If some people truly believe the universe is about 6000 years old...

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

Well yes, the Bible chronicles wars and the Crucifiction of Jesus and other events that end in bloody terror, betrayaland pain. But it also has hope and stories of salvation and life. Moses getting everyone through the sea after God opened it, saving their lives is an example. AlthoughGod closed it back onto the Egyptians and killed them.

Hakkai007

How about god using genocide on a massive scale with the flood?

Or god asking Abraham to kill his own son as a test to see if he would do it.

Or what about the story of a man that offers his daughter to be raped by a group of men if they leave a customer alone.

There is incest, rape, genocide and much more in the bible.

I find it very funny when some parents are against video games because of violence when they have a bible sitting in their house that is many times more violent.

Yes, I know, I mentioned that, I just didn't go through each and every one. But there is more than just bad things as I stated before. And I agree with the statement on video games. Although some parents would argue that they are "doing" these things, which is false because it is not reality.

[QUOTE="toast_burner"]

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

Where does the Bible say how old the earth is?

Storm_Marine

Sigh....How do I explain this to you. Do you know the story of Adam and Eve?

I wouldn't say they're hicks around here, exactly. But I will say that they're the type that are fairly misinformed and don't do well to research the thing they're against.

iAtrocious

I don't think Jesus appreciates your prejudice towards country-people.

iAtrocious

[QUOTE="whitetiger3521"]

That does not prove that the prophets wrote that the earth was flat. It's even described as a circle, Go grab a piece of paper and draw a circle. Is it round? yeah it is.

Hakkai007

A circle is flat and a sphere is not....

A circle is round and a sphere is a 3D circle

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="toast_burner"]It says that the earth was created in 6 days (people being made on the 6th day). So that means civilised people and the earth are the same age, civilisation dates back roughly 6000 years.

toast_burner

Sigh....How do I explain this to you. Do you know the story of Adam and Eve?

...

That's not exactly what I'm going at....

Basically, how long was it before they had children? i.e. how long did they stay in Paradise?

Yes, I know, I mentioned that, I just didn't go through each and every one. But there is more than just bad things as I stated before. And I agree with the statement on video games. Although some parents would argue that they are "doing" these things, which is false because it is not reality.

Hatiko

Oh ok.

And yes there is some good things but most of it is pretty much common sense.

Those morals shown in the bible were usually a necessity to create a settlement.

Humans first lived in small groups that were always on the move.

Later they stay in one area and created settlements.

In order for those settlements to survive they had to go by certain rules and this became apparent to those people.

So things like stealing were forbidden.

It didn't take the bible to have these things be known.

After trial and error people can come to the best conclusion themselves.

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

But the Bible states that the earth was there before God created everything on earth "plants, animals, etc."

Hakkai007

But he did that all in 6 days so the error would be small.

"In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters." Genesis 1:1-2

We are not given the time it took from this to go to the "6 days".

[QUOTE="frostybanana"]...That couldn't be any less true. There are many Roman historians who documented the existence of Jesus Christ. You know one of the arguments of Jesus' divinity was the claim that Vergil included a prophetic passage in the Aeneid that was alluding to Jesus Christ. I believe Augustus started taking the census in the year Jesus was born as well. So his existence is very well documented. I have no idea what you're talking about.Hakkai007

Actually you are incorrect.

Please point me to a contemporary history that wrote about jesus.

I am not talking about someone having a census with a random guy that had the name Jesus.

...

That's not exactly what I'm going at....

Basically, how long was it before they had children? i.e. how long did they stay in Paradise?

Storm_Marine

I never said the method those people use to say the Earth is 600 years old makes any sense.

They usually counted back on famous figures and events though.

and yah it is hard to tell because people described in the bible could live for hundreds upon hundreds of years.

They used something like this.

http://www.clarion-call.org/extras/abraham.htm

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

Yes, I know, I mentioned that, I just didn't go through each and every one. But there is more than just bad things as I stated before. And I agree with the statement on video games. Although some parents would argue that they are "doing" these things, which is false because it is not reality.

