Israel admits Ethiopian women were coerced into birth control shots

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#101 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -
[QUOTE="thebest31406"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="pie-junior"]

*The nazi comparisons are obvious hyperboles, cosndiering the irony involved in the 'jewish' state participating in administrated eugenics.

*They 'brought' them in- because they had to, they coerced contraceptives- because they didnt want to . That was my point. An administrative authority depends on statistical data to measure success- how far we're managed to promote education; how far we've managed to promote emplyment. etc. the clerks and elected officials in the executive branches have no motivation to take in uneducated destitute people into society. They fvck up their statistics- and prevent reelection or job advancement and effort recognition. (unless i'm seriously undervaluing the extents of the racial factors involved)

*The acts are obviously illegal under israeli law. But the policies we're, apparently, part of the 'official' acting of administrative discretion. That is institutional racism- public institutions can still break the law.

*I thought (as an israeli from middle-eastern origins) that you'd recognize the extreme example I gave in the form of the abducted Yemenis- guess not. I don't feel like arguing this point, but I think it's been substantiated enough that the accusations were pretty accurate.

wheter they are hyperboles or not, its pretty damn insulting, as far as I see it , its a cheap insult and you know why. I also find it odd how everyone expects perfection, it sounds like "oh the Jews suffered , so they should be nice to everybody" , as though we have to learn lessons from it. thats what Im getting from it anyways. what you said is obvious , and could indeed account for this (even if people are not looking at it in the context its happening, or the details of it), and Ive said it before, if somebody was coereced into this, yeah , its unjust, and you know what , one could find out who is responsible and hold him accountable, but to go from that to the accusations above , or at least some of them , that I can't accept. and no , youre not undervaluing it too much , in general Id say racism towards blacks is not that different from the racism you get in the US , albeit the good and bad of it are in different places. lastly, if youre talking about family and such , its not my entire family , some were directly from the Middle East (we are talking about the last 100 years of course), or rather North Africa , some were not, though I think that even on that side, my grandfather might have been a descendent of Sfaradim who escaped from Spain. but in relation to that incident, Im not saying its true or not true, Im saying a bunch of activists are saying one thing, the government inquiry into the matter said another, between those 2 the truth is there. btw I do prefer the latter terms, hasbara sounds rather....defensive, almost like you owe somebody something.

Asking the state not to perform not to perform birth control on the unwilling is asking for perfection to you?

no necessarily in this instance. , but in general everytime I hear bad news you always hear this kind of arguement, almost as if one expects more from us than he does from others, and I honestly don't think people would have cared as much if it was in another country.
#102 Posted by themajormayor (24298 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="themajormayor"] They don't need to wonder. It is hated because it is the only Jewish state. What race are the Jewish people trying to eliminate exactly?ROFLCOPTER603

the aliens from the planet Krypton , I mean seriously, we did such a through job that there are almost none left now. some people sadly need their fix of "lets blame the Jews for something silly today"

Wait, didn't I specifically say that Israelis give Jews a bad name? I have nothing against Jews- they've been discriminated against since the beginning. And they're (the Israelis, not Jews) sterilizing Ethiopians- which is a specific nationality, and maybe even "race". The Israeli government perverts Judaism, much like their enemies pervert Islam.

It wasn't you that said it, but being the only Jewish state does not give them a blank check to do whatever they want. Any state based on a singular religion, be it Islam, Christianity, or Judaism is a poor idea. Naturally it's going to breed racism and prejudice. Their flag is the star of david, for Yahweh's sake. Their foreign policy and entire country is based entirely on one religion. Any minorites are automatically alienated. In this case, they're even sterlized.

Israel is not based on a single religion.

Sweden's (most secular country in the world pretty much) flag is a cross.

It is not.

In this context they are not a minority and are not sterilized.

#103 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="ROFLCOPTER603"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] the aliens from the planet Krypton , I mean seriously, we did such a through job that there are almost none left now. some people sadly need their fix of "lets blame the Jews for something silly today"themajormayor

Wait, didn't I specifically say that Israelis give Jews a bad name? I have nothing against Jews- they've been discriminated against since the beginning. And they're (the Israelis, not Jews) sterilizing Ethiopians- which is a specific nationality, and maybe even "race". The Israeli government perverts Judaism, much like their enemies pervert Islam.

It wasn't you that said it, but being the only Jewish state does not give them a blank check to do whatever they want. Any state based on a singular religion, be it Islam, Christianity, or Judaism is a poor idea. Naturally it's going to breed racism and prejudice. Their flag is the star of david, for Yahweh's sake. Their foreign policy and entire country is based entirely on one religion. Any minorites are automatically alienated. In this case, they're even sterlized.

Israel is not based on a single religion.

Sweden's (most secular country in the world pretty much) flag is a cross.

It is not.

