of the Church these reasons do not justify an abortion), that your wife has likely incurred excommunication latae sententiae excommunication under canon 1398 of the code of canon law (as has anyone else who knowingly and willingly helped her in this act, even if only by moral support). As such she cannot exercise any ministerial function (reader, etc.) in the Church, nor may she receive the sacraments (I think she can still attend Mass however and she would still have the obligation to raise her children - if she has any - in the Faith). I would urge you and your wife to discuss this with your parish priest, so that the situation may be resolved and the excommunication may be lifted.

whipassmt

The first point I want to make, is that what happened with us occured at a Catholic-based hospital, and everything that happened for us occured under the advisement of members of that facility.

The sceond point is that I used a personal story to explain my position, and you have the gall to describe to me Church law (which my wife is perfectly aware of), telling me that she may be excommunicated. What gives you the right to make such a comment? You may say that you mean no judgement, but just by the act of posting the rules of a religion as is pertains to a personal subject by another says a lot more about you than it does me.

If you for one second believe that we didn't consider this as part of the decison we made, you have proved yourself to be a very pathetic person.

How am I to know what knowledge your wife has of canonical law? As for gall, I am only doing my duty to inform you of an important pastoral situation that I did not know if you were aware of or not. It is not I who am saying anything, it is ecclesial law.

The fact that it happened at a Catholic facility does not mean that the members of that facility were knowledgeable about the canon law per se. I do not know which procedure was used (Catholic teaching forbids all direct abortions, but does allow procedures that indirectly lead to the fetus' death for proportional reasons), which I was why all that i can do is encourage you and her to talk to your parish priest about this.

You have seen in the media how members of the Catholic clergy and other important members of the church have reacted to legislation dealing with contraception. Do you think that they would allow this kind of procedure if it went against the rules of the faith, let alone be covered by insurance?

Let me tell you that during such an important situation, doctors and nurses aren't interested in debate church law or the merits of the afterlife. They are most interested in the emotional and physical well being of the mother-to-be and her partner, and that's as it should be.

I frankly don't care what any church doctrine would say about this. If you want to involve God, how about this: why would God provide a situation with a decision that has no right answers? Surgery is dangerous and reduces the possibility of conception. Ending the pregnancy though chemical (drug) means can be considered as abortion.

All of this deals with a cluster of cells, and for full disclosure, I saw the ultrasound live. I know what that cluster looked like and where it was in my wife's body. Do you have any idea what that feels like? I can tell you that it's an incredibly horrible thing, because not only is the pregnancy very unlikely to be successful, but you then have to decide what to do about.

Catholic canon really doesn't have a part to play. It shouldn't. If you feel that we should have considered church doctrine before anything else, you have your priorities out of whack.

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#209 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="jimkabrhel"]

The first point I want to make, is that what happened with us occured at a Catholic-based hospital, and everything that happened for us occured under the advisement of members of that facility.

The sceond point is that I used a personal story to explain my position, and you have the gall to describe to me Church law (which my wife is perfectly aware of), telling me that she may be excommunicated. What gives you the right to make such a comment? You may say that you mean no judgement, but just by the act of posting the rules of a religion as is pertains to a personal subject by another says a lot more about you than it does me.

If you for one second believe that we didn't consider this as part of the decison we made, you have proved yourself to be a very pathetic person.

jimkabrhel

How am I to know what knowledge your wife has of canonical law? As for gall, I am only doing my duty to inform you of an important pastoral situation that I did not know if you were aware of or not. It is not I who am saying anything, it is ecclesial law.

The fact that it happened at a Catholic facility does not mean that the members of that facility were knowledgeable about the canon law per se. I do not know which procedure was used (Catholic teaching forbids all direct abortions, but does allow procedures that indirectly lead to the fetus' death for proportional reasons), which I was why all that i can do is encourage you and her to talk to your parish priest about this.

You have seen in the media how members of the Catholic clergy and other important members of the church have reacted to legislation dealing with contraception. Do you think that they would allow this kind of procedure if it went against the rules of the faith, let alone be covered by insurance?

Let me tell you that during such an important situation, doctors and nurses aren't interested in debate church law or the merits of the afterlife. They are most interested in the emotional and physical well being of the mother-to-be and her partner, and that's as it should be.

I frankly don't care what any church doctrine would say about this. If you want to involve God, how about this: why would God provide a situation with a decision that has no right answers? Surgery is dangerous and reduces the possibility of conception. Ending the pregnancy though chemical (drug) means can be considered as abortion.

All of this deals with a cluster of cells, and for full disclosure, I saw the ultrasound live. I know what that cluster looked like and where it was in my wife's body. Do you have any idea what that feels like? I can tell you that it's an incredibly horrible thing, because not only is the pregnancy very unlikely to be successful, but you then have to decide what to do about.

