Liberal Democracy is not compatible with Islam

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

kingkong0124

No excuse for their barbarism..a lot of areas in the world has similar histories but are less violent today..And, if you study the history of the Middle East, it was largely violent before the West came..

And judging by what you're saying right now, i think it'd be safe to assume you think of Al Qaeda as freedom fighters? :roll:

Recognizing the causes of certain events is not the same as making excuses for those events. Only an idiot would conflate them.

And there you go making idiotic assumptions again. Just like when you thought it would be safe to assume since I smoke cigarettes then I probably shoot heroin, and since I carelessly caused some unintentional property damage as a kid that means I love stealing.

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"] ... People seem to forget it was the Middle Eastern and Arab culture that helped put Europe into the high middle ages and the Renaissance after the Crusades.. Victorious_Fize

well, they may think they are not compatable with us, but we (or I, I dare not speak for everyone, as the activist did) are compatable with them.

Yes!It is.

Victorious_Fize

It's been my opinion and observance of modern Arab history, even ancient all the way to the companions of the Prophet, that whenever there's been a Caliph, however way they were ruling, there were always detractors, there were always people who said they were not practicing the 'true' Islam. and this 'game' is still true everytime there is an election or an overthrow of a dictator, 'president', or monarch, they were not practicing 'true' Islam, but the next guy, he will surely establish the Rashidun Caliphate.

The Muslim world insults and demonizes Jews, Christians, Atheists, Gays, and Westerners in general routinely, this is not new in modern Arab history, why get really uptight when some @sshole in the west decide to be disgustingly offensive about Islam and the Prophet? Not to mention the irony that being accused of being violent, then reacting with violence to prove that Islam is not violent. C'mon man it's an oxymoron. We shouldn't be excusing that behavior. Not it's not right to be just be intentionally offensive, it's also really not right to kill someone over that. Not to mention the idiocy of wanting to burn and kill people who only share the nationality of said perpetrators.

and i don't believe in treating non-Muslims as dhimmi, that's not equality, that's apartheid, or worse it could be characterized as a protection racket not that different from the shop keeper paying for protection from the mob. Muslims in most non-Muslim lands today can experience legal equality, no it's not 100% perfect, there are injustices. the same cannot be said of non-Muslims in Muslim lands right now.

You honestly are telling me you can't see the problem with the Kashghari and Sheik Nasir Al-Omar thing? one guy wrote really rather tame offensive comments about the prophet, the other wants his head for writing said comments. your buddy Mr Praline has wrote far more offensive comments about the Prophet on this very forum, if you agree with Al-Omar on Kashgari you should be really wanting Praline's head right now, whether or not he's Muslim is besides the point.

and i'm not doing it for the money man, but i ain't complaining if i made a living trying to expose people to a different way of thinking when it comes to governance. One that's based on reason, individual freedom, and that is flexible enough that it can last throughout time.

i'm not saying secular governance is perfect, but i do believe it's better.

Any ideology that says it can bring about human utopia has proven to only to bring the exact opposite and left billions of lives living in misery.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]SaudiFury

and i'm not doing it for the money man, but i ain't complaining if i made a living trying to expose people to a different way of thinking when it comes to governance. One that's based on reason, individual freedom, and that is flexible enough that it can last throughout time.

i'm not saying secular governance is perfect, but i do believe it's better.

Any ideology that says it can bring about human utopia has proven to only to bring the exact opposite and left billions of lives living in misery.

I made this long ass reply for all your paragraphs only to get this shoved at my face in the end... I feel betrayed. >_>

As an advice, please stop talking about the Arab World/Muslim World and lose all attachments asap. Just go Western and act like you never came from here. It would be for the best.

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]Victorious_Fize

and i'm not doing it for the money man, but i ain't complaining if i made a living trying to expose people to a different way of thinking when it comes to governance. One that's based on reason, individual freedom, and that is flexible enough that it can last throughout time.

i'm not saying secular governance is perfect, but i do believe it's better.

