The best proof of GOD is

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hiphops_savior

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#201 hiphops_savior
Member since 2007 • 8535 Posts

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

[QUOTE="LordQuorthon"]

The same could be said about vampires, dragons, zombies, Nyarlathotep, the Loch Ness monster, mermaids, Odin, Zeus or Quetzatcoatl. The real issue that should be debated is whether or not living your life under the assumption that something whose existence can't be proven does exist is a good idea.

In general, I don't think it's a good idea. However, I also believe that anything that rescues a person from, let's say, heroin addiction, is a good thing, even if it is basically a fairy tale. In those kind of cases, I choose to just shut up and let that fairy tale do its magic.

toast_burner

My point is that people act like science proves all, but it doesnt. Not are there so many things that they are wrong about and so many things that they don't know, but NO ONE can even comprehend the origin of overything. It is simply impossible and it seems a tad rediculous that there are people out there who devote their lives to trying to find out the root of everything. Who cares? You cannot prove it and it wont get you anywhere. Just live life.

Doesn't the same apply to religion? Religiou people try to explain the origin of everything, only difference is science uses evidence while religion is just wild ideas.

The fact that we have finite minds means that we can never truly comprehend everything, whether through science or religion. However, I believed that God came down to earth to make himself comprehensible. He did through being born a human's birth, living a human life. He lived with hunger, love, emotions. He lived a sinless life, and dying a cruel and unusual death. Only to be raised to life three days later. Whether you believe it or not is up to you. All I did is present the reasons why I believe in what I believe.
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Mind_Mover

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#203 Mind_Mover
Member since 2005 • 1489 Posts

[QUOTE="Mind_Mover"]I can't proove my love for someone, but if i feel it and accept it then to me it is true.Zeviander
But what about the person you love? How do they know you love them without you proving it to them?

Good question, hard to answer. They don't know what you truely feel, because everyone feels love in their own way. You could have a loving mother who cares for you, cooks for you, cleans your room and you'd think she loves you, or you could have an abusive mother who treats you like crap and you'd think she doesn't love you BUT, what if she truely does love you?. You can only know what true love is if you yourself can feel it.

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#204 Mind_Mover
Member since 2005 • 1489 Posts

[QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="Mind_Mover"]I can't proove my love for someone, but if i feel it and accept it then to me it is true.GameGuy642003
But what about the person you love? How do they know you love them without you proving it to them?

That is a good question right there. In the case of God I would say that he has proven his love for us by sending his son Jesus Christ to atone for our sins and save us from death. It should also be noted that this is not divine child abuse because Jesus willingly laid down His life for His sheep (His covanent people)

If jesus is proof that god loves us, then hitler must be proof that god is bipolar.

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#205 Mind_Mover
Member since 2005 • 1489 Posts

Why wouldn't god want everyone to believe in his existence? -Sun_Tzu-
I believe he exists but **** religion so, what if god is actually an evil mofo or really doesn't care? If you was the most powerfull person in existance would you care as much as you care for lets say, the bacteria that live on ants?

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psymon100

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#206 psymon100
Member since 2012 • 6835 Posts

It's a matter of faith. If God revealed himself directly to everyone then there would be consequences, people would only worship and love God because they know God exists, people would only do good things becausee of that, not because they truly want to be good people or truly love God.

The way God does it now is perfect because the people who truly love God will have faith and worship God and will do good things, God can see who is truly righteous and who isn't.

ShadowMoses900

So the best proof for God is faith?

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HoolaHoopMan

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#207 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts
[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"][QUOTE="Chickity_China"]

Not in my beliefs. Innocent babies die all other the world, there's nothing benevolent about that.

Chickity_China
Then why worship such a jerk?

Are you being sarcastic or is this just a dumb question? Because he gives much more than he takes.

Really? Are we talking about you or the child with physical/mental birth defects?
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#208 deactivated-59913425220eb
Member since 2002 • 1772 Posts

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"][QUOTE="Zeviander"] But what about the person you love? How do they know you love them without you proving it to them? Mind_Mover

That is a good question right there. In the case of God I would say that he has proven his love for us by sending his son Jesus Christ to atone for our sins and save us from death. It should also be noted that this is not divine child abuse because Jesus willingly laid down His life for His sheep (His covanent people)

If jesus is proof that god loves us, then hitler must be proof that god is bipolar.

Huh?
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#209 Chickity_China
Member since 2007 • 2322 Posts
[QUOTE="Chickity_China"]That's why religion has and always will be there to fill in the holes.Zeviander
We will fill in more holes as we go along. Saying "there will always be more questions" is misleading. Sure, there will be more questions, like "what does the 13th dimension look like?" but questions about our visible, objective universe? Likely won't be very many left in the next hundred years. A God of the gaps argument just defeats the purpose of arguing in favor of religion. Then again, it might be why religious belief is waning, especially with new generations of young people who have access to proper science classes.

You clearly don't understand much about science. What is unequivocally true is that the more we learn, the more questions we have. One discovery leads to 10 more questions. The only thing that's changing is the scope of our questions becoming more and more specific. We used to ask questions like how do humans think? When we discovered it was the result of electrochemical conduction in the nervous system, we started asking questions like how does the brain keep track of time, what's the point of dreaming, what does baseline brain activity represent, and how is electrical activity integrated into what we know as consciousness? These questions we never even dreamed about asking hundreds of years ago but thanks to scientific advancement we now have more questions than ever before. It's naive to think we will find the answers to all questions.
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#210 Shinobi-Neo
Member since 2005 • 254 Posts

I guess there is no proof of God. All people need is someone stronger to believe in, because reality is so cruel.

