Deeb's GoWIII BoA PAIN+ run progress

And that's why I hate GoWIMustafaEl-Deeb

I remembered that I never said that I don't like itMustafaEl-Deeb

Alrighty.

Probably.

I tune in and out.

>probably

If you had read it, you wouldn't have posted your previous message.

Maybe you read but you didn't understand my meaning. I'll to remember what I said.

"I rememberED that I never said that I don't like GoW1 BEFORE I got to the Cliffs of Madness."

>except when you arrive at the Cliffs of Madness

Feels like we're getting warmer.  So then, that to say CoM and beyond bother you/aren't to your liking or that just that area specifically puts you off thusly?

>I should start

Very well.  We'll work light stuff first.

Collisions: GoW1 is well established with how it works by now, I trust.  How did GoWIII alter things?  On the good side, we had high potential with Battering Ram for multiple collisions.  Plenty of means to cause them too.  Rather than only having damage be on targets from agents, half collision cases allowed for target only and even 'both' taking the damage.  Promising.  Wall collisions and object collisions were added.  All very nice.

Where does it begin to go wrong with all this smooth sailing?  Static damage (not inverse of Armor %).  10/5/1 (full/half/wall-object).  Rather than balancing BR appropriately (and just that), they nerfed the entire system to Hell.  The damage offered by collisions hardly matters at all.  Utility is another story for another subject to be discussed.  Though it expands the system, it also shots itself in the foot (completely throwing what should have been an easy damn win). 

In GoW1, collisions are a big damn deal for higher setting play as compared to what we can dish out to enemies with our NUR options.  With GoWIII?  You might get some value out of the chip with loads of BR usage.  That's about the extent of it.

Petrification: In GoW1, the system is fairly well done (the numbers are not as pretty and well thought out as GoWII, but it's well balanced just the same).  Fodder/NPC have pretty much no resistance, no statue HP, slow break out, etc.  Pests only slightly increase that.  The flying cases (Harpies) suffer the extra disadvantage of just falling and shattering (for a good deal of EXP working outside the orb system *farming for VH*) most of the time *where as we have to work for it with other targets*.  Minor Grunts raise it a bit, Major Grunts take it further, Mini-bosses are highly resistant and bosses are immune (a reasonable approach).  In these groups, some resistances, break out times, etc. vary.  Desert Sirens break out fast (1 second), but have insane statue HP (10K) with low resistance.  The 3x petrification exploit still makes their death viable. *but perhaps needing an exploit to work things out is a negative*  Temple Sirens break out faster (0.5 seconds), but have even lower resistance and low statue HP (just one if I remember right).  So they freeze fast, but break out faster while being fragile.  A nice balance for an otherwise troublesome foe (likes to evade around).  Satyrs have higher resistance to the effect, but are still open to it (good investment, but higher cost).  Cyclops variants are where it gets expensive.  Gorgons are totally immune.  One could consider that a negative of the old system (rather than just being super resistant, they just don't petrify at all). 

What happened with GoWIII?  The system became a mess to read and understand (guide didn't help much at all).  But that's a fault with an external source, so we'll overlook that.  Obviously GoW1 had MG which was very efficient with stare, but flash (though viable, was more expensive) and rage (pretty cost ineffective) weren't all that.  Cute to use flash and stare at once, but there were no i-frames and moving while firing wasn't an option.  No air stare (but who wanted that?).  What does GoWIII have with regards to petrification magic?  Soul Summon.  Level 3+.  You need upgrades to even have the option.  That's not a positive.  This aside, how is it?  Too expensive for how weak it is.  It can only be fired as Flash.  Worse still, it is dependent on bad targeting with a cast delay.  The good news being that you can cast while moving in this case.  GoW1 holds the advantage here.

But GoWIII has something GoW1 lacked.  That being a tool of GoWII (the Fleece).  Won't help in PAIN+, but that's not our concern here.  One can 'return' even petrification (for a free rage with i-frames).  That's a big deal.  Also, Gorgon variants can be petrified, they're just highly resistant.  Another point in favor of GoWIII.

