Should Microsoft start off gen 9 earlier than expected?

@StrongBlackVine said:

@emgesp said:

@skelly34 said:

@nyadc said:

They should just release in 2018 or 2019 like most expect and create a powerhouse console, something unbelievable that they will absolutely lose money on but make it reasonable to the consumer. They will make money back in the long run with games, sales and the eventual reduction in hardware costs, but they need to do something they know Sony cannot, and that is initially lose a metric **** ton of money.

We can all dream.

Microsoft could afford a $100 loss on each console sold, Sony probably would avoid even a $50 loss if possible. So, yeah I think its very possible that the next Xbox will be more powerful than the next Playstation. Phil Spencer will want to avoid more articles talking about resolutions being lower on their box.

What you loonies fail to realize that Xbox does not have access to all of Microsoft's money. They have a budget and doesn't seem to a bigger budget than PlayStation has right now. Spencer is nothing but an employee and I would love hear his pitch to the real management about how Microsoft will lose a few hundred million on new console launch just for the "possibility" that it might beat PS in the US. Worldwide it doesn't matter what Microsoft does. Notice you said Sony would avoid the loss if possible, they showed this holiday they were prepared to match Xbox price.

Just face it Xbox is the inferior brand and that won't be changing.

Their budget could eclipse Sony's ten fold, fact is you don't know, but the other fact is one has an ungodly rich parent company that COULD supply them funds and the other does not. One company is capable of indefinitely taking losses to generate a profit whereas the other financially could not hold out to do so, that is what you're failing to understand here. They could create a more substantial hardware package at a slight loss and they will sell more consoles, they will sell more games, they will sell more everything. The notoriety of the brand will be greatly strengthened and in a few years time they could redesign the hardware package to generate a profit from the hardware itself instead of from related items.

Also, I'm genuinely curious here, why is Xbox an inferior brand? What fundamental basis do you hold where you can make an ignorant blanket statement as if it's some sort of fact and people cannot hold differing opinions?

The Xbox 360 and PS3 both finished with around 80M, when everyone stopped caring and focused on the new gen. The difference was marginal. Anything your counting now is just desperate.

You need to take your fanboy glasses away and stop trying to make out it was a big deal. I doubt Sony wants to even remember last gen. The victory for them was more like survival. As a company they got their in the end bloodied crawling on the floor, it just cost them so much, the hardware was so complicated and it took them years to catch up their online services.

And neither of them particularly made money. But MS had the much easier gen apart from RRoD.

Realistically, MS isn't going to dump the Xbox One, because like the Wii U, there's nothing wrong with the hardware. The problem is everything else. And MS would benefit from taking the time to make it right and developing their future console properly. They don't need to rush it to market, unlike the Xbox 360, they aren't fighting for developer support as much. The Xbox One still has healthy enough sales to hold on to what they have in terms of support.

MS are right to continue working on the Xbox One and just 180 on bad decisions. Nintendo are stupid to blame the Wii U hardware when the problem is clearly them, but they have too much pride to see it.

The original Xbox wasn't selling, it was costing MS on every unit and Nvidia was screwing them.

Even then, the numbers previous to the release of new consoles in 2013 had the difference as negligible (within 5M) last I heard.

If this guy helps build the next Xbox then we are gonna see something truly special.

I would be all for a new MS system in 2017 or 18 if everything was BC from the Xbox one to it. I'm taking games accessories, my Kinect, everything basically just release a new box that has some insane power in it and let me use all my Xbox one stuff on it, especially my elite controller.

I think they should just give up the console and stick with PC. NX and PS5 is gonna kick their asses again anyways

Microsoft just released a 500 dollar underpowered piece of junk with the Xbox One.

How can one be so completely deluded to think somehow Microsoft will magically be more anymore capable of putting out cost effective console hardware that is 'insanely powerful' in just two more years.

@emgesp: they won't make another console. They've had three chances and never won a generation. Their CEO is focused on their software and trimming fat; fat being their mobile division and soon, XBOX.

Microsoft didn't "just release" anything. The Xbox One is over 2 years old now. It also hasn't been $500 for quite some time. I'm not quite sure what you were getting at there. And why doesn't AMD get any blame for either of these consoles being under powered? It's their chips inside these consoles. Sony and Microsoft just bought AMD parts and put their logos on the boxes.

