The Point - Yogscast's Cancelled Kickstarter & The Missing Half A Million

500k $ isn't exactly much money, in order to have six progammers, graphic-designers etc work for two years on a project - especially if you also have to rend working space, to buy and license hardware and software from the very same money.

People have to understand that creating an ambitioned, open-world 3D-game isn't cheap by any stretch.

And to all the "very smart people" rambling about on how "Kickstarter is a scam": Most games financed through Kidstarter and similar platforms actually see a release.

Many of the people who follow yogcast are younger kids part of the minecraft culture.

It would suck if it was adults but chances are, a lot of these are young kids.

whats even more irritating is that they only asked for half the money they got and could not finish the project with double.

This whole situation really underlines some of the fundamental problems of Kickstarter. For example It's T&Cs only oblige the creator of the project to give out refunds - if the creator, for example, gives a third party a big chunk of cash up front for "licencing" or "consultancy" and then shuts down, there's nobody left liable to pay out refunds. Meanwhile, the third party gets to keep all their cash.

Also, while the terms say backers should get refunds in the event of cancellation, there are already plenty of examples of where that hasn't happened - and to be fair, giving full refunds to all backers would sort of require that those running the project still had all the money they were pledged, which isn't likely.

I'm not a frequent backer of crowd-funded projects, but when I do, I try and do it on the basis that I'd be comfortable with the possibility of never getting anything in return for my money. That's kind of sad, but at least that way I'm treating it like a donation rather than a pre-purchase.

The whole Yogcast thing has been so badly handled though - It's hard to believe they still thought this was achiveable for so long.

when I first heard about kickstarter I thought to myself, what a great new way to rip off people, no more sitting all day long in the streets begging, or washing car windows ... no, just convince people into sending you money for stuff you will never do

my only problem is, I am not a greedy and egoistic person wich does not give a dam.n about other people ... so I cant really make use of Kickstarter :-/

man, do americans love g.ay jokes or what?

Leaves a very bitter taste this

Tis part of the gamble you take if you back up a kick starter. Just because it reaches it's goal doesn't mean it'll reach release. Leaving these gamers out of pocket is not acceptable though. Yogscast are responsible, they put their name to it, endorsed it, they officially approved it, even advertised it, it was their game just being made by someone else. If no one can go after the actual developer then they should go after yogscast.

Stuff like this can chase people away from Kickstarter lets hope they get a full refund.

There is an old Mega64 video about kickstarter. I guess that's where yogscast took his inspiration from

No one should invest in something they can't trust or research, especially on the internet, right now this just looks like an elaborate internet hustle and they just got their payday.

Kick starter is the new legally scam gig, you be very lucky if they did hold on their end of the bargain.

"I'm un-sure what the rest of the money the Yogscast received was actually spent on but I do remember at some point they referred to it as their licensing fee. Hopefully it went to making better rewards though."

Keep in mind, the similar game all the backers are getting access to as compensation/charity is called TUG.

A game that was also Kickstarted, but only made $293k.

Yogventures - $567k in May 2012

> Dead project never made it into a commercially viable state

TUG - $293k in May 2013

> In Steam Early Access right now

Sounds to me like the indie developers THOUGHT they could make it, worked on it and spent all the money, but never finished it. Do I believe the Yogscast got a cut? Yeah I know they did. ...and Did a little reasearch myself and went to the Kickstarter page myself.. The WinterKewl guy basically laid out that he spent it all and didn't know how to managed the money. So, considering he's got all the physical assets (computers), he's the only one with assets that can be liquidated to pay for refunds.

As for the digital assets: all the things that have already been put into the game we'll see what Lewis (who probably is raging over this atm) plans to do.

I never enjoyed yogscast's content, but I really didn't actively dislike them... That is until now. If I ever have the displeasure of meeting these guys in the streets, I'd inconspicuously throw them under a bus.

"Surely, this tiny team couldn't have spent it all".

Really? It's 500k. They were 6 people, over two years.

That amounts to a bit over 40k per person per year.... it's a modest salary.

The money's obviously all been spent.

I really, really, do -not- appreciate Yogscast's attempts to distance themselves from this debacle.

I am going to say here that I am glad that I had never followed their YouTube channels in the first place.

(I knew of them through Sanctum's free Yogscave DLC though. Even though it was free, I now feel dirty about ever having played that.)

its a kickstarter, enter at your own risk. BUt make sure you call the individuals out, because you dont want to set a standard where kickstarter projects can make a few million and then just ditch everyone and just run away with the cash.