So what of the system itself?  The balancing of enemy resistance, breakout time, statue HP, rewards for shatters, etc.  With the return, you're going to petrify whatever you're dealing with.  Not so much with the spell option.  Friendly fire from Stare is pretty awful as it won't really petrify even Minor Grunts without full concentration for the full duration.  Flash is troublesome as we cannot false OS to provoke it, but it is otherwise just effective enough to be helpful.  GoW1 didn't necessarily have the false OS, so that's a neutral negative.  Magic Legionnaires cannot be petrified around their shield, but the Onyx users could (point in favor of GoWIII *too bad we can't really make great use of that*).  The system itself puts slightly nerfs effectiveness as a whole while we already lack a real spell option.  The relic is the primary plus as a carryover from GoWII.

Being able to use MG throughout the game would be enough to just give this to GoW1 despite the Fleece, but GoWIII has an exploit to consider.  Partial petrificaiton.  Something that is in the process of 'freezing' is subject to instant death 'on-landing'.  Doesn't need to be a statue.  The negative is that it can happen to us too (but gliding negates this just as when we are a full statue *exploit overruling a glitch here*).  The positive is that the nerf across the system (where many foes even even lower varieties have immunity periods, don't freeze at all or have some high stat against the mechanic) can mostly be negated.  Just get a foe in the air and let them take a few units of petrification on.  *clap*  And they're done.  Not a great orb return (highest in GoW1), but who cares among us?  Not me.

With many (not all) foes open to being put in the air (even an exploit to get some heavier types up there) among those that can be petrified at all, you can make smart use of friendly fire when Gorgons are around (even without the Fleece).  Trouble is, one should be considering the Fleece an option and Gorogns aren't really around all that often (more often the Gorgon Serpents we can't force to do what we want like with the girls of GoWII).  Without our own way to cause petrification, the exploit is mostly wasted.  A good spell would have done the trick to clinch victory over GoW1 in this regard despite the nerfs.  So, the relic and exploit help GoWIII's case, but having a solid system and a good spell gives GoW1 the edge for better implementation of the mechanic of going around Power % and even direct damage.

Ring-out: GoW1 allows more of it.  Artemis antics aside (allowing more still), we can even cast over mini-boss level foes.  GoWIII makes it troublesome to get one particular major grunt over.  We're too often denied.  GoW1 is just more open about this option to go around Power % for a quick kill.

Enviro: Environmental hazards, terrain advantages, objects, etc.  GoWIII had the object based collisions and wall collisions (along with wall splat stun state and wall splat BR instant kill *not worth as much as it was in GoW:A where that is owed to bad calls in other departments*).  Certainly nice additions.  Some varied places to fight too.  GoW1 was just more varied (ring-out aside).  Far more traps (crushers, rollers, conveyers, spikes, flame jets, etc.) to spice up fights for and against us (tactical considerations).  The oil pots and wall additions are certainly not to be discounted, but GoW1 was better with the environment itself.  The traps help to make up the difference for lacking what GoWIII introduced.  I'd consider it a fair enough trade-off to give a tie here (ring-outs as a seperate consideration favoring GoW1 though it belongs here to give GoW1 a slight edge).

Friendly Fire: GoW1 had foes able to 'strike' each other for stuns, but not really damage.  Gorgons petrifying others was cute, but not all that dependable (more workable with the exploit in GoWIII *far easier with the option of returns*).  Foes seem better able to shatter statues in GoW1.  The important consideration here is 'mounting'.  GoW1 didn't have this.  GoWIII's Cyclops was just an okay source of damage (i-frames mean a lot while also killing off the agent), but the Mongrel was insanity.  It had a few moments to shine, but could have been used better.  'Mounting' as 'friendly fire' might be stretch though.  What do you think?  If you would agree it counts as having foes hurt each other (even if we are controlling them directly), I'd be giving GoWIII the edge in this regard.  Otherwise, it's a tie.

---

We'll consider some more areas as we work down the Evaluation list.  For now, let's discuss these matters first. 

I can't compare between them because they're totally a different engine. Sometimes I think they're not the same game.

Does GoW:A has the same engine of GoWIII?

>different engine

We're not concerned with that.  Just the matter of how the quality of gameplay is affected.

>not the same game

That wouldn't help GoWIII's case with GoW1 being a winning formula spawning a series unless GoWIII just blows it away somehow (it doesn't).

