If you belief in evolution and are atheist let me ask you a question ?

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#351 tycoonmike

Member since 2005 • 6082 Posts

1. Yes, this would be considered an objective statement. You can assign a true or false value to the statement "Coke is healthier for you than Pepsi." Do you see the difference between that statement and "Coke is better than Pepsi?"

2. I think it's a safe assumption to make that if, as the CEO of Pepsi, proclaimed that Coke was better that you would be fired. That doesn't make it true or false though. The same person could have just as easily thought that Pepsi really is better than Coke. Subjective beliefs are true or false based on the individual who believes in them. Objective statements however are true or false regardless of whether or not a person believes them. Gravity exists even if you don't believe it. Tomorrow will be Tuesday, even if you truly believe it's going to be Saturday.

3. You are confusing truth with belief. In 1984 ( an excellent book by the way ), the truth itself was not changed. You cannot change truth. What was changed, was what people believed to be the truth. An example was when Big Brother reduced the chocolate rations from thirty grams per week, to twenty grams per week. The next day, through the telescreens, it was mentioned that demonstrations were held to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate rations to twenty grams. The people ( except Winston ) all believed this to be true. However, this did not change the truth. The truth still remained that the chocolate rations had been reduced, not increased.

4. Wrong. Your perception of reality is different from mine. Reality itself exists independent of our thoughts and beliefs. If all humans died tomorrow, the world would still be here. Reality would still exist.
Decessus

1. No I don't, because ultimately saying Coke is healthier than Pepsi is saying that Coke is better than Pepsi.

2. I grant you this, but despite your own subjective opinion, the truth is that, so long as you work for Coca-Cola, Coke is the better product. To say otherwise is the equivalent of treason in government, and punishable by your termination of your status with the company

3. But, if we were living in that reality, how could you prove to me that the ration was reduced instead of increased? All documentation prior to the reduction had been destroyed, and replaced with the new fact, that the ration was increased. The only way you could prove to me that it had been reduced would be through your memories, which in that reality, I would write off as a defective memory and report you to the thought police because the "almighty" word of Big Brother had been questioned.

4. But how could it? So far as we know, there would be no one left to experience it. How can something exist without the experience and memory of its existance? You could use that arguement against me for the above counter, but even still, that is not our reality, this is. We experience different things in our realities, and just because we haven't experienced them doesn't mean they don't exist, yes, but that means that we haven't the experience of its existance, and thus is not part of my reality.

17 years ago

194197844077667059316682358889

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#352 pianist

Member since 2003 • 18900 Posts

*sigh* Not this again...

To the topic creator... kindly explain the logic in claiming that a supernatural entity can simply exist without a creator if our universe can not.

The simple fact of the matter is that we don't yet understand much about how the universe was created, and it may be a long time before we do. This does not mean that the universe had to have been created by supernatural means, nor does it discount a supernatural explanation. It's rather silly to claim either position is impossible when there is little evidence to support either position. Regardless of the position one takes, though, conventional logic MUST be abandoned, because only one of two apparent possibilities exist, both of which are 'illogical:'

1) The universe was created from nothing, either by supernatural or natural means.
2) The universe has always existed (note that if 1 is true, then this illogical claim pertains to the supernatural creator as well).

I'd love to know the answer to this question, but unless technology is developed to greatly extend human lifespans, I doubt any of us will know how the universe was created while we live.

17 years ago

#353 194197844077667059316682358889

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[QUOTE="tycoonmike"][QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="tycoonmike"][QUOTE="xaos"]We definitely are using different terminology, and what you call "personal reality" I call a schema. To me, insisting that your personal view of the physical world is reality in defiance of evidence or consensus is indicative of some kind of dissociative disorder. And the truck certainly exists for the blind man regardless of whether or not he sees it, right?

But how can a "truck" as we know it exist to a blind man? Will he suddenly be able to see his killer run him down, and realise at that last microsecond before his brain shuts down that "This is a truck?"

Our personal realities, or schemae, if that's the plural of schema, exist both as individual cells and as parts of the overall reality, like how stars exist as singular stars and together as a galaxy. The overall shape of our reality is formed from the other realities that we co-exist with, our parents, our friends, our enemies, everything we come into contact to that we can recognise, but then we take it and shape it using our own ideas.

How is a blind man's inability to describe a truck relevant to its reality, I think is my point. I certainly can grant you that someone blind from birth could not visualize it in any way that the sighted would recognize, there's just nothing in that fact that denotes "reality" to me.

Then I'll simplify, to a blind man, how can what we know as a truck, a big metal box with wheels, bigger than a car, and something that stinks to high heaven if you're behind it when you're driving down a road, exist without the ability to recognise it from sight? Without sight, the most you can do is realise that it stinks (as do most vehicles), it sounds powerful (as are most vehicles), and it's big and made of metal (as are most vehicles). I've used all the senses, minus taste, to describe what a truck is, but you wouldn't know that it is a truck at the crucial moment, when metal contacts with flesh. Thus how can a truck exist except through what you can percieve through your senses? And even if you could tell what it was, how could you be certain before it was too late?

