What exactly defines an RPG?

Nowdays hundreds of games like to call themselves RPGs because they have levelling, story choices, or open-ended sandbox world. Likewise when many games ( Mass Effect 2 , for example ) lose certain of their characteristics people argue they're not RPGs anymore.

What exactly defines an RPG?

Story choices and different endings? In that case, Mass Effect 2 would certainly qualify as RPG.

Is it creating your own character to follow any path you want? If so, even ME1 , which most people qualify as RPG, shouldn't be considered one.

Is it stats allocation and skill trees? In that case, would the likes of Path of Exile and Diablo be a "truer" RPG than ME2?

Or is it a combination of all above? ( Dark Souls, Morrowind... )

What makes a RPG, for you guys?

I am not sure if this is the right forum (legacy platforms).

Skyrim

But it's something we all discuss from time to time, and we all have differing opinions on what makes a Legacy game an RPG.

Story choices and different endings?

No. lots of Action-Adventure's and shooter's have story branches and multiple endings. The existence of which does not make the game a Roleplayer. Heck, you could even say Outrun has branches and multiple endings!

Is it stats allocation and skill trees?

No. Again, Action-Adventure's and shooters also have these functions ocassionally. And a large portion of RTS's have skill trees, and stat/resource allocation.

Is it creating your own character to follow any path you want?

Mostly this. While you're not always given the option of creating an entirely new character, the one you're given should be a 'base-model' for you to evolve and upgrade however you wish. Also the world in which your character develops should not be linear and existent solely because of the Primary quests/missions. Because you're supposed to be playing your own role, not watching the developer's idea of what you should be.

Admittedly i also fall into the laziness of referring to games as RPG's when they're not (Fantasy Action-Adventure's are most commonly misidentified), but it's almost an industry standard that swords and sorcery + levelling = RPG.

Levels are no different to Achievements, they give the player a sense of getting somewhere from the hours they're putting in, sometimes they offer rewards too.

Short version: A game that plonks you in the middle of a world/land, tells you who the next big-bad is, then leaves you to figure out how you're going to go about finding it, preparing yourself and where you're going to start looking; that's an RPG.

There aren't actually very many of them and it would be a niche-genre if it wasn't so misused.

But it's something we all discuss from time to time, and we all have differing opinions on what makes a Legacy game an RPG.

Story choices and different endings?BarbaricAvatar

No. lots of Action-Adventure's and shooter's have story branches and multiple endings. The existence of which does not make the game a Roleplayer. Heck, you could even say Outrun has branches and multiple endings!

 

Is it stats allocation and skill trees?

No. Again, Action-Adventure's and shooters also have these functions ocassionally. And a large portion of RTS's have skill trees, and stat/resource allocation.

 

Is it creating your own character to follow any path you want?

Mostly this. While you're not always given the option of creating an entirely new character, the one you're given should be a 'base-model' for you to evolve and upgrade however you wish. Also the world in which your character develops should not be linear and existent solely because of the Primary quests/missions. Because you're supposed to be playing your own role, not watching the developer's idea of what you should be.

 

Admittedly i also fall into the laziness of referring to games as RPG's when they're not (Fantasy Action-Adventure's are most commonly misidentified), but it's almost an industry standard that swords and sorcery + levelling = RPG.

Levels are no different to Achievements, they give the player a sense of getting somewhere from the hours they're putting in, sometimes they offer rewards too.

 

Short version: A game that plonks you in the middle of a world/land, tells you who the next big-bad is, then leaves you to figure out how you're going to go about finding it, preparing yourself and where you're going to start looking; that's an RPG.

There aren't actually very many of them and it would be a niche-genre if it wasn't so misused.

 

 

 

 

 

[QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]

But it's something we all discuss from time to time, and we all have differing opinions on what makes a Legacy game an RPG.

Story choices and different endings?Lulu_Lulu

No. lots of Action-Adventure's and shooter's have story branches and multiple endings. The existence of which does not make the game a Roleplayer. Heck, you could even say Outrun has branches and multiple endings!