In this context they are not a minority and are not sterilized.

some people don't seem understand that in this context, Jewish state isn't the same as Islamic Repubic, its more like Russian Federation , or Czech Republic. thing about the religious aspect is that you can't completly seperate it from the Jews, its what keeps the nation , so to speak , united (otherwise we would have disappeared just like alot of peoples 3000+ years ago.
#104 Posted by themajormayor (24298 posts) -
[QUOTE="thebest31406"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="pie-junior"]

*The nazi comparisons are obvious hyperboles, cosndiering the irony involved in the 'jewish' state participating in administrated eugenics.

*They 'brought' them in- because they had to, they coerced contraceptives- because they didnt want to . That was my point. An administrative authority depends on statistical data to measure success- how far we're managed to promote education; how far we've managed to promote emplyment. etc. the clerks and elected officials in the executive branches have no motivation to take in uneducated destitute people into society. They fvck up their statistics- and prevent reelection or job advancement and effort recognition. (unless i'm seriously undervaluing the extents of the racial factors involved)

*The acts are obviously illegal under israeli law. But the policies we're, apparently, part of the 'official' acting of administrative discretion. That is institutional racism- public institutions can still break the law.

*I thought (as an israeli from middle-eastern origins) that you'd recognize the extreme example I gave in the form of the abducted Yemenis- guess not. I don't feel like arguing this point, but I think it's been substantiated enough that the accusations were pretty accurate.

wheter they are hyperboles or not, its pretty damn insulting, as far as I see it , its a cheap insult and you know why. I also find it odd how everyone expects perfection, it sounds like "oh the Jews suffered , so they should be nice to everybody" , as though we have to learn lessons from it. thats what Im getting from it anyways. what you said is obvious , and could indeed account for this (even if people are not looking at it in the context its happening, or the details of it), and Ive said it before, if somebody was coereced into this, yeah , its unjust, and you know what , one could find out who is responsible and hold him accountable, but to go from that to the accusations above , or at least some of them , that I can't accept. and no , youre not undervaluing it too much , in general Id say racism towards blacks is not that different from the racism you get in the US , albeit the good and bad of it are in different places. lastly, if youre talking about family and such , its not my entire family , some were directly from the Middle East (we are talking about the last 100 years of course), or rather North Africa , some were not, though I think that even on that side, my grandfather might have been a descendent of Sfaradim who escaped from Spain. but in relation to that incident, Im not saying its true or not true, Im saying a bunch of activists are saying one thing, the government inquiry into the matter said another, between those 2 the truth is there. btw I do prefer the latter terms, hasbara sounds rather....defensive, almost like you owe somebody something.

Asking the state not to perform not to perform birth control on the unwilling is asking for perfection to you?

Sweden is regarded as perfect around here. Performed sterilazation of Romas. No one cares. Cause Jews didn't do it.
#105 Posted by thebest31406 (3586 posts) -
[QUOTE="thebest31406"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] wheter they are hyperboles or not, its pretty damn insulting, as far as I see it , its a cheap insult and you know why. I also find it odd how everyone expects perfection, it sounds like "oh the Jews suffered , so they should be nice to everybody" , as though we have to learn lessons from it. thats what Im getting from it anyways. what you said is obvious , and could indeed account for this (even if people are not looking at it in the context its happening, or the details of it), and Ive said it before, if somebody was coereced into this, yeah , its unjust, and you know what , one could find out who is responsible and hold him accountable, but to go from that to the accusations above , or at least some of them , that I can't accept. and no , youre not undervaluing it too much , in general Id say racism towards blacks is not that different from the racism you get in the US , albeit the good and bad of it are in different places. lastly, if youre talking about family and such , its not my entire family , some were directly from the Middle East (we are talking about the last 100 years of course), or rather North Africa , some were not, though I think that even on that side, my grandfather might have been a descendent of Sfaradim who escaped from Spain. but in relation to that incident, Im not saying its true or not true, Im saying a bunch of activists are saying one thing, the government inquiry into the matter said another, between those 2 the truth is there. btw I do prefer the latter terms, hasbara sounds rather....defensive, almost like you owe somebody something.Darkman2007
Asking the state not to perform not to perform birth control on the unwilling is asking for perfection to you?

no necessarily in this instance. , but in general everytime I hear bad news you always hear this kind of arguement, almost as if one expects more from us than he does from others, and I honestly don't think people would have cared as much if it was in another country.

Well the same type of thing has been happening in North Carolina, yet no one says anything...
#106 Posted by thebest31406 (3586 posts) -
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="thebest31406"] Asking the state not to perform not to perform birth control on the unwilling is asking for perfection to you?thebest31406
no necessarily in this instance. , but in general everytime I hear bad news you always hear this kind of arguement, almost as if one expects more from us than he does from others, and I honestly don't think people would have cared as much if it was in another country.

Well the same type of thing has been happening in North Carolina, yet no one says anything...

same with sweden.
#107 Posted by themajormayor (24298 posts) -
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="thebest31406"] Asking the state not to perform not to perform birth control on the unwilling is asking for perfection to you?thebest31406
no necessarily in this instance. , but in general everytime I hear bad news you always hear this kind of arguement, almost as if one expects more from us than he does from others, and I honestly don't think people would have cared as much if it was in another country.