Hakkai007

Oh ok.

And yes there is some good things but most of it is pretty much common sense.

Those morals shown in the bible were usually a necessity to create a settlement.

Humans first lived in small groups that were always on the move.

Later they stay in one area and created settlements.

In order for those settlements to survive they had to go by certain rules and this became apparent to those people.

So things like stealing were forbidden.

It didn't take the bible to have these things be known.

After trial and error people can come to the best conclusion themselves.

Well it's not even the "10 Commandments" part. Jesus did alot of acts of kindness and saved people's lives. And alot of the times the "violent" parts were punishments for wrongdoing. God is a God of mercy, but he is also a God of justice. That is just my beliefs,justto make that clear. But the Bible makes it clear too.

Excuse me? Are you disputing the existence of Jesus Christ, something that modern historians concur was documented in historical pieces from that era? You want names? Ok. Pliny the younger, Tacitus and Suetonious are probably the most well known historians to document the life of Jesus Christ. I urge you to read these things before making such an misinformed comment. The baptism, the preachings and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ are well documented and were used in conjunction with various scriptures and religious texts to create a general consensus that these are historically accurate events. I will not do your research for you. Please go and read about said events, including the accounts of modern historians to better understand what you're talking about. I dislike arguing with people who are misinformed, so before continuing any such argument, please do yourself a favor and actually research what you're talking about. It isn't smart to argue about something you obviously don't know anything about.frostybanana

There could be a Jesus but there is no contemporary historian who wrote of the Jesus described in the bible.

None of those historians you mentioned were contemporary.

Tacitus is also highly disputed and was thought that some of what he written had been altered by someone else later on.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

...

That's not exactly what I'm going at....

Basically, how long was it before they had children? i.e. how long did they stay in Paradise?

Hakkai007

I never said the method those people use to say the Earth is 600 years old makes any sense.

They usually counted back on famous figures and events though.

and yah it is hard to tell because people described in the bible could live for hundreds upon hundreds of years.

They used something like this.

"and yah it is hard to tell because people described in the bible could live for hundreds upon hundreds of years."

It's not that, but thatAdam and Eve were....I guess immortal...before the Fall and their exile from Eden. Their time spent in Paradise is unknown. Trying to come up with a timeline for this is... impossible.

"and yah it is hard to tell because people described in the bible could live for hundreds upon hundreds of years."

It's not that, but Adam and Eve were....I guess immortal...before the Fall and their exile from Eden. Trying to come up with a timeline for this is impossible.

Storm_Marine

Oops I typed 600 years....meant 6000.

But yes you're right it doesn't make sense.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="Sushiglutton"] I don't call the entire bible silly, but there are some very silly ideas if u interpret them literally at least. I don't see the point trying to find explinations to how Jesus could cure a blind, walk on water or that the earth is 6k years old. There are tons of interesting questions out there so why bother with things that someone obv made up thousands of years ago?toast_burner

Where does the Bible say how old the earth is?

Well, there are places in the Bible where we do not know how long it has been. Another area to mention is what the Hebrew word "Yom" used to Genesis to describe the creation period means. It's gets much too complex when we try and use the Bible to determine how old the Earth is. There are just too many things to take into consideration. I'm a Christian, have been more 20 years. I turn to the Bible for many answers and I will even say, if you want to find a more accurate representation of the age of the Earth, the answer in not in the Bible; use Science instead for that. Personally, I love both the scriptures and Science.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

"and yah it is hard to tell because people described in the bible could live for hundreds upon hundreds of years."

It's not that, but Adam and Eve were....I guess immortal...before the Fall and their exile from Eden. Trying to come up with a timeline for this is impossible.

Hakkai007

Oops I typed 600 years....meant 6000.

But yes you're right it doesn't make sense.

Yeah I declined making a joke about that.

