Israel set to build new settlements.

This topic is locked from further discussion.

#-49 Posted by TheFlush (5639 posts) -

@kingoflife9 said:

Jews were in Israel 4,000 years before Islam was even invented. I'm not jewish just saying.

So native americans can rightfully claim all of their land back and force all US citizens into a designated area and stop their trade?

#-48 Posted by GazaAli (23587 posts) -

@Hiddai said:

@deeliman:

Same for the rockets they shoot at Israeli civilains. The difference is that we try to kill just the terrorists and we sometimes accidently kill innocents. They shoot their rockets IN ORDER TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. They don't target our soldiers. There was NEVER an order from an israeli commander to kill civilians and i was in that army so i know what i am talking about. In a war innocent people getting killed and we are all sorry for that. They shoot their rockets nearby populated areas so we would attack them and will kill innocent people so they can later yell we kill civillians.

People like to hate the IDF but they never yell at the rest of the soldiers in Iraq or so that do it as well...

Back in 2008, some 1200 people were killed in operation cast lead out of which only around 100 were militants so I find it really hard to believe what you're saying. Numbers are not exact but they are inline with the statistics and they're proportional with them. I'm not saying the IDF kills civilians as an intrinsic and predetermined part of its code of conduct, but it has no problems doing so when the need calls for it. This "need" however is so vague and can justify a wide range of violations of IHL and basic humanitarian decency. Part of operation cast lead was not only to weaken Hamas and put it in place, but it was also meant to serve the purpose of terrorizing the entire population in order to make them docile and defeat their spirit once and for all. It did a pretty good job by the way. For that to happen the IDF needed a large number of civilian casualties, and it also needed to implement a few intimidation tactics like the use of ammunition that does insane property damage in a wide area, the use of white phosphorus, throwing brochures from the sky among others.

If you were in the army as you said then you know how the atmosphere there and I think it would be extremely hard for you to defend it rationally and objectively. How many IDF soldiers killed Palestinians at checkpoints or in ground invasions for the lolz, for the kicks of it, and out of pure hatred? How many of those were convicted or received an actually proportional punishment for their crimes? Are you familiar with the gigantic number of heinous violations committed by the IDF in the first intifada? We were armed with freaking rocks at that time, so don't wave the rockets argument at me. Aren't you aware of the countless violations and attacks Israeli settlers commit against Palestinians in the West Bank? How about the apartheid policies the IDF implements in both Gaza and the West Bank? How about the silent but systematic cleansing of Palestinian Jerusalemites? I'm so overwhelmed but the shit things the IDF did and continues to do that I truly feel lost in my attempt to list some of them.

I'm not sure what you expect of people who were subjected to this for over 65 years. Israel is a fairly democratic and prosperous state. It achieved a lot of scientific, social and economic advancements since its establishment. It baffles me however how Israelis can't comprehend this very simple and basic notion, the notion that only they created and continue to feed the hatred and vengeful tendencies directed at them by the entire region for that matter.

Don't you even try the prove it routine, youtube alone is filled with so much IDF brutality and monstrosity. Here is a specimen for you to enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd-HP3-EhgA

#-47 Edited by GazaAli (23587 posts) -

@Hiddai said:

@Crunchy_Nuts said:

A countries claim to land is only legitimate if they can hold it by force. Israel's offensive capabilities are better than those of Palestine so there's nothing Palestine can do about it except cry in a corner. They obviously don't want it enough to fight for it.

The Palestinians in the west back have many countries to go to. It isn't the same case with the Jews. Jews aren't safe anywhere. Thankfully we are stronger than all the arab nations altogether. They tried to destroy us for over 60 years unsuccessfully. I guess they gave up. Now that they have realized they can't beat us by force they try to beat us by the media and they do it real good because some people here never been to the ME and all they know about is the subjective media that have never liked the stronger side (Israel).

It is true that Israel is the strongest state in the region, something that is hardly of its own doing, considering how much the U.S and other western powers support it like if they were its bitch. Regardless, you'd be delusional as fuck to think that this can last forever. I'm not coming from theological background, I'm coming from a simple historical and very real one. Israel is an artificial state. It relies heavily on the support of other western powers and the expat Jews. Israeli society is heterogeneous as fuck. Its still standing only because of its common enemy, us. That is one of the many reasons why Israel does not want the conflict to end.

I think every Israeli with a shred of rationality, objectivity and a sense of reality knows at the end of the day that the current status quo they love so much will never last. You should take my word and be convinced by what I'm telling you for a simple reason: I don't give two fucks about the place so I have no reason to BS you or anyone else. All I want is to get the fuck out of here and never come back.

#-46 Posted by pie-junior (2866 posts) -

@GazaAli said:

Back in 2008, some 1200 people were killed in operation cast lead out of which only around 100 were militants so I find it really hard to believe what you're saying.

That I found a bit hard to swallow, considering the initial Israeli attack levelled the Hamas police command with what I remember were around 200 casualties; so I went to wikipedia, looked, and found that even by Hamas estimates there were at least 600 to 700 militant casualties, consistent with the IDF number of around 800.

#-45 Edited by GazaAli (23587 posts) -

@pie-junior said:

@GazaAli said:

Back in 2008, some 1200 people were killed in operation cast lead out of which only around 100 were militants so I find it really hard to believe what you're saying.

That I found a bit hard to swallow, considering the initial Israeli attack levelled the Hamas police command with what I remember were around 200 casualties; so I went to wikipedia, looked, and found that even by Hamas estimates there were at least 600 to 700 militant casualties, consistent with the IDF number of around 800.

Since when policemen are militants? Hamas's militants operate in the brigades of Ez Eldeen AlQassam, Hamas's military wing. Many can be affiliated with Hamas, but they're almost entirely civilians looking for a way to make ends meet and that's that.

I remember it very clearly when "Abu Obaida", Hamas' spokesman went on TV after the truce and made the statement only 49 Qassam militants were killed in the war. He didn't say it because he wanted to increase the number of civilian casualties in an attempt to make Israel looks bad, he really didn't need to at that time. But because he wanted to affirm that Hamas's military capabilities didn't take much of a hit. There was much uproar among Gazans and Palestinians in general over his statements. He made it look like as if it was ok for many people to be killed as long as they're not affiliated strongly or valuable to Hamas, which is the mentality of Hamas of course.

#-44 Edited by Renevent42 (5576 posts) -

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@Crunchy_Nuts said:

A countries claim to land is only legitimate if they can hold it by force. Israel's offensive capabilities are better than those of Palestine so there's nothing Palestine can do about it except cry in a corner. They obviously don't want it enough to fight for it.

The Palestinians in the west back have many countries to go to. It isn't the same case with the Jews. Jews aren't safe anywhere. Thankfully we are stronger than all the arab nations altogether. They tried to destroy us for over 60 years unsuccessfully. I guess they gave up. Now that they have realized they can't beat us by force they try to beat us by the media and they do it real good because some people here never been to the ME and all they know about is the subjective media that have never liked the stronger side (Israel).

It is true that Israel is the strongest state in the region, something that is hardly of its own doing, considering how much the U.S and other western powers support it like if they were its bitch. Regardless, you'd be delusional as fuck to think that this can last forever. I'm not coming from theological background, I'm coming from a simple historical and very real one. Israel is an artificial state. It relies heavily on the support of other western powers and the expat Jews. Israeli society is heterogeneous as fuck. Its still standing only because of its common enemy, us. That is one of the many reasons why Israel does not want the conflict to end.