Well the same type of thing has been happening in North Carolina, yet no one says anything...

Is North Carolina a Jewish state?
#108 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="thebest31406"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] wheter they are hyperboles or not, its pretty damn insulting, as far as I see it , its a cheap insult and you know why. I also find it odd how everyone expects perfection, it sounds like "oh the Jews suffered , so they should be nice to everybody" , as though we have to learn lessons from it. thats what Im getting from it anyways. what you said is obvious , and could indeed account for this (even if people are not looking at it in the context its happening, or the details of it), and Ive said it before, if somebody was coereced into this, yeah , its unjust, and you know what , one could find out who is responsible and hold him accountable, but to go from that to the accusations above , or at least some of them , that I can't accept. and no , youre not undervaluing it too much , in general Id say racism towards blacks is not that different from the racism you get in the US , albeit the good and bad of it are in different places. lastly, if youre talking about family and such , its not my entire family , some were directly from the Middle East (we are talking about the last 100 years of course), or rather North Africa , some were not, though I think that even on that side, my grandfather might have been a descendent of Sfaradim who escaped from Spain. but in relation to that incident, Im not saying its true or not true, Im saying a bunch of activists are saying one thing, the government inquiry into the matter said another, between those 2 the truth is there. btw I do prefer the latter terms, hasbara sounds rather....defensive, almost like you owe somebody something.themajormayor
Asking the state not to perform not to perform birth control on the unwilling is asking for perfection to you?

Sweden is regarded as perfect around here. Performed sterilazation of Romas. No one cares. Cause Jews didn't do it.

or maybe because in Sweden nobody goes and shouts about it to the foreign press, unless there is a Swedish version of Haaretz? :P seriously, Haaretz to the Israeli left is like Fox News to the American right,

I would suspect its similar regarding the treatment of illigal immigrants , crime and deportations happen in every country , but its only when Israel started deporting some that people went berserk (along with the usual holocaust references)

#109 Posted by BossPerson (9124 posts) -

they should do this to the arabs in Israel too. Lonelynight
lol they should do this to the fifth column of malaysian society as well

#110 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Lonelynight"]they should do this to the arabs in Israel too. BossPerson

lol they should do this to the fifth column of malaysian society as well

in all seriousness though , the birth rate of the Arabs in Israel is dropping, Its close to the Jewish rate, heck the Christian rates are the lowest in the country. Id suspect its education, and to some extent women having more choice (at least on paper, wheter the social norms in their towns allows them is something else)
#111 Posted by NEWMAHAY (3808 posts) -
Well, this is pretty horrible to hear. Being going out for 10 years? That is pretty outrageous. Its the new millennium and to have things like this happen is just depressing.
#112 Posted by kingkong0124 (8329 posts) -

lol, please cut the crap , when you say Israel , you mean Jews, its a Jewish state, the majority of its people are Jews, its the Jews, end of story, funny how some people will try to hide their feelings like that, simply because they are not politically correct, it would be like saying "I have no problems with Arabs, but damn I hate those Iraqis" , its about as stupid as it gets, if youre going to hate, at least be honest about it. and no , you don't have the right to tell me or any other Jew who perverts Judaism or who is a Jew, youre not Jewish , have little knowledge of it , so really your opinion on this is worthless , but ? Darkman2007

often times "I hate Israelis" is just a nice way of saying "I hate Jews",. This is obviously not always the case though.

#113 Posted by MrPraline (21331 posts) -

[QUOTE="Lonelynight"]they should do this to the arabs in Israel too. BossPerson

lol they should do this to the fifth column of malaysian society as well

lol
#114 Posted by Aljosa23 (25980 posts) -

lol, please cut the crap , when you say Israel , you mean Jews, its a Jewish state, the majority of its people are Jews, its the Jews, end of story, funny how some people will try to hide their feelings like that, simply because they are not politically correct, it would be like saying "I have no problems with Arabs, but damn I hate those Iraqis" , its about as stupid as it gets, if youre going to hate, at least be honest about it. Darkman2007
I don't really think you're being fair here. When someone says "Israel" the chances are they're talking about the government and not all of the citizens. Furthermore, the example you gave is silly since things like regional specific grudges exist. If someone is British or Irish and has a beef with Scottish people for some reason, if they say they dislike Scots that doesn't translate into them hating white people.

#115 Posted by kingkong0124 (8329 posts) -

I don't really think you're being fair here. When someone says "Israel" the chances are they're talking about the government and not all of the citizens. Furthermore, the example you gave is silly since things like regional specific grudges exist. If someone is British or Irish and has a beef with Scottish people for some reason, if they say they dislike Scots that doesn't translate into them hating white people.

Aljosa23

You made some good points. However, many of these Israel hating Jew lovers are also self proclaimed anti-Zionists. Anti Zionism has links to racism...

