Andrew House: Even if a majority of Ps4 Pro games are upscaled it's not misleading to say the games run at 4K

I've been playing upscaled 4k games on consoles for 2+ years with my OG xb1 and PS4, Unless it gets really close to 4k and makes a big difference, I don't see the point. from sony's conference it looks more like it'll be the 1080i vs 1080p version of 4k. Like killzone did in it's MP mode.

Native 4k means every pixel is created, not that 1 out of 4 are created and the rest are borrowed. quantum break already used checkerboard rendering which is the same technique sony plans to use to create a 4k image

Wow................i dont even...................wow

It "is" enough to warrant a class action lawsuit if they go through with it. A costly one.

KZSF's is more or less 1080i i.e. line based interpolation with temporal. The problem with line based interpolation is the side pixels with the missing pixel is also missing i.e. no native pixels. With checkerboard renderer, the missing pixel has native pixels from top and bottom direction, hence better pixel interpolation data.

The rendered pixels are in native position in their target frame buffer.

Quantum Break doesn't use checkerboard renderer i.e. it doesn't have odd or even rendered pixels in their native frame buffer position.

“Quantum Break’s 1080p output is a temporal reconstruction from four previous 720p 4xMSAA frames,”

Guys let's not pretend MS didn't pull exactly the same stunt with the Xbox One S twice claiming it would run games in 4K. The fact Phil Spencer had no idea whatsoever what he was talking about doesn't alter the fact he claimed the X1 S played games in 4K. The fucking thing would literally explode if it tried to run even some crap indie game in 4K.

ALL PR people are wankers, not just Sony's.

Do with this what you will: we didn't REALLY have 720p machines in the 360 era (ok, yeah, SOME games, but many many were crazy crap like 540p, 600p, etc), we BARELY have a 1080p machine in the PS4 (most games native, yes, but often at the cost of struggling frames). To be blunt - with what we know about the Scorpio (which is very little except extrapolation based on a few numbers and speculated architectures), it will either be nut-tacularly expensive or will be the 4K equivalent of the 1080p PS4 - a machine that can kinda-sorta do native 4K if you're ok with Medium settings and some rocky framerates. The Pro is just another thread in the tapestry of marketing systems as more powerful than the are, and that practice will not end at Scorpio, believe me.

You are correct, it did use temporal reconstruction not checkerboard rendering. All in all though the techniques used by quantum break, killzone, and the potential pro 4k games are all different techniques to display 4k content without actually rendering native 4k

With AMD's semi-custom IP blocks, console's performance can be estimated with high degree of reliability.

Scorpio's 320 GB/s memory bandwidth with Polaris's memory compression and memory controller efficiency slightly exceeds R9-390X's 311 GB/s effective memory bandwidth. Without the memory compression, R9-290X/R9-390X's memory controller efficiency is around 81 percent.

We know Scorpio's memory bus is based from 12 GDDR5 chips and 320 GB/s memory bandwidth which yields 384 bit bus being the closest configuration.

Math

(320 GB/s x Polaris 75.78 percent memory controller efficiency) x Polaris memory compression factor 1.36X = 329 GB/s estimate effective memory bandwidth.

6 TFLOPS GPU is slightly above R9-390X's 5.9 TFLOPS. Scorpio's GPU design is newer than R9-390X with at least Polaris level improvements.

To be blunt, Scorpio's GPU solution is superior to RX-480. MS doesn't want AMD's year 2016 road map half gen jump IP blocks and waited for until year 2017 IP blocks.

Nothing about my post said the Scorpio was equal or inferior to the RX-480. Everything you just posted is compatible with what I said - you'll want much better than an RX-480 to do more than moderate level 4K gaming beyond 2017

Anyone seen SolidTy? i mean he claims to be a manticore and loves to rip Microsoft's PR people a new one everytime something like this happens. Let's see if he rips Sony's PR people a new one for this.

Nice to know that my Sega Genesis runs games at 4k.

Think that's kind of the point though. Sony paraded native 1080p around for near 3 years this gen, but now upscaling is cool?

hey, i have a 2012's $20 tablet, if i plug it on a 4k tv the games on this tablet are displayed in 4k on tv, its a $20 2012's 4k tablet

Andrew House: "Ahh that crap is close enough, call it 4K".

Sony just hasn't been the same since Jack left. That dude was awesome. Does anyone actually like House or Layden? I feel like had either of them delivered the same drop the mic speech Tretton did at E3 2013 that it wouldn't have had half the impact. They are stiffs.

Microsoft has stated "more than 320 GB/s memory bandwidth" for Scorpio i.e. 320 GB/s is the threshold target goal.

384 bit GDDR5-6700 = 321 GB/s. With Polaris's memory controller handling and compression = 331 GB/s

384 bit GDDR5-7000 = 336 GB/s. With Polaris's memory controller handling and compression = 346 GB/s

RX-480's effective memory bandwidth is about 263 GB/s which is similar to R9-290X's effective memory bandwidth 268 GB/s hence similar results with memory bandwidth bound benchmarks.

