Nintendo, Same Ingedients, Same Old Meals

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#51 Edited by psx_warrior (1556 posts) -

@KBFloYd said:

@thedude- said:

Nintendo does not understand that all they really need to do is invest in new series and bring back some we have not seen in years. Give us a Star Fox that has everyone huddled around the couch (online couch too!).

They don't take risks. NES Remix is a joke. We already have VC games. Mario Mario Mario; it gets old. Eventhough those Mario games are always of the highest quality. Nintendo just has no interest in getting the attention of gamers outside their fanbase. And even their own fanbase is waning. All they like to focus on is non gaming centric consumers and then they like to drip feed their loyal fanbase.

They don't keep up with current tech trends and if they ever do make a new IP its generic/low risk. They need something fleshed out like Pikmin as a new character but on a more grand scale.

zelda warriors has the 233,000 views on youtube in just 6 hours...nintendo hasnt seen this kind of interest for a while.

Yeah, my friend and I saw it too. We are soooo stoked because we love Dynasty Warriors and Zelda.

#52 Edited by Grieverr (2737 posts) -

@JordanElek and @madmangamer364:

I feek like you guys are saying that Nintendo abandoned their Wii audience in an attempt to grab the core gamer, but I don't see how.

They launched with Nintendoland and Mario U. Since then, it's been Mario and Sonic at the Olympics, Wii Fit U, Wii Party U, Mario 3D World. And 3rd party includes Lego Batman, Lego Marvel, Scribblenauts, and Just Dance. I'm sure I'm missing many more, but these games seem to be the games that made the Wii a success.

I think people expected these games to sell a lot more than they did, which could be why Nintendo may be looking to shift, since their Wii buyers are not buying these games.

At this time, you have the games mentioned above, more core Nintendo games like Pikmin and Wonderful 101, and you have the multiplatforms like Batman, Need for Speed, and Mass Effect, and the Wii U is still not selling. You have to think that looking from above, Nintendo has no idea what else it can offer.

#53 Posted by JordanElek (17872 posts) -

@Grieverr said:

@JordanElek and @madmangamer364:

I feek like you guys are saying that Nintendo abandoned their Wii audience in an attempt to grab the core gamer, but I don't see how.

I'm saying the Wii audience abandoned Nintendo. The non-traditional gamers, who made the Wii sell so much more than the other consoles, had their fill of Nintendo's motion control games and never cared much about anything else, aside from Mario Kart and NSMB.

Remember, Nintendo's strategy with the Wii was to capture everyone's attention with easy-to-play motion control games, then pull them in even further with "bridge" games like Mario Kart so that they would become long-time Nintendo customers who would continue to buy their more traditional mainstays, like Zelda and Mario and Donkey Kong. Nintendo knew that motion control mini-games weren't going to keep people interested for long, so they HAD to try to convince these new customers to fall in love with their existing franchises.

That didn't work. That obviously didn't work. But Nintendo launched the WiiU assuming that it had worked, and their launch games clearly demonstrate that. Nintendo Land and NSMBU were firmly seated on the other side of that "bridge," and very few people wanted to cross it. Even people who already liked what was on the other side didn't want to cross it.

#54 Posted by Cruxis27 (1908 posts) -

People need to understand that Nintendo's primary market is the kiddies. Every new Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon that comes out is meant to reel in a new generation of gamers and satisfy the younger kids, along with their parents. The "core" gamers in their twenties still playing Nintendo games is too small and insignificant for Nintendo to go ahead and change their whole formula just for their sake.

#55 Posted by burn_cooper (17 posts) -

@Cruxis27 said:

People need to understand that Nintendo's primary market is the kiddies. Every new Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon that comes out is meant to reel in a new generation of gamers and satisfy the younger kids, along with their parents. The "core" gamers in their twenties still playing Nintendo games is too small and insignificant for Nintendo to go ahead and change their whole formula just for their sake.