>GoW:A with same engine

Highly bastardized, but yes.

I take it you won't be defending against what I've noted, weighing in nor looking for further discussion of mechanic comparisons for GoW1 vs GoWIII, then?  Shall we move on to GoW1 vs GoS?

>GoW1 vs GoS

Fine.

>shall you lead us this time

Nope.

>nope

Then leave it to daddy GMG.  I'll have to attend this after work.  More likely, tomorrow.  Perhaps before I get groceries.  It's high time I suit up for today's job though.

>leave it to daddy GMG

Just don't make it so complicated.

>so complicated

You were asking for it:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwdcDCeJjj0

This said, I make no promises.  We'll be going over the same matters as in the previous comparison.  Just with GoS in place of GoWIII.  When that has been discussed, we'll move on to other considerations (as was meant for GoWIII *and CoO*).

---

Collisions: As before, I don't need to explain how GoW1 works here as an introduction.  Instead, GoS.  What's there to it?  A collisions instance can only be 'full'.  There are less OS, OH and air OS means to get them.  Knockback cases (half) don't exist at all.  HR is the primary means to get them (toss, tackle, punches, etc.).  Each are 3 damage.  And that's it.  No changes with settings (static).  Back to target only (neutral between the two).  It's no contest.  GoW1 wins.

Petrification: As before, GoW1 had a pretty well balanced system with good rewards for the investment (though a bit harder to work than GoWII and with a bit ugly numbers to work with *over-inflated by a 'place' or two*).  Gorgons were immune (like bosses), but most other things were subject to it with reasonable variations on resistance, breakout, statue HP, etc.  I'd noted Desert Sirens as an oddity (glitch to overcome this design), but the Temple Sirens were a very good showing.  You can review previous discussion on this matter.  It's mostly about what 'class' of foe you are dealing with.

With GoS, 'classes' are a factor, but the balance is tilted too far in the favor of enemies while our direct tool to weaponize the mechanic is a joke (HoB).  It costs too much, is made worse by settings, needs MAX to feel worthy of MIN, can't be canceled right away (upon using the effect), etc.  Doing tiny damage to statue HP and i-frames aren't enough to justify this.  We lack a 'return' in either entry, so that's neutral ground.  GoW1 wasn't great for having Gorgons helping us out.  GoS was slightly better on that front, but what really mattered was the glitch for petrification based damage to statue HP.  That helped make up for the blunder with bad design like having the total HP of a foe surpassed by their statue form, loads of cases exceeded acceptable damage requirement to shatter, etc.

I've gone over this at length in previous evaluations and in a few threads railing the misuse of petrification beyond GoWII (the peak).  Despite the glitch tilting things in the favor of GoS, the main issue with the mechanic is that you need that glitch and another glitch (air shield charge with AoS *lvl3+*) to make it workable.  HoB needs loads of MP (extensions) and EXP (upgrades) coupled with the latter of the two exploits for it to shine in a very specific fight (eliminate two of the three Geryons to simplify their last encounter).

The balance of petrification as a system is just far better in GoW1 and it had MG (a far better way to make use of MP counting towards using this mechanic).  GoW1 just did a better job with this aspect.  GoS slipped up still more by failing to let some foes freeze/petrify one another (even offering immunity where not appropriate as with the Dredge).  Can't even fault GoW1 on Gorgons when GoS has more foes beyond bosses it won't work on (or work well against *with an already bad option to cause the status to build-up*).

Ring-out: GoS is extremely restrictive.  Almost no cases exist.  GoW1 wins by default as it would against CoO.

Enviro: "Environmental hazards, terrain advantages, objects, etc." GoS just offered far less of this.  Simple lock-ins, featureless arenas, etc.  Ways to play smart were extremely limited (as with ring-out).

Friendly Fire: As before, GoW1 didn't really have too much of this (GoW hasn't been big on letting foes kill each other).  Light stuns mostly.  Statue damgage, sure.  Petrification is the main exception.  GoS's glitch with petrification damage to statue HP and foes knocking each other around (even if not really dealing damage anymore) can count for something (though it strongly works against you with a Keres Wraith).  An extension of Gorgons, Harpy Queens and Boreas Spawn could freeze foes in interesting ways.  I'd give this category to GoS.