For game console hardware, performance and price has to balanced.

@ronvalencia: I have no idea what your statements have to do with my point. I'm not trying to be rude, it just feels like you're talking past me.

My point was for "To be blunt - with what we know about the Scorpio (which is very little except extrapolation based on a few numbers and speculated architectures),"

My counter point: "With AMD's semi-custom IP blocks, console's performance can be estimated with high degree of reliability".

The rest of my post is to show high degree of reliability estimation based from AMD's current IP blocks. I haven't even used Vega's 4X perf/watt claim.

@ronvalencia: I see. I thought you were being very obtuse about the main point of my statement, which was the Scorpio is either going to be very pricey or not as mindblowing as some seem to assume

I agree.........

So it's not misleading to say all XB1 games run in 4K now that that the XB1S upscales too?

Cows are desperate, they are fighting a losing war.

D-Day will happen soon, many cows have surrendered, the end is near.

Nope, I was at my homies house and he ran that shit at 4k, upscaled... XB1S 4k gaming console confirmed, according to Sony rules.

Mindblowning? How about short life 14 nm FinFET Global Foundry and 16 nm FinFET TSMC process tech?

http://www.globalfoundries.com/newsroom/press-releases/2016/09/14/globalfoundries-extends-roadmap-to-deliver-industry-s-leading-performance-offering-of-7nm-finfet-technology

PS5 and Scorpio replacement potential hardware...

“Leading-edge technologies like GLOBALFOUNDRIES 7nm FinFET are an important part of how we deliver our long-term roadmap of computing and graphics products that are capable of powering the next generation of computing experiences,” said Dr. Lisa Su, president and CEO, AMD. “We look forward to continuing our close collaboration with GLOBALFOUNDRIES as they extend the solid execution and technology foundation they are building at 14nm to deploy high-performance, low-power 7nm technology in the coming years.”

GLOBALFOUNDRIES’ 7nm FinFET technology will be supported by a full platform of foundation and complex intellectual property (IP), including an application-specific integrated circuit (ASIC) offering. Test chips with IP from lead customers have already started running in Fab 8. The technology is expected to be ready for customer product design starts in the second half of 2017, with ramp to risk production in early 2018.

It looks like year 2019/2020 for PS5 and Scorpio replacement hardware. It's expected AMD's NAVI GPU would be based on this process node.

There's a high probability that 7 nm FinFET AMD PC SKUs would come before game consoles. At this point, RX-680 or RX-780 would be proper 4K/60fps GPUs.

Both Sony and MS has evolved game console hardware plans.

2016 to 2019 = 3 years for PS5.

2017 to 2020 = 3 years for Scorpio replacement.

Both Sony and MS has access to AMD's multi-year road maps.

This is stupid ass PR.

It's an endless cycle, these PR people bounce around and their job is to sell, sell, sell.

----

Then again, I already said 1000+ I'm not interested in this midgen consoles.

This year gamers interested have a PS4Pro option, and a year+ from now we'll have an Xbone Scorpio option.

I'll be waiting for the XbTwo/PS5//NX/Xbox 4/etc

You stood by that same PR for the duration of this gen when it was "everything is 1080p on Xbox One" with the upscaler.

No, I did not.

Perhaps you did, but I didn't.

I don't stand by any PR (including stupid PR from House in this situation)...I know way too much about marketing (educated) and I've said not to trust PR for over a decade for all companies.

I do care about END results (frame rate/resolution/AI/etc) produced at my house with my equipment, but I do not care what some marketing dimwitted goon has to say. Their job is to entice morons anyways.

What the heck is this offtopic ad hominem buffoonery? lol. I'm not sure why you would be so angry to post this strange stalker-like off topic trolling above, but I'll try to defuse the situation you are trying to create for no reason with some tender loving care, brother.

Firstly, you should realize not everyone is going to post in every thread you want them too, right? That doesn't prove anything. What if I was sick? What if I was away? What if I'm busy? You don't see me bothered by your posts or your absences. lol.

What you should do instead of fanboying, stalking, and trying to talk sh**, is wait for a response from users that are ACTUALLY posting in the thread and then reply to the users in that thread. Instead of what you did here which was instigate some sort of fanboy stalking and trolling based on someone's absence and various companies you are fixated on.

There is a separation here that you don't seem to grasp. I own the various consoles since their launches and my opinion is based on my experiences with my machines and equipment. You can't even say that, as you don't own the big three consoles of this gen. You should worry about your situation or just staying on topic, amigo. :)

Dude, keep it in your pants and get on subject. :P Please? Seriously, there is no need for the creep factor or fixating on users. You could just send a PM if you really wanted to know, but trying to bully users, or troll people is juvenile bro.

I understand people can get a man-crush, but I wasn't even interested in this thread at all and didn't care to post because I don't give two shits about the PS4Pro or Xbone Scorpio. If I hadn't been alerted to your love note by a few friends, I would have not posted as this thread is about PR which I despise and PS4Pro which I don't care for.

Also, for the record, I don't post much at Gamespot anymore; this place has been going downhill for a longtime. I already covered the subject of this dumb ass PR in another post.