Not at all, how many "old" gamers you think still buy nintendo consoles because of "what it used to be"? a lot, and they are not insignificant at all. In my belief Nintendo can continue with the same damn formula that still works, but they shoud concentrate on NEW franchises, not rebooting series or making more mario games. Please, Mario is a cat now, they obviously reached their limit

#56 Posted by Jaysonguy (37683 posts) -

@Cruxis27 said:

People need to understand that Nintendo's primary market is the kiddies. Every new Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon that comes out is meant to reel in a new generation of gamers and satisfy the younger kids, along with their parents. The "core" gamers in their twenties still playing Nintendo games is too small and insignificant for Nintendo to go ahead and change their whole formula just for their sake.

Except like I said, from the NES to the start of the Wii they were able to change and adapt to audiences by switching things up

It's only under Iwata that things have become stagnant.

#57 Posted by JordanElek (17872 posts) -

@Cruxis27 said:

People need to understand that Nintendo's primary market is the kiddies. Every new Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon that comes out is meant to reel in a new generation of gamers and satisfy the younger kids, along with their parents. The "core" gamers in their twenties still playing Nintendo games is too small and insignificant for Nintendo to go ahead and change their whole formula just for their sake.

But those kids didn't ask for a WiiU for Christmas. If they had, the November sales numbers would've been much higher.

#58 Edited by YoshiYogurt (5978 posts) -

Other game companies copy ideas and rehash constantly, but when Nintendo tries out a new concept it's FLAT OUT STOLEN....

#59 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6029 posts) -

@YoshiYogurt: stupid comment. Ain't stolen if you have the original makers making it. Tecmo Koei is behind Hyrule Warriors, and it seems pretty likely that Omega Force is, too.

#60 Posted by RealJaysonguy (219 posts) -

@Jaysonguy said:

@turtlethetaffer said:

@Jaysonguy: I've enjoyed Nintendo throughout the years. Their old games are great, their new games are great, they put out a great product. That's what I'm saying. I didn't start seriously gaming until the Gamecube era, but I've played a ton of their old games in the past few years to know that they've always been a great company for video games.

I enjoy most of their stuff as well.

The thing though is that under Iwata (second half of the Wii, 3DS, and the Wii U) all the products they offer are the same now.

Everything from the NES to the first half of the Wii's lifespan had a wider scope, a larger plan.

The thing is, I actually see what my other half is saying this time. I too don't believe Nintendo has quite as strong a vision for the Wii U as other systems, but the one area where I disagree is the fact that I still think the system, and Nintendo for that matter, will end up perfectly fine. It's true that, for some reason, seeing that Wii's wider audience had moved on from the system, Nintendo thought the Wii's namesake alone would push units into homes, which is obviously something that didn't end up being true.

But one of Nintendo's very strong business practices that's not always the most consumer friendly is the fact that they know how to think long term, even in the face of current struggles. Most companies react irrationally when their product isn't performing anywhere near how they want it to, which leads to brash decision making and drastic action that ends up hurting their product and company namesake in the long run. In short, Nintendo knows how to harbor a failure, or in this case, a shortcoming.

I don't see the Wii U as a failure, unlike my identical namesake without the "real" included. In all honesty, it's far too early in the life cycle to even think about defining the system with that title. Yes, they dropped the price after a year, but fifty dollars is hardly something to freak out about. I, for one, don't bear any ill will for spending an extra fifty dollars by picking up my console at launch, and I had little frustrations when the games I was looking forward to ended up coming out much later than expected. Because I know that Nintendo knows how to look into the long term when they're not doing well.

Even if the Wii U continues in this trend and ends up their worst-selling home console in their history, I have faith knowing that it won't cause a panic inside Nintendo and end up bankrupting the company as they desperately try to spin their console in every possible way to get it into more homes. What I do know is that Nintendo will stick to their guns and continually release quality first party content that I'll enjoy just as much as the last console generation, even if I'm part of a small community that plays them.

Whatever long-term vision Nintendo's lacking, which again, I think they are this time around, I fully believe they'll find. Third parties will, again, all but disappear on the console, and we'll once again have a first party dominated console, but that's always what I've bought Nintendo console for to begin with. And to round it out, analyzing an end-of-December array of game announcements in like judging a Zelda game based solely on its mini games. Nintendo's not dropping bombs a week before Christmas, that's what the beginning of 2014, and that little time of year known as E3.

There wasn't really any reason to expect any new games to be announced in a December direct, and here we got a fun NES challenge compilation, and a new freaking Zelda spinoff game. Regardless of what you think about Hyrule Warriors, Nintendo announced a new freaking Zelda spinoff game in December.