I think every Israeli with a shred of rationality, objectivity and a sense of reality knows at the end of the day that the current status quo they love so much will never last. You should take my word and be convinced by what I'm telling you for a simple reason: I don't give two fucks about the place so I have no reason to BS you or anyone else. All I want is to get the fuck out of here and never come back.

Puh-lease. US aid to Israel accounts for like 1.5% of it's GDP. Compare that to aid to Palestinians GDP (and how they utterly squander it) and you will start to see the difference. The difference is not a matter of aid, it's a matter of the quality of these respective country's citizens and those who govern them.

Since Israel's inception it has worked tirelessly to irrigate and develop it's land, educate it's citizens, build it's economy, invest in infrastructure, develop a democratic government, and build relationships/partnerships with other countries to benefit it's people.

On the other hand you have the surrounding Arab nations who have oppressed their own people and keeps them uneducated, squandered their natural wealth, isolate themselves politically from the world...oh and yeah...have a fanatical desire to drive the Jooooooo's into the sea (how'd that work out for you?).

Even among the larger more populous Arab countries in the area, Israel spanks them in almost every aspect. Education, quality of life, government, scientific advancement...this is not due to aid...this is due to a country and it's citizenry working towards a common and noble goal. It's a matter of culture.

Anyways I'm not blind and I don't think Israel is completely innocent in this conflict and haven't done harm, but there's no question in my mind as to who will win out. Unless the Arabs get their shit together and start looking internally at how to improve their own societies they are the ones that are doomed. Hell, they can't even get along amongst themselves...

#-43 Posted by themajormayor (24162 posts) -

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@deeliman:

Same for the rockets they shoot at Israeli civilains. The difference is that we try to kill just the terrorists and we sometimes accidently kill innocents. They shoot their rockets IN ORDER TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. They don't target our soldiers. There was NEVER an order from an israeli commander to kill civilians and i was in that army so i know what i am talking about. In a war innocent people getting killed and we are all sorry for that. They shoot their rockets nearby populated areas so we would attack them and will kill innocent people so they can later yell we kill civillians.

People like to hate the IDF but they never yell at the rest of the soldiers in Iraq or so that do it as well...

Back in 2008, some 1200 people were killed in operation cast lead out of which only around 100 were militants so I find it really hard to believe what you're saying.

Those numbers are a bit off.

#-42 Posted by Hiddai (6086 posts) -

@pie-junior said:

@GazaAli said:

Back in 2008, some 1200 people were killed in operation cast lead out of which only around 100 were militants so I find it really hard to believe what you're saying.

That I found a bit hard to swallow, considering the initial Israeli attack levelled the Hamas police command with what I remember were around 200 casualties; so I went to wikipedia, looked, and found that even by Hamas estimates there were at least 600 to 700 militant casualties, consistent with the IDF number of around 800.

Hamas will always BS about the number make it seems IDF is cruel army. They do this Propangnda BS all the time. Unfortunately the arab media is full of BS\propaganda stuff

#-41 Posted by GazaAli (23587 posts) -

@themajormayor said:

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@deeliman:

Same for the rockets they shoot at Israeli civilains. The difference is that we try to kill just the terrorists and we sometimes accidently kill innocents. They shoot their rockets IN ORDER TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. They don't target our soldiers. There was NEVER an order from an israeli commander to kill civilians and i was in that army so i know what i am talking about. In a war innocent people getting killed and we are all sorry for that. They shoot their rockets nearby populated areas so we would attack them and will kill innocent people so they can later yell we kill civillians.

People like to hate the IDF but they never yell at the rest of the soldiers in Iraq or so that do it as well...

Back in 2008, some 1200 people were killed in operation cast lead out of which only around 100 were militants so I find it really hard to believe what you're saying.

Those numbers are a bit off.

I made it clear that they're not exact or accurate, but they were among the lines. But to get this over with, did a quick research and:

The Gaza-based Palestinian Centre for Human Rights reported that the offensive left 1,419 Palestinians dead, including 1,167 civilians. The Centre also reported more than 5,000 Palestinians wounded, as did the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

before you try to discredit the PCHR:

"It" holds Special Consultative Status with the Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) of the United Nations. It is an affiliate of the International Commission of Jurists-Geneva, the International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH) – Paris, the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Network - Copenhagen, the International Legal Assistance Consortium (ILAC) – Stockholm, the World Coalition against the Death Penalty, and the Arab Organization for Human Rights – Cairo

The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem reported 1,385 Palestinians killed, including 762 noncombatants, and 318 minors under the age of 18.

#-40 Edited by themajormayor (24162 posts) -

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@Crunchy_Nuts said:

A countries claim to land is only legitimate if they can hold it by force. Israel's offensive capabilities are better than those of Palestine so there's nothing Palestine can do about it except cry in a corner. They obviously don't want it enough to fight for it.

The Palestinians in the west back have many countries to go to. It isn't the same case with the Jews. Jews aren't safe anywhere. Thankfully we are stronger than all the arab nations altogether. They tried to destroy us for over 60 years unsuccessfully. I guess they gave up. Now that they have realized they can't beat us by force they try to beat us by the media and they do it real good because some people here never been to the ME and all they know about is the subjective media that have never liked the stronger side (Israel).

It is true that Israel is the strongest state in the region, something that is hardly of its own doing, considering how much the U.S and other western powers support it like if they were its bitch. Regardless, you'd be delusional as fuck to think that this can last forever. I'm not coming from theological background, I'm coming from a simple historical and very real one. Israel is an artificial state. It relies heavily on the support of other western powers and the expat Jews. Israeli society is heterogeneous as fuck. Its still standing only because of its common enemy, us. That is one of the many reasons why Israel does not want the conflict to end.

I think every Israeli with a shred of rationality, objectivity and a sense of reality knows at the end of the day that the current status quo they love so much will never last. You should take my word and be convinced by what I'm telling you for a simple reason: I don't give two fucks about the place so I have no reason to BS you or anyone else. All I want is to get the fuck out of here and never come back.

Israel became a regional super power long before it recieved any significant support. Israel basically won the 48 war in 36-39. To quote I think Benny Morris. In 48 they destroyed the invading arab armies and they were not as much underdog as it might pictured. And in 67 it was proved definitely. And by then US had not really started with their support.

By that logic Palestinian nationalism and maybe even the Palestinian identity wouldn't really exist as it is largely a response to Zionism. Now in both cases I don't think it discredit anything. It's a stupid kind of logic. I also do not understand why Israel really need a common enemy. Yes it is a heterogenous society but really the only theat as I see it is a growing religious population and influence. But that's regardless of a common enemy or not.

#-39 Posted by Hiddai (6086 posts) -

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@deeliman:

Same for the rockets they shoot at Israeli civilains. The difference is that we try to kill just the terrorists and we sometimes accidently kill innocents. They shoot their rockets IN ORDER TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. They don't target our soldiers. There was NEVER an order from an israeli commander to kill civilians and i was in that army so i know what i am talking about. In a war innocent people getting killed and we are all sorry for that. They shoot their rockets nearby populated areas so we would attack them and will kill innocent people so they can later yell we kill civillians.

People like to hate the IDF but they never yell at the rest of the soldiers in Iraq or so that do it as well...

