So the situation in Israel...

Considering the death toll so far and Israel's history I wouldn't make this unprovable blanket statement. I agree they should defend themselves against this evil attack and Hamas is using human shields causing Israel to rack up massive casualties, but to say you know for a fact there aren't some zealous IDF members resulting in needless death is big doubt. Especially with the numbers so far. We know this from history,

U.N. reports say Israel targeted civilians in Gaza | Reuters

Israel is deliberately targeting civilians in Gaza | The Electronic Intifada

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't defend it self but I'm also not naive enough to say there aren't going to be a small number of asshats targeting civilians. It literally has been proven to happen.

Hamas would be proud of you. They want this. Easy terrorist creation.

I'm mostly for and against both sides depending on the specific battle, war, or attack. There are obvious situations where both side acted in deranged malice and vengeance over the last 40 years. Just a back and forth of who was clearly in the wrong. In this instance I'm leaning more towards pro-Israel as the Hamas attack was beyond evil. However, I'm able to note that at a certain point of innocent civilian casualties things start to get fishy. We know this has happened from several reports from past events.

Don't forget HAMAS killed civilians to start this.

I'm really hating the "neutrality chooses the side of the oppressors" talking point in regards to THIS topic. Especially when THIS happened.

And with this logic in mind, should we LET Russia have Ukraine given Putin supported the attack by Hamas and Zelensky didn't?

History lesson about Hamas and Israel:

Hamas is a Frankenstein monster created by Israel. They supported and propped up Hamas during the First Intifada (1987-1993) in order to undermine the secular Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). After the PLO and Israel agreed to a two-state solution with the Oslo Accords in 1993, the Oslo Accords were sabotaged by Netanyahu in the late '90s. Netanyahu backstabbed the PLO and refused to give them a Palestinian state.

The PLO's failure in securing a Palestinian state is what led to the rise of Hamas. Many of the young fighters who joined Hamas were Palestinian children whose families were massacred by Israelis. Many of these Hamas fighters want revenge against the Israelis for murdering their families. So when Hamas fighters retaliate with revenge attacks against Israelis, Israel retaliates with revenge attacks disproportionately killing far more Palestinians. Then the cycle of vengeance repeats itself all over again. That's how we've got to the point where we're at today.

Bottom line: Hamas and Israel are both evil. The difference is that Hamas is a Frankenstein monster created by Israel, which makes Israel the greater evil, as they are responsible for both their own atrocities as well as for creating the Frankenstein monster they're now trying to destroy.

@Jag85: Oh you're the one who thinks Israel created Hamas. NVM, not going to argue crazy talking points with you.

Let's be clear - that does not give Israel the right to target civilians themselves. I'm not saying they have, but people in this thread are arguing they should.

This is heartening back to the post 9/11 days (yes, I'm old) when people would argue that "the Middle East should be bombed to glass." Let's not lower ourselves to positions that are simply..... evil. People are arguing that if Hamas leadership holes up in hospitals and schools, Israel should bomb hospitals and schools. Let's not mince words, these are terrible actions proposed by horrible people.

True which is why I'm leaning more towards pro-Israel in this specific battle.

Completely agree with this! Never right to target civilians specifically. And it's always right to do everything in ones power to minimize civilian casualties. Thankfully I think the Israeli leadership is a bit more responsible than those drive-by-bloodthirsty-internet-posters who show little regard for human life. Some use a horrible de-humanizing language. Just because someone is poor does not in any way lower their value as a human being!

Yes but then you have those absolving Hamas as well.

@mattbbpl: I haven’t seen anyone advocate for targeting civilians. Maybe you’re confusing that with the position that Israel must destroy Hamas regardless of civilians, some of which everyone knows are going to die and have accepted as such. Israel can’t become so worried about everyone else that its goals are paralyzed. Every death in this conflict is 100% on Hamas.

@LJS9502_basic: Yeah, Hamas are not good guys, here.

Yes, people advocating for targeting populated hospitals and schools if Hamas hides in them are terrible people advocating horrible things.