How do they explain supernovas?? I mean we have seen a star going through that process... the light from that process takes millions/billions of years to reach us.... the universe is older than 6000 years.

Infinite_Access

Also Pliny made no specific mention of Jesus.

As for Seutonius, there's no indication he was referring to Jesus. Crestus was a common name. So, it's not logical to assume it was a corruption of Christ. Even if it was, Christ is a Greek translation of messiah. There were any number of would be messiahs inciting rebellion among the Jews.

[QUOTE="Infinite_Access"]

How do they explain supernovas?? I mean we have seen a star going through that process... the light from that process takes millions/billions of years to reach us.... the universe is older than 6000 years.

F1_2004

[QUOTE="frostybanana"]Excuse me? Are you disputing the existence of Jesus Christ, something that modern historians concur was documented in historical pieces from that era? You want names? Ok. Pliny the younger, Tacitus and Suetonious are probably the most well known historians to document the life of Jesus Christ. I urge you to read these things before making such an misinformed comment. The baptism, the preachings and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ are well documented and were used in conjunction with various scriptures and religious texts to create a general consensus that these are historically accurate events. I will not do your research for you. Please go and read about said events, including the accounts of modern historians to better understand what you're talking about. I dislike arguing with people who are misinformed, so before continuing any such argument, please do yourself a favor and actually research what you're talking about. It isn't smart to argue about something you obviously don't know anything about.Hakkai007

There could be a Jesus but there is no contemporary historian who wrote of the Jesus described in the bible.

None of those historians you mentioned were contemporary.

Tacitus is also highly disputed and was thought that some of what he written had been changed by someone else later on.

[QUOTE="F1_2004"][QUOTE="Infinite_Access"]

How do they explain supernovas?? I mean we have seen a star going through that process... the light from that process takes millions/billions of years to reach us.... the universe is older than 6000 years.

toast_burner

Creationism summed up by Genesis 1:1 is an essential aspect of the Bible and of Christianity....

And properly understood, Creationism makes no claims to the age of the universe....just that God made it 'in the beginning'.

It's not that hard...

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

Well yes, the Bible chronicles wars and the Crucifiction of Jesus and other events that end in bloody terror, betrayaland pain. But it also has hope and stories of salvation and life. Moses getting everyone through the sea after God opened it, saving their lives is an example. AlthoughGod closed it back onto the Egyptians and killed them.

Hakkai007

How about god using genocide on a massive scale with the flood?

Or god asking Abraham to kill his own son as a test to see if he would do it.

Or what about the story of a man that offers his daughter to be raped by a group of men if they leave a customer alone.

There is incest, rape, genocide and much more in the bible.

I find it very funny when some parents are against video games because of violence when they have a bible sitting in their house that is many times more violent.

We actually do not allow any games rated 'M' in our house and still have the scriptures. Nothing wrong with that. :|

Well it's not even the "10 Commandments" part. Jesus did alot of acts of kindness and saved people's lives. And alot of the times the "violent" parts were punishments for wrongdoing. God is a God of mercy, but he is also a God of justice. That is just my beliefs,justto make that clear. But the Bible makes it clear too.

Hatiko

Well that is ok you have your opinion about the god described in the bible and I have mine.

My opinion would best be described by a quote from Richard Dawkins.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

Also Pliny made no specific mention of Jesus.

As for Seutonius, there's no indication he was referring to Jesus. Crestus was a common name. So, it's not logical to assume it was a corruption of Christ. Even if it was, Christ is a Greek translation of messiah. There were any number of would be messiahs inciting rebellion among the Jews.

Hakkai007

We actually do not allow any games rated 'M' in our house and still have the scriptures. Nothing wrong with that. :|

kev_stevens67

Well there isn't anything wrong with it but for someone to say they don't allow the mature video games because of violence and then to let their kids read the bible is hypocrisy.