Nobody said that the next Xbox was going to be insanely powerful. The XB1 cost $500 at launch because it was bundled with a $100+ accessory.

Everyone should also know that MS is gonna wait and see what Nintendo is gonna drop and when it's dropping the NX. MS isn't gonna want to be the weakest console on the market. If NX drops in 2016-17 look for MS in 2018.

Nintendo is gonna really screw up the release of consoles cause it will force MS to release something earlier, Sony will ride the PS4 money train till at least 2020 especially with the VR external processor crap dropping. IMO shits gonna get weird and fractured.

no

Not really AMD's fault. Sony had a TDP budget and AMD gave them the best they could offer at that TDP and architecture.

Unless the NX is a powerhouse Microsoft has nothing to worry about.

@nyadc said:

@StrongBlackVine said:

@emgesp said:

@skelly34 said:

We can all dream.

Microsoft could afford a $100 loss on each console sold, Sony probably would avoid even a $50 loss if possible. So, yeah I think its very possible that the next Xbox will be more powerful than the next Playstation. Phil Spencer will want to avoid more articles talking about resolutions being lower on their box.

What you loonies fail to realize that Xbox does not have access to all of Microsoft's money. They have a budget and doesn't seem to a bigger budget than PlayStation has right now. Spencer is nothing but an employee and I would love hear his pitch to the real management about how Microsoft will lose a few hundred million on new console launch just for the "possibility" that it might beat PS in the US. Worldwide it doesn't matter what Microsoft does. Notice you said Sony would avoid the loss if possible, they showed this holiday they were prepared to match Xbox price.

Just face it Xbox is the inferior brand and that won't be changing.

Their budget could eclipse Sony's ten fold, fact is you don't know, but the other fact is one has an ungodly rich parent company that COULD supply them funds and the other does not. One company is capable of indefinitely taking losses to generate a profit whereas the other financially could not hold out to do so, that is what you're failing to understand here. They could create a more substantial hardware package at a slight loss and they will sell more consoles, they will sell more games, they will sell more everything. The notoriety of the brand will be greatly strengthened and in a few years time they could redesign the hardware package to generate a profit from the hardware itself instead of from related items.

Also, I'm genuinely curious here, why is Xbox an inferior brand? What fundamental basis do you hold where you can make an ignorant blanket statement as if it's some sort of fact and people cannot hold differing opinions?

As much of a win-win situation as that would be for both the consumer and Microsoft, and how much SENSE such an investment would make. Such a thing will not occur in the modern world. The video game/console industry simply does not take risks and will no longer make investments such as that, as they only invest in things that yield near instant gratifications. Neither Sony nor Microsoft will ever do something like that ever again.

We could argue all day what Microsoft COULD do, but the fact is that these things will never happen. It's not even worth talking about it.

Looked around a bit, I did find a few sources that said the 360 initially cost $500+ to make, but I remember some articles with the $700 figure.

The dreamcast was groundbreaking because it creamed PC tech when it launched, and at least a year after. The gamecube gpu (its cpu as well, had modifications not on PC that made it better than PC cpu's for gaming) had features that PC gpu's didn't and that goes for Xbox as well. 360 even, had unified shaders before PC. Consoles used to have the latest tech before PC, now they're using old PC tech.

Technically it's true PS4 and Xbone used the latest stuff from AMD, they just hadn't released new cards in 2013 but still they used year old tech. They should've worked to make something with at least some new features.

financially speaking, why would they? if they are outselling the 360 and stand to sell 80 million plus..why would they?

Rushing the 360 out the door a year early didn't help the 360.

Release time, relative to the competition, matters little.

This topic is entirely speculation, in fact most of System Wars is speculation. Why begrudge him the same freedom?

At some point MS shareholders and executives alike are going to stop throwing money down the Xbox hole.

What do broken games and more creativity have to do with the actual hardware ? those depend on the developer/publisher and it´s their fault, not the system´s fault. It´s like blaming your PC for a shit game like Big Rigs.

@skelly34: Agreed 100 percent. I think the days of loss leaders in gaming are over. These companies want to make money and not years after launching a product. And the success of the PS4 and Xbox One (to a much lesser extent) has shown you don't need to lose a shit ton of money up front to sell consoles.

I think Xbox wants to use the cloud more in the next console and will be always online. Microsoft is waiting on the tech and internet resources to be ready for mass market availability.

