What are peoples opinion on the Tropes Vs Women video?

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#1 Posted by Raxzor (5399 posts) -

If you haven't seen it yet here's the link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q

If you don't know what it is a video that was funded by a kickstarter project about sexism in games and how women are always portrayed as the victim. IMO she has some good points but it all seems very preachy and she doesn't really state that the vast majority of gamers are male, so the game makers naturally design for their core audience. 

#2 Posted by lostrib (44572 posts) -

Wow she finally produced something after taking like 250,000 dollars 

#3 Posted by DanielDust (15402 posts) -
As you said, most gamers are males, "most" (will not use all) males want to save women, besides, it's not such a clear distinction, man strong, woman weak, there are quite a few games with capable female characters (especially games played with a party of characters) and there are a few, but well known games with a female as the main character, like Tomb Raider, Blood Rayne, etc.
#4 Posted by Stinger78 (5831 posts) -
Sure, there are plenty of games with hero-male characters saving damsel-female characters in the end, but there are plenty of games with lead female or equal-female characters: Golden Axe (series) Tomb Raider (series) Ms. Pac-Man Blades of Vengeance Bloodrayne Dead or Alive (series) Tekken (series) Soul Edge / Blade / Calibur (series) Bayonetta Portal / Portal 2 Left 4 Dead / Left 4 Dead 2 Guitar Hero (series) Rock Band (series) Metroid (series) Fuzion Frenzy Fighting Force Alien Storm Alien vs Predator Cadillacs and Dinosaurs Dino Crisis R.E. 2, 3, Code Veronica, and 5 Zombie Revenge Mario Kart (series) Oni Heavy Metal FAKK 2 Alice (several games on PC) Parasite Eve At least 1 Silent Hill game, and many other fighting game series. I'm sure there are plenty of others, and while there are more male-hero games, those were just a few that came to mind.
#5 Posted by MacBoomStick (1822 posts) -

My opinion is that she just read crap from Wikipedia and did no analysis.

#6 Posted by lostrib (44572 posts) -

Sure, there are plenty of games with hero-male characters saving damsel-female characters in the end, but there are plenty of games with lead female or equal-female characters: Golden Axe (series) Tomb Raider (series) Ms. Pac-Man Blades of Vengeance Bloodrayne Dead or Alive (series) Tekken (series) Soul Edge / Blade / Calibur (series) Bayonetta Portal / Portal 2 Left 4 Dead / Left 4 Dead 2 Guitar Hero (series) Rock Band (series) Metroid (series) Fuzion Frenzy Fighting Force Alien Storm Alien vs Predator Cadillacs and Dinosaurs Dino Crisis R.E. 2, 3, Code Veronica, and 5 Zombie Revenge Mario Kart (series) Oni Heavy Metal FAKK 2 Alice (several games on PC) Parasite Eve At least 1 Silent Hill game, and many other fighting game series. I'm sure there are plenty of others, and while there are more male-hero games, those were just a few that came to mind.Stinger78

Probably complain something about objectifying women or I'm sure the female lead gets saved by a man at some point and that would be sexist too

#7 Posted by KalDurenik (3768 posts) -
Is she the one that took 250 000$ with kickstarter just to write opinions that make no sense because if i remember correct she said that a female character cant be weak but is not allowed to be strong? I still have no idea what she is drooling about all i know she have some crazy people following her :(
#8 Posted by DanielDust (15402 posts) -
[QUOTE="KalDurenik"]Is she the one that took 250 000$ with kickstarter just to write opinions that make no sense because if i remember correct she said that a female character cant be weak but is not allowed to be strong? I still have no idea what she is drooling about all i know she have some crazy people following her :(

You guys keep mentioning 250K, did she really get so much money for such a thing? how can 250K buy only something like this, or was it more to it? people make movies with multiple actors with 250K, they even add some minimal special effects.
#9 Posted by lostrib (44572 posts) -

[QUOTE="KalDurenik"]Is she the one that took 250 000$ with kickstarter just to write opinions that make no sense because if i remember correct she said that a female character cant be weak but is not allowed to be strong? I still have no idea what she is drooling about all i know she have some crazy people following her :(DanielDust
You guys keep mentioning 250K, did she really get so much money for such a thing? how can 250K buy only something like this, or was it more to it? people make movies with multiple actors with 250K, they even add some minimal special effects.

After double checking, it was actually a little over 150K, to buy games and produce the videos

#10 Posted by rissbo (49 posts) -

One thing I am curious about is did she play those modern games which are in the picture she had on kickstarter (one with bunch of games). So far  only a bunch of older titles are being mentioned. As for the subject, i am kinda indifferent when people mention violence, sexism and whatever when i know they have some agenda already - what can you expect from a feminist to say about sexism in video games? ... yeah

#11 Posted by supertrooper23 (900 posts) -
so she really got 250k? and that video is all she has to show for it so far? lol....
#12 Posted by KalDurenik (3768 posts) -
[QUOTE="DanielDust"][QUOTE="KalDurenik"]Is she the one that took 250 000$ with kickstarter just to write opinions that make no sense because if i remember correct she said that a female character cant be weak but is not allowed to be strong? I still have no idea what she is drooling about all i know she have some crazy people following her :(

You guys keep mentioning 250K, did she really get so much money for such a thing? how can 250K buy only something like this, or was it more to it? people make movies with multiple actors with 250K, they even add some minimal special effects.