[QUOTE="kev_stevens67"]

We actually do not allow any games rated 'M' in our house and still have the scriptures. Nothing wrong with that. :|

Hakkai007

Well there isn't anything wrong with it but for someone to say they don't allow the mature video games because of violence and then to let their kids read the bible is hypocrisy.

The teachings our son receives is about LOVE and FORGIVENESS. He also learns how to treat others with loving kindness. Not too bad if you ask me. I don't see how he can learn those things from playing a rated 'M' game. Sounds like to me you're grasping at some pretty big straws.

You obviously have not read their writings. I, for one, can state that I have. I've studied literature for a few years now, and I know their writings well. Pliny makes several references to Jesus in letters to government officials and Suetonius is pretty much generally accepted to be speaking about Christ because in conjunction with various religious texts, his accounts of other events not specifically mentioning Christ are accurate as well as the ones that do.frostybanana

I have read their writings.

And to save a long debunking of it I will get back to the main point in that they weren't contemporary.

Pliny was born 31 years after the death of Jesus.

Seutonius was born 40 years after the death of Jesus.

Tacitus was born 26 years after the death of Jesus.

The teachings our son receives is about LOVE and FORGIVENESS. He also learns how to treat others with loving kindness. Not too bad if you ask me. I don't see how he can learn those things from playing a rated 'M' game. Sounds like to me you're grasping at some pretty big straws.

kev_stevens67

Sure there are some nice teachings in the bible but if you let your kids read the whole thing you would find genocide, rape, incest and many other horrid things.

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

Well it's not even the "10 Commandments" part. Jesus did alot of acts of kindness and saved people's lives. And alot of the times the "violent" parts were punishments for wrongdoing. God is a God of mercy, but he is also a God of justice. That is just my beliefs,justto make that clear. But the Bible makes it clear too.

Hakkai007

Well that is ok you have your opinion about the god described in the bible and I have mine.

My opinion would best be described by a quote from Richard Dawkins.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

That quote just seemed like someone said all of the worst things you could say about a person and write them all down instead of showing proof for each of those claims (although I'm not saying all of thema are true, but jealous, I know people like Cain were jealous but I don't recall God being that way). But it is really no argument that the Old Testament shows a far more "vengeful" God than the one depicted in the New Testament. But we forget that the New Testament is alot about Jesus and how he preached about a loving God (God was his father what do you expect, but Jesus also preached Judgement at the end of time. Let's not forget that in the Book of Revelations it has one of the most violent things, the destruction of civilization, the Beast, etc. And God sent his Son down to die for us, in a most brutal way.

[QUOTE="kev_stevens67"]

The teachings our son receives is about LOVE and FORGIVENESS. He also learns how to treat others with loving kindness. Not too bad if you ask me. I don't see how he can learn those things from playing a rated 'M' game. Sounds like to me you're grasping at some pretty big straws.

Hakkai007

Sure there are some nice teachings in the bible but if you let your kids read the whole thing you would find genocide, rape, incest and many other horrid things.

I'm aware of what is in the Bible and there is something to learn anywhere. Our son is too young to read (except for little kid books), so right now, we are reading the Book of Mormon to him every night and teaching him in the process. There is a BIG difference between having a Bible, teaching a child right from wrong and playing a 'M' rated game in our house. There are so many great things in the Bible which I would not want to pass up. A 'M' rated game we can pass up very easily.

[QUOTE="frostybanana"]You obviously have not read their writings. I, for one, can state that I have. I've studied literature for a few years now, and I know their writings well. Pliny makes several references to Jesus in letters to government officials and Suetonius is pretty much generally accepted to be speaking about Christ because in conjunction with various religious texts, his accounts of other events not specifically mentioning Christ are accurate as well as the ones that do.Hakkai007

I have read their writings.

And to save a long debunking of it I will get back to the main point in that they weren't contemporary.

Pliny was born 32 years after the death of Jesus.

Seutonius was born 40 years after the Death of Jesus.