Nintendo's going to be just fine because they know how to suck without letting it take them down. I know that sounds like an odd way to phrase it, but most companies don't know how to suck. Nintendo's soared to the tops of the charts, and they've ended up at the bottom of the barrel so many times, there's no reason to believe they're not going to make a grand comeback. That's why they're Nintendo.

#61 Posted by bbkkristian (14955 posts) -

RealJasonguy >>>> Jasonguy

#62 Posted by mrfokken (629 posts) -

Nintendo has over-saturated their market with the New Super Mario Bros series games, and may well be wasting their resources with Donkey Kong Country as well.

McDonalds recognizes that McRibs sell best when they offer them sparingly.

We know Nintendo will continue to develop and publish games of the utmost quality, but the western game market may well turn a blind eye to those games. Kirby, Yoshi, Mario Kart, Donkey Kong, and others may well fail to appeal to an audience who flocks to COD and GTA but little else.

Nintendo would benefit from forming partnerships with western developers who could help Nintendo find software that appeals to the important 13-25 year old demographic that purchases video games. A hard group to reach with Nintendo's core franchises because of the insecurities they feel. This group seeks what they feel are mature experiences.

I don't think Nintendo needs to change their menu. Turkey is always good at Thanksgiving, Hot dogs at the 4th of July. pizza is always good, and hamburgers will always sell. Expanding their menu to reach a target audience should be done.

#63 Posted by luke1889 (14617 posts) -

I've been a Nintendo fan for thirteen years now (not as long as some, but still quite a while) and I'm somewhat sad to see how things have panned out. Don't get me wrong, I bought a 3DS and a Wii U at launch and am enjoying them both very much, but the relatively dire sales figures for the Wii U do not look promising for the future. Nine million sales by the end of the tax year? Having sold only four million after a whole year on sale? Yeah, I don't ever see that happening.

Regardless, I'll continue to buy the exclusives that I enjoy and I'll have a lot of fun.

#64 Posted by TTUalumni13 (499 posts) -

Realjaysonguy is definitely not Jaysonguy, Jaysonguy knows how to get a point across without writing a novel :P

But seriously, how is this debate not ended already? Spankys. Burgers. Fly in, get a He-man-woman-hater with a side of fried cheese. Best burger in the world.

#65 Posted by RealJaysonguy (219 posts) -

@ttualumni13 said:

Realjaysonguy is definitely not Jaysonguy, Jaysonguy knows how to get a point across without writing a novel :P

But seriously, how is this debate not ended already? Spankys. Burgers. Fly in, get a He-man-woman-hater with a side of fried cheese. Best burger in the world.

Haha, I don't like to leave holes in my arguments, especially when I'm writing in a hostile world like an internet forum (or maybe it's just because trolls can't read long passages, letting me talk with civilized, well-mannered, and reasonable human beings, who knows for sure?).

#66 Posted by TheGreatUnown (18 posts) -

So, we're just gonna ignore The Wonderful 101, Nintendoland, Steel Diver, Pushmo, the Wii series, Chibi Robo, and others listed here:

http://kyoto-report.wikidot.com/forum/t-469495

#67 Edited by JordanElek (17872 posts) -

@TheGreatUnown said:

So, we're just gonna ignore The Wonderful 101, Nintendoland, Steel Diver, Pushmo, the Wii series, Chibi Robo, and others listed here:

http://kyoto-report.wikidot.com/forum/t-469495

We won't ignore them, but everyone else already has. The point of this thread is that hardly anyone is interested in buying the WiiU, and Nintendo needs to do something different in order to change that. That list is a list of things that haven't worked.

Except the Wii series. Nintendo had never done anything like it before, and neither had anyone else. The Wonderful 101 and Nintendoland are both unique experiences, and I love them both, but they're not the kind of games that have sold people on the console.

Edit: I get what you mean, though, after thinking about it a bit more. Nintendo HAS been doing different things, so Jason's original point about same meals isn't totally valid. But it does apply to Nintendo's core franchises. They just aren't exciting people like they used to.

#68 Edited by inter_911 (509 posts) -

I think you are just hungry.