Ah sorry it was a while ago.. its 158K
#13 Posted by ampiva (1250 posts) -
Absolute garbage by a scam artist. After all the money idiots gave her, her new videos are exactly the same format as her previous ones, hope you people got your money's worth, lol.
#14 Posted by 8-Bitterness (3707 posts) -
What a load of stupid crap. Wish she and sites like Kotaku and stupid feminists didn't get so much attention (and money).
#15 Posted by MythPro1 (2746 posts) -
so she really got 250k? and that video is all she has to show for it so far? lol....supertrooper23
She only asked for $6,000.
#16 Posted by guynamedbilly (12967 posts) -
People need to keep in mind that she only asked for 6k. It was a right place right time kind of situation. That still seems like a lot for that kind of video, but then I was not the audience for it and didn't spend any on it. People spend their money on dumb stuff all the time. The points made are the only points that are ever made because women and men are different. News flash! Men and women are different physically and chemically. People do tend to be extra poopy on the internet though, and the attitudes brought against her prove that there is some problem. Unfortunately, it seems that this effort, like many others, only points out the obvious differences without addressing what really needs to change.
#17 Posted by lostrib (44572 posts) -

[QUOTE="supertrooper23"]so she really got 250k? and that video is all she has to show for it so far? lol....MythPro1
She only asked for $6,000.

but she got 150K

#18 Posted by biggest_loser (24180 posts) -

One thing I am curious about is did she play those modern games which are in the picture she had on kickstarter (one with bunch of games). So far  only a bunch of older titles are being mentioned. As for the subject, i am kinda indifferent when people mention violence, sexism and whatever when i know they have some agenda already - what can you expect from a feminist to say about sexism in video games? ... yeah

rissbo

What a load of stupid crap. Wish she and sites like Kotaku and stupid feminists didn't get so much attention (and money).

8-Bitterness

I think you two blokes need to take a cold shower for a minute. 

First rissbo, this is only the first video so she might have played the modern games for later episodes. Second, well of course she has an agenda. Its an information video addressing a problem in the gaming culture that she wants to change. An agenda doesn't have to have a negative connotation.

To both of you I would like you to be a lot less critical when you use the term feminists. I don't want this schoolboy attitude of 'blood feminists' coming onto this board. Blokes have been saying that since I was in high school without actually understanding what the term means. Men can be feminists. Clint Eastwood regards himself as a feminist. 

I take offense when you say 'stupid feminists' just so you know. 

It is about fighting for gender equality and regardless of what some cavemen on the Internet think (check out the Giant Bomb community if you dare) the boys club culture in gaming is coming to an end as the medium reaches a broader demographic including women. 

You blokes are smarter than that so do your research on this ideology before you criticise it. There's enough misinformation on the Internet as it is. 

Start with this article if you want to learn more. Its a nice summary. 

Also take a look at some of the crap this girl has had stacked up against her here: 

http://www.dailydot.com/society/rape-misogyny-female-geek-gamers-culture/
 

#19 Posted by rissbo (49 posts) -

First rissbo, this is only the first video so she might have played the modern games for later episodes.

biggest_loser

Sure, i was just wondering.

Second, well of course she has an agenda. Its an information video addressing a problem in the gaming culture that she wants to change. An agenda doesn't have to have a negative connotation.

biggest_loser

Well, maybe what I said did come off a bit too strong and not so clear. Of course it's not necessarily negative but its also not necessarily objective since she sees things from a feminist perspective. And to tell you the truth, I am sick off people demonizing gamers and video games - women haters, mass murderers... Maybe I am wrong but I see this stuff as a part of that pattern of showing games and gamers in a bad light. Of course the cyber scum who threatened this girl/woman didn't help either.

#20 Posted by biggest_loser (24180 posts) -

Well, maybe what I said did come off a bit too strong and not so clear. Of course it's not necessarily negative but its also not necessarily objective since she sees things from a feminist perspective. And to tell you the truth, I am sick off people demonizing gamers and video games - women haters, mass murderers... Maybe I am wrong but I see this stuff as a part of that pattern of showing games and gamers in a bad light. Of course the cyber scum who threatened this girl/woman didn't help either.

rissbo

I don't think the video should be objective though. She is a feminist and she is conveying her own problems and emotions with how gender is represented. 

There is some historical stuff in there which is presented objectively, like showing King Kong. 

And I think that second line is interested but also a bit off the mark.

Clearly, she IS a gamer. She is not saying that all gamers are evil. She just wants the games themselves to be, ultimately, better games by broadening their appeal to include women as more important parts of the story.

Yes there has been a lot of negative crap about games recently but this isn't new. Doom was blamed for Columbine all those years ago. 

But I don't see this as demonising games or gamers. More often then not they bring that on themselves. This girl is trying to improve the medium. 
 