 

Is it stats allocation and skill trees?

No. Again, Action-Adventure's and shooters also have these functions ocassionally. And a large portion of RTS's have skill trees, and stat/resource allocation.

 

Is it creating your own character to follow any path you want?

Mostly this. While you're not always given the option of creating an entirely new character, the one you're given should be a 'base-model' for you to evolve and upgrade however you wish. Also the world in which your character develops should not be linear and existent solely because of the Primary quests/missions. Because you're supposed to be playing your own role, not watching the developer's idea of what you should be.

 

Admittedly i also fall into the laziness of referring to games as RPG's when they're not (Fantasy Action-Adventure's are most commonly misidentified), but it's almost an industry standard that swords and sorcery + levelling = RPG.

Levels are no different to Achievements, they give the player a sense of getting somewhere from the hours they're putting in, sometimes they offer rewards too.

 

Short version: A game that plonks you in the middle of a world/land, tells you who the next big-bad is, then leaves you to figure out how you're going to go about finding it, preparing yourself and where you're going to start looking; that's an RPG.

There aren't actually very many of them and it would be a niche-genre if it wasn't so misused.

 

 

 

 

 

Extra Credits did a great video series on this when they touched on the differences between J/WRGPs and the 'RPG' part.  I highly urge people to watch it as touches well on obscure concepts like abnegation. 

Well, a really high percentage of Gs have an R that you P so singling out what makes something part of the RPG genre is kind of difficult. I feel like it is a connection to tabletop role playing games (Dungeons & Dragons, etc.) that is really what defines the genre. I think of this mostly as being the ability to customize your character. Tabletop RPGs nearly always start w/ you building your character from scratch. You also level up based on experience and get to pick your own gear out of a wide variety of available (or potentially available) items. Skill trees and the like are all part of this customization.

This being said, in video games, games that diverge from the tabletop paradigm in very signifigant ways are still considered RPGs (esp. when it comes to older console-style RPGs). In lots of games that are considered classics, you don't really get to customize your main character at all before the game begins. You do most always get whole loads of customization options one the game begins though.

To me, whether a game is an RPG is dependent on how much stats and character growth/customization matter. If stats and character growth/customization are just as important or more important than player skill, you're looking at an RPG.

For instance, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has stats, but it is not an RPG. Why? Because those stats don't really matter much. If your stats never increased, you would still be able to beat the game. In an RPG, you typically can't progress without increasing your stats.

To me, whether a game is an RPG is dependent on how much stats and character growth/customization matter. If stats and character growth/customization are just as important or more important than player skill, you're looking at an RPG.

For instance, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has stats, but it is not an RPG. Why? Because those stats don't really matter much. If your stats never increased, you would still be able to beat the game. In an RPG, you typically can't progress without increasing your stats.

GreySeal9

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

To me, whether a game is an RPG is dependent on how much stats and character growth/customization matter. If stats and character growth/customization are just as important or more important than player skill, you're looking at an RPG.

For instance, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has stats, but it is not an RPG. Why? Because those stats don't really matter much. If your stats never increased, you would still be able to beat the game. In an RPG, you typically can't progress without increasing your stats.

AcidSoldner

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

To me, whether a game is an RPG is dependent on how much stats and character growth/customization matter. If stats and character growth/customization are just as important or more important than player skill, you're looking at an RPG.

For instance, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has stats, but it is not an RPG. Why? Because those stats don't really matter much. If your stats never increased, you would still be able to beat the game. In an RPG, you typically can't progress without increasing your stats.

NationProtector

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"][QUOTE="NationProtector"] So Adventure games are rpgs now?NationProtector

[QUOTE="NationProtector"][QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]Can you elaborate on that? Adventure covers such a broad genre and cross-genre of games that it's hard to know what you're referring to. Got any specific examples?AcidSoldner

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]

[QUOTE="NationProtector"] Point and click.NationProtector

I'm going to say this for a 3rd time: stat based character growth AND inventory management/customization. Not just one or the other, BOTH.