Back in 2008, some 1200 people were killed in operation cast lead out of which only around 100 were militants so I find it really hard to believe what you're saying. Numbers are not exact but they are inline with the statistics and they're proportional with them. I'm not saying the IDF kills civilians as an intrinsic and predetermined part of its code of conduct, but it has no problems doing so when the need calls for it. This "need" however is so vague and can justify a wide range of violations of IHL and basic humanitarian decency. Part of operation cast lead was not only to weaken Hamas and put it in place, but it was also meant to serve the purpose of terrorizing the entire population in order to make them docile and defeat their spirit once and for all. It did a pretty good job by the way. For that to happen the IDF needed a large number of civilian casualties, and it also needed to implement a few intimidation tactics like the use of ammunition that does insane property damage in a wide area, the use of white phosphorus, throwing brochures from the sky among others.

If you were in the army as you said then you know how the atmosphere there and I think it would be extremely hard for you to defend it rationally and objectively. How many IDF soldiers killed Palestinians at checkpoints or in ground invasions for the lolz, for the kicks of it, and out of pure hatred? How many of those were convicted or received an actually proportional punishment for their crimes? Are you familiar with the gigantic number of heinous violations committed by the IDF in the first intifada? We were armed with freaking rocks at that time, so don't wave the rockets argument at me. Aren't you aware of the countless violations and attacks Israeli settlers commit against Palestinians in the West Bank? How about the apartheid policies the IDF implements in both Gaza and the West Bank? How about the silent but systematic cleansing of Palestinian Jerusalemites? I'm so overwhelmed but the shit things the IDF did and continues to do that I truly feel lost in my attempt to list some of them.

I'm not sure what you expect of people who were subjected to this for over 65 years. Israel is a fairly democratic and prosperous state. It achieved a lot of scientific, social and economic advancements since its establishment. It baffles me however how Israelis can't comprehend this very simple and basic notion, the notion that only they created and continue to feed the hatred and vengeful tendencies directed at them by the entire region for that matter.

Don't you even try the prove it routine, youtube alone is filled with so much IDF brutality and monstrosity. Here is a specimen for you to enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd-HP3-EhgA

Yes i know and aware of soldiers who treat badly the palestinans. Just for you to know these soldiers are punished. Those things you see on Youtube are because soldiers are bored and it's not like they got an order to do so. US soldiers do that as well in Iraq but the world don't care.

I have heard so many stories from fellow soldiers such as a father tell his 6 years old son to throw stones at soldiers and in the meanwhile he tell someone else to put a camera and picture it. Then when the soldiers arrest the little poor "innocent" boy the cameraman start videotape it and then the whole world see the brutal IDF arresting a little boy. You fight the IDF through media lies.
IDF isn't brutal. Just some stupid soldiers are. IDF is a military of Pu55ies actually, who afraid to do certain acts because they don't want to target civillians. The Russian military for example, or actually any other normal army, would give a 1000 fck about the civillians and will complete his missions.
It's true the atmosephere for most of the soldiers is to kill the arabs but it is blocked by the rationality of the senior ranks and only serve as a typical military joke\moral and nothing more.

#-38 Posted by pie-junior (2866 posts) -

@GazaAli said:
@pie-junior said:

@GazaAli said:

Back in 2008, some 1200 people were killed in operation cast lead out of which only around 100 were militants so I find it really hard to believe what you're saying.

That I found a bit hard to swallow, considering the initial Israeli attack levelled the Hamas police command with what I remember were around 200 casualties; so I went to wikipedia, looked, and found that even by Hamas estimates there were at least 600 to 700 militant casualties, consistent with the IDF number of around 800.

Since when policemen are militants?

If they're carrying a gun and fighting? since always.

I remember it very clearly when "Abu Obaida", Hamas' spokesman went on TV after the truce and made the statement only 49 Qassam militants were killed in the war. He didn't say it because he wanted to increase the number of civilian casualties in an attempt to make Israel looks bad, he really didn't need to at that time. But because he wanted to affirm that Hamas's military capabilities didn't take much of a hit.

Yes, Hamas was trying to safe face by manipulating statistics in its favour. They also claimed an extremely elevated IDF deathtoll and some very laughable accomplishments (If I recall, one was shooting a combat plane down). However, Hamas's military capabilities had taken a massive hit with hundreds of casualties and pervasive reports of mass combat desertions.

#-37 Posted by themajormayor (24162 posts) -

@GazaAli said:

@themajormayor said:

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@deeliman:

Same for the rockets they shoot at Israeli civilains. The difference is that we try to kill just the terrorists and we sometimes accidently kill innocents. They shoot their rockets IN ORDER TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. They don't target our soldiers. There was NEVER an order from an israeli commander to kill civilians and i was in that army so i know what i am talking about. In a war innocent people getting killed and we are all sorry for that. They shoot their rockets nearby populated areas so we would attack them and will kill innocent people so they can later yell we kill civillians.

People like to hate the IDF but they never yell at the rest of the soldiers in Iraq or so that do it as well...

Back in 2008, some 1200 people were killed in operation cast lead out of which only around 100 were militants so I find it really hard to believe what you're saying.

Those numbers are a bit off.

I made it clear that they're not exact or accurate, but they were among the lines. But to get this over with, did a quick research and:

The Gaza-based Palestinian Centre for Human Rights reported that the offensive left 1,419 Palestinians dead, including 1,167 civilians. The Centre also reported more than 5,000 Palestinians wounded, as did the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

before you try to discredit the PCHR:

"It" holds Special Consultative Status with the Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) of the United Nations. It is an affiliate of the International Commission of Jurists-Geneva, the International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH) – Paris, the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Network - Copenhagen, the International Legal Assistance Consortium (ILAC) – Stockholm, the World Coalition against the Death Penalty, and the Arab Organization for Human Rights – Cairo

The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem reported 1,385 Palestinians killed, including 762 noncombatants, and 318 minors under the age of 18.

Well that certainly doesn't make me trust the PCHR anymore than usual.

I'm gonna assume B'Tselem is the most reliable here. About 60% civilians and not almost 95%. I think it shows that they are not deliberately harm civilians. That would only harm Israel and is just completely unneccesary on every level. But I don't think they're neccesarily doing everything they can to avoid it either. That would also harm Israel. It's a tradeoff really.

#-36 Posted by pie-junior (2866 posts) -

Relevant point being: several statements by Hamas leaders had since recanted the early televised report by the Hamas spokesman.

#-35 Posted by GazaAli (23587 posts) -

@themajormayor said:

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@Crunchy_Nuts said:

A countries claim to land is only legitimate if they can hold it by force. Israel's offensive capabilities are better than those of Palestine so there's nothing Palestine can do about it except cry in a corner. They obviously don't want it enough to fight for it.

The Palestinians in the west back have many countries to go to. It isn't the same case with the Jews. Jews aren't safe anywhere. Thankfully we are stronger than all the arab nations altogether. They tried to destroy us for over 60 years unsuccessfully. I guess they gave up. Now that they have realized they can't beat us by force they try to beat us by the media and they do it real good because some people here never been to the ME and all they know about is the subjective media that have never liked the stronger side (Israel).

It is true that Israel is the strongest state in the region, something that is hardly of its own doing, considering how much the U.S and other western powers support it like if they were its bitch. Regardless, you'd be delusional as fuck to think that this can last forever. I'm not coming from theological background, I'm coming from a simple historical and very real one. Israel is an artificial state. It relies heavily on the support of other western powers and the expat Jews. Israeli society is heterogeneous as fuck. Its still standing only because of its common enemy, us. That is one of the many reasons why Israel does not want the conflict to end.

I think every Israeli with a shred of rationality, objectivity and a sense of reality knows at the end of the day that the current status quo they love so much will never last. You should take my word and be convinced by what I'm telling you for a simple reason: I don't give two fucks about the place so I have no reason to BS you or anyone else. All I want is to get the fuck out of here and never come back.