Any ideology that says it can bring about human utopia has proven to only to bring the exact opposite and left billions of lives living in misery.

I made this long ass reply for all your paragraphs only to get this shoved at my face in the end... I feel betrayed. >_>

As an advice, please stop talking about the Arab World/Muslim World and lose all attachments asap. Just go Western and act like you never came from here. It would be for the best.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]SaudiFury

It's been my opinion and observance of modern Arab history, even ancient all the way to the companions of the Prophet, that whenever there's been a Caliph, however way they were ruling, there were always detractors, there were always people who said they were not practicing the 'true' Islam. and this 'game' is still true everytime there is an election or an overthrow of a dictator, 'president', or monarch, they were not practicing 'true' Islam, but the next guy, he will surely establish the Rashidun Caliphate.

The Muslim world insults and demonizes Jews, Christians, Atheists, Gays, and Westerners in general routinely, this is not new in modern Arab history, why get really uptight when some @sshole in the west decide to be disgustingly offensive about Islam and the Prophet? Not to mention the irony that being accused of being violent, then reacting with violence to prove that Islam is not violent. C'mon man it's an oxymoron. We shouldn't be excusing that behavior. Not it's not right to be just be intentionally offensive, it's also really not right to kill someone over that. Not to mention the idiocy of wanting to burn and kill people who only share the nationality of said perpetrators.

and i don't believe in treating non-Muslims as dhimmi, that's not equality, that's apartheid, or worse it could be characterized as a protection racket not that different from the shop keeper paying for protection from the mob. Muslims in most non-Muslim lands today can experience legal equality, no it's not 100% perfect, there are injustices. the same cannot be said of non-Muslims in Muslim lands right now.

You honestly are telling me you can't see the problem with the Kashghari and Sheik Nasir Al-Omar thing? one guy wrote really rather tame offensive comments about the prophet, the other wants his head for writing said comments. your buddy Mr Praline has wrote far more offensive comments about the Prophet on this very forum, if you agree with Al-Omar on Kashgari you should be really wanting Praline's head right now, whether or not he's Muslim is besides the point.

and i'm not doing it for the money man, but i ain't complaining if i made a living trying to expose people to a different way of thinking when it comes to governance. One that's based on reason, individual freedom, and that is flexible enough that it can last throughout time.

i'm not saying secular governance is perfect, but i do believe it's better.

Any ideology that says it can bring about human utopia has proven to only to bring the exact opposite and left billions of lives living in misery.

Respect +1000

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]

and i'm not doing it for the money man, but i ain't complaining if i made a living trying to expose people to a different way of thinking when it comes to governance. One that's based on reason, individual freedom, and that is flexible enough that it can last throughout time.

i'm not saying secular governance is perfect, but i do believe it's better.

Any ideology that says it can bring about human utopia has proven to only to bring the exact opposite and left billions of lives living in misery.

SaudiFury

I made this long ass reply for all your paragraphs only to get this shoved at my face in the end... I feel betrayed. >_>

As an advice, please stop talking about the Arab World/Muslim World and lose all attachments asap. Just go Western and act like you never came from here. It would be for the best.

Spoken like a true liberal/tirsh/selebi/mutabil/etc. I bet you j!zzed when you heard the girl who didn't speak Arabic represented us at the olympics or when Badawi's sister got whatever that prize was.

Man, tribes really are the last 'good' Muslims in this place... oh and Jawa, those guys are often nice.

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]Victorious_Fize

and i'm not doing it for the money man, but i ain't complaining if i made a living trying to expose people to a different way of thinking when it comes to governance. One that's based on reason, individual freedom, and that is flexible enough that it can last throughout time.

i'm not saying secular governance is perfect, but i do believe it's better.

Any ideology that says it can bring about human utopia has proven to only to bring the exact opposite and left billions of lives living in misery.