Just a theory.

I do have a question, is Microsoft taking a loss on the Xbox One hardware like they did the original Xbox and the 360?

Because as long as the Xbox makes money, Microsoft will keep supporting it. I highly doubt Microsoft cares about overall sales numbers as much as some fanboys do.

Sales numbers look good on paper and when it comes to putting out press releases, but the PS3 sold over 80 million units last gen, but its doubtful Sony ever made a real profit on the system and they managed to blow away the profits of the PS1 and PS2 in the early years when the PS3 struggled.

That's why the PS4 was so important for Sony. They could not afford to take any hits with costly hardware. That's why Nintendo has such a large reserve of money. The Gamecube, DS, Wii, and 3DS were all sold with the idea of making money back on the hardware. That's why the Wii U has been such a drag on Nintendo this gen. They sold it as a loss leader and they paid the price when the gamble backfired.

But to compare, the Gamecube made money for Nintendo despite only selling around 20 million units that generation. Compare that to the Xbox with was a massive money sink for Microsoft or the PS3 with was also a massive money sink for Sony.

So sales numbers mean little if the hardware is so expensive, a company stand to lose money on it even if it does sell.

Everyone who claims the Xbox brand will die, I doubt it. Even if the Xbox One is behind the PS4 this entire generation, as long as it makes money for Microsoft they will support it.

We actually don't know how much the xbox one has sold at this point. It is mostly likely near 17 million at this point and probably will reach between 18million and 18.5 million by the end of this year. The xbox one will most likely sell between 4 and 5.5 million this year in just the US and maybe even higher than that depending on where it ended up last year in terms ltd in the US based off of NPD data.

If devs aren't ready to make the jump from third parties that would be pretty pointless.......

You want to spend 6 years with your bone and its potato gpu/ddr3/cellphone cpu? On thread, they should. They will never catch PS4 even if their XBL goes for free. Nothing to lose for going first especially if they're investing in the most powerful 9th gen system.

No, the Xbox One is not near 17 million.

The Xbox One was in the 12-13 range in the months leading up to Thanksgiving. Around 14 million after including November.

Microsoft is not going to sell 3-4 million Xbox Ones worldwide in December.

That definitely won't happen, but I can easily see the console selling 3 million in both November and December combined.

Why are you making fun of the Xbox One when it's nearly the same console internally as the PlayStation 4? They're both potatoes and both are going to suffer over the course of 6 years.

Different but theoretically as capable RAM structure? Check

The same CPU parsed and clocked differently? Check

The same GPU architecture albeit scaled back? Check

You're trying to make apples and oranges with what in the PC world would be the difference between an HD 6870 vs an HD 6850, it's straight up retarded, the RAM structure and CPU shit doesn't even matter it's so inconsequentially different.... If the Xbox One suffers from something the PlayStation 4 is going to suffer from it all the same if properly developed and optimized on both platforms, especially as time goes on and the resolution disparity is more established. At 900p and 1080p they operate about the same, that's what it is, this time next year 4K will basically be the standard, 1080p TV's are already on fire sales selling for half of what they were 6 months ago, they're trying to get rid of them.

The PlayStation 4 and Xbox One are both outdated junk.

What you're trying to peddle here is basically like two 5th generation Honda Prelude's pitted against each other in a 1/4 mile race, one with an H22A and the other with an H22A4. The H22A is going to get to the line first with about a 15.17, it's got a more powerful engine, and the H22A4 will ring in at about a 15.79, it's a win but it's nothing substantial, it's nothing to freak out about, they're both slow regardless of one having 20 more horsepower. What you're trying to throw out there is that the PlayStation 4 is an R34 Nissan Skyline GTR running a 10.74 1/4 mile vs. the Xbox One being this Prelude with a 15.79, and you look like an idiot as a result.

Man you're on some serious drugs, at this point they should be bordering or eclipsing 20 million consoles sold...

This guy talking about it not being near 17 million, laughing my ass off over here, you cows low ball so much.

Yeah and guess wut? I don't want the PS4 to last 6 years... Not only that but its also noticeably more powerful.

No. They have a competent machine, and it's still selling (though not to PS4 levels). If anything, I expect PS5/Xbox whatever to launch around the 2018/2019 mark, both in a relatively close window.