Israel became a regional super power long before it recieved any significant support. Israel basically won the 48 war in 36-39. To quote I think Benny Morris. In 48 they destroyed the invading arab armies and they were not as much underdog as it might pictured. And in 67 it was proved definitely. And by then US had not really started with their support.

By that logic Palestinian nationalism and maybe even the Palestinian identity wouldn't really exist as it is largely a response to Zionism. Now in both cases I don't think it discredit anything. It's a stupid kind of logic. I also do not understand why Israel really need a common enemy. Yes it is a heterogenous society but really the only theat as I see it is a growing religious population and influence. But that's regardless of a common enemy or not.

Its not like the British did not support and facilitate Jewish immigrants and provided them with training and ammunition and even fought along with them at times no? You have to be really dumb and out of touch with logic to think that a bunch of persecuted Jews made their way out of Europe and all of a sudden they became a superpower in the region. Theodor Hertz, the founding father of Zionism believed at 1897 that the establishment and survival of a Jewish state can only be achieved by reliance and allying with western powers. Read on Basel's first Zionist conference.

The need of a common enemy is a basic tactic to achieve all kinds of things in a society. It helps maintain the social fabric and the status quo or at least hide and minimize the various differences that can torn a heterogeneous society apart. The U.S used that tactic after 11/9 to get away with many things that wouldn't have been passed if it was not for the ghoul of AlQaida. I really don't see how you can't see it.

#-34 Edited by pie-junior (2866 posts) -

@GazaAli said:

Its not like the British did not support and facilitate Jewish immigrants and provided them with training and ammunition and even fought along with them at times no?

Well, yea- they really really didn't

#-32 Posted by GazaAli (23587 posts) -

@pie-junior said:

@GazaAli said:

Its not like the British did not support and facilitate Jewish immigrants and provided them with training and ammunition and even fought along with them at times no?

Well, yea- they really really didn't

So you'd rather believe that persecuted, deprived and scattered Jews throughout Europe made their ways out of the ghettos by themselves, arrived at a land surrounded by millions of Arabs and were inhabited by Arabs too, won the 1948 war against Arab forces and established the state of Israel all by themselves without receiving any support from the British who were at that time in control of the Palestinian territories?

This is so absurd that I'm not even willing to start showing that. Carry on.

#-31 Edited by Hiddai (6086 posts) -

@pie-junior said:

@GazaAli said:

Its not like the British did not support and facilitate Jewish immigrants and provided them with training and ammunition and even fought along with them at times no?

Well, yea- they really really didn't

The Pre-IDF organisations stole equipments from the british and some of them even fought against them.

#-30 Posted by GazaAli (23587 posts) -

@pie-junior: Policemen are noncombatant period. There is nothing for anyone to twist here. The police force of Hamas's government is composed of your average Gazan who's looking for a way to provide for his family and believe me wouldn't die for anything or anyone. The brigades of Ez Eldeen AlQassam and the police force are two entirely and absolutely different and separated things that serve different purposes and are not allowed at all to cross each other. The police force's mandate and scope of work is completely related to civil matters and interior affairs. I don't even know why I'm mentioning these things, a 5 years old would know them.

#-29 Edited by pie-junior (2866 posts) -

@GazaAli said:

@pie-junior said:

@GazaAli said:

Its not like the British did not support and facilitate Jewish immigrants and provided them with training and ammunition and even fought along with them at times no?

Well, yea- they really really didn't

So you'd rather believe that persecuted, deprived and scattered Jews throughout Europe made their ways out of the ghettos by themselves, arrived at a land surrounded by millions of Arabs and were inhabited by Arabs too, won the 1948 war against Arab forces and established the state of Israel all by themselves without receiving any support from the British who were at that time in control of the Palestinian territories?

This is so absurd that I'm not even willing to start showing that. Carry on.

I don't have to believe anything. The organised Jewish settlemnt in Palestine was in existence for decades before 1948, and had a functioning and rapidly growing internal government organisations and economy. Not to mention the Jewish leadership with its paramilitary groups were in open war with the british for a decade before the establishment of the Israeli state. IRRC, there was even an air skirmish between Israeli and british planes during the war.

also-

I guess that could sound ridiculous, but It would have been entirely outrageous if the unorganised, ill-equipped Palestinian military forces joined with relatively small foreign arab contingency forces, in a state almost as bad (with the exception of the Jordanian army) had beaten the large and well organised jewish forces.

#-28 Posted by themajormayor (24162 posts) -

@GazaAli said:

@themajormayor said:

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@Crunchy_Nuts said:

A countries claim to land is only legitimate if they can hold it by force. Israel's offensive capabilities are better than those of Palestine so there's nothing Palestine can do about it except cry in a corner. They obviously don't want it enough to fight for it.

The Palestinians in the west back have many countries to go to. It isn't the same case with the Jews. Jews aren't safe anywhere. Thankfully we are stronger than all the arab nations altogether. They tried to destroy us for over 60 years unsuccessfully. I guess they gave up. Now that they have realized they can't beat us by force they try to beat us by the media and they do it real good because some people here never been to the ME and all they know about is the subjective media that have never liked the stronger side (Israel).

It is true that Israel is the strongest state in the region, something that is hardly of its own doing, considering how much the U.S and other western powers support it like if they were its bitch. Regardless, you'd be delusional as fuck to think that this can last forever. I'm not coming from theological background, I'm coming from a simple historical and very real one. Israel is an artificial state. It relies heavily on the support of other western powers and the expat Jews. Israeli society is heterogeneous as fuck. Its still standing only because of its common enemy, us. That is one of the many reasons why Israel does not want the conflict to end.

I think every Israeli with a shred of rationality, objectivity and a sense of reality knows at the end of the day that the current status quo they love so much will never last. You should take my word and be convinced by what I'm telling you for a simple reason: I don't give two fucks about the place so I have no reason to BS you or anyone else. All I want is to get the fuck out of here and never come back.

Israel became a regional super power long before it recieved any significant support. Israel basically won the 48 war in 36-39. To quote I think Benny Morris. In 48 they destroyed the invading arab armies and they were not as much underdog as it might pictured. And in 67 it was proved definitely. And by then US had not really started with their support.

By that logic Palestinian nationalism and maybe even the Palestinian identity wouldn't really exist as it is largely a response to Zionism. Now in both cases I don't think it discredit anything. It's a stupid kind of logic. I also do not understand why Israel really need a common enemy. Yes it is a heterogenous society but really the only theat as I see it is a growing religious population and influence. But that's regardless of a common enemy or not.

Its not like the British did not support and facilitate Jewish immigrants and provided them with training and ammunition and even fought along with them at times no? You have to be really dumb and out of touch with logic to think that a bunch of persecuted Jews made their way out of Europe and all of a sudden they became a superpower in the region. Theodor Hertz, the founding father of Zionism believed at 1897 that the establishment and survival of a Jewish state can only be achieved by reliance and allying with western powers. Read on Basel's first Zionist conference.

The need of a common enemy is a basic tactic to achieve all kinds of things in a society. It helps maintain the social fabric and the status quo or at least hide and minimize the various differences that can torn a heterogeneous society apart. The U.S used that tactic after 11/9 to get away with many things that wouldn't have been passed if it was not for the ghoul of AlQaida. I really don't see how you can't see it.

The British pretty much did the opposite alot of times. Let's remember that hundreds of thousands of Jews didn't just pop up in palestine after the 2nd world war. This was a community that had been growing for 70 years prior. And that community did afterall mostly consist of people coming from more developed nations and were probably very good educated. And also much more unified than any of the communities around them. There was alot of internal fighting among the arabs of Palestines before Israel was established.

