Are You Circumsised? (poll)

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rimnet00

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#101 rimnet00
Member since 2003 • 11003 Posts
I can't see why any parents would have their child cirumsised unless they were Jewish. Is it really THAT necessary. It's like cutting off your earlobes because they hang off your ears and appear unseemly to society.bradleybhoy

Muslims are also required to be circumsized. I think it's similiar with many Christian sects as well. However, aside from religion, it also comes down to hygene and medical issues resulting around it.

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elblanquito_81

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#102 elblanquito_81
Member since 2007 • 4356 Posts
[QUOTE="elblanquito_81"][QUOTE="Sajedene"]

Eh infections aside - they need to keep clean how often times a day as it ends up stinking (urine, sweat, secretions, etc) happens all day. You honestly tell me you wash up everytime you sweat and piss?

Sajedene

You know, the same can be said for women. ;)

Aside from that, it doesn't really stink at all, not if one follows proper hygiene everyday. An overly nasty-smelly one is most likely the result of a lack of hygiene or an infection of some kind. But the distinct scent that comes from secretions is actually found to be arousing to some women.

Yeah I know - and we actually have products that cater to that.

and the keyword to your last statement is SOME.

We do too, it's called soap and water.

Just like SOME not ALL women like circumcised men.

I'd just like to know though, from your perspective, what is it exactly about a foreskin you find to be so gross. I don't know if you answered this already or not, but I find it curious as to why. Seeing as this is the first time I've seen (well heard) a woman make a big deal of it.

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bradleybhoy

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#103 bradleybhoy
Member since 2005 • 6501 Posts
[QUOTE="Sajedene"][QUOTE="MindFreeze"]

Cause you said it's gross.

And the brushing teeth thing is a great example.

MindFreeze

And do you know why I think its gross? I dont think so - so yeah feel free to assume I'm shallow.

All I know is that I prefer them cut as its more fun, aesthetically pleasing to the eyes, and they do not give me infections.

And if guys tell their partner to do something to their private parts to make it more aesthetically pleasing, they're dicks right?

Why keep saying that, just tell us why then!

Tell me how it's more fun.

Yes do tell, that would be most... illuminating.

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Sajedene

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#104 Sajedene
Member since 2004 • 13718 Posts

[QUOTE="Sajedene"]All I know is that I prefer them cut as its more fun, aesthetically pleasing to the eyes, and they do not give me infections. foxhound_fox

A full foreskin can provide more pleasure for the woman... subjective... and any man can give you an infection, "cut" or not.

Your reasoning is quite hollow.

Im talking based on my personal experiences - so as I said - try all you want. I know where I stand and what I like.

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harrisi17

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#105 harrisi17
Member since 2004 • 4010 Posts
And why do you ask?
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Blitz_Nemesis

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#106 Blitz_Nemesis
Member since 2005 • 8042 Posts
:lol: this is getting more heated then the religious threads, although this is pretty one-sided(all vs. sajedene). i understand but cant help but laugh at the fact you guys are getting so offended that sajedene is insulting your non-circumcised penises. CIRCUMCISION FTW!!!!!
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Jaks_Secret

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#107 Jaks_Secret
Member since 2006 • 9003 Posts
Though your ideas are wrong, I won't try to change your opinion Saje. But you won't even go out with a guy with the extra skin? That must be hella awkward asking a man whether his penis has been cut before you start even dating.
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SolidSnake35

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#108 SolidSnake35
Member since 2005 • 58971 Posts
Perhaps - but the difference is that I wont even go out with someone uncut - call that shallow. I dont care. I have my standards.Sajedene
That has nothing to do with standards. You only say that to strengthen your argument of one being better than the other. Poor show.
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bradleybhoy

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#109 bradleybhoy
Member since 2005 • 6501 Posts
[QUOTE="MindFreeze"]

And if guys tell their partner to do something to their private parts to make it more aesthetically pleasing, they're dicks right?

Why keep saying that, just tell us why then!

Tell me how it's more fun.

And the infection giving part is unfounded.

Sajedene

Perhaps - but the difference is that I wont even go out with someone uncut - call that shallow. I dont care. I have my standards.