You couldn't; that in no way affectsw the reality of it, however. Also, the truck would exist. When you leave the room, your furniture doesn't wink out of existence only the be perfectly restored when you come back...

17 years ago

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#354 Decessus

Member since 2003 • 5132 Posts

1. No I don't, because ultimately saying Coke is healthier than Pepsi is saying that Coke is better than Pepsi.

2. I grant you this, but despite your own subjective opinion, the truth is that, so long as you work for Coca-Cola, Coke is the better product. To say otherwise is the equivalent of treason in government, and punishable by your termination of your status with the company

3. But, if we were living in that reality, how could you prove to me that the ration was reduced instead of increased? All documentation prior to the reduction had been destroyed, and replaced with the new fact, that the ration was increased. The only way you could prove to me that it had been reduced would be through your memories, which in that reality, I would write off as a defective memory and report you to the thought police because the "almighty" word of Big Brother had been questioned.

4. But how could it? So far as we know, there would be no one left to experience it. How can something exist without the experience and memory of its existence? You could use that arguement against me for the above counter, but even still, that is not our reality, this is.

5. We experience different things in our realities, and just because we haven't experienced them doesn't mean they don't exist, yes, but that means that we haven't the experience of its existence, and thus is not part of my reality.
tycoonmike

1. No, they are not the same thing. The words "better" and "healthy" are not synonyms. They have completely different meanings.

2. You're analogy misses the point. Regardless of the consequences of the CEO's belief, if he believed that Pepsi was the better product, then he is right. If he believes that Coke is the better product, he is also right. The truth of a subjective statement, like your Coke being better example, is dependent upon the individual holding the belief. He is correct, whatever his belief about Coke or Pepsi, because of the subjective nature of the statement "X is better than Y".

3. Honestly, in the world of 1984, I probably couldn't prove that it was reduced. Again though, you are confusing truth with belief. Your belief is that the chocolate ration was increased. In truth however, it wasn't. Just because you believe something to be true, that doesn't mean it is in fact true.

4. The world exists independent of our experiencing it because we have no reason to believe otherwise. You are basically arguing that the world is nothing but a dream or an illusion. Such a thing is impossible to prove and serves no purpose so it's irrational to hold such a belief. It would be analogous to believing that the universe was really only created five minutes ago, everything was just setup so that it appeared otherwise. As human beings, if we ever hope to progress, we have to use logic and reason to determine what to consider knowledge, and what to consider frivolous information.

5. Saying the something is not a part of your reality is the same thing as saying your perception of reality is different than mine. If I grew up never have been taught that Africa existed, that would not mean that Africa didn't exist. Again, truth exists whether or not you believe in it. Reality is everything that exists, even those things that you have no knowledge of.

17 years ago

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#355 Decessus

Member since 2003 • 5132 Posts

*sigh* Not this again...

To the topic creator... kindly explain the logic in claiming that a supernatural entity can simply exist without a creator if our universe can not.

The simple fact of the matter is that we don't yet understand much about how the universe was created, and it may be a long time before we do. This does not mean that the universe had to have been created by supernatural means, nor does it discount a supernatural explanation. It's rather silly to claim either position is impossible when there is little evidence to support either position. Regardless of the position one takes, though, conventional logic MUST be abandoned, because only one of two apparent possibilities exist, both of which are 'illogical:'

1) The universe was created from nothing, either by supernatural or natural means.
2) The universe has always existed (note that if 1 is true, then this illogical claim pertains to the supernatural creator as well).

I'd love to know the answer to this question, but unless technology is developed to greatly extend human lifespans, I doubt any of us will know how the universe was created while we live.
pianist

I have to disagree that those are the only two possibilities. Another possibility is that the universe was created by some other means that we do not fully understand yet. There is much about the universe that we still don't know much about. Dark matter is something that I can think of off the top of my head. It wasn't until very recently that there was actually hard evidence for its existence. I'd be willing to be that there are things out there that we don't even realize exist yet.

17 years ago

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#356 pianist

Member since 2003 • 18900 Posts

[QUOTE="pianist"]*sigh* Not this again...

To the topic creator... kindly explain the logic in claiming that a supernatural entity can simply exist without a creator if our universe can not.

The simple fact of the matter is that we don't yet understand much about how the universe was created, and it may be a long time before we do. This does not mean that the universe had to have been created by supernatural means, nor does it discount a supernatural explanation. It's rather silly to claim either position is impossible when there is little evidence to support either position. Regardless of the position one takes, though, conventional logic MUST be abandoned, because only one of two apparent possibilities exist, both of which are 'illogical:'

1) The universe was created from nothing, either by supernatural or natural means.
2) The universe has always existed (note that if 1 is true, then this illogical claim pertains to the supernatural creator as well).