I made this long ass reply for all your paragraphs only to get this shoved at my face in the end... I feel betrayed. >_>

As an advice, please stop talking about the Arab World/Muslim World and lose all attachments asap. Just go Western and act like you never came from here. It would be for the best.

it made me sad to see SaudiFury embrace the dark side :(

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]

and i'm not doing it for the money man, but i ain't complaining if i made a living trying to expose people to a different way of thinking when it comes to governance. One that's based on reason, individual freedom, and that is flexible enough that it can last throughout time.

i'm not saying secular governance is perfect, but i do believe it's better.

Any ideology that says it can bring about human utopia has proven to only to bring the exact opposite and left billions of lives living in misery.

Harisemo

I made this long ass reply for all your paragraphs only to get this shoved at my face in the end... I feel betrayed. >_>

As an advice, please stop talking about the Arab World/Muslim World and lose all attachments asap. Just go Western and act like you never came from here. It would be for the best.

it made me sad to see SaudiFury embrace the dark side :(

Now I realize he's just another "Arab" (by language and association more than blood) in KSA that embraces nationalistic liberal (think Turkish CHP) views, they usually do that. I hate those people because they oppose Islam.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]

and i'm not doing it for the money man, but i ain't complaining if i made a living trying to expose people to a different way of thinking when it comes to governance. One that's based on reason, individual freedom, and that is flexible enough that it can last throughout time.

i'm not saying secular governance is perfect, but i do believe it's better.

Any ideology that says it can bring about human utopia has proven to only to bring the exact opposite and left billions of lives living in misery.

Harisemo

I made this long ass reply for all your paragraphs only to get this shoved at my face in the end... I feel betrayed. >_>

As an advice, please stop talking about the Arab World/Muslim World and lose all attachments asap. Just go Western and act like you never came from here. It would be for the best.

it made me sad to see SaudiFury embrace the dark side :(

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

I made this long ass reply for all your paragraphs only to get this shoved at my face in the end... I feel betrayed. >_>

As an advice, please stop talking about the Arab World/Muslim World and lose all attachments asap. Just go Western and act like you never came from here. It would be for the best.

Victorious_Fize

Spoken like a true liberal/tirsh/selebi/mutabil/etc. I bet you j!zzed when you heard the girl who didn't speak Arabic represented us at the olympics or when Badawi's sister got whatever that prize was.

Man, tribes really are the last 'good' Muslims in this place... oh and Jawa, those guys are often nice.

as for my 'no', you are obviously taking it personal and getting really defensive in that i'm pushing the ideology i believe (when it comes to governance). We stand on opposite ends, your response is "leave", if everyone did that nothing would ever change. You don't turn your back on family and country (at least up until the point where they're gonna torture and kill you).

Nobody ever thinks they're on the wrong side of history, that they are 'villain' in the story. There's no such thing as the "legion of doom' as it were.

But i will say, if we ever see the Rashidun Caliphate arise in any part of the Sunni Arab world, i hope that you and i live long enough to see how it ends up. Though i gotta say, i'm fairly confident i'll be right, in that it is will be an archaic-law based government that cannot evolve, will set disillusionment in the people, and something similar to the dissolution of Communism would occur.

I also don't find it all too surprising, that i take this stand, and it seems to sting so much worse, but someone with the same views coming from the outside (though i'm sure you've thought of me and others like me as being on the outside) stings a lot less.

but i will say this, say what you think with the power of your conviction, and where you (seem to be) will be quick to kick me out of the saudi 'club' and discussion about Arab/Muslim world, know this.... i'll never kick you out even as we have this big divide when it comes to politics.

and i still like you, even despite this obvious big disagreement.

He's just saying that Islam forbids hockey.

[QUOTE="UnknownSniper65"]

[QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]Christians don't blow up buildings.....

TopTierHustler

Timothy McVeigh did:|

McVeigh did what he did in the name of white supremacy.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"] no.SaudiFury

Spoken like a true liberal/tirsh/selebi/mutabil/etc. I bet you j!zzed when you heard the girl who didn't speak Arabic represented us at the olympics or when Badawi's sister got whatever that prize was.