There are many answers of Philosophers about God´s possible existence, one for example says, God is actually what is good in human kind, so as long as people are good, God will exist. Othe theories even say, because human beings have a soul compared to animals, there must be a way to explain God´s existence in connection with the possible existence of our souls. However, in general God should not be only connected to the church yet mainly with the believe itself. As long as people believe in what is good in human kind, the good could somehow overbalance the "bad" (violence etc.),

It´s possible that alone the believe in God that keep someone alive. Even though God himself in not a being to be seen, how some Philsophers said, he´s rather someone to believe in when there is nothing left but hope.

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#211 GrayF0X786
Member since 2012 • 4185 Posts

[QUOTE="toast_burner"]

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

My point is that people act like science proves all, but it doesnt. Not are there so many things that they are wrong about and so many things that they don't know, but NO ONE can even comprehend the origin of overything. It is simply impossible and it seems a tad rediculous that there are people out there who devote their lives to trying to find out the root of everything. Who cares? You cannot prove it and it wont get you anywhere. Just live life.

hiphops_savior

Doesn't the same apply to religion? Religiou people try to explain the origin of everything, only difference is science uses evidence while religion is just wild ideas.

The fact that we have finite minds means that we can never truly comprehend everything, whether through science or religion. However, I believed that God came down to earth to make himself comprehensible. He did through being born a human's birth, living a human life. He lived with hunger, love, emotions. He lived a sinless life, and dying a cruel and unusual death. Only to be raised to life three days later. Whether you believe it or not is up to you. All I did is present the reasons why I believe in what I believe.

please stop. :cry:

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#212 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="Chickity_China"]That's why religion has and always will be there to fill in the holes.Zeviander
We will fill in more holes as we go along. Saying "there will always be more questions" is misleading. Sure, there will be more questions, like "what does the 13th dimension look like?" but questions about our visible, objective universe? Likely won't be very many left in the next hundred years. A God of the gaps argument just defeats the purpose of arguing in favor of religion. Then again, it might be why religious belief is waning, especially with new generations of young people who have access to proper science classes.

God is the ever receeding pocket of scientific ignorance

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dramaybaz

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#213 dramaybaz
Member since 2005 • 6020 Posts
ITT: people that know a couple of things from science and think they can argue, and equally bigoted people from both sides.
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#214 Protoford
Member since 2007 • 372 Posts

[QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="Chickity_China"]That's why religion has and always will be there to fill in the holes.wis3boi

We will fill in more holes as we go along. Saying "there will always be more questions" is misleading. Sure, there will be more questions, like "what does the 13th dimension look like?" but questions about our visible, objective universe? Likely won't be very many left in the next hundred years. A God of the gaps argument just defeats the purpose of arguing in favor of religion. Then again, it might be why religious belief is waning, especially with new generations of young people who have access to proper science classes.

God is the ever receeding pocket of scientific ignorance

The deeper I dive into science, the more I see the handiwork of God.

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#215 psymon100
Member since 2012 • 6835 Posts

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="Zeviander"] We will fill in more holes as we go along. Saying "there will always be more questions" is misleading. Sure, there will be more questions, like "what does the 13th dimension look like?" but questions about our visible, objective universe? Likely won't be very many left in the next hundred years. A God of the gaps argument just defeats the purpose of arguing in favor of religion. Then again, it might be why religious belief is waning, especially with new generations of young people who have access to proper science classes.Protoford

God is the ever receeding pocket of scientific ignorance

The deeper I dive into science, the more I see the handiwork of God.

How so?

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#216 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="Protoford"]

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

God is the ever receeding pocket of scientific ignorance

psymon100

The deeper I dive into science, the more I see the handiwork of God.

How so?

consumer justification for their 'purchase' so to speak

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#217 SulIy
Member since 2013 • 113 Posts
It's naive to think we will find the answers to all questions.Chickity_China
It's naive to think that because we don't know the answers to those questions that we should just assume the answer is a deity. Zeviander nailed it, "God of the gaps" shows just how frail religion really is.
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#218 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
That is a good question right there. In the case of God I would say that he has proven his love for us by sending his son Jesus Christ to atone for our sins and save us from death. It should also be noted that this is not divine child abuse because Jesus willingly laid down His life for His sheep (His covanent people)GameGuy642003
Have you ever actually stepped back and read your evangelism to yourself objectively? Jesus is a mostly ahistorical figure, who, through centuries of rewrites and translations has been made out to be far more than what he likely was as a real person. Lol @ sheep. Yep, that's precisely the case. Also, proving Jesus exists does not by default prove God exists. That would require a whole other, far more extravagant set of evidence.
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#219 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
It's naive to think we will find the answers to all questions.Chickity_China
It's human nature to want to. Fitting "God" in where science is only starting to explore is the naïve point of view. It assumes the answer, rather than being patient and waiting for the right answer to be discovered. Or, like many scientists throughout history, seeking an answer to a question without resorting to Goddidit. Breaking down all walls that might prevent the discovery of the truth. Including the implied "necessity" of God and religion. The best science is that which is done in a realm void of any faith.
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#220 deactivated-59913425220eb
Member since 2002 • 1772 Posts