#116 Posted by DroidPhysX (17093 posts) -
As a man with jewish roots, I think Israeli jews are being douchebags
#117 Posted by Aljosa23 (25980 posts) -

You made some good points. However, many of these Israel hating Jew lovers are also self proclaimed anti-Zionists. Anti Zionism has links to racism...

kingkong0124

That's a stretch too. Sure it has links but Germans also have links to Nazis. You're not gonna assume all Germans are Nazis just because all Nazis are German.

#118 Posted by kingkong0124 (8329 posts) -
As a man with jewish roots, I think Israeli jews are being douchebags DroidPhysX
what about Palestinian Muslims? You seem to be quiet about them...
#119 Posted by DroidPhysX (17093 posts) -
[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]As a man with jewish roots, I think Israeli jews are being douchebags kingkong0124
what about Palestinian Muslims? You seem to be quiet about them...

they're being cvnts as well
#120 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]lol, please cut the crap , when you say Israel , you mean Jews, its a Jewish state, the majority of its people are Jews, its the Jews, end of story, funny how some people will try to hide their feelings like that, simply because they are not politically correct, it would be like saying "I have no problems with Arabs, but damn I hate those Iraqis" , its about as stupid as it gets, if youre going to hate, at least be honest about it. Aljosa23

I don't really think you're being fair here. When someone says "Israel" the chances are they're talking about the government and not all of the citizens. Furthermore, the example you gave is silly since things like regional specific grudges exist. If someone is British or Irish and has a beef with Scottish people for some reason, if they say they dislike Scots that doesn't translate into them hating white people.

yeah , and at least they are honest about it, I would rather the haters stopped hiding and actually said what they think , instead of this attempt to try and seperate Israel , or Israelies from Jews. besides the comment I was responding to specifically said Israelies, not Israel
#121 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -
As a man with jewish roots, I think Israeli jews are being douchebags DroidPhysX
don't worry, the feeling is mutual besides, what exactly are your Jewish roots?
#123 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

You made some good points. However, many of these Israel hating Jew lovers are also self proclaimed anti-Zionists. Anti Zionism has links to racism...

Aljosa23

That's a stretch too. Sure it has links but Germans also have links to Nazis. You're not gonna assume all Germans are Nazis just because all Nazis are German.

Im afraid it doesn't really work that way, yeah , Im sure not every "Anti Zionist" is a raving Jew hater, every Jew hater is going to be an Anti Zionist, so wheter they like it or not, they are going to be associated with people who are motivated by haterd , and some people will use hatred of Israel as a cover for Jew hatred (its usually quite obvious)

using politics as a cover to hate someone is not crazy, some far right politicians like Geert Wilders say they love Israel , though you have to wonder if thats because he dislikes Muslims (if it is, he would find Israel a nightmare, seriously , 14% Muslim)

the other thing is that Anti Zionism by defenition is anti nationalism against a specific people , and unless you are at war with those people , you could certainly say its discrimination especially if youre willing to stand for the national rights of other people.

#124 Posted by MrPraline (21331 posts) -
[QUOTE="kingkong0124"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]As a man with jewish roots, I think Israeli jews are being douchebags DroidPhysX
what about Palestinian Muslims? You seem to be quiet about them...

they're being cvnts as well

#125 Posted by MrPraline (21331 posts) -
except for my bro gaza ali
#126 Posted by themajormayor (24298 posts) -

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

You made some good points. However, many of these Israel hating Jew lovers are also self proclaimed anti-Zionists. Anti Zionism has links to racism...

Aljosa23

That's a stretch too. Sure it has links but Germans also have links to Nazis. You're not gonna assume all Germans are Nazis just because all Nazis are German.

Anti-zionism is by definition pretty much racism though.
#127 Posted by themajormayor (24298 posts) -
As a man with jewish roots, I think Israeli jews are being douchebags DroidPhysX
I met them and they were not douchebags. Very nice people.
#128 Posted by BossPerson (9124 posts) -
[QUOTE="Aljosa23"]

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

You made some good points. However, many of these Israel hating Jew lovers are also self proclaimed anti-Zionists. Anti Zionism has links to racism...

themajormayor

That's a stretch too. Sure it has links but Germans also have links to Nazis. You're not gonna assume all Germans are Nazis just because all Nazis are German.