@mattbbpl: That’s on Hamas, as is every death in this war. Did anyone expect them to do otherwise? Victim blaming Israel is a disgusting thing to do.

@tjandmia: Awesome, you are literally advocating for war crimes. At least I know where you and Sargent stand, JFC.

All these perspectives, both from posters on here and from talks I've had with people, have made me realize there is a serious flaw in our general thought process: we feel compelled to choose a side.

In this specific situation, we feel forced to choose between two villains: barbaric Hamas, and fascist Israel. Please note I am not referring to the people of Palestine as barbaric nor the people of Israel as fascist. But the fact is their governments or organizations are terrible.

I mean, is there a third option? Can we condemn both at the same time without sounding indecisive? Or hypocritical? Can we seek to help both sides while being impartial?

Is there an ultimate compromise we can reach where neither side is happy, but neither side is unhappy?

It's a tough situation because Israel is guilty as hell of being a far-right regime for decades that has systemically oppressed and murdered thousands of Palestinians and have made little attempt at peace; while Hamas haphazardly just spends the lives of the poor, uneducated, and innocent to further an agenda that doesn't really represent the people of that region.

I don't know what the solution here is. What I do know is both sides are pure shit and we can't trust them to resolve it on their own.

Which leads to another issue: at what point, and to what extent, does the world outside that region get involved? Sometimes you need to save people from themselves.

@mrbojangles25: I don't think there's a solution sadly. Not a good one. A meteorite hitting the region, hard resetting the whole thing is the most optimistic final I can think of.

I'm telling you, man, a big hole in that part of the world would do us all some good.

Yeah, I have no problem with Jews but Zionists are something else.

Also, does any of this sound familiar?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

Yup! When the mentality of "neutrality is choosing the side of the oppressors" is running rampant. Pete Davidson of SNL expressed sympathy for the affected children on both side of the conflict, and he's getting accused by some OF that mentality. Nevermind, the fact that his dad was among those killed by al-Qaeda on 9/11...

Yet Sesame Street makes a similar message. They get praise.

My stance on this are with Sesame Street and Pete Davidson.

Holy f... This didn't happen in Palestine or Israel, but happened in America:

Illinois man kills six-year-old Muslim boy and stabs mother in hate crime

Joseph Czuba, 71, was charged with murder and hate crime for stabbing his tenants over a dozen times in Plainfield, Illinois

A 71-year-old man in Plainfield, Illinois, has been charged with murder and a hate crime after stabbing a child and his mother because they were Muslims in an attack that killed a six-year-old boy and left the adult seriously wounded.

In a statement posted to the Will county sheriff’s office social media page, law enforcement responded to an emergency call made by a 32-year-old woman who alleged her landlord had attacked her with a knife.

The Will county sheriff’s office said: “Detectives were able to determine that both victims in this brutal attack were targeted by the suspect due to them being Muslim and the ongoing Middle Eastern conflict involving Hamas and the Israelis.”

On the scene, officers found the 71-year-old suspect sitting upright on the ground near the home’s driveway and inside found two stabbing victims, a 32-year-old woman and 6-year-old boy who each suffered over a dozen stab wounds to their chest, torso and arms.

The suspect was identified as 71-year-old Joseph M Czuba and police said he was the property’s landlord.

“Joseph Czuba did not make any statements to detectives regarding his involvement in this heinous attack. Despite the suspect not providing a statement to detectives, personnel were able to gather enough information through interviews and evidence to formally charge Joseph Czuba with numerous criminal offenses,” said the Will county sheriff office in a statement.

Czuba was charged with murder, two counts of hate crimes and other offenses.

The child was transported to a local hospital where he was pronounced deceased, and the woman is hospitalized in serious condition, but expected to survive.

CAIR International, the largest Muslim civil rights organization in the US, said in a statement on social media: “We are shocked and disturbed to learn that a landlord in Chicago expressing anti-Muslim and anti-Palestinian views broke into a Muslim family’s apartment and attacked them with a knife, injuring the mother and killing her 6-year-old son, Wadea Al-Fayoume.”