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]That is a good question right there. In the case of God I would say that he has proven his love for us by sending his son Jesus Christ to atone for our sins and save us from death. It should also be noted that this is not divine child abuse because Jesus willingly laid down His life for His sheep (His covanent people)Zeviander
Have you ever actually stepped back and read your evangelism to yourself objectively? Jesus is a mostly ahistorical figure, who, through centuries of rewrites and translations has been made out to be far more than what he likely was as a real person. Lol @ sheep. Yep, that's precisely the case. Also, proving Jesus exists does not by default prove God exists. That would require a whole other, far more extravagant set of evidence.

Yes I have read what I have said and would not change one word in it, because it is objectively true. Truth by it's very meaning must be objective, for if it was only subjective it would only be opinion. All real objective truth comes from God, not from us.

The evidence that proves God exists through Jesus is given by Jesus Himself. He performed countless miracles and fulfilled every one of the 400+ prophecies of the old testament. There is much more evidence that can be explored as well.

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#221 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]That is a good question right there. In the case of God I would say that he has proven his love for us by sending his son Jesus Christ to atone for our sins and save us from death. It should also be noted that this is not divine child abuse because Jesus willingly laid down His life for His sheep (His covanent people)GameGuy642003

Have you ever actually stepped back and read your evangelism to yourself objectively? Jesus is a mostly ahistorical figure, who, through centuries of rewrites and translations has been made out to be far more than what he likely was as a real person. Lol @ sheep. Yep, that's precisely the case. Also, proving Jesus exists does not by default prove God exists. That would require a whole other, far more extravagant set of evidence.

Yes I have read what I have said and would not change one word in it, because it is objectively true. Truth by it's very meaning must be objective, for if it was only subjective it would only be opinion. All real objective truth comes from God, not from us.

The evidence that proves God exists through Jesus is given by Jesus Himself. He performed countless miracles and fulfilled every one of the 400+ prophecies of the old testament. There is much more evidence that can be explored as well.

If there was a lick of truth in anything you said you'd have nobel prizes out the ass.

086-To-argue-with-a-person-who-has-renou

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#222 psymon100
Member since 2012 • 6835 Posts

[QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]That is a good question right there. In the case of God I would say that he has proven his love for us by sending his son Jesus Christ to atone for our sins and save us from death. It should also be noted that this is not divine child abuse because Jesus willingly laid down His life for His sheep (His covanent people)GameGuy642003

Have you ever actually stepped back and read your evangelism to yourself objectively? Jesus is a mostly ahistorical figure, who, through centuries of rewrites and translations has been made out to be far more than what he likely was as a real person. Lol @ sheep. Yep, that's precisely the case. Also, proving Jesus exists does not by default prove God exists. That would require a whole other, far more extravagant set of evidence.

Yes I have read what I have said and would not change one word in it, because it is objectively true. Truth by it's very meaning must be objective, for if it was only subjective it would only be opinion. All real objective truth comes from God, not from us.

The evidence that proves God exists through Jesus is given by Jesus Himself. He performed countless miracles and fulfilled every one of the 400+ prophecies of the old testament. There is much more evidence that can be explored as well.

Do you mean like the loaves and the fishes thing?

I would love to discuss this 'much more evidence'.

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#223 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

[QUOTE="Zeviander"] Have you ever actually stepped back and read your evangelism to yourself objectively? Jesus is a mostly ahistorical figure, who, through centuries of rewrites and translations has been made out to be far more than what he likely was as a real person. Lol @ sheep. Yep, that's precisely the case. Also, proving Jesus exists does not by default prove God exists. That would require a whole other, far more extravagant set of evidence.psymon100

Yes I have read what I have said and would not change one word in it, because it is objectively true. Truth by it's very meaning must be objective, for if it was only subjective it would only be opinion. All real objective truth comes from God, not from us.

The evidence that proves God exists through Jesus is given by Jesus Himself. He performed countless miracles and fulfilled every one of the 400+ prophecies of the old testament. There is much more evidence that can be explored as well.

Do you mean like the loaves and the fishes thing?

I would love to discuss this 'much more evidence'.

his standard of evidence must be at rock bottom

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#224 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]That is a good question right there. In the case of God I would say that he has proven his love for us by sending his son Jesus Christ to atone for our sins and save us from death. It should also be noted that this is not divine child abuse because Jesus willingly laid down His life for His sheep (His covanent people)GameGuy642003

Have you ever actually stepped back and read your evangelism to yourself objectively? Jesus is a mostly ahistorical figure, who, through centuries of rewrites and translations has been made out to be far more than what he likely was as a real person. Lol @ sheep. Yep, that's precisely the case. Also, proving Jesus exists does not by default prove God exists. That would require a whole other, far more extravagant set of evidence.

Yes I have read what I have said and would not change one word in it, because it is objectively true. Truth by it's very meaning must be objective, for if it was only subjective it would only be opinion. All real objective truth comes from God, not from us.

The evidence that proves God exists through Jesus is given by Jesus Himself. He performed countless miracles and fulfilled every one of the 400+ prophecies of the old testament. There is much more evidence that can be explored as well.