I'd love to know the answer to this question, but unless technology is developed to greatly extend human lifespans, I doubt any of us will know how the universe was created while we live.
Decessus

I have to disagree that those are the only two possibilities. Another possibility is that the universe was created by some other means that we do not fully understand yet. There is much about the universe that we still don't know much about. Dark matter is something that I can think of off the top of my head. It wasn't until very recently that there was actually hard evidence for its existence. I'd be willing to be that there are things out there that we don't even realize exist yet.

True enough... but if dark matter is responsible, it too would either have to exist infinitely or have been created from nothing. I understand and fully support your point, though, in that the answer may lie outside the realm of conventional logic.

17 years ago

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#357 Decessus

Member since 2003 • 5132 Posts

True enough... but if dark matter is responsible, it too would either have to exist infinitely or have been created from nothing. I understand and fully support your point, though, in that the answer may lie outside the realm of conventional logic.
pianist

Sorry, I think I wrote my last post in a somewhat confusing way. I didn't mean to suggest that dark matter was responsible for the creation of the universe. It was merely used as an example to show that there are still a lot of things that we don't fully understand. Also, since it is a fairly recent discovery, it was meant to show that there are probably many other things that exist that we have no current knowledge about.

17 years ago

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#358 pianist

Member since 2003 • 18900 Posts

[QUOTE="pianist"]
True enough... but if dark matter is responsible, it too would either have to exist infinitely or have been created from nothing. I understand and fully support your point, though, in that the answer may lie outside the realm of conventional logic.
Decessus

Sorry, I think I wrote my last post in a somewhat confusing way. I didn't mean to suggest that dark matter was responsible for the creation of the universe. It was merely used as an example to show that there are still a lot of things that we don't fully understand. Also, since it is a fairly recent discovery, it was meant to show that there are probably many other things that exist that we have no current knowledge about.

If you've got a third alternative, I'm all ears. :D

17 years ago

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#359 Decessus

Member since 2003 • 5132 Posts

If you've got a third alternative, I'm all ears. :D
pianist

I don't, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of there being a third alternative. Thus I think it's incorrect to say that there are only two possibilities.

Perhaps universes are created when other universes collide with each other.

17 years ago

1nno

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#360 1nno

Member since 2006 • 1181 Posts

Meh, bottom line is there's not enough scientific evidence to prove there is a god nor prove there isn't one. Stalemate. Scientists haven't even scraped the very top of earths discoveries let alone the creation of our universe.

17 years ago

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#361 pianist

Member since 2003 • 18900 Posts

[QUOTE="pianist"]

If you've got a third alternative, I'm all ears. :D
Decessus

I don't, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of there being a third alternative. Thus I think it's incorrect to say that there are only two possibilities.

Perhaps universes are created when other universes collide with each other.

... heh... begging the question "where did the univereses come from?"

All we really know is that the universe exists. Either it exists or it doesn't. Therefore, it must have always existed, or it did not exist at some point. If the former is true, it has existed infinitely. If the latter is true, whatever caused its existence had to originate from nothing. No matter what explanation a person develops, I don't think you can escape this 'binary' logic, simply because the universe (and its potential causes) must either exist or not exist. It's one of those black or white situations at its core.

17 years ago

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#362 Decessus

Member since 2003 • 5132 Posts

... heh... begging the question "where did the univereses come from?"

All we really know is that the universe exists. Either it exists or it doesn't. Therefore, it must have always existed, or it did not exist at some point. If the former is true, it has existed infinitely. If the latter is true, whatever caused its existence had to originate from nothing. No matter what explanation a person develops, I don't think you can escape this 'binary' logic, simply because the universe (and its potential causes) must either exist or not exist. It's one of those black or white situations at its core.
pianist

I suppose it depends on what you define as the "universe". I'm not a physicist so I may completely butcher this but according to string theory, multiple universes exist. The laws of physics could be different in these other universes. Thus, a universe would be defined as where the laws of physics are universal.

Of course, I could also just be talking about of my ***. 8) Most of this stuff is a little over my head.

17 years ago

194197844077667059316682358889

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#363 pianist

Member since 2003 • 18900 Posts

[QUOTE="pianist"]
... heh... begging the question "where did the univereses come from?"

All we really know is that the universe exists. Either it exists or it doesn't. Therefore, it must have always existed, or it did not exist at some point. If the former is true, it has existed infinitely. If the latter is true, whatever caused its existence had to originate from nothing. No matter what explanation a person develops, I don't think you can escape this 'binary' logic, simply because the universe (and its potential causes) must either exist or not exist. It's one of those black or white situations at its core.
Decessus

I suppose it depends on what you define as the "universe". I'm not a physicist so I may completely butcher this but according to string theory, multiple universes exist. The laws of physics could be different in these other universes. Thus, a universe would be defined as where the laws of physics are universal.

Of course, I could also just be talking about of my ***. 8) Most of this stuff is a little over my head.

Yes, that's one of the theories I've heard as well. But regardless of the laws of physics, the universes involved in the theory would also have to exist infinitely or have been created from nothing. Laws of physics are dependent on the universe to which they apply, but the logic that states something may only exist or not exist is not. No matter what universe you inhabit, and how strange the physical realities may be, 1+1 can't equal 3, and something can't "sort of exist."