Uh, it's also unreasonable and irrational. Is this what society has come to, people rejecting potential partners over actual physical trivialities?

What if "the one" you're looking for hasn't been circumsised?

Or maybe "the one" you're looking for is just a giant cirsumsised penis on legs.

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Jaks_Secret

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#110 Jaks_Secret
Member since 2006 • 9003 Posts
It's not that she's insulting us, it's just that something so trivial as extra skin shouldn't make her avoid all guys with it. Seriously, it's like avoiding women with small nipples.
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SolidSnake35

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#111 SolidSnake35
Member since 2005 • 58971 Posts
It's not that she's insulting us, it's just that something so trivial as extra skin shouldn't make her avoid all guys with it. Seriously, it's like avoiding women with small nipples.Jaks_Secret
She might avoid men with small nipples too. :o
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Jaks_Secret

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#112 Jaks_Secret
Member since 2006 • 9003 Posts
Wow, the first big OT debate thread I get really involved with, and instead of it being about religion or politics, it's about penises. Great.
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MindFreeze

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#113 MindFreeze
Member since 2007 • 2814 Posts

It's not that she's insulting us, it's just that something so trivial as extra skin shouldn't make her avoid all guys with it. Seriously, it's like avoiding women with small nipples.Jaks_Secret

Exactly what I was thinking.

I find it pretty damn infuriating that babies get it done, without permission obviously. Make it illegal! Stop the unnecessary bloodshed!

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II-FBIsniper-II

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#114 II-FBIsniper-II
Member since 2005 • 18067 Posts
Wow, the first big OT debate thread I get really involved with, and instead of it being about religion or politics, it's about penises. Great.Jaks_Secret
Let's talk about boobs...
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Jaks_Secret

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#115 Jaks_Secret
Member since 2006 • 9003 Posts

[QUOTE="Jaks_Secret"]It's not that she's insulting us, it's just that something so trivial as extra skin shouldn't make her avoid all guys with it. Seriously, it's like avoiding women with small nipples.SolidSnake35
She might avoid men with small nipples too. :o

Dah-duh-daah!

But as much as I would love to continue arguing, I'm off to go take a shower. And that's right, I'll be prodly washing my uncircumsised penis Hah, cracka!

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foxhound_fox

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#116 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
Im talking based on my personal experiences - so as I said - try all you want. I know where I stand and what I like. Sajedene

I'm not trying to change your mind or attack your opinion, I am just responding to the arguments you made in an objective manner.
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the_leet_kid

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#117 the_leet_kid
Member since 2005 • 9951 Posts
This thread is full of dicks, which is funny, considering the topic is on penises.
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domatron23

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#118 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts
Nope I'm quite happily a whole man. I don't understand you Americans and your body modification / mutilation fetishes.
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Sajedene

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#119 Sajedene
Member since 2004 • 13718 Posts

:lol: this is getting more heated then the religious threads, although this is pretty one-sided(all vs. sajedene). i understand but cant help but laugh at the fact you guys are getting so offended that sajedene is insulting your non-circumcised penises. CIRCUMCISION FTW!!!!!Blitz_Nemesis

Lol its hilarious isnt it?

Well I'm not going to bother quoting every single one of you but from what I can remember reading through -

Yes my standards are important to me to determine what I THINK IS better.

I do not believe that the guy is "the one" if he can not satisfy me in bed.


Just like all of you - I dont go saying what I am saying based on something I saw on the internet. I have dated "hooded men" and the last one ended in the most unfortunate of circumstances. That is why I can say, yes! I do find cut men more aeesthetically and physically pleasing to me and so do my friends! So we are all wrong in your eyes? I dont care, so be it.

You all know what you know, I know what I know - I've tried to step away from this thread already but you guys are still on the defensive. Which is ok - since it is about your thing. But for all of you to pretend like you dont have any standards either - well thats just plain silly to me.

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rimnet00

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#120 rimnet00
Member since 2003 • 11003 Posts

[QUOTE="Blitz_Nemesis"]:lol: this is getting more heated then the religious threads, although this is pretty one-sided(all vs. sajedene). i understand but cant help but laugh at the fact you guys are getting so offended that sajedene is insulting your non-circumcised penises. CIRCUMCISION FTW!!!!!Sajedene

Lol its hilarious isnt it?