Tacitus was born 26 years after the death of Jesus.

[QUOTE="kev_stevens67"]

The teachings our son receives is about LOVE and FORGIVENESS. He also learns how to treat others with loving kindness. Not too bad if you ask me. I don't see how he can learn those things from playing a rated 'M' game. Sounds like to me you're grasping at some pretty big straws.

Hakkai007

Sure there are some nice teachings in the bible but if you let your kids read the whole thing you would find genocide, rape, incest and many other horrid things.

But those were due to the wrongdoing of humans. Solomon's Temple was destroyed by God. Solomon had1000 wive'sone woman each a day. That's amost a different woman every day for 3 years. Solomon was wise but he went astray, and God acted accordingly.

This argument again... The Majority of Christians today, are old earth creationists. And the concept that the bible and evolution cannot co-exist is silly.Penguinchow

I'm aware of what is in the Bible and there is something to learn anywhere. Our son is too young to read, so right now, we are reading the Book of Mormon to him every night and teaching him in the process. There is a BIG difference between having a Bible, teaching a child right from wrong and playing a 'M' rated game in our house. There are so many great things in the Bible which I would not want to pass up. A 'M' rated game we can pass up very easily.

kev_stevens67

Well then you are being selective with your choice in what you share in the bible.

I understand you're affiliated to that religion and holds those scriptures as truth but you don't really need to use the scriptures to teach right and wrong.

I remember looking through some of the children's versions of the bible and they cut out so much material that it held very little resemblance.

And what they kept was altered to be less violent.

It's too bad that most people don't know hebrew and have the earliest versions of the bible.

There have been so many revisions of the bible that it can be inaccurate.

Things have been cut out or altered.

The King James version of the bible is one of the least accurate but it is one of the most widely used it seems.

I'm sure you have :roll: and again, that's irrelevant. The men in question are not Christian. They have no reason to create a falsified document accounting for real historical cases in some sections and false ones in others. The notion that there is some giant conspiracy to create false accounts is ridiculous considering that at the time of the writings, Christians were being persecuted. It should also be noted that these men took accounts from other historians and wrote it out. A lot of the history back then was oratory, so it was fairly uncommon for people to physically write these documents because it was difficult and expensive to do so. So you read their writing and you didn't read the bible, the thing you're speaking out against now. That's utter nonsense. Besides which, the manner in which you're speaking of generally accepted authentic historical documents is indicative of your lack of knowledge on them. I do not believe you read them, but if you feel the need to lie about that to strengthen your argument go right ahead. Because your argument is not based on fact, it's based on your opinion. So there is no reason to take your argument seriously. frostybanana

There are quite a bit of contemporary historians of that time.

You say that I am making up a conspiracy when you have just created your own in the very same post.

The point was that they were not contemporary historians.

Pliny essentially says nothing on the subject of Jesus himself, he only talks about Christians, and Tacitus makes a remark about Jesus' execution, but could simply be quoting Christian beliefs, and it is very unlikely that he actually researched this, or had any government documents to research about Jesus, for that matter.

But again the whole point is that they were not contemporary.

Yes, I agree that the bible and evolution can co-exist. The only ones who think otherwise are people who are not well versed in the thing they're arguing against.frostybanana

Religion and Evolution can coexist.

The bible, if taken literally, cannot without ignoring parts from it that contradict evolution.

[QUOTE="frostybanana"]I'm sure you have :roll: and again, that's irrelevant. The men in question are not Christian. They have no reason to create a falsified document accounting for real historical cases in some sections and false ones in others. The notion that there is some giant conspiracy to create false accounts is ridiculous considering that at the time of the writings, Christians were being persecuted. It should also be noted that these men took accounts from other historians and wrote it out. A lot of the history back then was oratory, so it was fairly uncommon for people to physically write these documents because it was difficult and expensive to do so. So you read their writing and you didn't read the bible, the thing you're speaking out against now. That's utter nonsense. Besides which, the manner in which you're speaking of generally accepted authentic historical documents is indicative of your lack of knowledge on them. I do not believe you read them, but if you feel the need to lie about that to strengthen your argument go right ahead. Because your argument is not based on fact, it's based on your opinion. So there is no reason to take your argument seriously. Hakkai007

There are quite a bit of contemporary historians of that time.