Now, if physics in an alternate universe are such that something can arise from nothing, then this could potentially explain the creation of our universe. But the idea would still be considered illogical... and the universe to which that physical reality applied would itself be subject to the aforementioned logic regarding existence.

Such a fascinating subject... but I've got work to do. Good night.

17 years ago

#364 194197844077667059316682358889

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Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

[QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="pianist"]
... heh... begging the question "where did the univereses come from?"

All we really know is that the universe exists. Either it exists or it doesn't. Therefore, it must have always existed, or it did not exist at some point. If the former is true, it has existed infinitely. If the latter is true, whatever caused its existence had to originate from nothing. No matter what explanation a person develops, I don't think you can escape this 'binary' logic, simply because the universe (and its potential causes) must either exist or not exist. It's one of those black or white situations at its core.
pianist

I suppose it depends on what you define as the "universe". I'm not a physicist so I may completely butcher this but according to string theory, multiple universes exist. The laws of physics could be different in these other universes. Thus, a universe would be defined as where the laws of physics are universal.

Of course, I could also just be talking about of my ***. 8) Most of this stuff is a little over my head.

Yes, that's one of the theories I've heard as well. But regardless of the laws of physics, the universes involved in the theory would also have to exist infinitely or have been created from nothing. Laws of physics are dependent on the universe to which they apply, but the logic that states something may only exist or not exist is not. No matter what universe you inhabit, and how strange the physical realities may be, 1+1 can't equal 3, and something can't "sort of exist."

Now, if physics in an alternate universe are such that something can arise from nothing, then this could potentially explain the creation of our universe. But the idea would still be considered illogical... and the universe to which that physical reality applied would itself be subject to the aforementioned logic regarding existence.

Such a fascinating subject... but I've got work to do. Good night.

Of course 1+1 can equal 3; there are a variety of mathematical systems, it's just that the conventional arithmetic we know happens to correspond to our physical universe, but nothing forbids other universes from having different principles. Quantum mechanics in a broad sense says that all particles "sort of" exist, and our entire universe is absolutely full of virtual particle pairs spontaneously appearing and annihilating out of nothing.

17 years ago

withouthatred

194197844077667059316682358889

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#365 withouthatred

Member since 2006 • 6407 Posts

Of course 1+1 can equal 3; xaos

wait..wtf?

17 years ago

#366 194197844077667059316682358889

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Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

[QUOTE="xaos"]
Of course 1+1 can equal 3; withouthatred

wait..wtf?

1+1 = 2 is a matter of definition, one that happens to accord very well with physical reality, but there is nothing endemic to numbers that requires them to behave this way.

17 years ago

GTA_dude

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#367 GTA_dude

Member since 2004 • 18358 Posts

Then who created god? Did he appear out of nothing?

17 years ago

withouthatred

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#368 withouthatred

Member since 2006 • 6407 Posts

Then who created god? Did he appear out of nothing?GTA_dude

The pink invisible unicorn created him |:

17 years ago

mr111111

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#369 mr111111

Member since 2005 • 2840 Posts

I'll see yall in hell...this thread has made me an atheist...rofl jk

17 years ago

Alk3Catch22

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#371 Alk3Catch22

Member since 2005 • 469 Posts

I'll see yall in hell...this thread has made me an atheist...rofl jk
mr111111

that pic LMAO

17 years ago

Zaeryn

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#372 Zaeryn

Member since 2005 • 9070 Posts

[QUOTE="azargushasb"]
Before the big bang whier the universe started their was no time , space , or matter . HOW COULD THE UNIVERSE HAVE BEEN CREATED FROM NOTHINGNESS . YOU CANNOT CREATE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING . It it not one of the laws of psychics ? Their for their had to be a god to to create something from nothing . If you have a answer for me please tell me .
???
qetuo6

What created God?

Haha.. that's funny.. and a good question, even if I am partly christian.

17 years ago

mr111111

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#373 mr111111

Member since 2005 • 2840 Posts

[QUOTE="qetuo6"][QUOTE="azargushasb"]
Before the big bang whier the universe started their was no time , space , or matter . HOW COULD THE UNIVERSE HAVE BEEN CREATED FROM NOTHINGNESS . YOU CANNOT CREATE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING . It it not one of the laws of psychics ? Their for their had to be a god to to create something from nothing . If you have a answer for me please tell me .
???
Zaeryn

What created God?

Yer askin dangerous questions thar boy...lets just hope you dont make some enemies in the wrong places

17 years ago

withouthatred

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#374 withouthatred

Member since 2006 • 6407 Posts

[QUOTE="qetuo6"][QUOTE="azargushasb"]
Before the big bang whier the universe started their was no time , space , or matter . HOW COULD THE UNIVERSE HAVE BEEN CREATED FROM NOTHINGNESS . YOU CANNOT CREATE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING . It it not one of the laws of psychics ? Their for their had to be a god to to create something from nothing . If you have a answer for me please tell me .
???
Zaeryn

What created God?