#69 Posted by DaBrainz (7673 posts) -

yeah those other companies are innovative and don't follow the same cookie cutter formula at all...

Pro tip: they do

#70 Posted by Arcotaju (7 posts) -

I find this thread a bit ironic considering the Wii U mechanically is more innovative than the PS4 or Xbox One. While the latter two are intended to play off of their higher horsepower and be pseudo-PC gaming and entertainment systems (which isn't a bad thing, just more predictable in expectations and function), the Wii U takes the bigger risk by having the gamepad as a extra layer of gameplay potential. When it was revealed I definitely thought they were a bit crazy to release a tablet controller of all things. Having used it now I find it quite fun and engaging to have the second screen for gameplay in a similar manner as DS/3DS gaming was excellent with its duel-screen concept. When I play the PS4 or Xbox One, it feels like more of the same functionally. I'm engaging with their games in the same ways I was during the previous console generation, while the Wii U feels fresher to play.

Even saying that I do think Nintendo over-uses Mario as a core character element, though Mario is a safe choice that sells and financially I can't blame them for their heavy reliance. People will get tired of it eventually though so they do have room for improvement. There's already a few out-there releases that don't take the same formula or characters, as has already been mentioned elsewhere in this thread and in the community in general.

While new concepts is something I'm fully in support of and always excited to try, to be blunt a lot of people do enjoy a degree of more-of-the-same also. That's why a lot of ongoing game series or concepts on all of the systems sell really well even with releases every year that functionally don't change the pace too much. One could argue that you could replace the name Nintendo and put entire genres to make the same points. There's definitely some validity to what the TC is trying to say, but it's not just about Nintendo but the entire gaming industry that's at fault here. Indie game developers have helped counter some of it though. This thread is much better suited for a console-wide discussion, because aiming it just at Nintendo makes it appear to be a mild trolling attempt by limiting reasonable observations to one portion of the industry (Nintendo).

#71 Posted by JordanElek (17872 posts) -

@arcotaju said:

This thread is much better suited for a console-wide discussion, because aiming it just at Nintendo makes it appear to be a mild trolling attempt by limiting reasonable observations to one portion of the industry (Nintendo).

But the WiiU is the console that isn't selling, and its best game isn't selling well, even considering the small install base. The WiiU basically has ONLY games published by Nintendo as selling points, so the fatigue is more stark there.

#72 Edited by Haziqonfire (36344 posts) -

Nintendo needs to get outside of it's comfort zone, but even then, I don't think people will care. Nintendo is a weird company, in which people complain when they drift too far away from what they're used to, but also get frustrated with the same old same old, despite how good it might be.

#73 Posted by superbuuman (2893 posts) -

More of things like Xenoblade...less of copy & paste Mario/Zelda/Kirby unto a new IP...if they have a new IP make a freaking new characters for it.

#74 Edited by RealJaysonguy (219 posts) -

@haziqonfire said:

Nintendo needs to get outside of it's comfort zone, but even then, I don't think people will care. Nintendo is a weird company, in which people complain when they drift too far away from what they're used to, but also get frustrated with the same old same old, despite how good it might be.

I don't really think it's any different than Xbox or Playstation fans, it just seems that both Playstation and Xbox supporters and haters populate the internet, while it's only the people that dislike Nintendo, or at least have a problem with how they conduct business, that show up in outlets like these. Perhaps the people who enjoy what Nintendo does well are too busy doing other things to combat all the hate; like playing Nintendo games, for example.

#75 Edited by lilkarlh666 (160 posts) -

Coming from someone who has only just purchased the 3ds, my factor to purchase one was most of the core franchises that i enjoy from nintendo are now there. It has 2 zelda games though one is just a remake, it has donkey kong another remake, bravely default a new ip that is superb, two possible monster hunter games one a remake, luigi's mansion and pokemon. The problem here is straight away, many are just remakes. Where is the new zelda, the new donkey kong.

For me the trouble with nintendo at the moment is they seem to lack a clear vision of their future. For instance, as soon as the ps4 and x1 was announced, we pretty much had a clear guide as to how many games were coming year one and year two. People can be confident that with their purchase, games are coming.