#-27 Posted by themajormayor (24162 posts) -

@GazaAli said:

The need of a common enemy is a basic tactic to achieve all kinds of things in a society. It helps maintain the social fabric and the status quo or at least hide and minimize the various differences that can torn a heterogeneous society apart. The U.S used that tactic after 11/9 to get away with many things that wouldn't have been passed if it was not for the ghoul of AlQaida. I really don't see how you can't see it.

Yeah but it's not like the state would collapse without it.

#-26 Posted by thebest31406 (3555 posts) -

@Renevent42 said:

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@Crunchy_Nuts said:

A countries claim to land is only legitimate if they can hold it by force. Israel's offensive capabilities are better than those of Palestine so there's nothing Palestine can do about it except cry in a corner. They obviously don't want it enough to fight for it.

The Palestinians in the west back have many countries to go to. It isn't the same case with the Jews. Jews aren't safe anywhere. Thankfully we are stronger than all the arab nations altogether. They tried to destroy us for over 60 years unsuccessfully. I guess they gave up. Now that they have realized they can't beat us by force they try to beat us by the media and they do it real good because some people here never been to the ME and all they know about is the subjective media that have never liked the stronger side (Israel).

It is true that Israel is the strongest state in the region, something that is hardly of its own doing, considering how much the U.S and other western powers support it like if they were its bitch. Regardless, you'd be delusional as fuck to think that this can last forever. I'm not coming from theological background, I'm coming from a simple historical and very real one. Israel is an artificial state. It relies heavily on the support of other western powers and the expat Jews. Israeli society is heterogeneous as fuck. Its still standing only because of its common enemy, us. That is one of the many reasons why Israel does not want the conflict to end.

I think every Israeli with a shred of rationality, objectivity and a sense of reality knows at the end of the day that the current status quo they love so much will never last. You should take my word and be convinced by what I'm telling you for a simple reason: I don't give two fucks about the place so I have no reason to BS you or anyone else. All I want is to get the fuck out of here and never come back.

Puh-lease. US aid to Israel accounts for like 1.5% of it's GDP. Compare that to aid to Palestinians GDP (and how they utterly squander it) and you will start to see the difference. The difference is not a matter of aid, it's a matter of the quality of these respective country's citizens and those who govern them.

Since Israel's inception it has worked tirelessly to irrigate and develop it's land, educate it's citizens, build it's economy, invest in infrastructure, develop a democratic government, and build relationships/partnerships with other countries to benefit it's people.

On the other hand you have the surrounding Arab nations who have oppressed their own people and keeps them uneducated, squandered their natural wealth, isolate themselves politically from the world...oh and yeah...have a fanatical desire to drive the Jooooooo's into the sea (how'd that work out for you?).

Even among the larger more populous Arab countries in the area, Israel spanks them in almost every aspect. Education, quality of life, government, scientific advancement...this is not due to aid...this is due to a country and it's citizenry working towards a common and noble goal. It's a matter of culture.

Anyways I'm not blind and I don't think Israel is completely innocent in this conflict and haven't done harm, but there's no question in my mind as to who will win out. Unless the Arabs get their shit together and start looking internally at how to improve their own societies they are the ones that are doomed. Hell, they can't even get along amongst themselves...

The U.S. provides Israel $8.5 million in military aid each day while providing the Palestinians $0. That's why Israel is able to do what it does.

#-25 Posted by pie-junior (2866 posts) -
@GazaAli said:

@pie-junior: Policemen are noncombatant period. There is nothing for anyone to twist here. The police force of Hamas's government is composed of your average Gazan who's looking for a way to provide for his family and believe me wouldn't die for anything or anyone. The brigades of Ez Eldeen AlQassam and the police force are two entirely and absolutely different and separated things that serve different purposes and are not allowed at all to cross each other. The police force's mandate and scope of work is completely related to civil matters and interior affairs. I don't even know why I'm mentioning these things, a 5 years old would know them.

Apparently the 5 year old would not have an entirely throrough understanding of humanitarian internationa law. The organizational seperation between the Gazan police and the military wing of the hamas does not necessarily matter, considering they had military or defensive capabilites and were subordinate to the hamas regime.
Additionally, if a person is carrying a weapon and participating in hostilities aimed at an armed forces, it really doesn't matter what his professional capacity is, he's a very obvious combatant; even if an illegal one denied combatant protection in the 3rd geneva convention.

#-24 Posted by Hiddai (6086 posts) -

@thebest31406 said:

@Renevent42 said:

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@Crunchy_Nuts said:

A countries claim to land is only legitimate if they can hold it by force. Israel's offensive capabilities are better than those of Palestine so there's nothing Palestine can do about it except cry in a corner. They obviously don't want it enough to fight for it.

The Palestinians in the west back have many countries to go to. It isn't the same case with the Jews. Jews aren't safe anywhere. Thankfully we are stronger than all the arab nations altogether. They tried to destroy us for over 60 years unsuccessfully. I guess they gave up. Now that they have realized they can't beat us by force they try to beat us by the media and they do it real good because some people here never been to the ME and all they know about is the subjective media that have never liked the stronger side (Israel).

It is true that Israel is the strongest state in the region, something that is hardly of its own doing, considering how much the U.S and other western powers support it like if they were its bitch. Regardless, you'd be delusional as fuck to think that this can last forever. I'm not coming from theological background, I'm coming from a simple historical and very real one. Israel is an artificial state. It relies heavily on the support of other western powers and the expat Jews. Israeli society is heterogeneous as fuck. Its still standing only because of its common enemy, us. That is one of the many reasons why Israel does not want the conflict to end.

I think every Israeli with a shred of rationality, objectivity and a sense of reality knows at the end of the day that the current status quo they love so much will never last. You should take my word and be convinced by what I'm telling you for a simple reason: I don't give two fucks about the place so I have no reason to BS you or anyone else. All I want is to get the fuck out of here and never come back.

Puh-lease. US aid to Israel accounts for like 1.5% of it's GDP. Compare that to aid to Palestinians GDP (and how they utterly squander it) and you will start to see the difference. The difference is not a matter of aid, it's a matter of the quality of these respective country's citizens and those who govern them.

Since Israel's inception it has worked tirelessly to irrigate and develop it's land, educate it's citizens, build it's economy, invest in infrastructure, develop a democratic government, and build relationships/partnerships with other countries to benefit it's people.

On the other hand you have the surrounding Arab nations who have oppressed their own people and keeps them uneducated, squandered their natural wealth, isolate themselves politically from the world...oh and yeah...have a fanatical desire to drive the Jooooooo's into the sea (how'd that work out for you?).

Even among the larger more populous Arab countries in the area, Israel spanks them in almost every aspect. Education, quality of life, government, scientific advancement...this is not due to aid...this is due to a country and it's citizenry working towards a common and noble goal. It's a matter of culture.

Anyways I'm not blind and I don't think Israel is completely innocent in this conflict and haven't done harm, but there's no question in my mind as to who will win out. Unless the Arabs get their shit together and start looking internally at how to improve their own societies they are the ones that are doomed. Hell, they can't even get along amongst themselves...

The U.S. provides Israel $8.5 million in military aid each day while providing the Palestinians $0. That's why Israel is able to do what it does.

each day? lol
US give us $3 billion each year. This is not the reason of our superiority. It sure does give us things that help to be one. However most of the superiority of us come from things we develop here thus can not be paid with the US aid. Israel can survive very well even wouthout $3 Billion dollar a year believe me...