Haha.. that's funny.. and a good question, even if I am partly christian.

I told you, the pink invisible unicorn;

Worship her pinkness!!!

17 years ago

tycoonmike

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#375 tycoonmike

Member since 2005 • 6082 Posts

1. No, they are not the same thing. The words "better" and "healthy" are not synonyms. They have completely different meanings.

2. You're analogy misses the point. Regardless of the consequences of the CEO's belief, if he believed that Pepsi was the better product, then he is right. If he believes that Coke is the better product, he is also right. The truth of a subjective statement, like your Coke being better example, is dependent upon the individual holding the belief. He is correct, whatever his belief about Coke or Pepsi, because of the subjective nature of the statement "X is better than Y".

3. Honestly, in the world of 1984, I probably couldn't prove that it was reduced. Again though, you are confusing truth with belief. Your belief is that the chocolate ration was increased. In truth however, it wasn't. Just because you believe something to be true, that doesn't mean it is in fact true.

4. The world exists independent of our experiencing it because we have no reason to believe otherwise. You are basically arguing that the world is nothing but a dream or an illusion. Such a thing is impossible to prove and serves no purpose so it's irrational to hold such a belief. It would be analogous to believing that the universe was really only created five minutes ago, everything was just setup so that it appeared otherwise. As human beings, if we ever hope to progress, we have to use logic and reason to determine what to consider knowledge, and what to consider frivolous information.

5. Saying the something is not a part of your reality is the same thing as saying your perception of reality is different than mine. If I grew up never have been taught that Africa existed, that would not mean that Africa didn't exist. Again, truth exists whether or not you believe in it. Reality is everything that exists, even those things that you have no knowledge of.
Decessus

1. And yet to say that one is healthier than the other is saying that one is better for you than the other? The word "better" has multiple meanings.

2. But then why are you punished for your opinion if it is your opinion, being something that is neither right nor wrong, that Pepsi is better than Coke if you work for Pepsi-Cola? Could it be because your belief is wrong so long as you work for the company?

3. But in that reality, the truth cannot be proven, thus how can it exist? The most you can do is hold onto that idea, that the ration was reduced, as a thiest holds onto the idea that their idea of God exists. It would be faith to believe such an idea, not the truth.

4. Couldn't it be, though? For all we know, this is the dream of God, and not the creation of God. Once He wakes up, we cease to exist until we are born (if we even are reborn) as true flesh and blood. Then again, how could we know that that world wasn't a dream as well? In this universe, anything is possible, you cannot just limit yourself to one belief, you have to see all the possibilities.

5. You're right, my perception of reality is different from yours, because of my belief of what reality is. Think of a circle with a bunch of other, far smaller, circles in the main one. The larger circle is reality, in its purest form, all truth lies within it, but hasn't been discovered yet. The smaller circles represent yours and my realities, or our perceptions of the whole. You're right to say that even though we can be taught that Africa doesn't exist, or any other continent, for that matter, the fact remains that it does indeed exist. But if we were taught that, it would be true, because it would both be out of of my experience, and I wouldn't bother to go looking for it, since I was taught that it doesn't exist, thus it would exist as truth to me.

This is otherwise known as religion, only reversed. Instead of not believing in God, I do believe in God, despite all the evidence shoved down my throat that supposedly disproves the intelligent design theory, I believe that God exists, and until it is proven to me that either He exists or He doesn't exist, I will continue to believe it. Even if I were given proof that, without a doubt, that God didn't exist, it's doubtful that I would believe it, just as someone who didn't believe that Africa and was taken to Africa for the first time wouldn't believe that this was Africa they were standing on.

17 years ago

Atrus

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#376 Atrus

Member since 2002 • 10422 Posts

As a couple of people have already shown here, the problem in the end comes down to the inability to properly categorize between "Existance" and "Non-Existence". Therefore, if we cannot prove that an entity exists/does not exist we cannot conceivably say it does/does not.

Because of Hume's dictum, we are divided into two seperate viewpoints: Realist and Nominalist of what we consider reality and therefore existence. Because of this ambiguity, we cannot really say that God does or does not exist, but we can however assert what is more probable is the truth and the maximal probability is the ultimate (perhaps unknowable) truth.

Let me explain the above a second:

{When I speak of highest probabilities dictating truth I mean that we know as true is only the highest probability of a given occurance. 1+1=2, but it is only true insofar as 1+1= !2, but the probability of 1+1=2 is so high, it is close or as close to the maximal truth to be true. The only way we could say 1+1=2 was the maximal truth was if we knew everything and there was no case where 1+1=!2.}

Like the example, we cannot discern the maximal truth to Gods existence, but the probabilities against his existence are high enough that we can ostensibly say that God very likely does not exist. This probability arising from the body of logic and reason that weighs against Gods possible existence. Even if a God being were to exist, rationale leads it
to become purposeless or at the very least, nowhere near the entity described in religion, especially Judeo-Christian ones.