RIP Wadea. The sick f*** who killed him deserves to get locked away for life in prison (and get tortured there by other prisoners).

There are also reports of other Arabs, Jews and Muslims being targeted in hate crimes. There are psychopaths watching the news and going out to attack random Arabs, Jews or Muslims over a conflict happening half way across the world. This is madness!

@Jag85: Important to keep context and think rational in situations like this.

While obviously related/inspired by the conflict, these are individuals acting on their own.

Last thing we need to do is spiral out of control into despair and paranoia and start thinking that Hamas and/or Israeli secret services are killing people here.

They're not. These are just nutjobs.

Also not to sound apathetic but do you know how many children are murdered every day? Every hour? Yes this is tragic but don't let sensationalism suddenly make you rabid to something you were previously just accepted.

It looks like Iran is threatening to get involved if Israel follows through with their ground assault.

If Iran does attack Israel, that would likely be America's green light to act.

@mrbojangles25:

That's exactly my point. There are psychopathic nutjobs who are using this conflict as an excuse to go out and attack random Arabs or Jews in hate crimes. The killer has zero ties to the Middle East, but is just some old racist white Boomer. Hopefully, he gets locked away for life in prison and gets *censored* in prison (like what usually happens to child killers and pedos).

Do you live in the US? I'm aware of the high homicide rates down there. But here in the UK, the homicide rates aren't anywhere near as high as the US. If a 6 year-old child gets murdered in the UK, that would be shocking news. But maybe that's something you're more used to in the US.

We had an Israeli politician stabbed in China just before this.

@tjandmia: No one is targeting civilians. What you're writing is not reasonable.

shit like that is basically a weekend in chicago.

Serabi Medina, a 8-year-old Hispanic female died August 5, 2023 after being shot around 9:40 PM near the 3500 block of North Long Avenue in Portage Park.

Read more about this death

Laroyce Bolden, 3

April 22, 2023

Laroyce Bolden, a 3-year-old Black male died April 29, 2023 after being shot on April 22, 2023 around 3:40 PM near the 8800 block of South Euclid Avenue in Calumet Heights.

Read more about this death

A-Mara Hall, 1

February 19, 2023

A-Mara Hall, a 1-year-old Black female died February 19, 2023 after being shot around 10:40 PM near the I-57 near 111th Street in Morgan Park.

Read more about this death

William Smith, 13

February 19, 2023

William Smith, a 13-year-old Black male died February 19, 2023 after being shot around 10:40 PM near the I-57 near 111th Street in Morgan Park.

Read more about this death

Zury Cruz Sumba, 4

February 16, 2023

Zury Cruz Sumba, a 4-year-old White female died February 16, 2023 around 4:30 PM near the 4700 block of North Lawndale Avenue in Albany Park.

Read more about this death

Jarvis Watts, 9

January 1, 2023

Jarvis Watts, a 9-year-old Black male died January 1, 2023 after being shot around 6:30 PM near the 9400 block of South Wallace Street in Washington Heights.

Read more about this death

unfortunately..

Yes.. and i really don't want any of it smfh

I don't think mass slaughtering of men, women, elderly and children occur every day in industrialized free states -- much less when such acts are broadcasted to the world. I understand the apathy from progressives, however.

lol why progressives specifically? Because "The Squad" made a statement?

Why would the US go to war with Iran?

I can see the US backing Israel and providing support (like we have forever) but not entering open conflict.

Iran has been our "big bad" for some time now, for some stupid reason, but I don't see us really going to war with them.

My response was to statistical who's saying g Iran is threatening to attack Israel for invading on ground in Gaza.

It's a hypothetical of "if" Iran attacks Israel.

If they do, yeah the US will get involved.

Israel didn't even began their operation in Gaza and we already have 2500 Palestinian killed. Talk about apathy.

@sargentd: True, their terrorism is much more advanced.

Dayum! I've heard of "Chiraq" being like a warzone, but didn't know kids were being routinely murdered there... America needs to sort out its own backyard in Chicago before joining a war in the Middle East.