#21 Posted by rissbo (49 posts) -

I don't think the video should be objective though.

biggest_loser

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. :D

Clearly, she IS a gamer. She is not saying that all gamers are evil. She just wants the games themselves to be, ultimately, better games by broadening their appeal to include women as more important parts of the story.

biggest_loser

I'm all for that! We need more girl/women gamers, publishing executives, game developers, that's for sure. But it seems to me that there are already number of games in which both genders can enjoy equally. If i find some game repulsive or something, I don't go: " Whoah, this game offends me!". I just play the ones which resonate with me. I am not saying that there is no room for improvement, but blaming games (certain games) for being sexist is like blaming horror movies for being scary. There are much more movie genres from which you can choose, you don't have to watch horror movies- if you get my drift...

edit - to clarify: Is Duke Nukem a sexist game? Yes. Would the gaming world be better if it was banned or didn't exist? No!

edit 2 - But, who knows, maybe I would sing a different tune if the gaming world was dominated by women and I was one of the male minority surrounded by games made with women in mind. :)

#22 Posted by biggest_loser (24180 posts) -

But it seems to me that there are already number of games in which both genders can enjoy equally.

If i find some game repulsive or something, I don't go: "Whoah, this game offends me!". I just play the ones which resonate with me. I am not saying that there is no room for improvement, but blaming games (certain games) for being sexist is like blaming horror movies for being scary. There are much more movie genres from which you can choose, you don't have to watch horror movies- if you get my drift...

edit - to clarify: Is Duke Nukem a sexist game? Yes. Would the gaming world be better if it was banned or didn't exist? No!

edit 2 - But, who knows, maybe I would sing a different tune if the gaming world was dominated by women and I was one of the male minority surrounded by games made with women in mind. :)

rissbo

They aren't the same thing at all. Horror is a matter of taste. Even if people thought it was too scary they wouldn't say its immoral to be scary. 

Sexism in gaming is about ethics and fighting for a principle. Its about attacking a broad attitude that women are less important to games then men. 

Would the gaming world be better if Duke was banned? That's debatable lol but it would be better if it wasn't sexist and still existed. 

What you're suggesting is that people should just ignore it if they don't like it. Well maybe they want to play those same games without their gender looking like fools or being totally redundant. 

The boys club attitude, as shown by the response around this video, has to change. Ignoring it won't make it go away.  

#23 Posted by 8-Bitterness (3707 posts) -

[QUOTE="rissbo"]

But it seems to me that there are already number of games in which both genders can enjoy equally.

If i find some game repulsive or something, I don't go: "Whoah, this game offends me!". I just play the ones which resonate with me. I am not saying that there is no room for improvement, but blaming games (certain games) for being sexist is like blaming horror movies for being scary. There are much more movie genres from which you can choose, you don't have to watch horror movies- if you get my drift...

edit - to clarify: Is Duke Nukem a sexist game? Yes. Would the gaming world be better if it was banned or didn't exist? No!

edit 2 - But, who knows, maybe I would sing a different tune if the gaming world was dominated by women and I was one of the male minority surrounded by games made with women in mind. :)

biggest_loser

They aren't the same thing at all. Horror is a matter of taste. Even if people thought it was too scary they wouldn't say its immoral to be scary. 

Sexism in gaming is about ethics and fighting for a principle. Its about attacking a broad attitude that women are less important to games then men. 

Would the gaming world be better if Duke was banned? That's debatable lol but it would be better if it wasn't sexist and still existed. 

What you're suggesting is that people should just ignore it if they don't like it. Well maybe they want to play those same games without their gender looking like fools or being totally redundant. 

The boys club attitude, as shown by the response around this video, has to change. Ignoring it won't make it go away.  

Supporting it is not ignoring it. The problem is that instead of creating a new influx of female-oriented games you're all (an exaggeration, I know) trying to suppress the whole mass of "sexist" games which is just plain ridiculous. I'm not against females in any medium, but I strongly believe that if they wanna get in they have to earn it (and I'd expect the same thing to be asked of me if I wanted to be part of any other medium). There's nothing wrong with most of these tropes and there's certainly nothing wrong with pretty girls in games just like there's nothing wring super buff and cute cold as hell glorious guys. Most of these internet feminists (which is barely actual feminism since you are actually going for more than equality, you want actual superiority) miss the point completely and then get amazed when all they receive is pure hate when they enter a hard environment expecting to change everything around. Also to be pointed out how rarely you ever see women getting tortured and straight up liquefied in gory games. I'd say games really respect women, and if there's anything they disrespect or abuse it's only the sexual aspect of the female image, but not their identities.
#24 Posted by guynamedbilly (12967 posts) -

[QUOTE="rissbo"]

But it seems to me that there are already number of games in which both genders can enjoy equally.

If i find some game repulsive or something, I don't go: "Whoah, this game offends me!". I just play the ones which resonate with me. I am not saying that there is no room for improvement, but blaming games (certain games) for being sexist is like blaming horror movies for being scary. There are much more movie genres from which you can choose, you don't have to watch horror movies- if you get my drift...

edit - to clarify: Is Duke Nukem a sexist game? Yes. Would the gaming world be better if it was banned or didn't exist? No!

edit 2 - But, who knows, maybe I would sing a different tune if the gaming world was dominated by women and I was one of the male minority surrounded by games made with women in mind. :)

biggest_loser

They aren't the same thing at all. Horror is a matter of taste. Even if people thought it was too scary they wouldn't say its immoral to be scary. 

Sexism in gaming is about ethics and fighting for a principle. Its about attacking a broad attitude that women are less important to games then men. 

Would the gaming world be better if Duke was banned? That's debatable lol but it would be better if it wasn't sexist and still existed. 

What you're suggesting is that people should just ignore it if they don't like it. Well maybe they want to play those same games without their gender looking like fools or being totally redundant. 