#-23 Posted by GazaAli (23587 posts) -

@pie-junior: ok answer this, do policemen who serve in Hamas's de facto government. take part in hostilities against Israel?

#-22 Edited by buccomatic (1941 posts) -

i say burn the israelis to death with white phosphorus - man, woman and child. it's what they would do to the palestinians, so give them a dose of their own medicine.

#-21 Edited by GazaAli (23587 posts) -

@Hiddai: 3 billion a year means approximately 8.5 millions a day...

I fail to see how 3 billion a year in military aid, protection of any kind of accountability and incrimination, intelligence and scientific cooperation, international pressure against anything that is not in the interest of Israel among shitload of other things the U.S does for Israel are not at least a large part of your superiority. I suggest you read on Theodor Herzl the founding father of Zionism and the one who one way or the other made the state of Israel a reality, and see what he thinks of the role of the west and the world's major power in the establishment, survival and the superiority of Israel.

#-20 Posted by pie-junior (2866 posts) -

@GazaAli:

Like, offensive actions? I'd assume not. Defensive actions is something different entirely.

#-19 Posted by GazaAli (23587 posts) -

@buccomatic said:

i say burn the israelis to death with white phosphorus - man, woman and child. it's what they would do to the palestinians, so give them a dose of their own medicine.

But Israel is the only beacon of light, of human rights and of progressiveness in the Middle East rofl.

#-18 Posted by GazaAli (23587 posts) -
@themajormayor said:

@GazaAli said:

The need of a common enemy is a basic tactic to achieve all kinds of things in a society. It helps maintain the social fabric and the status quo or at least hide and minimize the various differences that can torn a heterogeneous society apart. The U.S used that tactic after 11/9 to get away with many things that wouldn't have been passed if it was not for the ghoul of AlQaida. I really don't see how you can't see it.

Yeah but it's not like the state would collapse without it.

That is subjective and context dependent. At times it may not that big of a deal and its absence wouldn't lead a certain state to collapse and perish. At other times it may very well lead to that or at least be feared that it would lead to such an outcome.

#-17 Edited by themajormayor (24162 posts) -

@thebest31406 said:

@Renevent42 said:

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@Crunchy_Nuts said:

A countries claim to land is only legitimate if they can hold it by force. Israel's offensive capabilities are better than those of Palestine so there's nothing Palestine can do about it except cry in a corner. They obviously don't want it enough to fight for it.

The Palestinians in the west back have many countries to go to. It isn't the same case with the Jews. Jews aren't safe anywhere. Thankfully we are stronger than all the arab nations altogether. They tried to destroy us for over 60 years unsuccessfully. I guess they gave up. Now that they have realized they can't beat us by force they try to beat us by the media and they do it real good because some people here never been to the ME and all they know about is the subjective media that have never liked the stronger side (Israel).

It is true that Israel is the strongest state in the region, something that is hardly of its own doing, considering how much the U.S and other western powers support it like if they were its bitch. Regardless, you'd be delusional as fuck to think that this can last forever. I'm not coming from theological background, I'm coming from a simple historical and very real one. Israel is an artificial state. It relies heavily on the support of other western powers and the expat Jews. Israeli society is heterogeneous as fuck. Its still standing only because of its common enemy, us. That is one of the many reasons why Israel does not want the conflict to end.

I think every Israeli with a shred of rationality, objectivity and a sense of reality knows at the end of the day that the current status quo they love so much will never last. You should take my word and be convinced by what I'm telling you for a simple reason: I don't give two fucks about the place so I have no reason to BS you or anyone else. All I want is to get the fuck out of here and never come back.

Puh-lease. US aid to Israel accounts for like 1.5% of it's GDP. Compare that to aid to Palestinians GDP (and how they utterly squander it) and you will start to see the difference. The difference is not a matter of aid, it's a matter of the quality of these respective country's citizens and those who govern them.

Since Israel's inception it has worked tirelessly to irrigate and develop it's land, educate it's citizens, build it's economy, invest in infrastructure, develop a democratic government, and build relationships/partnerships with other countries to benefit it's people.

On the other hand you have the surrounding Arab nations who have oppressed their own people and keeps them uneducated, squandered their natural wealth, isolate themselves politically from the world...oh and yeah...have a fanatical desire to drive the Jooooooo's into the sea (how'd that work out for you?).

Even among the larger more populous Arab countries in the area, Israel spanks them in almost every aspect. Education, quality of life, government, scientific advancement...this is not due to aid...this is due to a country and it's citizenry working towards a common and noble goal. It's a matter of culture.

Anyways I'm not blind and I don't think Israel is completely innocent in this conflict and haven't done harm, but there's no question in my mind as to who will win out. Unless the Arabs get their shit together and start looking internally at how to improve their own societies they are the ones that are doomed. Hell, they can't even get along amongst themselves...

The U.S. provides Israel $8.5 million in military aid each day while providing the Palestinians $0. That's why Israel is able to do what it does.

I doubt 1.5% is why Israel is able to do "what it does". Whatever that means. Lots of countries are able to do "what they do" without US aid.

The Palestinians recieve more aid than Israel. Including security assistance from the US.

#-16 Posted by buccomatic (1941 posts) -

@GazaAli said:

@buccomatic said:

i say burn the israelis to death with white phosphorus - man, woman and child. it's what they would do to the palestinians, so give them a dose of their own medicine.

But Israel is the only beacon of light, of human rights and of progressiveness in the Middle East rofl.

yeah so long as your definition of "beacon of light, human rights and progressiveness" = evil, mass murdering, inbred racist, psychopathic devil worshippers

#-15 Posted by themajormayor (24162 posts) -

@GazaAli said:
@themajormayor said:

@GazaAli said:

The need of a common enemy is a basic tactic to achieve all kinds of things in a society. It helps maintain the social fabric and the status quo or at least hide and minimize the various differences that can torn a heterogeneous society apart. The U.S used that tactic after 11/9 to get away with many things that wouldn't have been passed if it was not for the ghoul of AlQaida. I really don't see how you can't see it.

Yeah but it's not like the state would collapse without it.

That is subjective and context dependent. At times it may not that big of a deal and its absence wouldn't lead a certain state to collapse and perish. At other times it may very well lead to that or at least be feared that it would lead to such an outcome.

I am talking about Israel specifically.

#-14 Posted by Renevent42 (5576 posts) -

@themajormayor said:

@thebest31406 said:

@Renevent42 said:

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@Crunchy_Nuts said:

A countries claim to land is only legitimate if they can hold it by force. Israel's offensive capabilities are better than those of Palestine so there's nothing Palestine can do about it except cry in a corner. They obviously don't want it enough to fight for it.

The Palestinians in the west back have many countries to go to. It isn't the same case with the Jews. Jews aren't safe anywhere. Thankfully we are stronger than all the arab nations altogether. They tried to destroy us for over 60 years unsuccessfully. I guess they gave up. Now that they have realized they can't beat us by force they try to beat us by the media and they do it real good because some people here never been to the ME and all they know about is the subjective media that have never liked the stronger side (Israel).

It is true that Israel is the strongest state in the region, something that is hardly of its own doing, considering how much the U.S and other western powers support it like if they were its bitch. Regardless, you'd be delusional as fuck to think that this can last forever. I'm not coming from theological background, I'm coming from a simple historical and very real one. Israel is an artificial state. It relies heavily on the support of other western powers and the expat Jews. Israeli society is heterogeneous as fuck. Its still standing only because of its common enemy, us. That is one of the many reasons why Israel does not want the conflict to end.