Man, tribes really are the last 'good' Muslims in this place... oh and Jawa, those guys are often nice.

as for my 'no', you are obviously taking it personal and getting really defensive in that i'm pushing the ideology i believe (when it comes to governance). We stand on opposite ends, your response is "leave", if everyone did that nothing would ever change. You don't turn your back on family and country (at least up until the point where they're gonna torture and kill you).

Nobody ever thinks they're on the wrong side of history, that they are 'villain' in the story. There's no such thing as the "legion of doom' as it were.

But i will say, if we ever see the Rashidun Caliphate arise in any part of the Sunni Arab world, i hope that you and i live long enough to see how it ends up. Though i gotta say, i'm fairly confident i'll be right, in that it is will be an archaic-law based government that cannot evolve, will set disillusionment in the people, and something similar to the dissolution of Communism would occur.

I also don't find it all too surprising, that i take this stand, and it seems to sting so much worse, but someone with the same views coming from the outside (though i'm sure you've thought of me and others like me as being on the outside) stings a lot less.

but i will say this, say what you think with the power of your conviction, and where you (seem to be) will be quick to kick me out of the saudi 'club' and discussion about Arab/Muslim world, know this.... i'll never kick you out even as we have this big divide when it comes to politics.

and i still like you, even despite this obvious big disagreement.

moving this to PMs...

This whole thing would be easier to resolve over a drink.

This whole thing would be easier to resolve over a drink.

Brosephus_Rex

This whole thing would be easier to resolve over a drink.

Brosephus_Rex

[QUOTE="Brosephus_Rex"]

This whole thing would be easier to resolve over a drink.

DroidPhysX

I called a topic creator a mean name.

Now I realize he's just another "Arab" (by language and association more than blood) in KSA that embraces nationalistic liberal (think Turkish CHP) views, they usually do that. I hate those people because they oppose Islam.Victorious_Fize

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]Now I realize he's just another "Arab" (by language and association more than blood) in KSA that embraces nationalistic liberal (think Turkish CHP) views, they usually do that. I hate those people because they oppose Islam.MannyDelgado

The only thing compatible with Islam is Islam.

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]

:| Since when does the west adhere to one way of life? Christians' way of life is not compatible with liberalism either. If you want to go to the west you have to abide by the law. Other than that you can have whatever way of life you want.

TopTierHustler

Abortion clinics are buildings.

[QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]

:| Since when does the west adhere to one way of life? Christians' way of life is not compatible with liberalism either. If you want to go to the west you have to abide by the law. Other than that you can have whatever way of life you want.

white_wolf922

Abortion clinics are buildings.

[QUOTE="white_wolf922"]

[QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]Christians don't blow up buildings.....

MannyDelgado

Abortion clinics are buildings.

Well we could take the long view and look at Christianity's history of violence and oppression. It's as least as bad as Islam's. Religion and politics should not mix, end of story.

The only thing compatible with Islam is Islam.

MirkoS77

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]Now I realize he's just another "Arab" (by language and association more than blood) in KSA that embraces nationalistic liberal (think Turkish CHP) views, they usually do that. I hate those people because they oppose Islam.MannyDelgado

[QUOTE="MannyDelgado"][QUOTE="white_wolf922"]

Abortion clinics are buildings.

white_wolf922

Well we could take the long view and look at Christianity's history of violence and oppression. It's as least as bad as Islam's. Religion and politics should not mix, end of story.

[QUOTE="white_wolf922"]

[QUOTE="MannyDelgado"]>tfw when well-meaming dimwits think they can reasonably equate the endless stream of Muslim terrorist atrocities with the incredibly rare instances of Christian terrorismMannyDelgado

Well we could take the long view and look at Christianity's history of violence and oppression. It's as least as bad as Islam's. Religion and politics should not mix, end of story.

So? My only point is that Christianity can be just as violent and brutal as Islam. I'm simply sick of all these Christians acting like their relgions has never done anything wrong when it can be as brutal as anything else.