The boys club attitude, as shown by the response around this video, has to change. Ignoring it won't make it go away.  

I don't understand what you are saying. How can you play "those same games" if you don't want to play those games? Masochism?

 

The horror argument is somewhat similar. Have you watched the video? She does not point out anything relevant to actual sexism and instead chooses to focus on products made mostly for men (and boys at the time since most of her sources were from twenty years ago) and say that since they are made for men they are sexist. That's not true anymore than saying fake dongs or panties are sexist. Any gender can make use of any of those products, but they are clearly designed with a certain demographic in mind.

 

The girl isn't making an argument for female equality, she simply states facts and presents them inside of vacuum of supposed feminist fury. There obviously is sexism in gaming, but it's mostly not in the games. It's in the business and personalities. And just suppose there were tons of sexist games, why is that specifically a bad thing? I have a feeling that the gamers who would say that it causes sexism in real life are mostly made up of the same gamers who say that violent games don't cause violence. Sexism is just an easier idea to accept without any proof I suppose.

 

I would like to revise my earlier comment about this video though. I think it's harmful to the discussion and manipulative of people's emotions. Some people think she's sincere and base their time and money on that.

#25 Posted by biggest_loser (24180 posts) -

Supporting it is not ignoring it. The problem is that instead of creating a new influx of female-oriented games you're all (an exaggeration, I know) trying to suppress the whole mass of "sexist" games which is just plain ridiculous. I'm not against females in any medium, but I strongly believe that if they wanna get in they have to earn it (and I'd expect the same thing to be asked of me if I wanted to be part of any other medium).

There's nothing wrong with most of these tropes and there's certainly nothing wrong with pretty girls in games just like there's nothing wring super buff and cute cold as hell glorious guys. Most of these internet feminists (which is barely actual feminism since you are actually going for more than equality, you want actual superiority) miss the point completely and then get amazed when all they receive is pure hate when they enter a hard environment expecting to change everything around.

Also to be pointed out how rarely you ever see women getting tortured and straight up liquefied in gory games. I'd say games really respect women, and if there's anything they disrespect or abuse it's only the sexual aspect of the female image, but not their identities.

8-Bitterness

What you said in bold is one of the strangest things I've heard all week. This is exactly the type of attitude that is wrong with this industry, the whole boys club mentality. First of all, they don't have to 'earn' anything. There is nothing to say that women can't play games, there's nothing to say we can't have female characters and there's nothing to say that men have a monopoly on gaming either. 

Why is it ridiculous to suppress sexist content? No one is arguing to ban games. They just want to cut out the smutty rubbish. No one is trying to take the games away, because these girls would love to play them without being insulted.  

No one said there's anything wrong with attractive male or female characters. The problem with the tropes is this: they're catering these games to appeal to males and basically ignoring females by changing female characters into male ones or making females weak and helpless in comparison to their male counterparts. Why? There's no proper reason for doing this. 

Feminism is not about superiority at all. It is an ideology about equality. Do your research. I don't think you know people on the internet well enough to say what they aren't proper feminists. They're surprised because they're fighting for something that won't hurt gaming or men at all and yet people think its okay to abuse them with death threats and what else. Its disgusting and it has to change.

Where is that respect though? I mean just recently there's the God of War trophy case that came up, the Borderlands 2 Girlfriend Mode, the whole Tomb Raider protection crisis, the Dead Island thing and the fact that so many female characters are over sexed. What is the identity though when a character is only treated like a sex object? 

#26 Posted by biggest_loser (24180 posts) -

I don't understand what you are saying. How can you play "those same games" if you don't want to play those games? Masochism?

guynamedbilly

That's simple. They'd like to play say shooters but have a female as resourceful as any male character and cut out the sexism. Isn't that obvious? 

Its a simple change that could be made without banning the game or something. 

The horror argument is somewhat similar. Have you watched the video? She does not point out anything relevant to actual sexism and instead chooses to focus on products made mostly for men (and boys at the time since most of her sources were from twenty years ago) and say that since they are made for men they are sexist. That's not true anymore than saying fake dongs or panties are sexist. Any gender can make use of any of those products, but they are clearly designed with a certain demographic in mind.

guynamedbilly

The sexism is very clear. Women in those old school games are treated as rewards or objects and made to look helpless compared to men, even when they're doing the same tasks. She isn't saying the players are sexist. She's saying that the representation is sexist, which it is really. Because there's nothing to say that girls weren't playing those games back then. She herself was a gamer playing those games. Its only now that people are looking more critically at these issues. And please, saying old computer games are for men as panties are for females is delusional. 

They're made for certain demographics but that doesn't mean the representation is right. There are still girls who want to enjoy them and shouldn't be distanced because a developer wants to appeal to the boys club.  

 

The girl isn't making an argument for female equality, she simply states facts and presents them inside of vacuum of supposed feminist fury. There obviously is sexism in gaming, but it's mostly not in the games. It's in the business and personalities. And just suppose there were tons of sexist games, why is that specifically a bad thing? I have a feeling that the gamers who would say that it causes sexism in real life are mostly made up of the same gamers who say that violent games don't cause violence. Sexism is just an easier idea to accept without any proof I suppose.

I would like to revise my earlier comment about this video though. I think it's harmful to the discussion and manipulative of people's emotions. Some people think she's sincere and base their time and money on that.

guynamedbilly

Again you're attempting to bring a negative connotation towards feminism without understanding it. She is looking for equality because she wants women to be treated as resourceful and as adept as men, not helpless and powerless. 