To me the term RPG is more of a formality than anything. When someone says RPG, you usually think "levelling up, fighting monsters in a fantasy world, etc."

[QUOTE="NationProtector"][QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]No. Unless you can give me a specific example of the genre that has both stat based character growth + inventory management/customization (which I stated in my original post).

AcidSoldner

I'm going to say this for a 3rd time: stat based character growth AND inventory management/customization. Not just one or the other, BOTH.

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]

[QUOTE="NationProtector"] So you're saying that the management system, that is the core of many adventure games that are point in click, do not count as inventory management? What point and clicks have you played? NationProtector

I'm going to say this for a 3rd time: stat based character growth AND inventory management/customization. Not just one or the other, BOTH.

My experience with the genre isn't as expansive as others but I have yet to play one that encompasses both of those as core features in the gameplay.

Let me break down my definitions for you:

Stat based character growth: Character growth determined by the gain of experience through either defeating enemies in combat and/or completing quests. "Leveling up" is a result of this in which the character is allocated stat points to various attributes either manually or automatically. Abilites and spells are also gaining through leveling up and are either gained automatically or chosen through some form/variation of a skill tree.

Inventory management/customization: Gathering of loot, items, and equipment through either combat or quests. Equipment custimization enhances the attributes and skills of said character.

If you can find me a point & click that meets those criteria, I'll retract my statements.

To me, whether a game is an RPG is dependent on how much stats and character growth/customization matter. If stats and character growth/customization are just as important or more important than player skill, you're looking at an RPG.

For instance, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has stats, but it is not an RPG. Why? Because those stats don't really matter much. If your stats never increased, you would still be able to beat the game. In an RPG, you typically can't progress without increasing your stats.

GreySeal9

But now that RPG's are on a technological platform the can ,to some extent, simulate combat encounters in a more practical way, so theres no need for that stats & leveling anymore, the definition of an RPG is needs to evolve with the changing times, lest we wana still be using stats that are no longer a necessity in our Holographstation 2's in the future.

[QUOTE="NationProtector"][QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]Reread my post.

I'm going to say this for a 3rd time: stat based character growth AND inventory management/customization. Not just one or the other, BOTH.

AcidSoldner

My experience with the genre isn't as expansive as others but I have yet to play one that encompasses both of those as core features in the gameplay.

Let me break down my definitions for you:

Stat based character growth: Character growth determined by the gain of experience through either defeating enemies in combat and/or completing quests. "Leveling up" is a result of this in which the character is allocated stat points to various attributes either manually or automatically. Abilites and spells are also gaining through leveling up and are either gained automatically or chosen through some form/variation of a skill tree.

Inventory management/customization: Gathering of loot, items, and equipment through either combat or quests. Equipment custimization enhances the attributes and skills of said character.

If you can find me a point & click that meets those criteria, I'll retract my statements.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

To me, whether a game is an RPG is dependent on how much stats and character growth/customization matter. If stats and character growth/customization are just as important or more important than player skill, you're looking at an RPG.

For instance, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has stats, but it is not an RPG. Why? Because those stats don't really matter much. If your stats never increased, you would still be able to beat the game. In an RPG, you typically can't progress without increasing your stats.

Lulu_Lulu

But now that RPG's are on a technological platform the can ,to some extent, simulate combat encounters in a more practical way, so theres no need for that stats & leveling anymore, the definition of an RPG is needs to evolve with the changing times, lest we wana still be using stats that are no longer a necessity in our Holographstation 2's in the future.

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]

[QUOTE="NationProtector"] So you're saying that the management system, that is the core of many adventure games that are point in click, do not count as inventory management? What point and clicks have you played? NationProtector

I'm going to say this for a 3rd time: stat based character growth AND inventory management/customization. Not just one or the other, BOTH.