If all "real" truths came from God they would still be subjective - see: the Euthyphro dilemma

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#225 psymon100
Member since 2012 • 6835 Posts

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

Yes I have read what I have said and would not change one word in it, because it is objectively true. Truth by it's very meaning must be objective, for if it was only subjective it would only be opinion. All real objective truth comes from God, not from us.

The evidence that proves God exists through Jesus is given by Jesus Himself. He performed countless miracles and fulfilled every one of the 400+ prophecies of the old testament. There is much more evidence that can be explored as well.

wis3boi

Do you mean like the loaves and the fishes thing?

I would love to discuss this 'much more evidence'.

his standard of evidence must be at rock bottom

I'm always interested to see what's considered evidence.

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deactivated-59913425220eb

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#226 deactivated-59913425220eb
Member since 2002 • 1772 Posts

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

Do you mean like the loaves and the fishes thing?

I would love to discuss this 'much more evidence'.

psymon100

his standard of evidence must be at rock bottom

I'm always interested to see what's considered evidence.

Well to discuss this massive topic would require much more than a post to explain. I can point you to a couple of books that have been really helpful for me. These books are written by extremely knowledgeable scholars.

Understanding Scripture: An Overview of the Bible's Origin, Reliability, and Meaning by Wayne Grudem, C. John Collins, Thomas R. Schreiner, J.I. Packer, John Piper, and many others... All of the authors are well noted scholars and theologians who have dedicated their lives to undesrstanding The Bible.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Scripture-Overview-Reliability-Meaning/dp/1433529998/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358891989&sr=1-1&keywords=scripture+john+piper

Knowing Scripture by R.C. Sproul

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Scripture-R-C-Sproul/dp/083083723X/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358892391&sr=1-8&keywords=R.C.+Sproul

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#227 deactivated-5b19214ec908b
Member since 2007 • 25072 Posts

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

his standard of evidence must be at rock bottom

GameGuy642003

I'm always interested to see what's considered evidence.

Well to discuss this massive topic would require much more than a post to explain. I can point you to a couple of books that have been really helpful for me. These books are written by extremely knowledgeable scholars.

Understanding Scripture: An Overview of the Bible's Origin, Reliability, and Meaning by Wayne Grudem, C. John Collins, Thomas R. Schreiner, J.I. Packer, John Piper, and many others... All of the authors are well noted scholars and theologians who have dedicated their lives to undesrstanding The Bible.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Scripture-Overview-Reliability-Meaning/dp/1433529998/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358891989&sr=1-1&keywords=scripture+john+piper

Knowing Scripture by R.C. Sproul

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Scripture-R-C-Sproul/dp/083083723X/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358892391&sr=1-8&keywords=R.C.+Sproul

Do any of those books give evidence of the events mentioned in the bible actually happening?

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psymon100

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#228 psymon100
Member since 2012 • 6835 Posts

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

his standard of evidence must be at rock bottom

GameGuy642003

I'm always interested to see what's considered evidence.

Well to discuss this massive topic would require much more than a post to explain. I can point you to a couple of books that have been really helpful for me. These books are written by extremely knowledgeable scholars.

Understanding Scripture: An Overview of the Bible's Origin, Reliability, and Meaning by Wayne Grudem, C. John Collins, Thomas R. Schreiner, J.I. Packer, John Piper, and many others... All of the authors are well noted scholars and theologians who have dedicated their lives to undesrstanding The Bible.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Scripture-Overview-Reliability-Meaning/dp/1433529998/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358891989&sr=1-1&keywords=scripture+john+piper

Knowing Scripture by R.C. Sproul

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Scripture-R-C-Sproul/dp/083083723X/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358892391&sr=1-8&keywords=R.C.+Sproul

I could point to books by notable scholars also, such as 'Why Evolution is true', 'The God Delusion', etc.

What's the most compelling evidence for God?

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deactivated-59913425220eb

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#229 deactivated-59913425220eb
Member since 2002 • 1772 Posts

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

I'm always interested to see what's considered evidence.

toast_burner

Well to discuss this massive topic would require much more than a post to explain. I can point you to a couple of books that have been really helpful for me. These books are written by extremely knowledgeable scholars.

Understanding Scripture: An Overview of the Bible's Origin, Reliability, and Meaning by Wayne Grudem, C. John Collins, Thomas R. Schreiner, J.I. Packer, John Piper, and many others... All of the authors are well noted scholars and theologians who have dedicated their lives to undesrstanding The Bible.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Scripture-Overview-Reliability-Meaning/dp/1433529998/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358891989&sr=1-1&keywords=scripture+john+piper

Knowing Scripture by R.C. Sproul

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Scripture-R-C-Sproul/dp/083083723X/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358892391&sr=1-8&keywords=R.C.+Sproul

Do any of those books give evidence of the events mentioned in the bible actually happening?

I do believe that is one focus of the books among other topics. They do discuss the various translations that have been founded including the recent "dead Sea Scrolls" and "Gospels of Thomas and Barnabus". I don't have the books in front of me so I can't be 100% sure or else I would double check on the main topics discussed. But I would recommend checking them out.
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wis3boi

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#230 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

I'm always interested to see what's considered evidence.

toast_burner

Well to discuss this massive topic would require much more than a post to explain. I can point you to a couple of books that have been really helpful for me. These books are written by extremely knowledgeable scholars.