Catholic canon really doesn't have a part to play. It shouldn't. If you feel that we should have considered church doctrine before anything else, you have your priorities out of whack.

they reacted not due to legislation dealing with contraception, but due to an executive branch regulation that would have interfered with Church-run institutions (requiring them to violate their beliefs).

As for your situation, I can only say that the Church law is what it is, you can accept or reject it, but you can't make it out to be other than it is. I would advise your wife to discuss this with her priest, that is all.

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michaelP4

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#210 michaelP4
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All I know is that a woman should make the decision on whether she should have an abortion or not, not the state. Therefore, as a liberal, I'm pro-choice so that she can have an abortion if she wants. I think that's the fairest compromise possible.
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#211 deactivated-598fc45371265
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All I know is that a woman should make the decision on whether she should have an abortion or not, not the state. Therefore, as a liberal, I'm pro-choice so that she can have an abortion if she wants. I think that's the fairest compromise possible.michaelP4

Where exactly is the compromise?

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#212 michaelP4
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[QUOTE="michaelP4"]All I know is that a woman should make the decision on whether she should have an abortion or not, not the state. Therefore, as a liberal, I'm pro-choice so that she can have an abortion if she wants. I think that's the fairest compromise possible.Storm_Marine

Where exactly is the compromise?

Because it's then a personal choice for that woman, instead of her being restricted by the state, church and others. It's only fair and is based on liberal democratic traditions.
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#213 whipassmt
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All I know is that a woman should make the decision on whether she should have an abortion or not, not the state. Therefore, as a liberal, I'm pro-choice so that she can have an abortion if she wants. I think that's the fairest compromise possible.michaelP4
what do you think of anti-discrimination laws? should private companies be allowed to discriminate if they want to?

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#214 deactivated-598fc45371265
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[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="michaelP4"]All I know is that a woman should make the decision on whether she should have an abortion or not, not the state. Therefore, as a liberal, I'm pro-choice so that she can have an abortion if she wants. I think that's the fairest compromise possible.michaelP4

Where exactly is the compromise?

Because it's then a personal choice for that woman, instead of her being restricted by the state, church and others. It's only fair and is based on liberal democratic traditions.

I don't think you know what a compromise is.

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#215 michaelP4
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[QUOTE="michaelP4"]All I know is that a woman should make the decision on whether she should have an abortion or not, not the state. Therefore, as a liberal, I'm pro-choice so that she can have an abortion if she wants. I think that's the fairest compromise possible.whipassmt

what do you think of anti-discrimination laws? should private companies be allowed to discriminate if they want to?

Good question. I personally have no problem with abortion. Any abortions carried out in the UK are all under the same system - the NHS and its criteria. So it's hard to answer that question as if I was a legislator, I'd have to take different views into account on this, which to be honest, I wouldn't know enough. I'd really have to get down to the specifics there.
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#216 deactivated-5b78379493e12
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[QUOTE="jimkabrhel"]

[QUOTE="whipassmt"] How am I to know what knowledge your wife has of canonical law? As for gall, I am only doing my duty to inform you of an important pastoral situation that I did not know if you were aware of or not. It is not I who am saying anything, it is ecclesial law.

The fact that it happened at a Catholic facility does not mean that the members of that facility were knowledgeable about the canon law per se. I do not know which procedure was used (Catholic teaching forbids all direct abortions, but does allow procedures that indirectly lead to the fetus' death for proportional reasons), which I was why all that i can do is encourage you and her to talk to your parish priest about this.

whipassmt

You have seen in the media how members of the Catholic clergy and other important members of the church have reacted to legislation dealing with contraception. Do you think that they would allow this kind of procedure if it went against the rules of the faith, let alone be covered by insurance?

Let me tell you that during such an important situation, doctors and nurses aren't interested in debate church law or the merits of the afterlife. They are most interested in the emotional and physical well being of the mother-to-be and her partner, and that's as it should be.

I frankly don't care what any church doctrine would say about this. If you want to involve God, how about this: why would God provide a situation with a decision that has no right answers? Surgery is dangerous and reduces the possibility of conception. Ending the pregnancy though chemical (drug) means can be considered as abortion.

All of this deals with a cluster of cells, and for full disclosure, I saw the ultrasound live. I know what that cluster looked like and where it was in my wife's body. Do you have any idea what that feels like? I can tell you that it's an incredibly horrible thing, because not only is the pregnancy very unlikely to be successful, but you then have to decide what to do about.

Catholic canon really doesn't have a part to play. It shouldn't. If you feel that we should have considered church doctrine before anything else, you have your priorities out of whack.

they reacted not due to legislation dealing with contraception, but due to an executive branch regulation that would have interfered with Church-run institutions (requiring them to violate their beliefs).