Sure bruh. I believe you. With a sig like that you have your head so far up your ass you can't tell if the PS4 is launching or being decommissioned. From now on I will refer to you as SolidDreamer.

You fell right in line with the hype all gen and ate it up. I'm not mad at you though.

I don't even know who you are, bruh.

Regarding HYPE all gen, if you mean I bought the consoles at launch 2012 (Wii U) and 2013 (Xbone and PS4). That's what I do every gen.

That's right, I bought the machines at launch and let the software speak volumes to me, not stupid marketing and fankids here. I bought a 360 back in 2005 launch a year before the PS3 and Wii existed. I got the PS3 and Wii in 2006 at their launches. I did the same for the PS2, Xbox 1 OG, Gamecube, Dreamcast, Saturn, Playstation, N64, SNES, Genesis, etc. I've been PC gaming since the before the original Wolfenstein 3D.

I don't let PR people and fankids dictate my purchases and my gaming experiences. I let people with less games and less machines to game on get worried about this stupid PR junk.

Not sure what you are talking about, but I already said this is dumb ass PR, and that people shouldn't trust PR, and I'm moving on to the next topic. Laterz! :P

Didn't read all that crap. You do know me though. I was the other Gamespotter of the year and I am only messing with you. Praise be to Allah!

I'm sure he wouldn't make statement like this unless they've already cleared it with their lawyers.

@SolidTy: TL:DR but i'm sure it was a good read though :P

You were politely owned, you didn't miss anything you haven't seen before.

Happy Friday! :P

Microsoft only ever said their games output at 1080p, which is completely accurate, everything on these consoles outputs at 1080p but what the games render at is something completely different.

House is simply trying to damage control a console that is half baked for a medium it can't actually handle.

The voice of reason in this thread. Too bad lems will ignore you.

"Sony is teh devil!!1"

Scorpio isn't going to run everything in native 4k either, you hypocrites.

@ronvalencia: What's your evaluation of the ps4 pro's hardware including upscale sauce it claims to have?

The PS4 Pro? Should be called The PS4 Amateur, bahahahahahaaa!!!!

Ahem.....

Yeah.

So just hot air coming from you again, gotcha.

PS...It's Saturday, you should stop living in the past :P

PS4 Pro's effective memory bandwidth gimps it's TFLOPS number but that's my general comments with high TFLOPS AMD GPUs.

One of the main reasons for GTX 980's good effective results are due to higher effective memory bandwidth via powerful memory compression feature.

Most PC benchmarks roughly follows the above effective memory bandwidth template. MS has noticed this problem with AMD GPUs and bump up Scorpio's raw memory bandwidth.

You should able to see why Fury X has 980 Ti like results i.e. it's 8.6 TFLOPS gimped by effective memory bandwidth. R9-390X has about 311 GB/s effective memory bandwidth.

GTX 1080's 9 TFLOPs is backed by 577 GB/s effective memory bandwidth.

Like AMD Bulldozer, AMD is f**king stubborn. HBM v2 is good but that's not mainstream memory solution.

4K checkerboard rendering is NOT upscale since it has odd or even rendered pixels at their native position, but it's not full native rendered frame buffer.

4K checkerboard rendering enables the machine to nearly halve the memory bandwidth requirements hence enables 2K/3K GPU to reach very near 4K results. Remember, 4K blu-ray video stream is only a very good approximation from uncompressed video stream as H.265 video format is a lossy compression with temporal and motion pixel reconstruction.

Yeah if anything this gen and the previous made us wish for 1080/30 or 1080/60 with a stable framerate.

Instead of the 900/30 or 1080/30 we've been getting but with framedrops :/

"I think that whatever the term is, it's a question of whether people see a demonstrable difference in the game experience or not, rather than the term we use to apply to it."

That... That guy should stay away from interviews, the last thing he wants people to realise is that "if people can't tell the difference we can call it what ever we want to call it" mentality is borderline taking the piss out of the consumer.

4K checkerboard rendering is NOT upscale since it has odd or even rendered pixels at their native position, but it's not full native rendered frame buffer.

4K checkerboard rendering enables the machine to nearly halve the memory bandwidth requirements hence enables 2K/3K GPU to reach very near 4K results. Remember, 4K blu-ray video stream is only a very good approximation from uncompressed video stream as H.265 video format is a lossy compression with temporal and motion pixel reconstruction.

So I assume it will have a slight pixelated look to it?... Maybe?... I watched the 4K PS4Pro footage on my 40" monitor and the Mass Effect footage didn't look so sharp, borderline looks like 1440p footage.

@xantufrog: How? How would that not be enough? If games keep their current console settings then they could easily run at 4K on a RX 480. Scorpio will be much faster than that so it would not only run most games at 4K but also increase graphical fidelity.

No one will be suing Sony for saying the PS4 Pro can do native 4k. All they need is one game running with native 4k resolution and they can shout their claims from the highest mountain and suffer no repercussions what so ever.

It's alright, it's Playstation. It's all cool when they BS, fully accepted by all.