Understanding Scripture: An Overview of the Bible's Origin, Reliability, and Meaning by Wayne Grudem, C. John Collins, Thomas R. Schreiner, J.I. Packer, John Piper, and many others... All of the authors are well noted scholars and theologians who have dedicated their lives to undesrstanding The Bible.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Scripture-Overview-Reliability-Meaning/dp/1433529998/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358891989&sr=1-1&keywords=scripture+john+piper

Knowing Scripture by R.C. Sproul

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Scripture-R-C-Sproul/dp/083083723X/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358892391&sr=1-8&keywords=R.C.+Sproul

Do any of those books give evidence of the events mentioned in the bible actually happening?

none of it's authors are contemporary and it's all just a huge game of telephone :P

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#231 deactivated-59913425220eb
Member since 2002 • 1772 Posts

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

I'm always interested to see what's considered evidence.

psymon100

Well to discuss this massive topic would require much more than a post to explain. I can point you to a couple of books that have been really helpful for me. These books are written by extremely knowledgeable scholars.

Understanding Scripture: An Overview of the Bible's Origin, Reliability, and Meaning by Wayne Grudem, C. John Collins, Thomas R. Schreiner, J.I. Packer, John Piper, and many others... All of the authors are well noted scholars and theologians who have dedicated their lives to undesrstanding The Bible.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Scripture-Overview-Reliability-Meaning/dp/1433529998/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358891989&sr=1-1&keywords=scripture+john+piper

Knowing Scripture by R.C. Sproul

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Scripture-R-C-Sproul/dp/083083723X/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358892391&sr=1-8&keywords=R.C.+Sproul

I could point to books by notable scholars also, such as 'Why Evolution is true', 'The God Delusion', etc.

What's the most compelling evidence for God?

Well my biblical answer would be that the best evidence is Jesus Christ Himself as known in the scriptures. As well as the testimonies of witnesses throughout the centuries. A person's testimony about their conversion as well as their life change. This I believe is the best proof of God. Perhaps Mindstorm can elaborate, he can probably provide a much better explanation than I.

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wis3boi

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#232 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

Well to discuss this massive topic would require much more than a post to explain. I can point you to a couple of books that have been really helpful for me. These books are written by extremely knowledgeable scholars.

Understanding Scripture: An Overview of the Bible's Origin, Reliability, and Meaning by Wayne Grudem, C. John Collins, Thomas R. Schreiner, J.I. Packer, John Piper, and many others... All of the authors are well noted scholars and theologians who have dedicated their lives to undesrstanding The Bible.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Scripture-Overview-Reliability-Meaning/dp/1433529998/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358891989&sr=1-1&keywords=scripture+john+piper

Knowing Scripture by R.C. Sproul

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Scripture-R-C-Sproul/dp/083083723X/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358892391&sr=1-8&keywords=R.C.+Sproul

GameGuy642003

I could point to books by notable scholars also, such as 'Why Evolution is true', 'The God Delusion', etc.

What's the most compelling evidence for God?

Well my biblical answer would be that the best evidence is Jesus Christ Himself as known in the scriptures. As well as the testimonies of witnesses throughout the centuries. A person's testimony about their conversion as well as their life change. This I believe is the best proof of God. Perhaps Mindstorm can elaborate, he can probably provide a much better explanation than I.

You still have not given one substatial piece of evidence as to why anyone would believe should believe such claims

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deactivated-5b19214ec908b

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#233 deactivated-5b19214ec908b
Member since 2007 • 25072 Posts

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

Well to discuss this massive topic would require much more than a post to explain. I can point you to a couple of books that have been really helpful for me. These books are written by extremely knowledgeable scholars.

Understanding Scripture: An Overview of the Bible's Origin, Reliability, and Meaning by Wayne Grudem, C. John Collins, Thomas R. Schreiner, J.I. Packer, John Piper, and many others... All of the authors are well noted scholars and theologians who have dedicated their lives to undesrstanding The Bible.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Scripture-Overview-Reliability-Meaning/dp/1433529998/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358891989&sr=1-1&keywords=scripture+john+piper

Knowing Scripture by R.C. Sproul

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Scripture-R-C-Sproul/dp/083083723X/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358892391&sr=1-8&keywords=R.C.+Sproul

GameGuy642003

I could point to books by notable scholars also, such as 'Why Evolution is true', 'The God Delusion', etc.

What's the most compelling evidence for God?

Well my biblical answer would be that the best evidence is Jesus Christ Himself as known in the scriptures. As well as the testimonies of witnesses throughout the centuries. A person's testimony about their conversion as well as their life change. This I believe is the best proof of God. Perhaps Mindstorm can elaborate, he can probably provide a much better explanation than I.

The scriptures are not evidence. Saying they are is like saying Harry Potter is evidence of magic.

Testimonies alone don't mean much, I could find people claiming they were abducted by aliens, that doesn't mean an invasion is going to happen anytime soon.

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Ace6301

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#234 Ace6301
Member since 2005 • 21389 Posts

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

Well to discuss this massive topic would require much more than a post to explain. I can point you to a couple of books that have been really helpful for me. These books are written by extremely knowledgeable scholars.