Ultimately, statements citing that God does/does not exist are incorrect. Theism relying heavily on arguments that hold little logic or reason, and Atheists abandoning logic and reason when they think the gap between what is and what is expected is close enough to form a conclusion with. The most we can reasonably state is that God very likely does not exist or is purposeless.

17 years ago

DrummerJon

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#377 DrummerJon

Member since 2004 • 9668 Posts

[QUOTE="Zaeryn"][QUOTE="qetuo6"][QUOTE="azargushasb"]
Before the big bang whier the universe started their was no time , space , or matter . HOW COULD THE UNIVERSE HAVE BEEN CREATED FROM NOTHINGNESS . YOU CANNOT CREATE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING . It it not one of the laws of psychics ? Their for their had to be a god to to create something from nothing . If you have a answer for me please tell me .
???
withouthatred

What created God?

Haha.. that's funny.. and a good question, even if I am partly christian.

I told you, the pink invisible unicorn;

Worship her pinkness!!!

psh it was the FSM!

17 years ago

cheche321

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#378 cheche321

Member since 2006 • 494 Posts

Yeah I don't know what to believe anymore. I don't really believe in that Adam and Eve stuff because then how were there dinosaurs, and the Big Bang doesn't really make since because explosions usually don't create stuff.Trickshot771

there were dinasours and animals exept in the flood they all died

17 years ago

DrummerJon

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#379 DrummerJon

Member since 2004 • 9668 Posts

[QUOTE="Trickshot771"]Yeah I don't know what to believe anymore. I don't really believe in that Adam and Eve stuff because then how were there dinosaurs, and the Big Bang doesn't really make since because explosions usually don't create stuff.cheche321

there were dinasours and animals exept in the flood they all died

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/behemoth.html

17 years ago

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#380 Chessy_Nachos

Member since 2006 • 1563 Posts

[QUOTE="Half-life_Man"]If there was a big Bang, how would planets and Stars have the perfect amount of gravity, so that humans and animals dont drift to close to the sun and burn up or get too far away adn freeze? Also, why aren't people changing physically, scientists just threw on the millions of years to evolve thing so that it would brainwash people into accepting the theory. Finally, why do men have ribs that can be replaced if torn out (God took a rib from Adam to make Eve) and where would the most widly accepted religio in the world come from? if evolutionism was real, then some guys just settled down and threw a book together and called it the Bible. Not to mention all the things people found that had words written on it from BC times that talked about Christianity.Yarcofin

The Planets and stars don't need the "perfect amount of gravity. They naturally adjust and fall into an orbit. Or if they are big enough, they break out. Our solar system isn't perfect either. The moon is slowly drifting away from the Earth an inch at a time. The reason we don't burn away or freeze is because life developed here because it is an ideal planet. If Earth wasn't suitable for life we would have been on another planet. People are changing. The thing is that evolution takes millions of years, people don't just suddenly develop an extra set of arms, a huge brain and head, and x-men powers overnight. It takes time through a whole lot of mutations. Every human on Earth is mutating as we speak. "Why do men have ribs that can be replaced" .... wtf, they don't. The fact that men and women have an equal number of ribs instead of men having one less disproves the very bible you are trying to defend. Why did several hundred people all drink poison koolaid in a field and commit mass suicide in Jonestown? This is how a mind oppressed by religion works. Why do people consider Jedi their religion? Why are there thousands or possibly millions of "Pastafarians"? People believe because they are weak and need to believe because they wouldn't be able to hold it together otherwise. Also you can't use the bible as proof for God because that's the most biased proof you can muster, and is not considered a credible resource by any scientific or literary organization.

i think you missunderstood the rib thing the rib in humans is the only bone that can grow back if removed or damged serverly

17 years ago

medamaster8430

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#381 medamaster8430

Member since 2004 • 3674 Posts

Here we go again... I've seen like countless numbers of these topics... Please stop. (I'm not atheist)

17 years ago

Corvin

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#382 Corvin

Member since 2002 • 7266 Posts

[QUOTE="cheche321"][QUOTE="Trickshot771"]Yeah I don't know what to believe anymore. I don't really believe in that Adam and Eve stuff because then how were there dinosaurs, and the Big Bang doesn't really make since because explosions usually don't create stuff.DrummerJon

there were dinasours and animals exept in the flood they all died

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/behemoth.html

Coming from a page that promotes religeous beliefs, I found one really funny highly ironic quote that had me smiling: "If you are told something repeatedly year after year - you will begin to believe it. Even if it is not true."

17 years ago

Darthmatt

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#383 Darthmatt

Member since 2002 • 8970 Posts

First off, I don't believe in evolution, I accept it as a fact of biology. 2nd, do you understand quantum physics, or string theory? Do you know how a black hole works? Yet these things exist, and just because you don't understand how they exist does not make them impossible.

Another thing about the anti evolutionists. Why do they always persume to know what God intended? You would think that if God created all life on earth, that he would do it in a way that could be self suficient and able to adapt to its environment. If God is all powerful, why do they deny God the power to create a biological system that allow life-forms to change and improve over time? Or for life to develope on other worlds for that matter? If God created the universe and black holes and butterflies, then surely it would be nothing for him to create life anywhere else in the universe right? If you believe in God, but do not believe in evolution or the possibility of life outside of Earth, then you are short changing God and all his infinate abilities.