@nyadc: Sure the Ps4 isn't great either hardware wise, but at least it hits 1080p 99% of the time. 900p isn't a massive deal, but it's noticeable and after the last consoles were out for 7 and 8 years 1080p should be the minimum, so it sucks that the Xbox can't do it that much. But it's worse when a Ps4 game is 900p, then it's 720p on xbox one and that's just too blurry for the amount of details these new consoles can pump out.

FF15 is going to be 720p on the Xbox one, a game that is a step up over what's been out for both consoles in detail, and so much of that is going to be blurred over. It's not going to be crisp on Ps4 either, but not nearly as bad as the Xbone will have it. That kind of difference is pretty substantial.

So Ps4 isn't great, it just barely reaches the minimum standards but the Xbox one isn't even at what the minimum should have been for this generation. The xbox can still produce great looking games, it just suffers a lot on the multiplat front. Exclusives are where it can shine.

While there's definitely a chance Microsoft could launch its next-gen in late 2018, I think the most likely outcome is 2019.

Also, as many others here have been saying, which is also widely accepted, neither Microsoft nor Sony will risk launching bleeding edge hardware again like the Xbox 360 in 2005 and PS3 in 2006. We all know that for 2013, the PS4 and Xbox One were both very conservative pieces of hardware. They both had weak CPUs and midrange GPUs. They both had plenty of RAM given the predictions in the few years leading upto their announcement, where most thought new consoles would each get 2 to 4 GB RAM, not the 8GB they got.

Going forward, I don't expect next generation consoles to get another 16x increase in RAM (512 MB last gen to 8 GB this gen is 16x). I think next gen will probably get a 4x increase in RAM, much better CPU (some flavor of AMD Zen) and powerful but not bleeding edge GPUs with high bandwidth memory.

I think it's possible next gen consoles, if they launch in 2019, but no later than fall 2020, might be slightly less conservative compared to PS4/Xbox One in 2013, but nothing like what Xbox 360/PS3 were in 2005/2006.

Next Xbox and PS5, the best hardware that can be done at $400 using ~180 watts and no more than a $50 loss on each console sold. Xbox 360 and PS3 were both well over 200 watts, and sold at a $100+ / $200+ loss.

I think Microsoft's next Xbox will have full support for Oculus Rift CV1 and CV2 (which will be out by then, and PS5 will support second gen PSVR. These will be totally optional and will not replace normal gaming on an HD or UHD 4K TV with normal controllers. Yes they'll both use optical media, because game streaming over the internet / cloud gaming as the *only* way to play will not happen in 4-5 years because internet speeds and infrastructure will not be there in the U.S/ / NA and probably not Europe either. We won't see the kind of changes required to support digital-only / streaming / cloud based consoles for at least 10 to 15 years. Especially when large segments of the NA population does not have access to ultra high bandwidth connections. Microsoft and Sony would not limit themselves to a small percentage of the population that might have the bandwidth to do digital only. Besides, game streaming has a long way to go before its good enough. PSNow is barely passable and Nvidia's GRID is only somewhat better.

So, conventional game consoles that have local processing done in the box at home, along with optical media, are not going to disappear next gen.

What does need to disappear are horribly broken, incomplete games, season passes, excessive micro transactions. among other things that have plagued this gen from the start.

Lems are stupid if they think the heads at MS would commission a console the loses money while MS is in transition. MS has spend billions over the last few years and are looking to expand more into the mobile and tablet markets, while many top share holders want to rein in all the hardware business and focus mainly on OS, cloud, and services.

The Xbox One worldwide sales are already known to within a few hundred thousand units up to and including November. And the number are in the 14 million range going into December.

There is no 'should be'. Or 'has to be'.

Take the lifetime sales of the Xbox One in the US and you are already at 80 percent of the console's current installed base. The Xbox One is selling so low in Japan and mainland Europe(everywhere but the UK) that the sales from those regions are close to irrelevant to the console's installed base numbers. Beyond that you are off in vgchartz made up sales number fantasyland of 'massive Xbox sales in unnamed markets outside Japan, the US, and Europe.'

Installed base numbers have to come from somewhere.

There is no rubberband AI for console installed base numbers to keep the race interesting.