~This should be fairly short and sweet.  When we've covered these, we'll press on to other considerations. 

>petrification glitch

Speaking about that matter. When Gorgons appear I use them to petrify the other enemies. After they get petrifiied they get destroyed without making a hit on them, I don't know if they get destroyed due to rolling towards them or due to extra petrification. So what's the reason?

>should be fairly short and sweet

It is.

>when we covered these

Consider it already covered. I'm not good at covering all of these.

>petrificaton glitch

What you're asking about is what I refer to.  In GoS, petrification units applied towards the status count as direct damage (to statues).  It deals HP damage to them as such (and will shatter them).  It's the ideal way to make use of Gorgons whether you do the freezing or they do.  They're there because the petrification damage is stronger than our direct damage means outside high upgrades (or an instant shatter case).

>already covered

So you'll want to be pressing on with GoW1 vs GoS, yes?  Not changing over to the next comparison (which would be GoWII)?

NOTE: Being 'nice' about GoW:A was tough work:  http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/God-of-War-Ascension-General/Some-good-things-about-Ascension/m-p/41606967#U41606967

Didn't have the energy to get in-depth with 'enemies' nor all considerations (parry, rage, stun states, promptless QTE, etc.).  Trying to avoid going negative was hard (not always something I could do). 

>GoWI vs. GoWII

That's what I wanted.

>PSU link

How did you put that background in your trophy list?

>what I wanted

So you wanted to see GoW1 compared to its superior in terms of pros and cons?  Let me guess, I lead off?  I trust you'll weigh in more for this comparison.

>background for trophy list

Something the website it links to just does.  I'd have to update it to refresh myself on how it works (to tell you). 

>website link does

I have an account on the ps3trophies, do I have to create an account on the PSU or sign I sign in with the same user of my ps3trophies.

Deeb: >do I

I don't remember.  I'd have to update the sign as a refresher.

Wulf: >PSU

It's just the old name for the official boards (Playstation Underground). 

>PSU

Yes, and you log into it with your PSN account.  No?

> Get to GoW 1 vs GoW 2

You hardly participated in any of his other comparisons, and now you're impatient that he's not getting to the next one quick enough?  Love is a two way street, buddy.

>hardly participating

I wanna see the comparision.

>impatient

I'm just asking because couple days had passed and he didn't start it. Also I'm not participating because GMG doesn't say something from his mind, he's saying facts. So there's nothing to discuss unless I want to aski something as with GoS comparision.

>GoW1 was much better than you thought

True, but everyone has his style in playing (what suits him). Which means I still think GoS and GoWIII are better than GoW1.

>parts

What are you talking about?

Remember when you were all "I hate GoW1, it's stupid and nothing will ever change my mind" then GMG was all "Nuh-uh, you're stupid, and here's why", then you were all "When I said it was stupid I didn't mean it was stupid, I meant it was awesome and you're right but I just don't like things that are awesome and that's ok"?

GMG wasn't actually saying you were stupid, he was saying that you should justify your opinion in the hopes that it would launch into an actual discussion.  I don't want to speak for the guy, but I'll assume he doesn't type up pages of this stuff just because he likes the sound of his keyboard clicking.  Asking him to carry this discussion further and then providing zero input of your own is a huge waste of his time when I can only assume you're not even reading it.

>nothing will ever change my mind

I didn't  say that.

>I meant it was awesome but I don't like awesom things

I didn't say that either.

>you're stupid

Now what's that?

>I'll asume he.............. a huge waste of his time

I wasn't the one who brought the "GoW1 vs X" discussion, neither the one who brought the idea of beginning "GoW1 vs. GoWII" discussion. So if GMG thinks that I'm retarded and doesn't want to waste time with me, then you should ask him why did he start this discussion. You're talking as if I'm the one who wanted the discussion and asked him to do it.

Also when GMG mentioned everything about GoW1, I didn't change my mind, because as I said, all of these are facts and I already know them. Reading GMG's words didn't affect my opinion at all.

I tend to exaggerate for effect.  You'll get used to it.

>exaggerate for effect

You don't know how did this help me!