Understanding Scripture: An Overview of the Bible's Origin, Reliability, and Meaning by Wayne Grudem, C. John Collins, Thomas R. Schreiner, J.I. Packer, John Piper, and many others... All of the authors are well noted scholars and theologians who have dedicated their lives to undesrstanding The Bible.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Scripture-Overview-Reliability-Meaning/dp/1433529998/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358891989&sr=1-1&keywords=scripture+john+piper

Knowing Scripture by R.C. Sproul

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Scripture-R-C-Sproul/dp/083083723X/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358892391&sr=1-8&keywords=R.C.+Sproul

GameGuy642003

I could point to books by notable scholars also, such as 'Why Evolution is true', 'The God Delusion', etc.

What's the most compelling evidence for God?

Well my biblical answer would be that the best evidence is Jesus Christ Himself as known in the scriptures. As well as the testimonies of witnesses throughout the centuries. A person's testimony about their conversion as well as their life change. This I believe is the best proof of God. Perhaps Mindstorm can elaborate, he can probably provide a much better explanation than I.

What about all the people of different religions who have similar stories of conversion and the like?
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deactivated-59913425220eb

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#235 deactivated-59913425220eb
Member since 2002 • 1772 Posts

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

I could point to books by notable scholars also, such as 'Why Evolution is true', 'The God Delusion', etc.

What's the most compelling evidence for God?

toast_burner

Well my biblical answer would be that the best evidence is Jesus Christ Himself as known in the scriptures. As well as the testimonies of witnesses throughout the centuries. A person's testimony about their conversion as well as their life change. This I believe is the best proof of God. Perhaps Mindstorm can elaborate, he can probably provide a much better explanation than I.

The scriptures are not evidence. Saying they are is like saying Harry Potter is evidence of magic.

Testimonies alone don't mean much, I could find people claiming they were abducted by aliens, that doesn't mean an invasion is going to happen anytime soon.

Ya I get what your saying. That is why I recommended those books, check em out they might be helpful.
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MrPraline

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#236 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts
Not sure why we are arguing about "proof" of God. There is no proof. The whole concept of faith, and by extension the premise of the religion, depends on it.
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deactivated-59913425220eb

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#237 deactivated-59913425220eb
Member since 2002 • 1772 Posts

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

I could point to books by notable scholars also, such as 'Why Evolution is true', 'The God Delusion', etc.

What's the most compelling evidence for God?

Ace6301

Well my biblical answer would be that the best evidence is Jesus Christ Himself as known in the scriptures. As well as the testimonies of witnesses throughout the centuries. A person's testimony about their conversion as well as their life change. This I believe is the best proof of God. Perhaps Mindstorm can elaborate, he can probably provide a much better explanation than I.

What about all the people of different religions who have similar stories of conversion and the like?

Hmmm similiar? Its impossible for me to know who is being discussed since we haven't really talked about any one person's actual testimony. I'm sure that conversion stories in other religions are much different then when a person is converted by the Holy Spirit. It wouldn't really be helpful to elaborate further in fear of getting into a mess of misunderstanding.

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psymon100

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#238 psymon100
Member since 2012 • 6835 Posts

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

Well to discuss this massive topic would require much more than a post to explain. I can point you to a couple of books that have been really helpful for me. These books are written by extremely knowledgeable scholars.

Understanding Scripture: An Overview of the Bible's Origin, Reliability, and Meaning by Wayne Grudem, C. John Collins, Thomas R. Schreiner, J.I. Packer, John Piper, and many others... All of the authors are well noted scholars and theologians who have dedicated their lives to undesrstanding The Bible.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Scripture-Overview-Reliability-Meaning/dp/1433529998/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358891989&sr=1-1&keywords=scripture+john+piper

Knowing Scripture by R.C. Sproul

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Scripture-R-C-Sproul/dp/083083723X/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358892391&sr=1-8&keywords=R.C.+Sproul

GameGuy642003

I could point to books by notable scholars also, such as 'Why Evolution is true', 'The God Delusion', etc.

What's the most compelling evidence for God?

Well my biblical answer would be that the best evidence is Jesus Christ Himself as known in the scriptures. As well as the testimonies of witnesses throughout the centuries. A person's testimony about their conversion as well as their life change. This I believe is the best proof of God. Perhaps Mindstorm can elaborate, he can probably provide a much better explanation than I.

Well, people can be convicted today sometimes with eyewitness testimony, sometimes later such testimony turns out to be a misidentification and the conviction overturned. So, I am unsure I should be convinced by witness testimony.

I have heard anecdotes on both sides, finding religion, losing religion - so I'm unsure this is compelling evidence.

Often I wonder the question 'what would a proof of God look like?'

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MrPraline

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#239 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

I could point to books by notable scholars also, such as 'Why Evolution is true', 'The God Delusion', etc.

What's the most compelling evidence for God?

psymon100

Well my biblical answer would be that the best evidence is Jesus Christ Himself as known in the scriptures. As well as the testimonies of witnesses throughout the centuries. A person's testimony about their conversion as well as their life change. This I believe is the best proof of God. Perhaps Mindstorm can elaborate, he can probably provide a much better explanation than I.

Well, people can be convicted today sometimes with eyewitness testimony, sometimes later such testimony turns out to be a misidentification and the conviction overturned. So, I am unsure I should be convinced by witness testimony.