Well I'm not going to bother quoting every single one of you but from what I can remember reading through -

Yes my standards are important to me to determine what I THINK IS better.

I do not believe that the guy is "the one" if he can not satisfy me in bed.


Just like all of you - I dont go saying what I am saying based on something I saw on the internet. I have dated "hooded men" and the last one ended in the most unfortunate of circumstances. That is why I can say, yes! I do find cut men more aeesthetically and physically pleasing to me and so do my friends! So we are all wrong in your eyes? I dont care, so be it.

You all know what you know, I know what I know - I've tried to step away from this thread already but you guys are still on the defensive. Which is ok - since it is about your thing. But for all of you to pretend like you dont have any standards either - well thats just plain silly to me.

I see where you are coming from. More often then not, I have heard women say that they prefer men who are circumcised, while some are very turned off by uncircumcised men. I have never heard it the other way around.

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Erasorn

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#121 Erasorn
Member since 2004 • 14502 Posts
I love how heated these discussions on GS get. People can argue so furiously over something as miniscule as a flap of skin at the end of your pork sword. :lol:Def_Jef88
Well, people take it seriously because some see it as a form of child abuse while the circumcised people generally don't want others to tell them that their parents are child abusers, I think. :P
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elblanquito_81

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#122 elblanquito_81
Member since 2007 • 4356 Posts

[QUOTE="Blitz_Nemesis"]:lol: this is getting more heated then the religious threads, although this is pretty one-sided(all vs. sajedene). i understand but cant help but laugh at the fact you guys are getting so offended that sajedene is insulting your non-circumcised penises. CIRCUMCISION FTW!!!!!Sajedene

Lol its hilarious isnt it?

Well I'm not going to bother quoting every single one of you but from what I can remember reading through -

Yes my standards are important to me to determine what I THINK IS better.

I do not believe that the guy is "the one" if he can not satisfy me in bed.


Just like all of you - I dont go saying what I am saying based on something I saw on the internet. I have dated "hooded men" and the last one ended in the most unfortunate of circumstances. That is why I can say, yes! I do find cut men more aeesthetically and physically pleasing to me and so do my friends! So we are all wrong in your eyes? I dont care, so be it.

You all know what you know, I know what I know - I've tried to step away from this thread already but you guys are still on the defensive. Which is ok - since it is about your thing. But for all of you to pretend like you dont have any standards either - well thats just plain silly to me.

I don't speak for everyone here but I agree with you that we all have our standards and preferences when it comes to the opposite sex. But I think it's the way that you came off somewhat judgemental, of all guys that aren't circumcised, that rubbed some of us the wrong way. I, for one, don't see myself as an infection-spreading, smelly penis carrier, as I take care of myself.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't your intent though and were merely stating your opinion, so there's no hard feelings.

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Tykain

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#123 Tykain
Member since 2008 • 3887 Posts
I'm not circumcised like most people in europe.
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tzar3

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#124 tzar3
Member since 2006 • 12393 Posts
[QUOTE="MindFreeze"]

Cause you said it's gross.

And the brushing teeth thing is a great example.

Sajedene

And do you know why I think its gross? I dont think so - so yeah feel free to assume I'm shallow.

All I know is that I prefer them cut as its more fun, aesthetically pleasing to the eyes, and they do not give me infections.

How is looking at a curcumcised penis pleasing to look at?
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bradleybhoy

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#125 bradleybhoy
Member since 2005 • 6501 Posts
[QUOTE="Sajedene"][QUOTE="MindFreeze"]

Cause you said it's gross.

And the brushing teeth thing is a great example.

tzar3

And do you know why I think its gross? I dont think so - so yeah feel free to assume I'm shallow.

All I know is that I prefer them cut as its more fun, aesthetically pleasing to the eyes, and they do not give me infections.

How is looking at a curcumcised penis pleasing to look at?

Coz she's a chick, and they like looking at penises amongst other things. Amrite?