17 years ago

SolidSnake35

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#384 SolidSnake35

Member since 2005 • 58971 Posts

If God does exist, then I think he should retire, because he's not doing a very good job at the moment.

17 years ago

JimmyJimJim

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#385 JimmyJimJim

Member since 2003 • 2135 Posts

We don't know, but evolution makes alot more sense IMOzeroman089x2

Not really from all the evolution theories i've heard they all leave big loop holes that nobody seems to talk about. One of them that is the most commonly known is that we evolved from apes and over thousands and thousands of years those apes slowly evolved making slightly different apes with each couple generations until we got here. But what I think totally proves this theory wrong is the fact that for some reason all those slightly evolved apes that helped lead to us are for some reason not alive anymore yet the very first apes that started the evolution are still around today.... interesting :p.

17 years ago

JimmyJimJim

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#386 JimmyJimJim

Member since 2003 • 2135 Posts

First off, I don't believe in evolution, I accept it as a fact of biology. 2nd, do you understand quantum physics, or string theory? Do you know how a black hole works? Yet these things exist, and just because you don't understand how they exist does not make them impossible.

Another thing about the anti evolutionists. Why do they always persume to know what God intended? You would think that if God created all life on earth, that he would do it in a way that could be self suficient and able to adapt to its environment. If God is all powerful, why do they deny God the power to create a biological system that allow life-forms to change and improve over time? Or for life to develope on other worlds for that matter? If God created the universe and black holes and butterflies, then surely it would be nothing for him to create life anywhere else in the universe right? If you believe in God, but do not believe in evolution or the possibility of life outside of Earth, then you are short changing God and all his infinate abilities.
Darth matt

Yeah I thought that to but if you're a christian then it can't be true because it states in the bible evolution is fake basically :).

17 years ago

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#387 Chessy_Nachos

Member since 2006 • 1563 Posts

[QUOTE="Timstuff"]Real science-- things we can actually OBSERVE, like biology, chemestry, history, physics, and so forth all go hand in hand with what the bible has to say. The big bang and the theory of transient species however though, are only theory. They are not observeable, and therefor you have to make a descision based on what your personal beliefs are. No one was there when life began, so it all comes down to a matter of faith. Will you put your faith in the bible, or in the speculations of athiests?Decessus

I'm not sure if you know this or not, but the Big Bang Theory actually falls within the scope of physics.

Also, it's misleading to call something "only a theory." There is a difference between how scientists use the word theory, and how your average person uses the word. When your average layman uses the word "theory", they are generally referring to something along the lines of a guess. This isn't the same thing as a scientific theory however. A theory in science is based on reasoning, observation, and evidence.

It's also misleading to say that these sorts of things are not observable. One key aspect of any hypothesis is that it must be able to make predictions. Thus, based on a given hypothesis, we can expect certain results in the future. If we see those results, then that confirms the hypothesis. If we do not, then the hypothesis is either revised or discarded altogether.

I'm not a physicist so I don't know the specific evidence that supports the Big Bang. However, it would not be a theory if it wasn't backed up by a large amount of scientific evidence.

acually it is only supported by the thoery of relativty and the theory that light can shift up or down in the eletromagnetic spetrum as space contrats or expandes

17 years ago

JimmyJimJim

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#388 JimmyJimJim

Member since 2003 • 2135 Posts

If God does exist, then I think he should retire, because he's not doing a very good job at the moment.SolidSnake35

God doesn't control what we do, He may lead us in the right direction but in the end he gave us a free will to make our own decisions in hope we would make the right decision :D.

17 years ago

SolidSnake35

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#389 SolidSnake35

Member since 2005 • 58971 Posts

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"]If God does exist, then I think he should retire, because he's not doing a very good job at the moment.JimmyJimJim

God doesn't control what we do, He may lead us in the right direction but in the end he gave us a free will to make our own decisions in hope we would make the right decision :D.

He could help out a bit more though >_>

17 years ago

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#390 Chessy_Nachos

Member since 2006 • 1563 Posts

[QUOTE="Timstuff"] There's no such thing as a vestigal structure. Any "vestigal structure" you can name does actually have a purpose. If you think your tailbone is useless, I'll pay to have it removed. Just don't blame me when you can't take a crap.
Decessus

A vestigial structure is not a structure that has no purpose, although this can be the case. It is simply a structure that has lost all, or almost all of it's original purpose through evolution. An example would be the wings on an ostrich would be an example.

In humans, the tailbone is considered a vestigial structure. It is the remanents of the tail that our ancestors once possessed.