Did Danny give his hair grey highlights or something? Or is it just me? :P

Also this issue highlights why I stay the hell away from Kickstarter/crowd funding. Although I love the concept, until I see enough games or products that come out the other end and fully realise their potential and value (to me at least), I'll hold on to my money. I suppose if Star Citizen turns out to be a monumental success then I might be a believer, but it will be years before that will be become clear.

This was his post today in that forum -

"no one here is saying people are not entitled to a refund. please stop assuming and putting words in people's mouths. some people have already received refunds, and they are entitled to ask for them.

Like several other people here, I'm of a mixed mind about this. I back quite a few KS projects and I understand if they go belly up I get zip. I'm not up on these Yogspeople, so I can only hope I would have been wise enough to have seen the risks of the project and not backed. But if I did, I'd take my losses. I'd be disappointed, but not looking to sue unless I really did believe that they were defrauding us.

All of that said, I also think its pretty low of them to throw the game dev under the bus that brutally. There is what they are legally obligated to do on the one hand and what good ethics says they ought to do on the other. They could at least generate real sympathy and remorse, even if they didn't cough up $500K. And giving some clear answers on where the money went and what their involvement was would go a long way to shoring up their credibility. But I suppose they don't really care about that. Sad.

I hope it doesn't serve to scare people completely away from Kickstarter though. There's a lot of great stuff going on there. I have FTL, Shadowrun Returns, Divinity: Original Sin, and Wasteland 2 all in hand now, and they are all very good. Lots of others that are still in development also are looking great. Even if a project or two that I backed ultimately failed or produced a lousy game, on balance I'd say its still a great experience.

Just wanted to make one little point about the "missing" $500k, not a defense in any way, just a point :).

Often in the past gamers have been told by industry people and the press they are clueless about how much it costs to make games, it's been used in defense of game developers, in some cases specifically regarding Kickstarter projects. This has even happened directly to commenters on Gamespot.

So I find it just a slight bit unfair that this video leans heavily towards the implication that the money wasn't spent in good faith on trying, but ultimately failing, to create the game. Especially when we don't have any real evidence at this time, just speculation based on the team size and such. Posing the questions is fine, but the tone felt more like flat out stating this is probably what happened.

While I'm quite certain this is a project gone wrong, I'd agree the ones who donated ought to know what their money went towards. Are they legally or morally obligated to provide them refunds, perhaps. They likely generate enough revenue to allow it and Kickstarter probably has records of who gave how much. I also dislike how they've thrown the developer under the bus when they could've stood up and taken partial blame. And this from someone who watches their video's often. They've handled this poorly and In my opinion the project was doomed from the start.

With that said I hope this makes people open their eyes to Kickstarter and perhaps even "early releases", it's risky and you're giving money towards something that in a few cases are finished, most often are canceled or left in development cause the developers realize that finishing the product is a loss. This was one of those cases and while I partially feel bad for those that gave ten grand towards the project, I can't help but think " They can't have been so naive to think there was no risk involved"

If it however turns out people are that naive to Kickstarter projects then either there needs to be given contracts that ensure full or partial refund if the project fails or we're simply not ready to take the role of a investor and take the gamble. And since I highly doubt the contract route would be implemented then I hope this stands as something to have jerked the naive awake.

Personally I don't believe that any Kickstarter backer deserves a refund for a failed project (unless there is firm evidence of criminal actions, fraud etc), just as any investor who speculates on the stock market or funds capital for a business there are risks adherent to all types of investment. And that is exactly what crowdfunding is, an investment that carries risk that MAY not produce any dividends.

I think there's a common misconception that crowdfunding is the same as purchasing, and that consumer (and advocacy) law should offer the same protections to backers. There should be more information available to educate backers on risk, and more to the point to not invest any amount of money that you cannot potentially afford to lose.

What backers DO deserve is a transparent and detailed account of how the funds raised were put to use and perhaps tighter controls on how funds are released to projects, eg increments based on regular project updates .

Seems like Kickstarter should be enforcing policy.

I get the sense Winterkewl oversold their capabilities and were in fake-it-'til-you-make-it mode until Yogscast got wise it backed the wrong horse for developing their game and pulled the plug. Winterkewl's man in charge probably knew he was in in too deep early, thought gobs of cash would fix most problems and tapped danced around missed deadlines and completion targets for as long as he possibly could.