You're blind if you think its not in the games. Look closer dude: Duke, God of War, the over-sexed characters. The business and the personalities are filtering their attitude into the games. We had Epic saying they couldn't sell a female Gears game. 

Its a bad thing because people find it insulting and not just women. I'd much rather have smart female characters than ornaments or blockheads. I get a bit sick of the military macho crap. The medium is not going to mature if it can't grow up and represent both genders properly.

I don't know what you mean is manipulative but its not this video. She makes good points. 

#27 Posted by 8-Bitterness (3707 posts) -

biggest_loser

And still wanting to change how things are instead of balancing them out with new content. Nice mentality. And I didn't mean feminism in general, I meant the loud and idiotic minority of internet feminists spewing all this s*** all over the place. And really, just cuz it's popular right now, the God of War issue shouldn't be one.
Boo-hoo a game based on Greek mythology, which glorifies sex and violence, does just that. The achievment's fine even a woman came up with the name (which shouldn't matter, but I know it does to feminists). I must say the scene is not even that shocking, the elephant deaths are far worse, she's barely destroyed anwyay (obviously using the God of War stantard here). You can't claim every act where a female gets killed or made fun of in any way in a video game is wrong if there are hundreds more acts like those directed at males. Jokes are to be taken as jokes and fiction is to be taken as fiction, if you can't handle it well then just don't get involved in it.

#28 Posted by biggest_loser (24180 posts) -

[QUOTE="biggest_loser"]8-Bitterness


And still wanting to change how things are instead of balancing them out with new content. Nice mentality. And I didn't mean feminism in general, I meant the loud and idiotic minority of internet feminists spewing all this s*** all over the place. And really, just cuz it's popular right now, the God of War issue shouldn't be one.
Boo-hoo a game based on Greek mythology, which glorifies sex and violence, does just that. The achievment's fine even a woman came up with the name (which shouldn't matter, but I know it does to feminists). I must say the scene is not even that shocking, the elephant deaths are far worse, she's barely destroyed anwyay (obviously using the God of War stantard here). You can't claim every act where a female gets killed or made fun of in any way in a video game is wrong if there are hundreds more acts like those directed at males. Jokes are to be taken as jokes and fiction is to be taken as fiction, if you can't handle it well then just don't get involved in it.

I don't know what you mean by balancing them out with new content. How would that solve the attitude of gamers? 

I think you're still being extremely rude and insulting. Just because you don't agree with it they're loud and idiotic? Its not sh!t They want to play games where they won't look stupid, over-sexed or helpless. They're entitled to have some characters they can be invested into surely.

I was only talking about the achievement and that link doesn't tell me anything.

We're not talking about killing feminists. Not every girl who wants a fair go is a feminist either.

We're talking about the over-sexed characters, the way women are insulted or deduced into helpless characters.

The old "oh its just a joke" is pathetic. Its like a bully who says "ohhh I was only joking!"

Its not a matter of just saying 'oh don't play it if you can't handle it.' The culture has to change or blokes will continue to think they can treat girls like that crap. There's some awful stuff on the net going around and addressing it in games will be a start.
You remind me of a picture by the way:

tumblr_ldfzsbjNGJ1qf6jsyo1_500.jpg 

#29 Posted by 8-Bitterness (3707 posts) -

You remind me of a picture by the way:

tumblr_ldfzsbjNGJ1qf6jsyo1_500.jpg 

biggest_loser

Too bad I don't claim games are an art form and I oppose them being compared to other art forms like film. Nice try though.

#30 Posted by guynamedbilly (12967 posts) -
Again you're attempting to bring a negative connotation towards feminism without understanding it. She is looking for equality because she wants women to be treated as resourceful and as adept as men, not helpless and powerless. biggest_loser
I won't dispute your other points because that's your opinion and your welcome to it. On this though I wanted to clarify, I'm not arguing against feminism like you think I am. That was about the kind of "feminist" she is. What you've presented is not what she wants. She wants popularity and money and a podium to talk without taking questions from the audience. That's obvious by the material she was using in this video, and I'll admit I watched another video by someone contrasting her agenda and knowledge which is what changed my opinion so fast. He made a better argument. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI
#31 Posted by Elann2008 (33028 posts) -
Well, we're at least getting games like Tomb Raider on the market. But to the woman in the video, I say "yawn."
#33 Posted by KalDurenik (3768 posts) -
Wow... In the end she is not doing this because she care. She is doing this to get "famous" and to get money. Even if you were for equality she would most likely be the last person on earth that you should listen to. Because if you sit down and look at her arguments you will see that nothing she say make any sense. For example... Games are not allowed to have a weak female character. But she is NOT allowed to be strong. A female character cant be dependent on others... But she is NOT allowed to be independent. So one could say that she is arguing for there to be no female characters in games. And also why is it wrong if females are done in a certain way in game... But its okey for men to be decapitated, butchered, tortured, have perfect bodies and so on?
#34 Posted by whiskeystrike (12096 posts) -

It's a very good video, albeit slightly too informative. That said it is the first video of supposedly a 12 part series and I'm very curious as to what she's going going for the other vids.

