I love how everyone is loling at Fox. If Fox is the only moderate station and every other station is very left, of course Fox is going to be the standout one. Left would be the norm while moderate/right would be the most "biased" in the general view of thingsDivergeUnify

Fox is anything but moderate.

South Park has always been a mixed bag, but lately, it's getting more intelligent and more consistently funny.quiglythegreat

That's how I feel.

It seems every time something becomes popular it becomes 'cool' to hate it, unfortunately.

I thought Sega said no like a week ago?

Dude "osan0" made the claim that sony and MS dont make profit on their hardware.:|

The PS2 was made altogether by sony.The graphics chip in the PS3 is propably the only thing they dont make themselves.

$70 for an 8800GS is including the profit of an online retailer AND a manufacturer of nvidia cards like XFX or EVGA.Neither of these variables come in the case of console GPU's thus less cost.

PC hardware also has ALOT of R&D cost especially graphics cards and CPU's.:|

And did you just put mass production as a disadvantage for console costs?:?

I am sorry but you seem pretty wholly clueless about manufacturing and business.

Spybot_9

I know osan0 said that, and that's because it has been pretty common knowledge for a long time. There were discussions about it last generation and at the beginning of this generation (you know, the whole "the ps3 is worth $1000" talk from Sony execs). So where is your proof that this is BS?

Woops, I guess the fact that I wrote 'mass producing' negates the entire point about the costs of producing a console. :roll: Good use of that small slip-up to sidestep the entire argument though.

Of course PC hardware has a lot of R&D costs, that's why the 8800GS didn't cost $70 when it was released. It cost about as much as a console, if I recall, and it's only a graphics card.

I'll ignore the wholly clueless comment because I knew damn well you were a troll before I even entered the thread.

Proof that it's not BS please?

And dont give me some estimates by some analyst who knows nothing about how things go in the factory.Besides it's only logical.You can build a PC much more powerful than the 360 for the same price.Yes it doesnt have the labour cost of making a console in one piece but we are talking about individual components on which the company makes a substantial profit since they only make profit on hardware and they dont produce in as much bulk quantity as the consoles.And to top it off it is much more powerful than the console for the same price.

I mean if an 8800GS is selling for $70 meaning it is obviously much cheaper to manufacture then how much you think the 360 GPU costs to manufacture which is twice weakerand is produced more than any other PC GPU meaning more economies of scale?

Spybot_9

The beauty of it is I don't have to prove a negative. You made the statement, I asked for proof. It's been common knowledge for quite some time that (at first, until prices come down) consoles are sold at a loss. It didn't become common knowledge just because it was posted by some troll on an internet message board. If you want to prove your point, then post some damn proof.

And the thing is, all of the companies that make the individual parts of consoles (CPUs, graphics cards, etc) sell their parts for profit because they don't make the money back on software the way Sony/MS do.

So, let's say I make a console that has that $70 8800GS in it. To make profit, I'd have to add at least $71 to the price of the console. If you add up the cost of all the parts that go into a console, plus the cost of: R&D, mass production, advertising, etc. you'd have to sell one expensive console to break even. It makes much more sense to sell at a loss, get the install base, and make money back on software. That's why consoles are originally sold at a loss.

Of course, I'm not an expert, so I could be wrong. But you made the statement, so you have to prove it.

[QUOTE="Jaks_Secret"]

See, that's the entire problem; it's the War On Drugs. We automatically assume that cracking down on marujuana abusers is going to help stop addiction rates. If the government could legalize marijuana and found an AA-esque meeting and clinic for abusers, then we'd be making some progress.

GabuEx

I pretty much agree completely.

I'm actually reminded of a very interesting experiment I heard about that was called Rat Park. It wasn't a scientifically rigorous study, but I found it nonetheless interesting, and its results more or less jived with what my own thoughts on the matter were. Basically, scientists have done a number of studies where they gave rats the option to drink either water or water laced with morphine. The rats always went for the latter, leading scientists to believe that the only way to stop people from using drugs was to make there be no drugs to use.

But then along came another scientist who theorized that maybe it was that the rats' lives sucked that made them respond in that way. So he designed this huge enclosure that was intended to give the rats a very pleasant place to live in. He then did what other scientists had done, and found that the rats all chose the regular water. Even after making both things of water laced with morphine (thus addicting them to the substance), he found that the rats went back to the regular water when it was put back in place, despite the fact that they went through withdrawal to do so.

His basic conclusion from this is that doing drugs is a symptom, not a problem in itself, and it's a symptom of an unenjoyable life.

That's awesome. Did you hear about this, or is there some kind of link you could provide? If not, I'll try and find it when I go home.

[QUOTE="Vyse_The_Daring"][QUOTE="Spybot_9"]

[QUOTE="Vyse_The_Daring"]You lost me at "PS2 games never sell as much as the no. of systems sold". Do you really expect any game to sell 100+ million copies? :?Spybot_9

The fact that no game comes close to those figures is clear indication that the PS2 doesnt have anyway near as many users buying games as the ones playing games on it.

Or maybe it's a clear indication that people have different tastes?

Give us an example of a system that is difficult to pirate and has a game with sales nearly equal to the number of systems.

Halo 2 sold more than a third of what the xbox sold.SSBM also sold more than a quarter of gamecube sales.No PS2 game comes close to these figures.

And to the people saying that PS2 wasnt the easiet console to mod,it's not just about modding it yourself.There are many countries where you can buy modded consoles in open markets and it's all legal there.The dreamcast and original xbox never penetrated those markets very well.When the xbox was cracked,the PS2 already had far too much momentum and obviously if a pirate has a choice then he will buy the system with the better games in the case of the xbox and PS2.

Uh, the first comment I quoted from you said "PS2 games never sell as much as the no. of consoles sold," so you did say it.

The Xbox and GC also had much smaller and less diverse libraries, so when great games came out for them more people were inclined to buy them. The PS2's superior library is pretty much fact. More great games to choose from leads to less people forking out the $60 for the same game.

[QUOTE="osan0"]

i see a few flaws in ure argument TC.

MS and sony sell their hardware at a loss. if i buy a PS3 on pirate all my games and movies and so fourth then sony will incurr a loss. same with MS. sure it might make their sales numbers look nice on the hardware front but if ppl just buy the hardware and pirate everythign else then the balance sheets (which are far more important for a business) wont exactly be good looking. also if their games arent sellign then they wont make any more. ninty would turn a profit if they stopped making games and just made hardware...but not alot.

then theres 3rd parties. if everyone pirates those games also then 3rd parties get zip. no money, no incentive to make more games.

so really...piracy doesent help. not in the slightest.

i do agree with u about piracy being blown out of proportion (especially on PC). i was reading an article in total PC gaming UK (a mag) about how some of these companies get their figures and its borderline incompetent. every platform is also indeed hit by piracy. on a side note, that same article also proposed a way of using piracy to promote innovation and better games but the proposal is very flawed imho.

but anywho. piracy is bad, its unjustifiable, its theft. it most certainly does not help the industry grow.

Spybot_9

Proof that it's BS please.

Alan Wake is being developed by a very small dev team. I'm expecting the 360 version to be canned anyway, it's just too much for a console.

Ubi Montreal is probably the only Ubi division with any integrity, and when Convictions wasn't turning out well I think they decided to hit the drawing board again.

I thought Too Human was coming this holiday, but I dunno because I don't follow it much.

I have no idea about Cry On.