You say that I am making up a conspiracy when you have just created your own in the very same post.

The point was that they were not contemporary historians.

Pliny essentially says nothing on the subject of Jesus himself, he only talks about Christians, and Tacitus makes a remark about Jesus' execution, but could simply be quoting Christian beliefs, and it is very unlikely that he actually researched this, or had any government documents to research about Jesus, for that matter.

But again the whole point is that they were not contemporary.

But those were due to the wrongdoing of humans. Solomon's Temple was destroyed by God. Solomon had1000 wive'sone woman each a day. That's amost a different woman every day for 3 years. Solomon was wise but he went astray, and God acted accordingly.

Hatiko

What about the Flood which killed just about every human on Earth except Noah and his family.

And to repopulate they would have to resort to incest.

I could bring up many more but that is one of the biggest ones.

I'm not an expert, but I have heard explanations of this using the gravitational-time dilation as a starting point to explain how light can travel millions of light years in less than six thousand years...

[QUOTE="kev_stevens67"]

I'm aware of what is in the Bible and there is something to learn anywhere. Our son is too young to read, so right now, we are reading the Book of Mormon to him every night and teaching him in the process. There is a BIG difference between having a Bible, teaching a child right from wrong and playing a 'M' rated game in our house. There are so many great things in the Bible which I would not want to pass up. A 'M' rated game we can pass up very easily.

Hakkai007

Well then you are being selective with your choice in what you share in the bible.

I understand you're affiliated to that religion and holds those scriptures as truth but you don't really need to use the scriptures to teach right and wrong.

I remember looking through some of the children's versions of the bible and they cut out so much material that it held very little resemblance.

And what they kept was altered to be less violent.

It's too bad that most people don't know hebrew and have the earliest versions of the bible.

There have been so many revisions of the bible that it can be inaccurate.

Things have been cut out or altered.

The King James version of the bible is one of the least accurate but it is one of the most widely used it seems.

We'll get to the OT in due time. The Book of Mormon can be violent as well. We talk with our son and explain things to him. I would much rather do this than have him play a rated 'M' game.

We are teaching our son to have good morals. Nothing wrong with that. We are teaching him without rated 'M' games in the house.

But you can use the scriptures to teach right from wrong and use other things as well. The argument 'you don't need scriptures to teach right from wrong' holds no weight. This isn't something we need to do..it is something we want to do.

As I stated before, that is completely irrelevant. Not going to repeat that. Pliny makes several references to Jesus, I have no idea what you're talking about. This is why I don't believe you actually read his writings.Tacitus goes in depth when speaking about Jesus, so once again, what are you talking about? He explicitly states that the accounts were orated to him earlier and he was merely writing the said events down. Your whole point is based on your opinion. You are picking and choosing what to believe, which doesn't make any sense when there is a consensus that Jesus existed and the depictions of his actions are historically accurate. Ask any modern historian. There are almost none who dispute the actual existence of Christ. His divinity is something else altogether. frostybanana

Again this discussion can go on forever so to keep things simple, you admit that they were not contemporary.

So they do not hold credibility because they are not contemporary nor were there any contemporary historians who wrote of the Jesus of the bible.

And yes you are right not many historians will say that a person named Jesus never existed at that time.

But they will dispute the validity of the claims in the bible that talk about Jesus.

And your post is filled with "Self Projection".......saying that I only pick and choose what to believe.

Really there is no point in arguing with you because nothing I will say will sway your point and it will be a waste of time.

Many before before me have argued my point and have done so much better than I ever could so I will let them do the talking.