I have heard anecdotes on both sides, finding religion, losing religion - so I'm unsure this is compelling evidence.

Often I wonder the question 'what would a proof of God look like?'

There's no proof. If God isn't real, there wouldn't be proof. Is God is real, he wouldn't allow proof to exist. Faith and all that.
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#240 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]Yes I have read what I have said and would not change one word in it, because it is objectively true. Truth by it's very meaning must be objective, for if it was only subjective it would only be opinion. All real objective truth comes from God, not from us. The evidence that proves God exists through Jesus is given by Jesus Himself. He performed countless miracles and fulfilled every one of the 400+ prophecies of the old testament. There is much more evidence that can be explored as well.

:| Good gourd.
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Ace6301

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#241 Ace6301
Member since 2005 • 21389 Posts

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="GameGuy642003"] Well my biblical answer would be that the best evidence is Jesus Christ Himself as known in the scriptures. As well as the testimonies of witnesses throughout the centuries. A person's testimony about their conversion as well as their life change. This I believe is the best proof of God. Perhaps Mindstorm can elaborate, he can probably provide a much better explanation than I.

GameGuy642003

What about all the people of different religions who have similar stories of conversion and the like?

Hmmm similiar? Its impossible for me to know who is being discussed since we haven't really talked about any one person's actual testimony. I'm sure that conversion stories in other religions are much different then when a person is converted by the Holy Spirit. It wouldn't really be helpful to elaborate further in fear of getting into a mess of misunderstanding.

So you're pretty much saying those can't be the same because they aren't converting to my religion.
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deactivated-59913425220eb

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#242 deactivated-59913425220eb
Member since 2002 • 1772 Posts

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

I could point to books by notable scholars also, such as 'Why Evolution is true', 'The God Delusion', etc.

What's the most compelling evidence for God?

psymon100

Well my biblical answer would be that the best evidence is Jesus Christ Himself as known in the scriptures. As well as the testimonies of witnesses throughout the centuries. A person's testimony about their conversion as well as their life change. This I believe is the best proof of God. Perhaps Mindstorm can elaborate, he can probably provide a much better explanation than I.

Well, people can be convicted today sometimes with eyewitness testimony, sometimes later such testimony turns out to be a misidentification and the conviction overturned. So, I am unsure I should be convinced by witness testimony.

I have heard anecdotes on both sides, finding religion, losing religion - so I'm unsure this is compelling evidence.

Often I wonder the question 'what would a proof of God look like?'

Let me go to scripture and see what God has to say about this.

ROMANS 1:19-23

19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

The problem is this. You know God exists, the proof is everywhere. You don't need more head knowledge, what is needed is a heart change, the problem is with your heart. The thing is you don't want to believe, you deny the evidence that God has put in front of you. This section of scripture is pointed at people who have never even heard of the Bible or Jesus Christ, but since you have heard of Jesus and the Bible you are really without excuse. Verse 20 is speaking about God's attributes as it is seen in nature, the trees, birds, mountians, clouds, all of creation including his prize creation... humans.

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GreySeal9

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#243 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

Not sure why we are arguing about "proof" of God. There is no proof. The whole concept of faith, and by extension the premise of the religion, depends on it.MrPraline

This is all that really needs to be said.

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Ace6301

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#244 Ace6301
Member since 2005 • 21389 Posts

[QUOTE="MrPraline"]Not sure why we are arguing about "proof" of God. There is no proof. The whole concept of faith, and by extension the premise of the religion, depends on it.GreySeal9

This is all that really needs to be said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX6XMIldkRU
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wis3boi

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#245 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]Yes I have read what I have said and would not change one word in it, because it is objectively true. Truth by it's very meaning must be objective, for if it was only subjective it would only be opinion. All real objective truth comes from God, not from us. The evidence that proves God exists through Jesus is given by Jesus Himself. He performed countless miracles and fulfilled every one of the 400+ prophecies of the old testament. There is much more evidence that can be explored as well.Zeviander
:| Good gourd.

Yup.

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psymon100

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#246 psymon100
Member since 2012 • 6835 Posts

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"] Well my biblical answer would be that the best evidence is Jesus Christ Himself as known in the scriptures. As well as the testimonies of witnesses throughout the centuries. A person's testimony about their conversion as well as their life change. This I believe is the best proof of God. Perhaps Mindstorm can elaborate, he can probably provide a much better explanation than I.

GameGuy642003

Well, people can be convicted today sometimes with eyewitness testimony, sometimes later such testimony turns out to be a misidentification and the conviction overturned. So, I am unsure I should be convinced by witness testimony.

I have heard anecdotes on both sides, finding religion, losing religion - so I'm unsure this is compelling evidence.

Often I wonder the question 'what would a proof of God look like?'

Let me go to scripture and see what God has to say about this.

ROMANS 1:19-23

19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

The problem is this. You know God exists, the proof is everywhere. You don't need more head knowledge, what is needed is a heart change, the problem is with your heart. The thing is you don't want to believe, you deny the evidence that God has put in front of you. This section of scripture is pointed at people who have never even heard of the Bible or Jesus Christ, but since you have heard of Jesus and the Bible you are really without excuse. Verse 20 is speaking about God's attributes as it is seen in nature, the trees, birds, mountians, clouds, all of creation including his prize creation... humans.