I think people take the idea of criticism too personally. She makes it very clear throughout the video that you can enjoy something while still being critical of it and she restates the idea multiple times that she enjoys gaming and her criticisms aren't exactly demeaning their value as fun or entertainment.

A lot of the complaints I see make it clear that people aren't willing to watch the video or allow other people a say

#35 Posted by whiskeystrike (12096 posts) -

According to GAF here are what the rest of the videos will be

The Fighting F#@k Toy - Video #2
The Sexy Sidekick - Video #3
The Sexy Villainess - Video #4
Background Decoration - Video #5
Voodoo Priestess/Tribal Sorceress - Video #6
Women as Reward - Video #7
Mrs. Male Character - Video #8
Unattractive Equals Evil - Video #9
Man with Boobs - Video #10
Positive Female Characters! - Video #11
Top 10 Most Common Defenses of Sexism in Games - Video #12


I don't know the release schedule.

#36 Posted by Baranga (14217 posts) -


Where is that respect though? I mean just recently there's the God of War trophy case that came up,  the Dead Island thing

biggest_loser

Does it matter that a woman created the GoW achievements?

Regarding the Dead Island statue, that sort of collectible has been a staple of the horror genre for decades. Nobody would care if it was an Evil Dead prop. Should H. R. Giger's art be censored too? Is Species more or less mature than Dead Island?

As for Anita's video - I won't watch it because I have no idea what those games are. I hope it's better than her Bayonetta video, which was a poorly researched piece of trash.

From what I read it complains about having to save the princess in a couple of games.

I doubt that's a misogynistic trope. In my opinion it's an appeal to the natural instinct to save someone. That's one of the stronger human instincts. In a fantasy setting, the princess is there because that's tradition. Rejecting tradition is stupid. Acknowledging that it doesn't conform to modern standards is good, but that's not a good excuse to reject it.

If I'm not mistaken one of Sam Raimi's reasons for making the new Oz movie was that most fairy tales are about princesses and he wanted a dude to be the star.

#37 Posted by GarGx1 (4109 posts) -

So basically all games should never have anyone in danger and needing rescued, the hero/heroine must be a short, tall, fat, skinny, average build, well built and straight, gay bisexual. transgender, hermaphrodite :roll: Don't forget we can't have zombies either as that would be offensive to dead people

You know it's not this woman who really annoys me it's the idiots who decided to give her so much money to make such pointless youtube videos. She's a con woman spouting drivle and nothing more. Her major beef is with a fricking fox!

#38 Posted by psych2416256 (56 posts) -
damsel in distress isn't sexist, read some popular literature written for women by women like Twilgiht,some women enjoy the trope. just because it bothers some pop-culture blogger, doesn't mean the gaming industry should start changing immediately. truth is most of the gaming population is male and it's not feasible to change every main character to an independent strong woman who can do everything a man can but is not sexualized and never gets hurt so it doesn't promote rape."progressive" women like her are not the target audience for games,women in general aren't. and it's not because gaming is a "secret boys club", it's because believe it or not females and males are different and have different interests. she is terrible, keeps nagging on nintendo as being sexist (forgets METROID), "forgets" the zelda games where zelda is the protagonist, and blocks out the comment sections so there can be no discussion and no one can call her out on her BS.
#39 Posted by EliteM0nk3y (3382 posts) -
I watched the first video, I felt like I was getting a history lesson more than anything. While I think the idea behind the videos are good, based off the first, it seems it was poorly executed.
#40 Posted by Elann2008 (33028 posts) -

[QUOTE="biggest_loser"]


Where is that respect though? I mean just recently there's the God of War trophy case that came up,  the Dead Island thing

Baranga

Does it matter that a woman created the GoW achievements?

Regarding the Dead Island statue, that sort of collectible has been a staple of the horror genre for decades. Nobody would care if it was an Evil Dead prop. Should H. R. Giger's art be censored too? Is Species more or less mature than Dead Island?

As for Anita's video - I won't watch it because I have no idea what those games are. I hope it's better than her Bayonetta video, which was a poorly researched piece of trash.

From what I read it complains about having to save the princess in a couple of games.

I doubt that's a misogynistic trope. In my opinion it's an appeal to the natural instinct to save someone. That's one of the stronger human instincts. In a fantasy setting, the princess is there because that's tradition. Rejecting tradition is stupid. Acknowledging that it doesn't conform to modern standards is good, but that's not a good excuse to reject it.

If I'm not mistaken one of Sam Raimi's reasons for making the new Oz movie was that most fairy tales are about princesses and he wanted a dude to be the star.

Couldn't agree more. Then you had movies like Aliens where you had a strong female protagonist instead of a rambo-macho male lead. I don't see any men here complain about those movies.. i love the Aliens films. Even the new Prometheus film had a strong female lead character. This woman in the video is an attention seeker. She'd rather have mario be the princess. So the Princess saves the Plumber? That's plain stupid.
#41 Posted by DanielDust (15402 posts) -
[QUOTE="Baranga"]

[QUOTE="biggest_loser"]


Where is that respect though? I mean just recently there's the God of War trophy case that came up,  the Dead Island thing

Elann2008

Does it matter that a woman created the GoW achievements?

Regarding the Dead Island statue, that sort of collectible has been a staple of the horror genre for decades. Nobody would care if it was an Evil Dead prop. Should H. R. Giger's art be censored too? Is Species more or less mature than Dead Island?