As for your situation, I can only say that the Church law is what it is, you can accept or reject it, but you can't make it out to be other than it is. I would advise your wife to discuss this with her priest, that is all.

Thank you for your complete detachment from the emotional aspects of the choice. Hiding behind Church doctrine is a very easy thing to do when you don't have to deal with the situation yourself.

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#217 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts
Abortion is wrong. I don't care who support.
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#218 l4dak47
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[QUOTE="michaelP4"]All I know is that a woman should make the decision on whether she should have an abortion or not, not the state. Therefore, as a liberal, I'm pro-choice so that she can have an abortion if she wants. I think that's the fairest compromise possible.Storm_Marine

Where exactly is the compromise?

Wat. It's really as simple as this; if you don't want an abortion......don't get one. If you do, then you should be legally allowed to do so.
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#219 deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
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This issue is so far down on the list for me it's not even funny.

I'm fine with legal abortions so long as I'm not paying for them. And if I have to pay for one, it should be when it's required to save the life of the mother.

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#220 deactivated-598fc45371265
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[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="michaelP4"]All I know is that a woman should make the decision on whether she should have an abortion or not, not the state. Therefore, as a liberal, I'm pro-choice so that she can have an abortion if she wants. I think that's the fairest compromise possible.l4dak47

Where exactly is the compromise?

Wat. It's really as simple as this; if you don't want an abortion......don't get one. If you do, then you should be legally allowed to do so.

Where

exactly

is

the

compromise

????

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michaelP4

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#221 michaelP4
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The compromise is between pro-choice and pro-life groups. You're not forced into getting an abortion and you're not forced not to get one. I thought that was obvious...
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#222 deactivated-598fc45371265
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The compromise is between pro-choice and pro-life groups. You're not forced into getting an abortion and you're not forced not to get one. I thought that was obvious...michaelP4

WTF. That would make sense only if the pro-choice party advocated forced abortions. Which it doesn't in the western world at least.

Compromise suggests a middle ground where both groups give up something. In your scenario the pro choice group get everything they want, and the pro life crowd gets....something that's not even a issue.

It's not a compromise, stop calling it that.

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#223 michaelP4
Member since 2004 • 16681 Posts
It's not about pro-choice or pro-life. That's where you've missed the point. It should be about the woman and what she wants to do. And it is a compromise - I will continue to call it that as that is exactly what it is, providing you adhere to liberal democratic values.
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#224 deactivated-598fc45371265
Member since 2008 • 13247 Posts

It's not about pro-choice or pro-life. That's where you've missed the point. It should be about the woman and what she wants to do. And it is a compromise - I will continue to call it that as that is exactly what it is, providing you adhere to liberal democratic values.michaelP4

In your scenario, there is absolutely no compromise between the two political positions, period. You're deluded it seems.

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michaelP4

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#225 michaelP4
Member since 2004 • 16681 Posts
On the contrary, especially whenever you still haven't after all this time addressed the key point...
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#226 deactivated-598fc45371265
Member since 2008 • 13247 Posts

On the contrary, especially whenever you still haven't after all this time addressed the key point...michaelP4

The only key point is that you have no idea what a compromise is.

Either explain what the pro choice crowd gives up in this "fairest compromise". Or shut up.

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michaelP4

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#227 michaelP4
Member since 2004 • 16681 Posts
Right well, you're the first I've ever seen on any debate not recognising a compromise so... I don't really know where the debate is anymore. I'll leave you with this: Liberal democracy = freedom = opportunity to do something if it doesn't harm another living human being = freedom to have an abortion. Anyone who adheres to liberal democratic values despite personal beliefs would recognise and accept that.
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#228 deactivated-598fc45371265
Member since 2008 • 13247 Posts

Right well, you're the first I've ever seen on any debate not recognising a compromise so... I don't really know where the debate is anymore. I'll leave you with this: Liberal democracy = freedom = opportunity to do something if it doesn't harm another living human being = freedom to have an abortion. Anyone who adheres to liberal democratic values despite personal beliefs would recognise and accept that.michaelP4

Stop bull sh itting me. Admit you have no idea what a compromise is.

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#229 deactivated-598fc45371265
Member since 2008 • 13247 Posts

I can't believe you can be so arrogant that you can't even admit fault on something this small.

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#230 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178872 Posts
[QUOTE="michaelP4"]Right well, you're the first I've ever seen on any debate not recognising a compromise so... I don't really know where the debate is anymore. I'll leave you with this: Liberal democracy = freedom = opportunity to do something if it doesn't harm another living human being = freedom to have an abortion. Anyone who adheres to liberal democratic values despite personal beliefs would recognise and accept that.

There really isn't a compromise on this issue. Not sure why you think so...that's rather bizarre.
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#231 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

I can't believe you can be so arrogant that you can't even admit fault on something this small.

Storm_Marine

Oh, the irony.