[QUOTE="frostybanana"] Yes, I agree that the bible and evolution can co-exist. The only ones who think otherwise are people who are not well versed in the thing they're arguing against.Hakkai007

Religion and Evolution can coexist.

The bible, if taken literally, cannot without ignoring parts from it that contradict evolution.

who thinks the universe is only 6000 years old? not even the earth itself is that young.

This isn't something we need to do..it is something we want to do.

kev_stevens67

That is perfectly fine too.

I am just saying there are some parents who are against mature video games because of violence while they let their children have access to a bible which is more violent.

You may not be one of those parents so you are exempt from that comment I made.

[QUOTE="frostybanana"]As I stated before, that is completely irrelevant. Not going to repeat that. Pliny makes several references to Jesus, I have no idea what you're talking about. This is why I don't believe you actually read his writings.Tacitus goes in depth when speaking about Jesus, so once again, what are you talking about? He explicitly states that the accounts were orated to him earlier and he was merely writing the said events down. Your whole point is based on your opinion. You are picking and choosing what to believe, which doesn't make any sense when there is a consensus that Jesus existed and the depictions of his actions are historically accurate. Ask any modern historian. There are almost none who dispute the actual existence of Christ. His divinity is something else altogether. Hakkai007

Again this discussion can go on forever so to keep things simple, you admit that they were not contemporary.

So they do not hold credibility because they are not contemporary nor were there any contemporary historians who wrote of the Jesus of the bible.

And yes you are right not many historians will say that a person named Jesus never existed at that time.

But they will dispute the validity of the claims in the bible that talk about Jesus.

And your post is filled with "Self Projection".......saying that I only pick and choose what to believe.

Really there is no point in arguing with you because nothing I will say will sway your point and it will be a waste of time.

Many before before me have argued my point and have done so much better than I ever could so I will let them do the talking.

[QUOTE="Hatiko"]

But those were due to the wrongdoing of humans. Solomon's Temple was destroyed by God. Solomon had1000 wive'sone woman each a day. That's amost a different woman every day for 3 years. Solomon was wise but he went astray, and God acted accordingly.

Hakkai007

What about the Flood which killed just about every human on Earth except Noah and his family.

And to repopulate they would have to resort to incest.

I could bring up many more but that is one of the biggest ones.

While I will try to look more in depth on this, but for now,God allowed Adam and Eve's family to reproduce because it was the beginning of the world. So when God basically washed the slate clean he kept Noah and his family to do the same. Leviticus is the part that talks alot about what to do and not to do, especially with sex, and it does say no to incest, but this comes after Noah so the , "law" was not yet written because it was needed to continue God's creation. The same had to be done with the animals.

[QUOTE="Hakkai007"]

[QUOTE="frostybanana"] Yes, I agree that the bible and evolution can co-exist. The only ones who think otherwise are people who are not well versed in the thing they're arguing against.frostybanana

Religion and Evolution can coexist.

The bible, if taken literally, cannot without ignoring parts from it that contradict evolution.

How do you tell what is metaphorical in the bible?

To people who read the bible thousands of years ago those events on the flood could seem very real with their lack of a science that we have.

Although there were many flood myths at that time which could point to their actually having been a small sized flood in the area over there.

While I don't personally believe that the universe is that young.....

If one accepts that God made the universe then one would have to accept God's ability to also make in-transit light at the same time if He wanted to.

Storm_Marine

Basically if you accept the existence of god as an all-powerful being then you can make up any excuse attempting to refute basic scientific evidence.

[QUOTE="frostybanana"][QUOTE="Hakkai007"]

Religion and Evolution can coexist.

The bible, if taken literally, cannot without ignoring parts from it that contradict evolution.

Hakkai007

How do you tell what is metaphorical in the bible?

To people who read the bible thousands of years ago those events on the flood could seem very real with their lack of a science that we have.

Although there were many flood myths at that time which could point to their actually having been a small sized flood in the area over there.