Anti-zionism is by definition pretty much racism though.

not completely. can you blame palestinians for being anti-zionist? not that im anti zionist
#129 Posted by themajormayor (24298 posts) -
[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="Aljosa23"]That's a stretch too. Sure it has links but Germans also have links to Nazis. You're not gonna assume all Germans are Nazis just because all Nazis are German.BossPerson
Anti-zionism is by definition pretty much racism though.

not completely. can you blame palestinians for being anti-zionist? not that im anti zionist

Not completely but pretty much. And "can't blame them" is really not a good reason.
#130 Posted by BossPerson (9124 posts) -
[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="themajormayor"] Anti-zionism is by definition pretty much racism though.

not completely. can you blame palestinians for being anti-zionist? not that im anti zionist

Not completely but pretty much. And "can't blame them" is really not a good reason.

well it is sometimes. I mean palestinians being racist against israelis/jews is pretty much expected. You cant really blame them for it just like you cant blame Irish people in the early 20th century and before for hating english people. basically you have to expect humans to act like humans
#131 Posted by themajormayor (24298 posts) -
[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]not completely. can you blame palestinians for being anti-zionist? not that im anti zionistBossPerson
Not completely but pretty much. And "can't blame them" is really not a good reason.

well it is sometimes. I mean palestinians being racist against israelis/jews is pretty much expected. You cant really blame them for it just like you cant blame Irish people in the early 20th century and before for hating english people. basically you have to expect humans to act like humans

Yeah but that still doesn't make anti-zionism any less racist.
#132 Posted by BossPerson (9124 posts) -
[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="themajormayor"] Not completely but pretty much. And "can't blame them" is really not a good reason.

well it is sometimes. I mean palestinians being racist against israelis/jews is pretty much expected. You cant really blame them for it just like you cant blame Irish people in the early 20th century and before for hating english people. basically you have to expect humans to act like humans

Yeah but that still doesn't make anti-zionism any less racist.

well its racist for different people. Lets not forget zionism exists at the expense of a certain people
#133 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="Aljosa23"]That's a stretch too. Sure it has links but Germans also have links to Nazis. You're not gonna assume all Germans are Nazis just because all Nazis are German.BossPerson
Anti-zionism is by definition pretty much racism though.

not completely. can you blame palestinians for being anti-zionist? not that im anti zionist

well personally I can't blame them , because yes, they are affected by it in a big way, and they do fit into the defenition of being at war ( a very strange war , but one could argue its a war)

on the other hand, Europeans, Americans, etc really don't have that excuse, if they are claiming to be Anti Zionist , while on the other hand cheering the Palestinians and their national rights, then yeah , its hypocritical and discriminatory (and Im not even getting into past events)

and because its politicaly incorrect to be racist, I think alot of supposed Anti Zionists are just Jew haters, its usually quite obvious (heck I think Ive read a comment from a Hamas spokesperson saying Hamas do not hate Jews, something we both know is nonsense)

#134 Posted by BossPerson (9124 posts) -

[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="themajormayor"] Anti-zionism is by definition pretty much racism though. Darkman2007

not completely. can you blame palestinians for being anti-zionist? not that im anti zionist

well personally I can't blame them , because yes, they are affected by it in a big way, and they do fit into the defenition of being at war ( a very strange war , but one could argue its a war)

on the other hand, Europeans, Americans, etc really don't have that excuse, if they are claiming to be Anti Zionist , while on the other hand cheering the Palestinians and their national rights, then yeah , its hypocritical and discriminatory (and Im not even getting into past events)

and because its politicaly incorrect to be racist, I think alot of supposed Anti Zionists are just Jew haters, its usually quite obvious (heck I think Ive read a comment from a Hamas spokesperson saying Hamas do not hate Jews, something we both know is nonsense)

yea i agree with this I was just trying to differentiate racism or perceived racism among different groups. They're reasons for being anti-zionist differ.

I mean like I always say, you cant blame people for behaving like people.

#135 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]not completely. can you blame palestinians for being anti-zionist? not that im anti zionistBossPerson

well personally I can't blame them , because yes, they are affected by it in a big way, and they do fit into the defenition of being at war ( a very strange war , but one could argue its a war)

on the other hand, Europeans, Americans, etc really don't have that excuse, if they are claiming to be Anti Zionist , while on the other hand cheering the Palestinians and their national rights, then yeah , its hypocritical and discriminatory (and Im not even getting into past events)

and because its politicaly incorrect to be racist, I think alot of supposed Anti Zionists are just Jew haters, its usually quite obvious (heck I think Ive read a comment from a Hamas spokesperson saying Hamas do not hate Jews, something we both know is nonsense)

yea i agree with this I was just trying to differentiate racism or perceived racism among different groups. They're reasons for being anti-zionist differ.

I mean like I always say, you cant blame people for behaving like people.

like I said I can't blame them entirely , although one thing I can't understand is the claim one occasionally hears from the PA or Hamas that the Jews have never been in the region (correct me on this, but I was sure even that is mentioned in the Quran , or in the bible for the Christians). I think in the west there is another element to it besides the Jew hatred, and its probably just a general anti westernism , and since Israel is typically associated with the west in general and the US in particular (even if culturally its on the periphery of the western world, not the centre of it) , they find it easy to attack , its a much smaller country. that general anti westernism is probably part of the reason you often see some on the far left ally with the worst kind of Islamists or dictators , even if the society each desires has the other one hanging from a tree.
#136 Posted by BossPerson (9124 posts) -
[QUOTE="BossPerson"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

well personally I can't blame them , because yes, they are affected by it in a big way, and they do fit into the defenition of being at war ( a very strange war , but one could argue its a war)

on the other hand, Europeans, Americans, etc really don't have that excuse, if they are claiming to be Anti Zionist , while on the other hand cheering the Palestinians and their national rights, then yeah , its hypocritical and discriminatory (and Im not even getting into past events)

and because its politicaly incorrect to be racist, I think alot of supposed Anti Zionists are just Jew haters, its usually quite obvious (heck I think Ive read a comment from a Hamas spokesperson saying Hamas do not hate Jews, something we both know is nonsense)

Darkman2007

yea i agree with this I was just trying to differentiate racism or perceived racism among different groups. They're reasons for being anti-zionist differ.