I think every Israeli with a shred of rationality, objectivity and a sense of reality knows at the end of the day that the current status quo they love so much will never last. You should take my word and be convinced by what I'm telling you for a simple reason: I don't give two fucks about the place so I have no reason to BS you or anyone else. All I want is to get the fuck out of here and never come back.

Puh-lease. US aid to Israel accounts for like 1.5% of it's GDP. Compare that to aid to Palestinians GDP (and how they utterly squander it) and you will start to see the difference. The difference is not a matter of aid, it's a matter of the quality of these respective country's citizens and those who govern them.

Since Israel's inception it has worked tirelessly to irrigate and develop it's land, educate it's citizens, build it's economy, invest in infrastructure, develop a democratic government, and build relationships/partnerships with other countries to benefit it's people.

On the other hand you have the surrounding Arab nations who have oppressed their own people and keeps them uneducated, squandered their natural wealth, isolate themselves politically from the world...oh and yeah...have a fanatical desire to drive the Jooooooo's into the sea (how'd that work out for you?).

Even among the larger more populous Arab countries in the area, Israel spanks them in almost every aspect. Education, quality of life, government, scientific advancement...this is not due to aid...this is due to a country and it's citizenry working towards a common and noble goal. It's a matter of culture.

Anyways I'm not blind and I don't think Israel is completely innocent in this conflict and haven't done harm, but there's no question in my mind as to who will win out. Unless the Arabs get their shit together and start looking internally at how to improve their own societies they are the ones that are doomed. Hell, they can't even get along amongst themselves...

The U.S. provides Israel $8.5 million in military aid each day while providing the Palestinians $0. That's why Israel is able to do what it does.

I doubt 1.5% is why Israel is able to do "what it does". Whatever that means. Lots of countries are able to do "what they do" without US aid.

The Palestinians recieve more aid than Israel. Including security assistance from the US.

They do receive tons of aid, the problem is they squander it through corruption and other issues. There's a reports out there showing billions of dollars literally being "lost" and not able to be accounted for.

#-13 Edited by themajormayor (24162 posts) -

It's getting a bit anti-semitic in this thread.

#-12 Edited by pie-junior (2866 posts) -
@GazaAli said:

@buccomatic said:

i say burn the israelis to death with white phosphorus - man, woman and child. it's what they would do to the palestinians, so give them a dose of their own medicine.

But Israel is the only beacon of light, of human rights and of progressiveness in the Middle East rofl.

This kind of sarcasm won't work if you keep using statements that are embarrassingly close to being accurate.

#-11 Posted by GazaAli (23587 posts) -

@themajormayor: What happened to you :(

#-10 Posted by themajormayor (24162 posts) -

@GazaAli said:

@themajormayor: What happened to you :(

Huh? What do you mean? :(

#-9 Posted by GazaAli (23587 posts) -
@pie-junior said:
@GazaAli said:

@buccomatic said:

i say burn the israelis to death with white phosphorus - man, woman and child. it's what they would do to the palestinians, so give them a dose of their own medicine.

But Israel is the only beacon of light, of human rights and of progressiveness in the Middle East rofl.

This kind of sarcasm won't work if you keep using statements that are embarrassingly close to being accurate.

Only thing is this is no where near accurate. Is Israel the most scientifically advanced, prosperous and economically well-established state with strongest military and institutions in the region? Yes absolutely. Is it a beacon of light, of human rights and of progressiveness? Not even close.

#-8 Edited by Hiddai (6086 posts) -

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai: 3 billion a year means approximately 8.5 millions a day...

I fail to see how 3 billion a year in military aid, protection of any kind of accountability and incrimination, intelligence and scientific cooperation, international pressure against anything that is not in the interest of Israel among shitload of other things the U.S does for Israel are not at least a large part of your superiority. I suggest you read on Theodor Herzl the founding father of Zionism and the one who one way or the other made the state of Israel a reality, and see what he thinks of the role of the west and the world's major power in the establishment, survival and the superiority of Israel.

Nobody care about Herzl and the things he said in Israel...Herzl is the past with all due respect. He didn't live during the 40s when some of the more modern views of zionism begun emerging. And i don't need people teaching me about him i have done enough H.W on that guy lol. We respect him but he is not god

#-7 Edited by themajormayor (24162 posts) -

@GazaAli said:
@pie-junior said:
@GazaAli said:

@buccomatic said:

i say burn the israelis to death with white phosphorus - man, woman and child. it's what they would do to the palestinians, so give them a dose of their own medicine.

But Israel is the only beacon of light, of human rights and of progressiveness in the Middle East rofl.

This kind of sarcasm won't work if you keep using statements that are embarrassingly close to being accurate.

Only thing is this is no where near accurate. Is Israel the most scientifically advanced, prosperous and economically well-established state with strongest military and institutions in the region? Yes absolutely. Is it a beacon of light, of human rights and of progressiveness? Not even close.

Well comparetively it's not too far from the truth. But it doesn't neccesarily say very much if you look at the region.

#-6 Posted by buccomatic (1941 posts) -

@themajormayor said:

It's getting a bit anti-semitic in this thread.

nah... it's more like people are just starting to stand up for what's good and right instead of letting those evil inbred racists get away with mass murder / genocide

#-5 Posted by themajormayor (24162 posts) -

@buccomatic said:

@themajormayor said:

It's getting a bit anti-semitic in this thread.

nah... it's more like people are just starting to stand up for what's good and right instead of letting those evil inbred racists get away with mass murder / genocide

Do you want to burn every Israeli child including Palestinian Israelis or just the Jewish Israelis?

tbh what Israel is doing is for sure at times immoral and has horrible consequenses. But thanks to the attention this conflict is getting people are able to get away with real genocides.

#-4 Posted by GazaAli (23587 posts) -
@Renevent42 said:

@themajormayor said:

@thebest31406 said:

@Renevent42 said:

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@Crunchy_Nuts said:

A countries claim to land is only legitimate if they can hold it by force. Israel's offensive capabilities are better than those of Palestine so there's nothing Palestine can do about it except cry in a corner. They obviously don't want it enough to fight for it.

The Palestinians in the west back have many countries to go to. It isn't the same case with the Jews. Jews aren't safe anywhere. Thankfully we are stronger than all the arab nations altogether. They tried to destroy us for over 60 years unsuccessfully. I guess they gave up. Now that they have realized they can't beat us by force they try to beat us by the media and they do it real good because some people here never been to the ME and all they know about is the subjective media that have never liked the stronger side (Israel).

It is true that Israel is the strongest state in the region, something that is hardly of its own doing, considering how much the U.S and other western powers support it like if they were its bitch. Regardless, you'd be delusional as fuck to think that this can last forever. I'm not coming from theological background, I'm coming from a simple historical and very real one. Israel is an artificial state. It relies heavily on the support of other western powers and the expat Jews. Israeli society is heterogeneous as fuck. Its still standing only because of its common enemy, us. That is one of the many reasons why Israel does not want the conflict to end.

I think every Israeli with a shred of rationality, objectivity and a sense of reality knows at the end of the day that the current status quo they love so much will never last. You should take my word and be convinced by what I'm telling you for a simple reason: I don't give two fucks about the place so I have no reason to BS you or anyone else. All I want is to get the fuck out of here and never come back.

Puh-lease. US aid to Israel accounts for like 1.5% of it's GDP. Compare that to aid to Palestinians GDP (and how they utterly squander it) and you will start to see the difference. The difference is not a matter of aid, it's a matter of the quality of these respective country's citizens and those who govern them.