I see, "the fool hath said in his heart there is no god". This is a cop-out. Surely it is no surprise that the bible self-reinforces?

Quite honestly I don't know if God exists. In over ~23 years of wondering about this problem and keeping my eyes and ears open I still haven't seen any compelling evidence for God. I can get naturalistic explanations for very close to everything. Wiseboy has mentioned the 'god of the gaps' argument, and that's fine if someone wants to replace unknowns with God, I choose to leave them as unknowns.

A heart change? My heart is just a pump which moves a transport medium (blood) about my circulatory system.

I am not interested in excuses. I am interested in reasons. What is the reason for believing in any God/s? I don't need excuses to not believe in the Judeo-Christian God the same as how I don't need excuses to not believe in Zeus, Thor, or Hobbits. If there were sufficient evidence for God then I'd change my views to make them congruent with reality. Is there anything in the scripture with which you can make a prediction about reality?

You talk about God's attributes in nature, the trees, birds, mountains, clouds, all of creation including humans. Well, we have explanations for a great many things in nature, plant biology including photosynthesis, avian biology (Bats are birds according to the bible), plate tectonics and volcanoes etc, weather systems, and a massive body of evidence for human evolution.

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wis3boi

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#247 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

Well, people can be convicted today sometimes with eyewitness testimony, sometimes later such testimony turns out to be a misidentification and the conviction overturned. So, I am unsure I should be convinced by witness testimony.

I have heard anecdotes on both sides, finding religion, losing religion - so I'm unsure this is compelling evidence.

Often I wonder the question 'what would a proof of God look like?'

psymon100

Let me go to scripture and see what God has to say about this.

ROMANS 1:19-23

19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

The problem is this. You know God exists, the proof is everywhere. You don't need more head knowledge, what is needed is a heart change, the problem is with your heart. The thing is you don't want to believe, you deny the evidence that God has put in front of you. This section of scripture is pointed at people who have never even heard of the Bible or Jesus Christ, but since you have heard of Jesus and the Bible you are really without excuse. Verse 20 is speaking about God's attributes as it is seen in nature, the trees, birds, mountians, clouds, all of creation including his prize creation... humans.

I see, "the fool hath said in his heart there is no god". This is a cop-out. Surely it is no surprise that the bible self-reinforces?

Quite honestly I don't know if God exists. In over ~23 years of wondering about this problem and keeping my eyes and ears open I still haven't seen any compelling evidence for God. I can get naturalistic explanations for very close to everything. Wiseboy has mentioned the 'god of the gaps' argument, and that's fine if someone wants to replace unknowns with God, I choose to leave them as unknowns.

A heart change? My heart is just a pump which moves a transport medium (blood) about my circulatory system.

I am not interested in excuses. I am interested in reasons. What is the reason for believing in any God/s? I don't need excuses to not believe in the Judeo-Christian God the same as how I don't need excuses to not believe in Zeus, Thor, or Hobbits. If there were sufficient evidence for God then I'd change my views to make them congruent with reality. Is there anything in the scripture with which you can make a prediction about reality?

You talk about God's attributes in nature, the trees, birds, mountains, clouds, all of creation including humans. Well, we have explanations for a great many things in nature, plant biology including photosynthesis, avian biology (Bats are birds according to the bible), plate tectonics and volcanoes etc, weather systems, and a massive body of evidence for human evolution.

You. I like you. You sound like Matt Dillahunty

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#248 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="psymon100"]

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"] Well my biblical answer would be that the best evidence is Jesus Christ Himself as known in the scriptures. As well as the testimonies of witnesses throughout the centuries. A person's testimony about their conversion as well as their life change. This I believe is the best proof of God. Perhaps Mindstorm can elaborate, he can probably provide a much better explanation than I.

GameGuy642003

Well, people can be convicted today sometimes with eyewitness testimony, sometimes later such testimony turns out to be a misidentification and the conviction overturned. So, I am unsure I should be convinced by witness testimony.

I have heard anecdotes on both sides, finding religion, losing religion - so I'm unsure this is compelling evidence.

Often I wonder the question 'what would a proof of God look like?'

Let me go to scripture and see what God has to say about this.

ROMANS 1:19-23

19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

The problem is this. You know God exists, the proof is everywhere. You don't need more head knowledge, what is needed is a heart change, the problem is with your heart. The thing is you don't want to believe, you deny the evidence that God has put in front of you. This section of scripture is pointed at people who have never even heard of the Bible or Jesus Christ, but since you have heard of Jesus and the Bible you are really without excuse. Verse 20 is speaking about God's attributes as it is seen in nature, the trees, birds, mountians, clouds, all of creation including his prize creation... humans.

This is the kind of obnoxious arrogance that turns many people away from religion.

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Blood-Scribe

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#249 Blood-Scribe
Member since 2007 • 6465 Posts

It's also a hilariously bad rhetorical device that'll only backfire given the skeptical audience it's meant to address.

Telling a non-theist that they already know that God exists and are just denying it is a really bad way to get your point across.

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#250 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

It's also a hilariously bad rhetorical device that'll only backfire given the skeptical audience it's meant to address.

Telling a non-theist that they already know that God exists and are just denying it is a really bad way to get your point across.

Blood-Scribe

He seems delusional enough to think it's an effective strategy tho.