Deeb: >when

Soon.  I had company take up my day yesterday.  Operating at one hour of sleep was plenty for slapping him around in Tekken, but not enough for thinking properly as needed for this discussion.  Dicking around in other exchanges takes far less consideration.  I prefer to be clear headed and have enough time to not rush myself.  I'll likely aim to return to this topic after work.

>want to see

As do I.  From myself and others (alternative takes).

>not from mind

>just facts

A lot of facts, but some of these things are interpretations of the facts (also opinions on what those interpretations mean for the comparison).

>fancy over facts

Then it is as suggested to Wulf.  Still, I'm sure the two of us could stand to hear some of your own reasoning on the matters discussed in any of the given comparisons.  Yourself weighing in, that is.  Your interpretation of the facts as you understand them.  What favors which entry. That sort of thing.  At least noting reasoning beyond fancy/feelings for putting GoS or GoWIII above GoW1.  If not gameplay related (story, music, etc.), then what?  If gameplay, what aspects moved you so much that you would favor these titles over GoW1 in-spite of what I note (and would go on to do had I continued).  There are pros above any entry over another (even GoW:A vs GoWII).  What between GoW1 vs 'X other title' has your attention?  Is it GoZ?  AoS?  The sub-weapon of the given entries?  CoH, Cestus and NW?  It makes us wonder what could lead to this rather unusual opinion.  Thus our pressing for details from a fellow vet.  We're naturally curious, you see.

>didn't say the noted

As Wulf notes, he has a taste for the theatrical.  Exaggerations for dramatic effect and all that jazz.

>didn't affect opinion

That's the thing that has us most curious, you could say.  We wish to hear the reasoning supported in good detail.  Lay it out for us, won't you?  Help your fellow vets understand this rather rare divergence from the norm of accepted tier listing. 

Wulf: >log into it with PSN

When PSU was still around, I believe so.  Might have been added later.  I know the newer board uses that for sure.

>impatient

He's anxious for seeing more instances where GoW1 is on the losing side, I suppose.  GoWII is one to watch if that is the case.

>GoW1 better than thought

Or at least, more worthy of appreciation.  Fancy isn't necessarily bound by facts.

>write-up parts that are better with reasoning

That would be ideal.

>you're stupid

Some liberties taken, but I get what you're going for.

>wasn't actually

I'm sure that much is clear.

>not for the sound of clicking and clacking

I like it, but I'm more fond of re-reading my own glorious typing.  Jests aside, I do enjoy discussions though.

>waste of time

Helps refamiliarize me with these things for future discussions of this nature (not my first time doing this).  Gets me set for when I eventually have to do it with GoW:A too (to a small extent).  Before that, I will have to get back to run work and testing on that entry though.  Buuurrrr.

EDIT

Same topics as usual for the start. 

NOTE: If this were a matter of preference, only that would be in question.  When noted as GoW1 being inferior to GoS, CoO and GoWIII in gameplay (as fact), this is where the discussion comes up.  To see how that conclusion could be reached (versus some feeling due to fancy as with an opinion that doesn't postulate GoW1 to be of a lower quality than entries it is considered better than in this most paramount of important consideratinos).

Collisions: I've noted GoW1.  GoWII uses the same system.  Does it expand the system?  Not really, but it adds alt.OH (grab consideration) which is pretty good for causing them.  SoD and BoO both have heavy specials that are lovely for knockback based collisions too.  This along with a VH allowing other costumes (with terrible Armor stats) with potential for amazing collisions that Wulf would otherwise have to set-up for us.  In a sense, GoWII has the advantage (if only a small one).

Petrification: The system works as well or better in GoWII while being better organized.  EH is better than MG for allowing movement, more i-frames and a superior 'rage' (though blast is crap and firing from the air with 'stare' means nothing).  Not being able to 'stare' and 'flash' (or blast) at the same time is a pity (advantage to MG), but whatever.  Fleece allows returns and Gorgons can now petrify (though the likes of TM are introduced as mini-bosses we cannot petrify aside from sub-bosses and bosses).  Friendly Fire using Gorgons is better than ever with false OS (and returns). Advantage to GoWII.

Ring-out: Basically the same here with regards to options for ring-out.  Tie.

Enviro: About the same, but GoW1 has more traps versus rooms without them to take advantage of.  Small edge to GoW1.  If there were more statues for AotF, RotT doors to slap here and there (or more 'rage' chests), we got HP/MP chests when at full extensions (rather than EXP), etc., GoWII would tie up (and maybe win out).