Since Israel's inception it has worked tirelessly to irrigate and develop it's land, educate it's citizens, build it's economy, invest in infrastructure, develop a democratic government, and build relationships/partnerships with other countries to benefit it's people.

On the other hand you have the surrounding Arab nations who have oppressed their own people and keeps them uneducated, squandered their natural wealth, isolate themselves politically from the world...oh and yeah...have a fanatical desire to drive the Jooooooo's into the sea (how'd that work out for you?).

Even among the larger more populous Arab countries in the area, Israel spanks them in almost every aspect. Education, quality of life, government, scientific advancement...this is not due to aid...this is due to a country and it's citizenry working towards a common and noble goal. It's a matter of culture.

Anyways I'm not blind and I don't think Israel is completely innocent in this conflict and haven't done harm, but there's no question in my mind as to who will win out. Unless the Arabs get their shit together and start looking internally at how to improve their own societies they are the ones that are doomed. Hell, they can't even get along amongst themselves...

The U.S. provides Israel $8.5 million in military aid each day while providing the Palestinians $0. That's why Israel is able to do what it does.

I doubt 1.5% is why Israel is able to do "what it does". Whatever that means. Lots of countries are able to do "what they do" without US aid.

The Palestinians recieve more aid than Israel. Including security assistance from the US.

They do receive tons of aid, the problem is they squander it through corruption and other issues. There's a reports out there showing billions of dollars literally being "lost" and not able to be accounted for.

We do receive a lot of aid from the U.S and the EU alike, but its no where near the amount Israel gets. Much of it is spent on humanitarian aid, something that is a direct consequence of Israel's actions in the past 65 years I don't see how this is news to anyone. There is corruption in the PA certainly, they're a bunch of dipshits no doubt in there. Still, the amount that this corruption wastes wouldn't account for the ineffectiveness and unviability of international aid directed at Palestinians. Most of it is spent on vague and non-development related shit like "psychosocial support", "women participation", "youth engagement" and other trivial programs that are specifically requested by the donor.

Still, I do concur that we should be able to lift ourselves up off the ground, and it is our responsibility one way or the other to emancipate ourselves and live a decent life.

#-3 Edited by pie-junior (2866 posts) -

@GazaAli:

Says you. Israel is the only regional state with effective inter-governmental reuglation (like an ombudsman, or the prolific institute of inquiry commissions), it's the only regional state where the Supreme court has an actual and significant checking power against the other branches of government- and the executive branch wouldn't think of assaulting it; it's the only country where there is something resembling a democratic mindset with its citizenry; it's the only regional state with a free local press and unmolested local quality of government and human rights organizations; It's the only state in the region progressive enough to have had a female head of state, numerous female supreme court justices and that has powerful lobbying groups and parties dedicated to a feminist legislative agenda; It's the only regional state that is currently dealing politically with the hot issue in the west of Gay marriage.

and I could -like- go on, but that would be excessive and come dangerously close to shadomoses levels of acclaim

#-2 Posted by GazaAli (23587 posts) -

@Hiddai said:

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai: 3 billion a year means approximately 8.5 millions a day...

I fail to see how 3 billion a year in military aid, protection of any kind of accountability and incrimination, intelligence and scientific cooperation, international pressure against anything that is not in the interest of Israel among shitload of other things the U.S does for Israel are not at least a large part of your superiority. I suggest you read on Theodor Herzl the founding father of Zionism and the one who one way or the other made the state of Israel a reality, and see what he thinks of the role of the west and the world's major power in the establishment, survival and the superiority of Israel.

Nobody care about Herzl and the things he said in Israel...Herzl is the past with all due respect. He didn't live during the 40s when some of the more modern views of zionism begun emerging. And i don't need people teaching me about him i have done enough H.W on that guy lol. We respect him but he is not god

I never said he's God but I fail to see how the founding father of Zionism and the state of Israel is all of a sudden irrelevant and a thing of the past? Is it due to the fact that what he said doesn't set right with what you're trying to advocate here?

#-1 Edited by thebest31406 (3555 posts) -

@themajormayor said:

@thebest31406 said:

@Renevent42 said:

@GazaAli said:

@Hiddai said:

@Crunchy_Nuts said:

A countries claim to land is only legitimate if they can hold it by force. Israel's offensive capabilities are better than those of Palestine so there's nothing Palestine can do about it except cry in a corner. They obviously don't want it enough to fight for it.

The Palestinians in the west back have many countries to go to. It isn't the same case with the Jews. Jews aren't safe anywhere. Thankfully we are stronger than all the arab nations altogether. They tried to destroy us for over 60 years unsuccessfully. I guess they gave up. Now that they have realized they can't beat us by force they try to beat us by the media and they do it real good because some people here never been to the ME and all they know about is the subjective media that have never liked the stronger side (Israel).

It is true that Israel is the strongest state in the region, something that is hardly of its own doing, considering how much the U.S and other western powers support it like if they were its bitch. Regardless, you'd be delusional as fuck to think that this can last forever. I'm not coming from theological background, I'm coming from a simple historical and very real one. Israel is an artificial state. It relies heavily on the support of other western powers and the expat Jews. Israeli society is heterogeneous as fuck. Its still standing only because of its common enemy, us. That is one of the many reasons why Israel does not want the conflict to end.

I think every Israeli with a shred of rationality, objectivity and a sense of reality knows at the end of the day that the current status quo they love so much will never last. You should take my word and be convinced by what I'm telling you for a simple reason: I don't give two fucks about the place so I have no reason to BS you or anyone else. All I want is to get the fuck out of here and never come back.

Puh-lease. US aid to Israel accounts for like 1.5% of it's GDP. Compare that to aid to Palestinians GDP (and how they utterly squander it) and you will start to see the difference. The difference is not a matter of aid, it's a matter of the quality of these respective country's citizens and those who govern them.

Since Israel's inception it has worked tirelessly to irrigate and develop it's land, educate it's citizens, build it's economy, invest in infrastructure, develop a democratic government, and build relationships/partnerships with other countries to benefit it's people.

On the other hand you have the surrounding Arab nations who have oppressed their own people and keeps them uneducated, squandered their natural wealth, isolate themselves politically from the world...oh and yeah...have a fanatical desire to drive the Jooooooo's into the sea (how'd that work out for you?).

Even among the larger more populous Arab countries in the area, Israel spanks them in almost every aspect. Education, quality of life, government, scientific advancement...this is not due to aid...this is due to a country and it's citizenry working towards a common and noble goal. It's a matter of culture.

Anyways I'm not blind and I don't think Israel is completely innocent in this conflict and haven't done harm, but there's no question in my mind as to who will win out. Unless the Arabs get their shit together and start looking internally at how to improve their own societies they are the ones that are doomed. Hell, they can't even get along amongst themselves...

The U.S. provides Israel $8.5 million in military aid each day while providing the Palestinians $0. That's why Israel is able to do what it does.

I doubt 1.5% is why Israel is able to do "what it does". Whatever that means. Lots of countries are able to do "what they do" without US aid.

The Palestinians recieve more aid than Israel. Including security assistance from the US.

I'm not talking about cash money. I'm talking about military aid; aid that comes in the form of sophisticated U.S. military weaponry...3 billion dollars worth. More than enough to maintain a military occupation. Of course you're right, weaponry alone isn't enough. You need U.S. diplomatic and political support, which helps a great deal as we know.

#0 Posted by themajormayor (24162 posts) -

Israel had a female head of government not state. Just saying. That says even more though.