That is not edvidence becasue you dont know if it is the remanents of("Our ancestors" according to the theory of evolution) also mutations can only use information that is already there and scramble it like a cow that has 5 legs a cow cannot get gills because it not in the dna no matter how much mutations there are at least 3 changes in necotides is lethal e.g. cystis fibrouse and the supposed hip bone in humback whales is for them to mkae more whales

17 years ago

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#391 Mr_sprinkles

Member since 2005 • 6461 Posts

What makes me laugh about you creationists is that you don't think God was clever enough to build a universe that could evolve and develop by itself.

17 years ago

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#392 Chessy_Nachos

Member since 2006 • 1563 Posts

What makes me laugh about you creationists is that you don't think God was clever enough to build a universe that could evolve and develop by itself.Mr_sprinkles

He could but he would be a cruel god as evoution requires death to progress by Natural Selction or eles the genes would be mixed back into the group of organisms

17 years ago

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#393 Mr_sprinkles

Member since 2005 • 6461 Posts

[QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"]What makes me laugh about you creationists is that you don't think God was clever enough to build a universe that could evolve and develop by itself.Chessy_Nachos

He could but he would be a cruel god as evoution requires death to progress by Natural Selction or eles the genes would be mixed back into the group of organisms

erm... don't things die anyway? natural selection or not.

17 years ago

kruegersc4

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#394 kruegersc4

Member since 2004 • 1985 Posts

Before the big bang whier the universe started their was no time , space , or matter . HOW COULD THE UNIVERSE HAVE BEEN CREATED FROM NOTHINGNESS . YOU CANNOT CREATE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING . It it not one of the laws of psychics ? Their for their had to be a god to to create something from nothing . If you have a answer for me please tell me .
???
azargushasb

As far as before the big bang, there was probably a bigger picture we don't yet understand. Someday we may figure it out, just like when we thought the world was flat. However, if you believe in a god, I'm cool with that, as long as you don't go around saying science is fake and trying to 'save' people.

17 years ago

Darthmatt

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#395 Darthmatt

Member since 2002 • 8970 Posts

[QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"]What makes me laugh about you creationists is that you don't think God was clever enough to build a universe that could evolve and develop by itself.Chessy_Nachos

He could but he would be a cruel god as evoution requires death to progress by Natural Selction or eles the genes would be mixed back into the group of organisms

So what does the book of Job tell us about God's cruelty? That we shouldn't question it!

17 years ago

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#396 Mr_sprinkles

Member since 2005 • 6461 Posts

[QUOTE="Chessy_Nachos"][QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"]What makes me laugh about you creationists is that you don't think God was clever enough to build a universe that could evolve and develop by itself.Darth matt

He could but he would be a cruel god as evoution requires death to progress by Natural Selction or eles the genes would be mixed back into the group of organisms

So what does the book of Job tell us about God's cruelty? That we shouldn't question it!

a better answer than mine :wink:

17 years ago

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#397 Chessy_Nachos

Member since 2006 • 1563 Posts

[QUOTE="Chessy_Nachos"][QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"]What makes me laugh about you creationists is that you don't think God was clever enough to build a universe that could evolve and develop by itself.Mr_sprinkles

He could but he would be a cruel god as evoution requires death to progress by Natural Selction or eles the genes would be mixed back into the group of organisms

erm... don't things die anyway? natural selection or not.

yes but to advance the mutations in the theory it praise death so the genes dont get mixed back in the unmutated population for macro evolution to occur as it says in the bible god even cares for the sparrow in the field how much more does he care abot humanity.

There is microevolution but mutations can only scramble information that is already there and not make new info like a dog can breed with a wolf becasue they are the same kind of animal and have fertile offspring just like zebras and horses

17 years ago

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#398 Mr_sprinkles

Member since 2005 • 6461 Posts

[QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"][QUOTE="Chessy_Nachos"][QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"]What makes me laugh about you creationists is that you don't think God was clever enough to build a universe that could evolve and develop by itself.Chessy_Nachos

He could but he would be a cruel god as evoution requires death to progress by Natural Selction or eles the genes would be mixed back into the group of organisms

erm... don't things die anyway? natural selection or not.

yes but to advance the mutations in the theory it praise death so the genes dont get mixed back in the unmutated population for macro evolution to occur as it says in the bible god even cares for the sparrow in the field how much more does he care abot humanity.

There is microevolution but mutations can only scramble information that is already there and not make new info like a dog can breed with a wolf becasue they are the same kind of animal and have fertile offspring just like zebras and horses

You haven't really grasped what this evolution business is about, have you?

17 years ago

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#399 Chessy_Nachos

Member since 2006 • 1563 Posts

[QUOTE="Chessy_Nachos"][QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"]What makes me laugh about you creationists is that you don't think God was clever enough to build a universe that could evolve and develop by itself.Darth matt

He could but he would be a cruel god as evoution requires death to progress by Natural Selction or eles the genes would be mixed back into the group of organisms

So what does the book of Job tell us about God's cruelty? That we shouldn't question it!

God did not do that to Job the book of Job is saying that bad things happen to all people whether they are bad or good on earth lucifer did that to job and the bad infulence of Jobs friend which god points out that they were wrong.

God did not let satan touch his life

17 years ago

Darthmatt