What exactly do you mean by 'stats' in pointie clickies? I've played loads of them and have never encountered any with adjustable stats.

[QUOTE="NationProtector"][QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]Reread my post.

I'm going to say this for a 3rd time: stat based character growth AND inventory management/customization. Not just one or the other, BOTH.

BarbaricAvatar

What exactly do you mean by 'stats' in pointie clickies? I've played loads of them and have never encountered any with adjustable stats.

[QUOTE="Lulu_Lulu"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

To me, whether a game is an RPG is dependent on how much stats and character growth/customization matter. If stats and character growth/customization are just as important or more important than player skill, you're looking at an RPG.

For instance, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has stats, but it is not an RPG. Why? Because those stats don't really matter much. If your stats never increased, you would still be able to beat the game. In an RPG, you typically can't progress without increasing your stats.

NationProtector

But now that RPG's are on a technological platform the can ,to some extent, simulate combat encounters in a more practical way, so theres no need for that stats & leveling anymore, the definition of an RPG is needs to evolve with the changing times, lest we wana still be using stats that are no longer a necessity in our Holographstation 2's in the future.

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]

[QUOTE="NationProtector"] So there are no stats in point and click adventure games? How many point and click games have you played?NationProtector

My experience with the genre isn't as expansive as others but I have yet to play one that encompasses both of those as core features in the gameplay.

Let me break down my definitions for you:

Stat based character growth: Character growth determined by the gain of experience through either defeating enemies in combat and/or completing quests. "Leveling up" is a result of this in which the character is allocated stat points to various attributes either manually or automatically. Abilites and spells are also gaining through leveling up and are either gained automatically or chosen through some form/variation of a skill tree.

Inventory management/customization: Gathering of loot, items, and equipment through either combat or quests. Equipment custimization enhances the attributes and skills of said character.

If you can find me a point & click that meets those criteria, I'll retract my statements.

Quest for Glory series is specificall labled as an adventure game/role-playing video game hybrid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_Glory_IV:_Shadows_of_Darkness

So yeah, that specific example is definitely an RPG. Point & click adventure games in general? No.

[QUOTE="NationProtector"][QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]Reread my post.

I'm going to say this for a 3rd time: stat based character growth AND inventory management/customization. Not just one or the other, BOTH.

BarbaricAvatar

What exactly do you mean by 'stats' in pointie clickies? I've played loads of them and have never encountered any with adjustable stats.

[QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]

[QUOTE="NationProtector"] So there are no stats in point and click adventure games? How many point and click games have you played?AcidSoldner

What exactly do you mean by 'stats' in pointie clickies? I've played loads of them and have never encountered any with adjustable stats.

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"][QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]

 

What exactly do you mean by 'stats' in pointie clickies? I've played loads of them and have never encountered any with adjustable stats.

NationProtector

[QUOTE="NationProtector"][QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]

My experience with the genre isn't as expansive as others but I have yet to play one that encompasses both of those as core features in the gameplay.

Let me break down my definitions for you:

Stat based character growth: Character growth determined by the gain of experience through either defeating enemies in combat and/or completing quests. "Leveling up" is a result of this in which the character is allocated stat points to various attributes either manually or automatically. Abilites and spells are also gaining through leveling up and are either gained automatically or chosen through some form/variation of a skill tree.

Inventory management/customization: Gathering of loot, items, and equipment through either combat or quests. Equipment custimization enhances the attributes and skills of said character.

If you can find me a point & click that meets those criteria, I'll retract my statements.

AcidSoldner

Quest for Glory series is specificall labled as an adventure game/role-playing video game hybrid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_Glory_IV:_Shadows_of_Darkness

So yeah, that specific example is definitely an RPG. Point & click adventure games in general? No.