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Sajedene

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#126 Sajedene
Member since 2004 • 13718 Posts
[QUOTE="Sajedene"]

[QUOTE="Blitz_Nemesis"]:lol: this is getting more heated then the religious threads, although this is pretty one-sided(all vs. sajedene). i understand but cant help but laugh at the fact you guys are getting so offended that sajedene is insulting your non-circumcised penises. CIRCUMCISION FTW!!!!!elblanquito_81

Lol its hilarious isnt it?

Well I'm not going to bother quoting every single one of you but from what I can remember reading through -

Yes my standards are important to me to determine what I THINK IS better.

I do not believe that the guy is "the one" if he can not satisfy me in bed.


Just like all of you - I dont go saying what I am saying based on something I saw on the internet. I have dated "hooded men" and the last one ended in the most unfortunate of circumstances. That is why I can say, yes! I do find cut men more aeesthetically and physically pleasing to me and so do my friends! So we are all wrong in your eyes? I dont care, so be it.

You all know what you know, I know what I know - I've tried to step away from this thread already but you guys are still on the defensive. Which is ok - since it is about your thing. But for all of you to pretend like you dont have any standards either - well thats just plain silly to me.

I don't speak for everyone here but I agree with you that we all have our standards and preferences when it comes to the opposite sex. But I think it's the way that you came off somewhat judgemental, of all guys that aren't circumcised, that rubbed some of us the wrong way. I, for one, don't see myself as an infection-spreading, smelly penis carrier, as I take care of myself.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't your intent though and were merely stating your opinion, so there's no hard feelings.

None here either. Like I said, I understand why you'd all be up in arms about my opinions and I could have worded myself better :)

and Tzar - its hard to explain without getting modded and its going to vary female to female as to why.

I wish I can link you guys to this thread in a female forum I go to which discusses this same thing but it is blocked as it is an 18+ only forum and you have to be a member - blah blah blah...

But to sumarize it - most females voted they prefered circumcised for reasons I stated. Some females from the european countries prefered the uncut look, and some said they didnt care as long as the man was clean. But a lot of them also agree that it is the choice of the man to get it done and would never do it to their sons

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Tolwan

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#127 Tolwan
Member since 2003 • 2575 Posts
This post is still going? Well i quote several doctors i know in saying that getting rid of foreskin is worth it. The little it adds to sexuality is not worth the infectious dangers of foreskin. You have to take care of it constantly, and children often dont, no matter how much their parents tell them. Furthermore, problems arise when you dont *have* the ability to wash yourself thoroughly, especially if say you are a soldier on deployment. I accept Circumcision as a standard procedure, however incase you are all wondering, it is still up to the parents if the doctors carry through with it, it's pretty much a quick yes or no after the baby is born.
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tzar3

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#128 tzar3
Member since 2006 • 12393 Posts
[QUOTE="tzar3"][QUOTE="Sajedene"][QUOTE="MindFreeze"]

Cause you said it's gross.

And the brushing teeth thing is a great example.

bradleybhoy

And do you know why I think its gross? I dont think so - so yeah feel free to assume I'm shallow.

All I know is that I prefer them cut as its more fun, aesthetically pleasing to the eyes, and they do not give me infections.

How is looking at a curcumcised penis pleasing to look at?

Coz she's a chick, and they like looking at penises amongst other things. Amrite?

I suppose so, so I should just flash it out at every singe woman I see on the streets then, maybe they will swarm me, or kick me there horribly.

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jensen_slipknot

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#129 jensen_slipknot
Member since 2006 • 2559 Posts
why yes kind sir! yes i am!
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Akm4everz

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#130 Akm4everz
Member since 2004 • 2390 Posts
wow i didnt know so many people werent... the thought makes me sick.... and so does posting in this thread lol.
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foxhound_fox

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#131 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
This post is still going? Well i quote several doctors i know in saying that getting rid of foreskin is worth it. The little it adds to sexuality is not worth the infectious dangers of foreskin. You have to take care of it constantly, and children often dont, no matter how much their parents tell them. Furthermore, problems arise when you dont *have* the ability to wash yourself thoroughly, especially if say you are a soldier on deployment. I accept Circumcision as a standard procedure, however incase you are all wondering, it is still up to the parents if the doctors carry through with it, it's pretty much a quick yes or no after the baby is born.Tolwan

Please post some valid sources to support these claims.