Iran wants the United States destroyed and will do anything to see that goal accomplished.

Hopefully that sloppy technological advantage doesn't create too many terrorists this time.

Yeah his statement made no sense. Why would he "understand" apathy from progressives? Are there studies showing this as normal? And isn't nearly all terrorism in his own country from right wing conservatives, including the deadliest attack on US Jews in history (Tree of Life)?

Not a topic one should really start making random partisan jabs on.

@robertos: Right wing terrorism would probably be labelled as "slow news day".

on that

agreed

Unfortunately Israel is one of our only Allies in the middle east, if Iran intervenes between Israel and Palestine and Iran decides to attack Israel, the US government will be involved.

I didn't make these rules, I'm just letting you know.

Yup, USA has a major gun violence epidemic that has to be looked into before we join another major war.

Agreed. Over 20,000 Americans are murdered in homicides ever year... America should be helping its own people first before getting involved in foreign conflicts.

it's pretty comical that the area in dispute is considered the "holy land" by millions and millions

if god exists it's up there shaking its head at all these fucking idiots.

@comp_atkins: Yep. At least on the Christian side it's completely counter to the gospels (the books chronicling Jesus's ministry).

I am unfamiliar with any squad statements, though my preconceived perception imagines they had the depth of a puddle, which may be giving far too much credit.

As for the mention of progressives, there are a decent chunk of progressives that have plainly made their voices heard on the issue on the interwebs, protesting on streets, and on college campuses (to no shock of anyone). Even outlets like the Atlantic are doing some reflections on the response, or this article from NBC News among many others. Gallup's polling on Democrats also show where the allegiances reside (from earlier this year prior to the terrorist attack).

Are you really surprised at the apathy from progressives? Perhaps, surprised at your own apathy?

It appears that a select number of US troops are preparing to deploy to the Eastern Mediterranean.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/2000-us-troops-told-prepare-deployment-response-israel-hamas-war-rcna120694

@Stevo_the_gamer: Not really surprising that democrats tend to be less supportive of a far right racist and religious extremist government. That's a bigger slice of the republican pie than it is from the democrat. Not saying that being a pos is a Rep exclusive.

Just looking at the conversation here, it's basically people who think it's perfectly fine and just that Israel mass murders Palestinians vs people who condemn both hamas and Israel for doing so.

But you can be sure your side has this in the bag. Israel will probably be allowed to keep denying food, water, energy and humanitarian aid to millions of civilians while bombing them. More so with elections so close and evangelical nutjobs being so determinant, the good guys are sure to win.

Exactly, how is sympathizing more with Palestinians (BEFORE the attack, as the poll dated) apathetic? It doesn't even fit the dictionary definition for crying out loud. The poll he linked doesn't mention apathy at all, that's all just his random and rather bizarre opinion on people who support Palestinians more than Israel. In what way is that apathy lol!?

I can flip that around and say people who support Israel more than Palestine in that poll are even MORE apathetic since one side has clearly killed several times more people over the last decade (and possibly this conflict), and it wouldn't be any more correct or incorrect than his opinion.

I think we have to get outside of this foolish partisan "your views are evil mine aren't, because I said so" mindset, especially on such a nuanced topic.

Can't help but laugh at the lefts hypocrisy 🤣 😂 😆

Like how are you going to get SO salty calling Israel a "far right racist religious extremist" as if ALL THOSE TERMS DOMT FIT PALESTINE AND HAMAS TO A T.

Gay people literally get stoned to death and thrown off buildings in palestine lol

This ideological divide with the left, in regards to the conflict between these 2 countries is very interesting.

And the reason people are OK with Israel's current attack is because they were just attacked.

It's why people aren't going to bitch about Ukraine killing Russians when they quite literally just invaded and attacked by russians. If Israel had attacked palestine without being attacked first everyone would be on the side of palestine. But that's not what happened you goof ball.

The bipolarisation of thought is the biggest threat to our societies. It's politics, but it's everything else too there's no middle ground, no insight, no nuance.