I mean like I always say, you cant blame people for behaving like people.

like I said I can't blame them entirely , although one thing I can't understand is the claim one occasionally hears from the PA or Hamas that the Jews have never been in the region (correct me on this, but I was sure even that is mentioned in the Quran , or in the bible for the Christians). I think in the west there is another element to it besides the Jew hatred, and its probably just a general anti westernism , and since Israel is typically associated with the west in general and the US in particular (even if culturally its on the periphery of the western world, not the centre of it) , they find it easy to attack , its a much smaller country. that general anti westernism is probably part of the reason you often see some on the far left ally with the worst kind of Islamists or dictators , even if the society each desires has the other one hanging from a tree.

yea, id say among many of the left there's a lot of cognitive dissonance/ dillusions. look at that clown george galloway he's so obsessed with being anti-imperalist because of his irish background and hatred of the british empire (somewhat justified) that he's associated anyone who fights the west in any manner as being some sort of freedom fighter fighting against western imperialism. blowing up pizza parlors in tel aviv has all of a sudden become struggling for human rights. Never mind that those doing the blowing up are usually religious fanatics of the extreme right.
#137 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]yea i agree with this I was just trying to differentiate racism or perceived racism among different groups. They're reasons for being anti-zionist differ.

I mean like I always say, you cant blame people for behaving like people.

BossPerson
like I said I can't blame them entirely , although one thing I can't understand is the claim one occasionally hears from the PA or Hamas that the Jews have never been in the region (correct me on this, but I was sure even that is mentioned in the Quran , or in the bible for the Christians). I think in the west there is another element to it besides the Jew hatred, and its probably just a general anti westernism , and since Israel is typically associated with the west in general and the US in particular (even if culturally its on the periphery of the western world, not the centre of it) , they find it easy to attack , its a much smaller country. that general anti westernism is probably part of the reason you often see some on the far left ally with the worst kind of Islamists or dictators , even if the society each desires has the other one hanging from a tree.

yea, id say among many of the left there's a lot of cognitive dissonance/ dillusions. look at that clown george galloway he's so obsessed with being anti-imperalist because of his irish background and hatred of the british empire (somewhat justified) that he's associated anyone who fights the west in any manner as being some sort of freedom fighter fighting against western imperialism. blowing up pizza parlors in tel aviv has all of a sudden become struggling for human rights. Never mind that those doing the blowing up are usually religious fanatics of the extreme right.

its somewhat comical really, its like a guy who cheers his executioners there are others like that as well , its really quite hilarious, Ive found this example funny. www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFp_6J0e92Q&feature=player_embedded go to 16:15, and note what the woman (the woman mysteriously got some award in Germany recently) says about Hamas and Hezbollah . btw that woman is also apparently a feminist, making her comment all the more hilarious.
#138 Posted by BossPerson (9124 posts) -

rolf

"hezbollah and hamas as progresssive leftists"

I wonder what these progressive lefitsts think about womens rights and apostacy

this is the type of bullsh*t that has made me stop identifying with myself as a leftist or a liberal or a centrist or anything

There's too many idiots everywhere

#139 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

rolf

"hezbollah and hamas as progresssive leftists"

I wonder what these progressive lefitsts think about womens rights and apostacy

this is the type of bullsh*t that has made me stop identifying with myself as a leftist or a liberal or a centrist or anything

There's too many idiots everywhere

BossPerson
well. they are certainly trying to progress somewhere, Im just not sure its a place she wants to be in . although I suppose, what does she care, she won't have to live in a Hezbollah or Hamas run state. funny enough I stopped identifying myself with the conventional right (albeit normal right) , exactly because of the likes of Fox News, and the occasional nutcases that crawl from under the floorboards, well that and family (if you had a Kahanist wannabe in your close family, you would understand)
#140 Posted by Ace6301 (21389 posts) -
[QUOTE="BossPerson"]

rolf

"hezbollah and hamas as progresssive leftists"

I wonder what these progressive lefitsts think about womens rights and apostacy

this is the type of bullsh*t that has made me stop identifying with myself as a leftist or a liberal or a centrist or anything

There's too many idiots everywhere

Darkman2007
well. they are certainly trying to progress somewhere, Im just not sure its a place she wants to be in . although I suppose, what does she care, she won't have to live in a Hezbollah or Hamas run state. funny enough I stopped identifying myself with the conventional right (albeit normal right) , exactly because of the likes of Fox News, and the occasional nutcases that crawl from under the floorboards, well that and family (if you had a Kahanist wannabe in your close family, you would understand)