Any man, regardless of the amount of foreskin removed has to constantly clean his penis No matter if it is covered or not, it can get infected without proper hygiene.
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UrbanSpartan125

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#132 UrbanSpartan125
Member since 2006 • 3684 Posts

No, its there for a reason. The same way a soldier needs a helmet its the same thing.

tzar3
In reality the helmet doesn't really protect you from anything a rock maybe a bullet no way. Its there for self comfort to give a false sense of security.
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ReverseCycology

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#133 ReverseCycology
Member since 2006 • 9717 Posts

Cool, I thought I was the only one, what a relief.

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Thiago26792

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#134 Thiago26792
Member since 2007 • 11059 Posts
I think I'm not :|
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xbox3604lyf

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#135 xbox3604lyf
Member since 2006 • 792 Posts
mines folded back and stitched
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Tolwan

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#136 Tolwan
Member since 2003 • 2575 Posts

[QUOTE="Tolwan"]This post is still going? Well i quote several doctors i know in saying that getting rid of foreskin is worth it. The little it adds to sexuality is not worth the infectious dangers of foreskin. You have to take care of it constantly, and children often dont, no matter how much their parents tell them. Furthermore, problems arise when you dont *have* the ability to wash yourself thoroughly, especially if say you are a soldier on deployment. I accept Circumcision as a standard procedure, however incase you are all wondering, it is still up to the parents if the doctors carry through with it, it's pretty much a quick yes or no after the baby is born.foxhound_fox

Please post some valid sources to support these claims.

Any man, regardless of the amount of foreskin removed has to constantly clean his penis No matter if it is covered or not, it can get infected without proper hygiene.

Here: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/385
Here: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1862490
Here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/12/061213174708.htm
Here: http://www.medicirc.org/summary.html
and Here: http://men.webmd.com/guide/circumcision-decision-weighing-risks-benefits

Let me know if you want more.

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FUBAR24

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#137 FUBAR24
Member since 2005 • 12185 Posts

[QUOTE="Jaks_Secret"]It's not that she's insulting us, it's just that something so trivial as extra skin shouldn't make her avoid all guys with it. Seriously, it's like avoiding women with small nipples.MindFreeze

Exactly what I was thinking.

I find it pretty damn infuriating that babies get it done, without permission obviously. Make it illegal! Stop the unnecessary bloodshed!

oh get over it. doctors HAVE and i mean absolutely HAVE to have permission before cutting off the foreskin. and its not bloodshed have you ever seen a baby being circumsised. its not like after the first cut a river of blood flows from the penis in fact there is hardly any blood. (my mom used to be a nurse)

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foxhound_fox

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#138 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
In reality the helmet doesn't really protect you from anything a rock maybe a bullet no way. Its there for self comfort to give a false sense of security.UrbanSpartan125

The foreskin actually prevents irritation. The glans of the penis is designed to be an internal organ and is extremely sensitive to friction (as is the female homologue to the penis a surprisingly censored word which is the scientific name... :|).
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Tolwan

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#139 Tolwan
Member since 2003 • 2575 Posts

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="Tolwan"]This post is still going? Well i quote several doctors i know in saying that getting rid of foreskin is worth it. The little it adds to sexuality is not worth the infectious dangers of foreskin. You have to take care of it constantly, and children often dont, no matter how much their parents tell them. Furthermore, problems arise when you dont *have* the ability to wash yourself thoroughly, especially if say you are a soldier on deployment. I accept Circumcision as a standard procedure, however incase you are all wondering, it is still up to the parents if the doctors carry through with it, it's pretty much a quick yes or no after the baby is born.Tolwan


Please post some valid sources to support these claims.

Any man, regardless of the amount of foreskin removed has to constantly clean his penis No matter if it is covered or not, it can get infected without proper hygiene.

Here: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/385
Here: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1862490
Here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/12/061213174708.htm
Here: http://www.medicirc.org/summary.html
and Here: http://men.webmd.com/guide/circumcision-decision-weighing-risks-benefits

Let me know if you want more.