For their part, I'd guess the folks at Yogscast thought splashing around (or lending) their brand-name cachet was all the "investment" that was really necessary, had other things to do, and knew more about "let's plays" than what it actually takes to build a game that's worth a damn. Whatever mumbo jumbo they were told whenever they checked in probably sufficed and whoever was the YC liaison to Winterkewl personally liked and rooted for the guys making the game.

Either Winterkewl pitched the game to Yogscast and they "bought in", or Yogscast hired and commissioned Winterkewl to make them their game. Does anyone know? To me, that's where the most important distinction for culpability resides.

I think, in this case, the road to hell was paved with good intentions; both parties were naive enough to think money was all that was needed, but nobody on either side knew what the hell they were doing. Simple as that.

Lol, they took the money and ran.

It was bound to happen

Great video once again Danny- you are on a freaking roll! Keep looking out for us, and keep keeping em honest.

between oculus rift, and these asshats kickstarter isnt looking so good. people want reassurances when they're throwing their hard earned(?) monies around.

this feels like the first serious news piece I have seen on here in a long long time. nicely done!

...loved the part when he slapped the bills to the floor. Id rather he flushed them :)

This was bound to happen sooner or later. The way Yogscast have conducted themselves is pretty appalling. The supporters of these practices have to take some responsibility also. They should know things like this are not without risks. Backing something that doesn't exist yet or is in a broken form may mean you are not going to get what you paid for. This is why I will never back something like this. I don't even like buying early access games as they seem to never get finished.

I just don't understand paying for something i might never get, or paying for something that is broken. I might be weird though.

I love this show, Danny's a shining star among the rest of the primary GS staff.

Also shame on Yogscast, I really hope they don't get away with this.

This is why I will never fund anything on kickstarter. I have been tempter before, but I have this fear that they are just going to run away with the money. I rather just wait and buy the final product, if it's good. Currently playing Divinity Original Sin, so yeah, I'll support your product once it's out, not before.

It's very sad to see this - actually a total shame. People supported this Yogscast (and frankly I never heard of them before...maybe because I never played mindcraft) in faith of them producing a video game - third party or not, they promised a game.

I remember in one video what Brian Fargo states about Kickstarter - he stated that yeah there will be sour grapes around however it's still a great platform. Well I'm starting to beg the differ as I supported about 20 projects there and most I paid a lot of cash only to realise I'm getting ripped off. Ironically, the ones I'm on the fence are the ones that actually turned out well.

Now my biggest burn was Legend of Dawn - a proud backer of $174 dollars. Well this <a href="https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/522716131/legends-of-dawn/comments" target="_blank">forum</a> says it all.

Granted some actually delivered (Divinity: Original Sin) and Larian Studios LLC are known to deliver and their community support is brilliant.

Yet, and sadly now, Kickstarter burned me with shoddy players - yes there are shoddy players everywhere however I'll be staying away from that platform for quite some time.

Y'know, I was mad, but then I went back to the part where Danny was getting wands in his face and continued to laugh some more.

now I'm going to check some of that Harry Potter game videos

Btw this is business you don't bring personal life problems like marriage into something like this, that has nothing to do with the thousands of people doing business with you. Keep your screwed up life life choices to yourself.

never did like Kickstarter and these people are total scum. I never heard about them until now btw really not sure why they're so big but yeah now look at your false idols ... stop using KS.

While I would love to hold them accountable for putting their name to such a shoddy project and talking it up as much as they have, and as much as it goes against the attitude of the comments, I'm not sure that they should be responsible for it.

Now I don't know anything about law or Kickstarter's terms and conditions, but I was just thinking of if a similar situation happened. Say that the next Tiger Woods PGA game (don't even know if they still make them) took in a whole lot of pre-orders and then the company went bankrupt (I know it's EA but wishful thinking), would you be looking to Tiger Woods to refund everybody because he put his name to the product? (Or is FIFA responsible if one of the FIFA games does something similar?)

I think in both cases you would become mistrustful of both brands, but they shouldn't be responsible for the money.

It really just seems like this terribly organised company is to blame, but they're gone so Yogscast takes the wrath. Yes they used their name to help raise money for it but if say a celebrity publicly supported a presidential candidate and then the president made bad decisions, it's not really in the celebrity's control.

I saw in another article somewhere the developers said they had tried to get Yogscast to advertise for them to get people to buy pre-orders to further fund the game, but Yogscast had decided the product was too poor to support any further. I'm not defending Yogscast, and I wouldn't trust anything that they support in the future because they obviously don't have an eye for successful ventures, but I don't know if they should be getting all of the blame for this just because the project used their branding.