[QUOTE="MannyDelgado"][QUOTE="white_wolf922"]

Well we could take the long view and look at Christianity's history of violence and oppression. It's as least as bad as Islam's. Religion and politics should not mix, end of story.

white_wolf922

So? My only point is that Christianity can be just as violent and brutal as Islam. I'm simply sick of all these Christians acting like their relgions has never done anything wrong when it can be as brutal as anything else.

[QUOTE="MannyDelgado"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]Now I realize he's just another "Arab" (by language and association more than blood) in KSA that embraces nationalistic liberal (think Turkish CHP) views, they usually do that. I hate those people because they oppose Islam.Victorious_Fize

[QUOTE="white_wolf922"]

[QUOTE="MannyDelgado"]You could indeed, and that would be irrelevant because we are talking about the present day. Try harder.MannyDelgado

So? My only point is that Christianity can be just as violent and brutal as Islam. I'm simply sick of all these Christians acting like their relgions has never done anything wrong when it can be as brutal as anything else.

Pretty much all of the 3 Monotheistcreligions are just as bad as each other. They are all full of superstitious myths that would be better off left in the past.

[QUOTE="MannyDelgado"]

[QUOTE="white_wolf922"]

So? My only point is that Christianity can be just as violent and brutal as Islam. I'm simply sick of all these Christians acting like their relgions has never done anything wrong when it can be as brutal as anything else.

white_wolf922

Pretty much all of the 3 Monotheistcreligions are just as bad as each other. They are all full of superstitious myths that would be better off left in the past. The Bible is as full of as much nonsense as the Quran and why anyone takes it seriously I'll never understand.

[QUOTE="white_wolf922"]

[QUOTE="TopTierHustler"]Christians don't blow up buildings.....

MannyDelgado

Abortion clinics are buildings.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="MannyDelgado"]Nice to see we have some Muslims here to show us that OP was rightMannyDelgado

Read this article

If you don't feel like reading the entire thing here's one interesting exerpt.

"Speaking last year at the launch of a book by Zafar Bangash, a Muslim activist in Toronto, Kambiz Sheikh-Hassani, Irans now-expelled chargé daffaires, told the audience: You live in Canada. Liberal democracy is not compatible with our way of life."

Why is ok for them to say it but not us ? We are racist when we state the obvious but they acknowledge it. Why do you want to move to the west knowing your way of life isn't compatible and attempt to change our way of life. This will never happen. Ever.

It is not racist or bigotted for me to say so either. The true racists & bigots are those who refuse to question their ideaology & belief system in response to different views & react with violence.

Skarwolf

A liberal democracy is a type of government in which representative democracy operates under the principles of liberalism. That is different from race which is a classification of humans' heritable phenotypic characteristics, geographic ancestry, physical appearance, ethnicity, and social status. Therefore, to be against liberal democracy is not racism. However, what was said in Toronto, Canada is an example of bigotry which is against particular groups including those who pertain to a political alignment.

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]

Victorious_Fize

As an advice, please stop talking about the Arab World/Muslim World and lose all attachments asap. Just go Western and act like you never came from here. It would be for the best.

Your elitism is so charming.

Freedom or religion, freedom of expression & speech, right to life, and basic human rights are generally not compatible with many religions/religous laws. I'd side with freedom every time.

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

The only thing compatible with Islam is Islam.

mAArdman

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]

:| Since when does the west adhere to one way of life? Christians' way of life is not compatible with liberalism either. If you want to go to the west you have to abide by the law. Other than that you can have whatever way of life you want.

TopTierHustler

We used to...

Any real move to democracy in the ME is always smashed by the West, particularly the US. They fund and give arms to coups, terrorist, and puppet governments so that they can work in the US interests. There's plenty of credible investigative and scholarly work that can confirm this and with the internet, the info can be easily accessed. So anyone who talks this "ME is non democratic" rubbish is completely unwilling to do basic research on the matter.thebest31406