Oh, and there are also ebsco-host articles which are peer-reviewed articles between field professionals, however you can only see those if you have an account. If you are in college atm i suggest running a medical search for "Circumcision benefit studies".

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foxhound_fox

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#140 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
Here: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/385

Here: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1862490
Here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/12/061213174708.htm
Here: http://www.medicirc.org/summary.html
and Here: http://men.webmd.com/guide/circumcision-decision-weighing-risks-benefits

Let me know if you want more.

Tolwan

Finally, some evidence that refutes my argument is brought up... you don't know how happy this makes me.

It is going tot take me a while to go through these.
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linkthewindow

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#141 linkthewindow
Member since 2005 • 5654 Posts
No.
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rimnet00

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#142 rimnet00
Member since 2003 • 11003 Posts
[QUOTE="Tolwan"]Here: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/385

Here: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1862490
Here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/12/061213174708.htm
Here: http://www.medicirc.org/summary.html
and Here: http://men.webmd.com/guide/circumcision-decision-weighing-risks-benefits

Let me know if you want more.

foxhound_fox


Finally, some evidence that refutes my argument is brought up... you don't know how happy this makes me.

It is going tot take me a while to go through these.

Just in case you change your mind, heres one more link: link
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bradleybhoy

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#143 bradleybhoy
Member since 2005 • 6501 Posts

[QUOTE="UrbanSpartan125"]In reality the helmet doesn't really protect you from anything a rock maybe a bullet no way. Its there for self comfort to give a false sense of security.foxhound_fox

The foreskin actually prevents irritation. The glans of the penis is designed to be an internal organ and is extremely sensitive to friction (as is the female homologue to the penis a surprisingly censored word which is the scientific name... :|).

Very well put. I can definitely feel it if the toad's out of the hole, I can't imagine walking about like that permanenetly. And arguably the foreskin should provide further protection to the penis from external sources of disease.

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FUBAR24

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#145 FUBAR24
Member since 2005 • 12185 Posts

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="UrbanSpartan125"]In reality the helmet doesn't really protect you from anything a rock maybe a bullet no way. Its there for self comfort to give a false sense of security.bradleybhoy


The foreskin actually prevents irritation. The glans of the penis is designed to be an internal organ and is extremely sensitive to friction (as is the female homologue to the penis a surprisingly censored word which is the scientific name... :|).

Very well put. I can definitely feel it if the toad's out of the hole, I can't imagine walking about like that permanenetly. And arguably the foreskin should provide further protection to the penis from external sources of disease.

if you are circumsised from birth you dont notice the irratation because thats what your used too

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Faylette

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#146 Faylette
Member since 2006 • 672 Posts

I'm a woman, so thank the merciful Lord, I'm not. My fiance is uncut and I couldn't be happier; circumcised penises look nasty to me.

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Psychadelichaos

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#147 Psychadelichaos
Member since 2007 • 316 Posts
yeah thankfully uncircumsized ones looks disgusting and are dirty
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rimnet00

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#148 rimnet00
Member since 2003 • 11003 Posts

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="UrbanSpartan125"]In reality the helmet doesn't really protect you from anything a rock maybe a bullet no way. Its there for self comfort to give a false sense of security.bradleybhoy


The foreskin actually prevents irritation. The glans of the penis is designed to be an internal organ and is extremely sensitive to friction (as is the female homologue to the penis a surprisingly censored word which is the scientific name... :|).

Very well put. I can definitely feel it if the toad's out of the hole, I can't imagine walking about like that permanenetly. And arguably the foreskin should provide further protection to the penis from external sources of disease.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm

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AdamPA1006

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#149 AdamPA1006
Member since 2004 • 6422 Posts
Yes circumsised, and glad.
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bradleybhoy

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#150 bradleybhoy
Member since 2005 • 6501 Posts

Wow, I might consider getting circumsised, if the opportunity should arise. Maybe a free mobile circumsision unit might come round area.

Still I think it would be a tad uncomfortable walking about with no lampshade to cover my dazzling member.

Can anyone speak from experience and clear this up for me?