However, with the wii u specifically i don't really have any idea beyond next march/april. For me who really wants to buy a wii u but is struggling to due to this really getting annoying. I love nintendo i always have, they have some of the best franchises out of any of the developers, but like the op has said, they seem hell bent of rinsing and repeating the same game over and over. I skipped the wii entirely because of this and borrowed a friends to play the galaxy games along with the last story and mario strikers. This time they have released the other games that weren't there last time like pikmin, but where are the others. For nintendo to be successful they need to ensure that all of the key games from each ip is there.

My favourite console is still and always will be the gamecube because of that, it had every game imaginable from nintendo, however i can't see the wii u having this, all i ever hear from interviews is we have wii fit u this and and wii sports that. If you want to capture those of us who have left you really need the key games. I don't want another gamecube, but it would certainly be nice to have those games done in a modern way and at least a start to make up for the wii.

#76 Posted by ceromaster (200 posts) -

I have to agree with Jasonguy. The thing I see about this whole predicament with Nintendo is what many Nintendo fanboys refuse to see. Nobody outside of the last pool of the Nintendo fanbase is even interested in Nintendo. I see a number of you taking potshots at Sony and MS but you really don't realize that a console doesn't really need to be innovative to sell well, it just needs to have a larger variety of games and if you think I'm wrong just look at the PS4...it's basically just PS3.5 and it's selling like hotcakes, and the X-One is just Kinect 2.0 and it's doing well too. Hell, would you guys believe that some pple don't even know what the Wii-U is supposed to be? There are parents and kids and even some gamers that think the Wii-U is just a special type of Wii controller....when it came to Nintendo trying to 'innovate' they dropped the ball.

You guys can shake your heads all you want but Nintendo is failing, and the sad thing is that if Nintendo hadn't decided to rush out the Wii-U, maybe they could have used their heads and came up with an actual plan, rather than hope that they'd be able to draw in suckers like they did for the Wii. They need more games. Either they bring back some older franchises that hasn't had any action in a while or they focus on making new franchises, or better yet they swallow their egos and play nice with other developers and publishers so that they can get some of that third party support that they obviously lack. Nintendo has been in business for a long time, but these days they're taking some really dumb stances.

#77 Edited by Ovirew (6393 posts) -

Maybe I can provide some perspective here as someone who has been on-again, off-again with Nintendo for over a decade, and recently returned to them again at the age of 25.

I think the thing that I like about Nintendo most, is that they make quality games, and they make the kinds of games I like. Regardless of whether or not the games they make are 'cutting-edge' or 'original', I think Nintendo makes the kinds of games I like, that nobody else can really make. And I keep coming back to them because, deep down, those are the game experiences that I like the best.

It also seems like Nintendo cares more about video games, and gamers, than their competition - regardless of how former Nintendo fans might feel. I've been with the Sony camp and I've been with the Microsoft camp before, and I don't think that either company cares as much about preserving the classics as Nintendo does.

Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Mario Bros., Animal Crossing - to name a few. There will never be anything quite like any of these game series', nothing with nearly that level of quality. There hasn't been yet, I doubt there ever will be - it won't be the same. It won't have that Nintendo 'charm'. Give me a brand new Nintendo game, and I'm interested - as long as it's decent quality.

Now when Nintendo does introduce a new IP, or does something different with an existing IP, that is a real treat, and goes far in proving that Nintendo is a creative company. It doesn't happen often, or as often as I'd like it to, but when it does it's usually amazing and has the same level of quality that I've come to expect from the company. Pikmin, nothing like it. Luigi's Mansion, nothing like it. Odama, nothing comes close.

Sony and Microsoft do have their strengths. I would go so far as to say that Sony has the best middle-ground in today's modern gaming industry, and boasts the most experimental titles with its Tokyo studio. I'd say Microsoft produces the best online multiplayer titles for consoles, and is number one at marketing services and new system features. But you know, I think I could live without Sony and Microsoft - if one fails, the other will absorb it. But nobody can fill the hole that would be left behind if Nintendo ceased to produce games.

Nintendo might make questionable, pathetic, or downright poor business decisions. Nintendo might be behind the times, have horrible services, and do little to inspire confidence in the majority of gamers. But Nintendo is perhaps the most professional gaming company of all, and its workers don't give up just because most of their fans grew up and abandoned them. They keep right on going, and doing what they've always done best.