As for Anita's video - I won't watch it because I have no idea what those games are. I hope it's better than her Bayonetta video, which was a poorly researched piece of trash.

From what I read it complains about having to save the princess in a couple of games.

I doubt that's a misogynistic trope. In my opinion it's an appeal to the natural instinct to save someone. That's one of the stronger human instincts. In a fantasy setting, the princess is there because that's tradition. Rejecting tradition is stupid. Acknowledging that it doesn't conform to modern standards is good, but that's not a good excuse to reject it.

If I'm not mistaken one of Sam Raimi's reasons for making the new Oz movie was that most fairy tales are about princesses and he wanted a dude to be the star.

Couldn't agree more. Then you had movies like Aliens where you had a strong female protagonist instead of a rambo-macho male lead. I don't see any men here complain about those movies.. i love the Aliens films. Even the new Prometheus film had a strong female lead character. This woman in the video is an attention seeker. She'd rather have mario be the princess. So the Princess saves the Plumber? That's plain stupid.

Prometheus was an absolutely dreadful movie, but be it, technically she was treated as some overzealous, confused and naive woman, not just strong (more like uptight).
#42 Posted by AAllxxjjnn (19988 posts) -
Would have been a more relevant video had she examined more recent games. Most of her examples are from an era where game stories were not the focus and were deliberately simple. I also think it's unfair to describe Peach as a 'reward' or 'trophy'. Samus removing her clothes based on player completion in Metroid is a more accurate example of using a woman as a reward, not saving Princess Peach from danger.
#43 Posted by Slashless (9515 posts) -

Took about 10 months to produce, but not gonna knock her for that. Many Youtubers fail to release on schedule, and I expected her to change a lot of things since she got a sh*t ton more money than what was previously expected.

But nothing really changed format wise from her pre-kickstarter page. The single thing that has changed is the flashy, and unnecessary animation in the beginning. And she looks a bit pampered up with additional make-up. After seeing the first video, either she blew the money on something else or her later videos will, hopefully, have better quality.

Now, onto the content of course.

She basically paraphrases (sometimes borderline plagiarizes) Wkipedia and TV Tropes, even using images from their respective page on "the damsel in distress". Nothing is analyzed like what was expected and she simply gives definitions.

She slams Miyamato(?) and Nintenndo for making this trope popular in the vidya industry, but forgets about Metroid, a series that, bar other M, destroyed the "damsel in distress" trope.

Also, Peach being kidnapped by Bowser doesn't "disempower women", the whole point of the game is platforming. The devs just needed an easy motive for doing said platforming, and threw in a simply 'stop evil dude from taking over kingdom" plotline. Rescuing a princess has been around since f*cking cave paintings, it's not some concoction by the misogynists at Nintendo to dehumanize the female gender.

There's also the slight things that rustle my jimmies like saying Zelda doesn't have her own game (she does, it sucked) and using Twin Snakes footage for MGS1.

Also complaining about women not being able to escape from their captors while men can is highly superficial. Since for the most part, games feature a male protagonist, having them not able to escape would defeat the purpose of putting them in that situation in the first place. And not forgetting the fact that in stealth missions getting caught usually entails a game over, implying the character can't escape from the circumstance. And not forgetting the fact the only reason Snake escapes from his cell in MGS3 is with the help of a woman.

Complain about re-releases still having the same 'plot' is also incredibly stupid. It's a re-release.

The whole video is just a history lesson with overdone feminist points. I guess I have a bit of a bias going into the video considering I view Anita as one of the worst Youtubers out there. Not because she's a feminist, that's stupid because so am I, anyone who wants the genders to be as close to equal as sanely possible is. Nah, I dislike Anita because she constantly uses fallacious points to support her terrible narrow-minded views. She once complained about trying to download movies on The Pirate Bay and seiing porn ads despite the fact that The Pirate Bay is used for illegal purposes and the only industry willing to stoop to the level of advertising on an illegal site is the Porn Industry. No porn ads = No Pirate bay. Use Adblock if it bothers you. Or, legally buy the movie.

She also complained the song "All I want for Christmas is you" to be sexist as it implys  all women need is a man in life, despite a man never being mentioned in the song.

Of course it's incredibly hard to criticize her because you get lumped in with the group that attacked her after starting her kickstarter. Any rational argument against her is met ith "WOW U MST BE MIS0G1N1ST!!!". I find the concept of a wight knight silly but comment like that make me change my mind.

Eh. at the end I'd give the video a 5/10.

Also, the funny thing is the "Damsel in Distress" trope is how she got that 150K in the first place. heh

#44 Posted by Elann2008 (33028 posts) -
^ Well said... although all things considered, 5/10 is too generous. She got what she wanted, which was a ton of money and her 15 minutes of fame. You'd think she'd make a bigger impression with all that money. Bottom line, she sucks.
#45 Posted by Renevent42 (5912 posts) -

Absolute rubbish. She's nothing more than a radical man hating feminist. Her videos are extremely biased...she had very strong opinions and made sweeping generalizations about women in gaming BEFORE she did her research. That's what the kickstarter was partly for, which was to actually buy games and play them for research purposes. Yet, she already had her basic conclusions before ever touching these games.

#46 Posted by skrat_01 (33767 posts) -

Nothing terribly special at all, and fairly innocent as far as any sort of youtube video making a claim goes.