It's kind of impressive that the right has gone so nutso as of late that no one even wants to be on the same political spectrum as them anymore. I agree though BossPerson, while I still identify as a leftist and a liberal I think the amount of hate and misinformation as to what that is and what it encompasses is pretty stupid at this point. Every bloody thing that was ever bad gets called liberal or leftist by these people and everything good gets called conservative or rightist. Recently there was some rubbish about MLK being a conservative when he was very obviously not.
#141 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]

rolf

"hezbollah and hamas as progresssive leftists"

I wonder what these progressive lefitsts think about womens rights and apostacy

this is the type of bullsh*t that has made me stop identifying with myself as a leftist or a liberal or a centrist or anything

There's too many idiots everywhere

Ace6301
well. they are certainly trying to progress somewhere, Im just not sure its a place she wants to be in . although I suppose, what does she care, she won't have to live in a Hezbollah or Hamas run state. funny enough I stopped identifying myself with the conventional right (albeit normal right) , exactly because of the likes of Fox News, and the occasional nutcases that crawl from under the floorboards, well that and family (if you had a Kahanist wannabe in your close family, you would understand)

It's kind of impressive that the right has gone so nutso as of late that no one even wants to be on the same political spectrum as them anymore. I agree though BossPerson, while I still identify as a leftist and a liberal I think the amount of hate and misinformation as to what that is and what it encompasses is pretty stupid at this point. Every bloody thing that was ever bad gets called liberal or leftist by these people and everything good gets called conservative or rightist. Recently there was some rubbish about MLK being a conservative when he was very obviously not.

well , frankly its more about the fact that there are nutcases on both the left and right, that frankly make you not want to associate with either. as for MLK , I wonder, because one can be conservative on some issues, and progressive on some others. did he ever give an opinion on gay marriage for instance? I was sure he was in the Church
#142 Posted by BossPerson (9124 posts) -
[QUOTE="BossPerson"]

rolf

"hezbollah and hamas as progresssive leftists"

I wonder what these progressive lefitsts think about womens rights and apostacy

this is the type of bullsh*t that has made me stop identifying with myself as a leftist or a liberal or a centrist or anything

There's too many idiots everywhere

Darkman2007
well. they are certainly trying to progress somewhere, Im just not sure its a place she wants to be in . although I suppose, what does she care, she won't have to live in a Hezbollah or Hamas run state. funny enough I stopped identifying myself with the conventional right (albeit normal right) , exactly because of the likes of Fox News, and the occasional nutcases that crawl from under the floorboards, well that and family (if you had a Kahanist wannabe in your close family, you would understand)

yea, although there's another thing as well. Maybe you experience the same thing as well since your in intl relations/poli sci. The more i become interested in political analysis and such the less I have an opinion. When I argue with my friends I spend 95% of my time poking holes in their arguments no matter what side their on. When I get asked "wjhat do you think about something" I honestly can say I have no opinion personally since I see the holes in every argument, I havent sat down to form an alternative that satisfies me.
#143 Posted by Ace6301 (21389 posts) -
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] well. they are certainly trying to progress somewhere, Im just not sure its a place she wants to be in . although I suppose, what does she care, she won't have to live in a Hezbollah or Hamas run state. funny enough I stopped identifying myself with the conventional right (albeit normal right) , exactly because of the likes of Fox News, and the occasional nutcases that crawl from under the floorboards, well that and family (if you had a Kahanist wannabe in your close family, you would understand)

It's kind of impressive that the right has gone so nutso as of late that no one even wants to be on the same political spectrum as them anymore. I agree though BossPerson, while I still identify as a leftist and a liberal I think the amount of hate and misinformation as to what that is and what it encompasses is pretty stupid at this point. Every bloody thing that was ever bad gets called liberal or leftist by these people and everything good gets called conservative or rightist. Recently there was some rubbish about MLK being a conservative when he was very obviously not.

well , frankly its more about the fact that there are nutcases on both the left and right, that frankly make you not want to associate with either. as for MLK , I wonder, because one can be conservative on some issues, and progressive on some others. did he ever give an opinion on gay marriage for instance? I was sure he was in the Church

So far as I could find he never really had any opinion on gay marriage on public record. There was one quote from him in the 50's that shows he thoughts it was not a natural inclination but saying someone was liberal or conservative based on their stance of gay marriage in the 1950s is...well inaccurate given the culture at the time. He was however a democratic socialist, openly stated by himself and obviously he rejected the conservative view on race at the time. I think in North America at least there is a very vocal extreme right crowd whereas due to the cold war there is really very little extreme left voice. In the US there is a definite vacuum on the right side of the political spectrum and even moderate views at this point are being pinned as socialist or extreme liberalism.
#144 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]

rolf

"hezbollah and hamas as progresssive leftists"