The Xbox One's worldwide installed base numbers are what they are. The sum of it life to date sales in each region. Feel free to break down where these 17 million Xbox Ones are supposed to have been sold:

* The US

* Japan

* Europe

Quoting the pathetic made up numbers from the twenty something year old hardcore Xbox fan who runs vgchartz from his mom's house is not an answer.

The Xbox One is low end, so yes.

2018 Q4 sounds like a good year.

This is not only dumb, it's low balled beyond belief and pulled directly from your ass.

Cite your sources or do not speak.

Yep. No surprise.

Xbox One installed base numbers straight from vgchartz.

"I believe them because I want them to be true!"

And absolutely no clue what the real lifetime sales of the Xbox One in Japan, the US, and Europe are.

These numbers are known...

It is hilarious to see the fanboy 'thought process'

* The Xbox One is bombing so badly in sales that Microsoft refuses to not only not admit to the console's actual worldwide sales numbers, they won't even play their old game of reporting their shipment to retailer numbers

* Spout numbers from some kid who makes them up from his mom's house

* Demand 'proof' they are wrong

LOL

There is an obvious reluctance to break down the Xbox One's region by region installed base numbers. It makes the laughably absurd vgchartz made up numbers manifestly fake.

Sony has really made the kid at vgchartz life difficult with their regular installed base updates with the PS4. The vgchartz kid is left with the only option of massively inflating his made up Xbox One sales numbers.

With only 14 million heading into Christmas the Xbox One is tracking almost identical to the first Xbox marketplace failure:

Xbox: 24.5 million over 3.5 years

Xbox One: 14 million over 2 years

It is obvious why there is not going be another Xbox. After some fifteen years and billions of dollars wasted on the console market Microsoft is right where they started: a console that is only selling in the US and UK(and being easily beat by Sony), completely dead in mainland Europe and Japan, and developers abandoning support.

So you have no sources? We all knew this, thanks for all the drivel you made up.

ITT: Say some Gpu terms hope they make sense together.

It is no coincidence that the guy the new CEO of Microsoft brought in to head the Xbox's parent division specializes in breaking up and selling off the pieces of the companies was in charge of in the past.

With the Xbox One bombing as badly as the first Xbox in worldwide sales Xbox fans have to be absolutely delusional to think anyone in Microsoft's top management is in the mood to waste billions on yet another failed console.

Yeah I'm sure Microsoft investors will be very happy about the lemmings proposal to make an unbelievably powerful console and sell it at a huge loss..

The xbox isn't bombing, it just not selling as well as the incredible PS4. If the xbox sells 60 to 70 million that will probably put it on par with the 360, because of all the repurchases of the 360 over the RROD.

Only time will tell, but MS it's going to be okay with the lose of hardware business model. Lems like @nyadc need to stop that nonsense. Not going to happen.

Solution to games drought: Release new hardware for devs to learn all over again.

You dumb fuckers lol.

Yes, then they will complain the entire time about starting over again especially if the favorite isn't winning.

@gfxpipeline: The same CEO that says he is committed to Xbox? Otherwise I think you have Nedella confused with someone else.

The Xbox One hitting 60 to 70 million isn't just unlikely, it isn't even possible.

Poor nyadc really isn't taking this generation very well, is he? Here's another thread where he just can't wait for the pain to stop.

No pity for self inflicted pain.

Xbox, and to a lesser extent Windows gamer, fans clung to the delusion that the tens of millions of duplicate Xbox 360s sold was actual installed base.

The inane claims about the relative graphical power of the PS4 vs the Xbox One are nothing more than something to laugh at. Secret Xbox One graphics hardware lying in wait to be revealed to devastate Sony. 'the Cloud!!!', magic SDK updates. Most Xbox fans have switched to the 'we never cared about shallow things like graphics' damage control rationalization.

vgchartz's made up additional three to four million sales for the Xbox One are too small to keep the delusion that the PS4 and Xbox One are fighting it out in worldwide sales.

Developers and publishers are increasingly not bothering wasting time on the Xbox One.

The Shiny Green Power Ranger did nothing to help Xbox One sales.

After the absurdly inflated Xbox 360 installed base numbers from the RRoD fiasco the Xbox One is right back to where Microsoft was fifteen years ago when they entered the console market. A console that is dead everywhere but the US and UK and looking at 25 million worldwide installed base.

But he's right. The PS4 and X1 were outdated right out of the box. X1 being weaker but still doesn't negate the fact that the PS4 is weak.