Yeah there's a history of patriarchal damsel subject matter in popular and beloved games, fair enough, and that's often due to what industry perceives as the market and naturally as she pointed out, popular fiction.

And well, that's about it, and the vast majority of it is pretty innocent fantasy stuff, as fiction generally is.

Sure she does have a point, but there's no reason to blow it out of proportion, nor verbally nuke her own point - which is well, not surprising anyone I hope. Anyway worth keeping in mind this being a series means this is only the first video.

You guys keep mentioning 250K, did she really get so much money for such a thing? how can 250K buy only something like this, or was it more to it? people make movies with multiple actors with 250K, they even add some minimal special effects.DanielDust
It was well over 100k, and her original asking price was 9k - If I remember correctly.

It got media attention, then there was the criticism at the same time overshadowed by a pretty horrible backlash, and following this people starting to hurl money at her project.

The result was a giant cluster **** that recieved far too much money, which would've been better suited to some actual women's charities, support groups, organisations and so on, then well, a YouTube video series that had already been running, imo.

But otherwise, I have nfi what happened to that dosh, and that sours the whole process; even it boils down to people throwing money, in what seemed almost reactionary to the media frenzy and minority uproar at that time.

What a load of stupid crap. Wish she and sites like Kotaku and stupid feminists didn't get so much attention (and money).8-Bitterness
More often then not nothing wrong with discussion.

Problem is some ****ing horrible journalism and criticism that comes out and colours absolutely everything in proverbial ****. The whole 'David Jaffe is a misogynist' bile is up there with the bile thrown at critics or writers writing from a feminist angle about games.

And all the good stuff, that's actually worth a read on all sides gets completely shafted as a result.

#47 Posted by skrat_01 (33767 posts) -
Couldn't agree more. Then you had movies like Aliens where you had a strong female protagonist instead of a rambo-macho male lead. I don't see any men here complain about those movies.. i love the Aliens films. Even the new Prometheus film had a strong female lead character. This woman in the video is an attention seeker. She'd rather have mario be the princess. So the Princess saves the Plumber? That's plain stupid.Elann2008
The point at the end of it was 'popular games often feature an ineffective central female character, who can be objectified, there aren't many female characters who aren't'. It's a generalisation, particularly around the fact that these genres were generally made for young adolescent boys, but there's a pretty obvious point buried in it - that anyone on this forum would be aware of. This videos content is nothing worth getting all rowdy over, now naturally the internet has a whole lot more knowledge of anything positive or critical about female characters and representation in games, so you'll have to wait and see if it gets better representation. Personally I think the whole ordeal is often a lot murkier - the positives and negatives.
#48 Posted by JigglyWiggly_ (23996 posts) -
lel
#49 Posted by skrat_01 (33767 posts) -

[QUOTE="biggest_loser"]


Where is that respect though? I mean just recently there's the God of War trophy case that came up,  the Dead Island thing

Baranga

Does it matter that a woman created the GoW achievements?

Regarding the Dead Island statue, that sort of collectible has been a staple of the horror genre for decades. Nobody would care if it was an Evil Dead prop. Should H. R. Giger's art be censored too? Is Species more or less mature than Dead Island?

As for Anita's video - I won't watch it because I have no idea what those games are. I hope it's better than her Bayonetta video, which was a poorly researched piece of trash.

From what I read it complains about having to save the princess in a couple of games.

I doubt that's a misogynistic trope. In my opinion it's an appeal to the natural instinct to save someone. That's one of the stronger human instincts. In a fantasy setting, the princess is there because that's tradition. Rejecting tradition is stupid. Acknowledging that it doesn't conform to modern standards is good, but that's not a good excuse to reject it.

If I'm not mistaken one of Sam Raimi's reasons for making the new Oz movie was that most fairy tales are about princesses and he wanted a dude to be the star.

Many games developers and critics, writers, academics, and hell gamers at the moment - actively want to legitimise games as a form of media that is actually mature. Hence why there's so much backlash against the tacky gore-porn that is the Dead Island statue, or the GoW Ascension achievement, whilst there wasn't any in the past; we've seen this with all kinds of other media, your Two Penny Terribles, and pulp fiction, the exploitation era of film and so on. This kind of discussion is a good thing, however I wouldn't go as far as saying that there's an advocacy for censoring art. Well for most of the part, I think stuff like Warren Spector saying 'games like Lollipop Chainsaw shouldn't exist' is absolutely dangerous and outright wrong stuff (and a bit depressing for me because I admire the guy), but most critics are generally beating the maturity and legitimacy drum. Which is fine, when every medium has a growth spurt and wants to be an adult like everyone else, it goes through the same growing pains. Which has its upsides and downsides; and if anything I'd say points out that tacky games that could be said to be tasteless like Lollipop Chainsaw or Bayonetta damn well have a place and can be legitimate as anything else, even if they have their downfalls - and there's that point of view that's been reciprocating (as it has with everything else, and still is to this day). I'd rather see art made in response to art, and for arts sake, as well as a healthy discussion then it going any one way. Now that, that would be ****ing horrible.
#50 Posted by Renevent42 (5912 posts) -

Games are already a form of media that is mature. How is the Dead Island "gore porn" anyway? How is it any different than what actually goes on in game, or in any other similarly violent game? How is it different than hundreds or thousands of violent movies that had provocative mixture of violence and the female body/sex/etc?

The outrage over that statuette is silly, to put it politely.