I wonder what these progressive lefitsts think about womens rights and apostacy

this is the type of bullsh*t that has made me stop identifying with myself as a leftist or a liberal or a centrist or anything

There's too many idiots everywhere

BossPerson
well. they are certainly trying to progress somewhere, Im just not sure its a place she wants to be in . although I suppose, what does she care, she won't have to live in a Hezbollah or Hamas run state. funny enough I stopped identifying myself with the conventional right (albeit normal right) , exactly because of the likes of Fox News, and the occasional nutcases that crawl from under the floorboards, well that and family (if you had a Kahanist wannabe in your close family, you would understand)

yea, although there's another thing as well. Maybe you experience the same thing as well since your in intl relations/poli sci. The more i become interested in political analysis and such the less I have an opinion. When I argue with my friends I spend 95% of my time poking holes in their arguments no matter what side their on. When I get asked "wjhat do you think about something" I honestly can say I have no opinion personally since I see the holes in every argument, I havent sat down to form an alternative that satisfies me.

well , studying politics is also getting a larger perspective on things, its not necessarily about what you learn in the course, its what you don't learn. it does to some extent give you the ability to think a bit and see the flaws in alot of ideologies. the thing I learnt was not to look at every situation though my cultural prism necessarily, one has to know about the place he is studying, or else the politics of the place don't make any sense. the revolts in the Arab world were an example of that,
#145 Posted by BossPerson (9124 posts) -
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] the revolts in the Arab world were an example of that,

how so?
#146 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -
[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Ace6301"] It's kind of impressive that the right has gone so nutso as of late that no one even wants to be on the same political spectrum as them anymore. I agree though BossPerson, while I still identify as a leftist and a liberal I think the amount of hate and misinformation as to what that is and what it encompasses is pretty stupid at this point. Every bloody thing that was ever bad gets called liberal or leftist by these people and everything good gets called conservative or rightist. Recently there was some rubbish about MLK being a conservative when he was very obviously not.

well , frankly its more about the fact that there are nutcases on both the left and right, that frankly make you not want to associate with either. as for MLK , I wonder, because one can be conservative on some issues, and progressive on some others. did he ever give an opinion on gay marriage for instance? I was sure he was in the Church

So far as I could find he never really had any opinion on gay marriage on public record. There was one quote from him in the 50's that shows he thoughts it was not a natural inclination but saying someone was liberal or conservative based on their stance of gay marriage in the 1950s is...well inaccurate given the culture at the time. He was however a democratic socialist, openly stated by himself and obviously he rejected the conservative view on race at the time.

so what one can say is that in his time , he was progressive, Ive seen examples of this before, this hijacking of dead figures for political ends.
#147 Posted by mrbojangles25 (32002 posts) -

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

They should know better than to do this, the Nazis did eugenics to them in the past, why would they do the same to others? But this is not common practice in Israel so keep that in mind, and yes they are in the wrong and should be brought to trial for this.

MrPraline

lol

out of curiosity, why is this argument funny?

It is a pretty damn accurate observation.

#148 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -
[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] the revolts in the Arab world were an example of that,

how so?

because alot of people in the west saw people protesting, and assumed that the next step was liberal democracy, the reason being was that in their eyes, that was the logical thing to do , that is what they would want and do. problem of course , is that some of that is fantasy. I mean , we both know the social and political realities don't really allow for that, the debates between the conservatives and liberals in the Arab world are of a different nature (in the west the debate is over wheter gays have a right to marry, in alot of the Middle East, its wheter gays have a right to live). I mean , I don't think there is even a similar thing to the Muslim brotherhood in the west (certainly nothing that is as popular) there is even arguably a misunderstanding of terms, in alot of the Middle East, when people say they want freedom , it usually means they want freedom from Mubarak/Gadaffi/Assad/Abdullah, what comes after is the question.
#149 Posted by Obviously_Right (5320 posts) -

Ugh...Israel...

#150 Posted by BossPerson (9124 posts) -
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] the revolts in the Arab world were an example of that,

how so?

because alot of people in the west saw people protesting, and assumed that the next step was liberal democracy, the reason being was that in their eyes, that was the logical thing to do , that is what they would want and do. problem of course , is that some of that is fantasy. I mean , we both know the social and political realities don't really allow for that, the debates between the conservatives and liberals in the Arab world are of a different nature (in the west the debate is over wheter gays have a right to marry, in alot of the Middle East, its wheter gays have a right to live). I mean , I don't think there is even a similar thing to the Muslim brotherhood in the west (certainly nothing that is as popular) there is even arguably a misunderstanding of terms, in alot of the Middle East, when people say they want freedom , it usually means they want freedom from Mubarak/Gadaffi/Assad/Abdullah, what comes after is the question.

yea, I think the most crucial part of good analysis is approaching things seriously. That doesn't tend to happen when there's so much passion in a conflict or situation like the Arab Spring. You have to approach these things with an understanding of realities on the ground, not what some philosophy textbook says. You dont learn these sklls in university, thats for sure.