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]

[QUOTE="NationProtector"] are you breaking anything down? you asked that adventure games had both, I said how many you did not play, you said not very many, and now that translates to I don't understand what you're definitions mean? I don't see what you're trying to do here but make longer posts for no reason. Quest fo Glory, there's an example. Specifically the 4th game, since it's one of my favorites.NationProtector

Quest for Glory series is specificall labled as an adventure game/role-playing video game hybrid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_Glory_IV:_Shadows_of_Darkness

So yeah, that specific example is definitely an RPG. Point & click adventure games in general? No.

The Longest Journey

Monkey Island 1, 2, 3

Syberia 1, 2

Full Throttle

Simon the Sorceror 1, 2

The Dig

Machinarium

Day of the Tentacle

Sam and Max Hit the Road

Beneath a Steel Sky

Flight of the Amazon Queen

-

None of these have stats or anything resembling stats. And are definitely not roleplaying with any stretch of the imagination.

The Longest Journey

Monkey Island 1, 2, 3

Syberia 1, 2

Full Throttle

Simon the Sorceror 1, 2

The Dig

Machinarium

Day of the Tentacle

Sam and Max Hit the Road

Beneath a Steel Sky

Flight of the Amazon Queen

-

None of these have stats or anything resembling stats. And are definitely not roleplaying with any stretch of the imagination.

BarbaricAvatar

[QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]

The Longest Journey

Monkey Island 1, 2, 3

Syberia 1, 2

Full Throttle

Simon the Sorceror 1, 2

The Dig

Machinarium

Day of the Tentacle

Sam and Max Hit the Road

Beneath a Steel Sky

Flight of the Amazon Queen

-

None of these have stats or anything resembling stats. And are definitely not roleplaying with any stretch of the imagination.

NationProtector

Of course not because they're Point 'n Click games. I don't know what the list of games you've named are but i've never heard of the majority of them despite my great interest in the genre. So they're most likely not. ;)

Oh boy, I don't think I've seen seen a more adamant disagreement on a subject on this message board. This isn't gonna be a pretty thread.

I think the main requirements of an RPG are that they have to be heavily story based, and you also have to be able to level up your characters and use magic! Also they need to contain wierd monsters like orcs, goblins or dragons or whatever. I dont particularly like the RPG genre apart from some WPRGS like Skyrim but I guess we all have our own tastes!

Wouldn't that definition disqualify games like The Witcher 2 as RPGs then?

DragonSphere
Dreamweb
Glass Rose
Elviria
Innocent until caught
Guilty
Harvester
Hell: a Cyberpunk thriller
KGB

are a few.NationProtector

The only game from that list I've played is Glass Rose, and I don't remember it having any RPG-like stats.

I think the main requirements of an RPG are that they have to be heavily story based, and you also have to be able to level up your characters and use magic! Also they need to contain wierd monsters like orcs, goblins or dragons or whatever. I dont particularly like the RPG genre apart from some WPRGS like Skyrim but I guess we all have our own tastes!

I-AM-N00B

Although alot of the Rpg games contains magic, dwarf, elfs and some sort of version of Tolkien's "Lord of the rings" , that does not mean that this has to be the only Rpg requirement. You can easily have a Rpg that is set in our reality, or AU, or space. As long as you get to define and play a role without to much interferrence from the game developer. Player agency is the most important in an rpg imho.

I agree that there has to be  a focus on story and also the npc characters. The world around you should react to your characters choices and actions.

Linear or open, an RPG is defined by giving a large amount of freedom to how a player may accomplish the goals at hand. Just my opinion.

Oh boy, I don't think I've seen seen a more adamant disagreement on a subject on this message board. This isn't gonna be a pretty thread.

Emerald_Warrior

It got pretty nasty when we were arguing over shmups back in January.

People need to stop holding on to the past, and their little definition of what an RPG was to them at a certain time. To some it's a D&D-based game, to others it's a JRPG, and others accept action-RPGs. And then there's even strategy-RPGs.

They're all RPGs. The RPG genre, like anything else, has evolved and expanded over the years. That's why we have all these different sub-genres of RPG out there.