Friendly Fire: Hades Nymph tosses, Petrification as a system (working better than ever), collisions as good as before, etc.  It's about the same other than Tyrants being able to kill Wild Boars and toss them at us.  Small edge to GoWII.

~This should get us started. 

>inferior to strory, music

GoW1 is better than GoWIII regarding the story, but GoS is better than GoW1 (of course the origins series have a better story). Music: At GoW1, I only love the music played at Athen's Square Town and the one played after the Cerberus battle (Desert Kings). GoWIII and GoS have similar OSTs, I like the one played at the second fight of the Leviathan and the one played at Poseidon, also the one played at the 2 HCs and The Trials of Erebus. All of these are also played in GoS, but GoS has a soundtrack which was never played at any of the GoW series, the one at the Entrance of the Temple of Thanatos.

>reason supported in good details

..... I just don't really like it. Believe me, it's been weeks and I couldn't determine why I like GoS and GoWIII more than GoW1.

>GoW1 being inferior to CoO

I don't remember that I said that. GoW1 is better than CoO.

>Ring out

>tie

GoW1 wins.

>this should get us started

Is there any PoC?

> he's not good at it

Now you're just talking crazy talk.  I'll excuse you though because you're a furry NUR and probably don't grasp the complex interweavings of my lyrical wit.

>>he's not good at it

Who said that?

>crazy talk

I don't think you're talking to GMG.

>furry NUR

What's that Wulf? Why all of these? I didn't say that.

>probably don't grasp the complex interweavings of my lyrical wit

Did I make fun a poem you wrote? I just hope that it has nothing to do with the GoW1 PAIN discussion. No hard feelings, right?

Deeb: >regarding 'non-gameplay'

I'll mostly overlook these matters.  Broadening the scope of comparison isn't my current interest.  Or are these major consideration from your perspective (counting towards an overall favorite between the two)?

>don't really like it

That's not 'good detail'.

>can't determine why

Something to introspect on.  Even still, a 'feeling' isn't as important as an 'opinion' here.  One can favor any entry over another, but still know which is the superior (in various regards *such as gameplay*).  To contend GoW1 is beneath GoS, CoO or GoWIII is what was originally in question.  This is what is being argued against by myself.  Not so much your particular tastes (though that is where I'd wanted to hear details so as to better understand the sentiment for divering from the norm with vets).

>don't remember

Good enough for me.  Saves me time.  With CoO put beneath GoW1, that leaves GoS and GoWIII still.

>GoW1 wins

Maybe.  GoWII was pretty good about allowing that option too.  Hard to say which is better without really comparing the total number of battles, how many had ring-outs, how well the ring-outs worked (what type of foes it worked on as well), etc.  That would be harder than just chalking it up to a tie.

>any PoC

Any what now? 

NOTE: Is the GoW1 vs GoWII discussion on pause for a brief backtrack to GoS and GoWIII? 

Wulf: >a furry

A strong charge.  Been awhile since I'd seen this in use.

>feeliing isn't as good as an opinion here

I didn't say I feel that GoS and GoWIII are better than GoW1. I just can't express my opinion.

>any what now?

Points of comparison. The abbreviation is pretty well known.

>didn't say you feel

You note it as a matter of fancy rather than a statement of fact, yes?

>pretty well known

Not in my circles. 

>rather than a matter of fact

Yes, but it's not just a feeling.

>dying unhappy

Till May, 23 2013, I was sure that I'll die happy. After that day I became sure that I'll never have a happy ending. When it comes to 'happy' and 'ending' then it's your job Mr. 'drama'. No one will die happy as long as he knows you.

Envy will do that to a fellow, I suppose.

At last I got a happy ending out of the deal.

Deeb: >not just a feeling

Thus the dialogue held.  It is desired that you explain your sentiment.  More so when it at all implies a superior entry is beneath an inferior entry in regards to gameplay.

>happy ending

It's how things end that tends to matter most. 

>GoW1 vs GoWI

Versus itself or GoWII?

>still going

Is it?  I left off with a few noted mechanics being compared.  Were you finished weighing in on them?