Has Nintendo abandoned us? A hard-core analysis of the Wii's performance

Prompted by more complaints recently as well as an attempt to squelch them by comparing Nintendo titles on Wii to those on past consoles, I have decided to post this more in depth comparison of the GameCube and Wii, all with the purpose of answering the question: is Nintendo abandoning us, the gamers?

Technical information: All data is compiled from GameRankings, and average scores refer to metascores in their databank. "Good titles" are defined as those with averages that are equal to or greater than 75% (≥75%). "Not good titles" are defined as those with averages that are under 75%. "Nintendo titles" are defined as games that Nintendo has developed and/or published. "New Nintendo franchises" are defined as those that appeared for the first time in North America or Europe (Japan-only releases are not included in the numbers presented.)

Because the GameCube and Wii were launched within one day of each other (separated by five years though, of course) in North America, it's perfect for making a year-by-year comparison.

Table 1. A comparison of the GC and Wii in their first, second, and third years on the market. Total number of reviewed titles, the number of good titles, the percent of good titles among all titles, the number of Nintendo titles, the number of good Nintendo titles, and the percent of good Nintendo titles among all Nintendo titles are shown for each year. While the Wii has consistently had more games available for it than the GC in each corresponding year of release, the quality of the library (see "good titles as % of total") each year has consistently been much lower, the number of North American and European Nintendo titles has been nearly the same in all but one year (Nintendo only published one more title on Wii than on GC each corresponding year of release except second year), the number of North American and European Nintendo titles in proportion to third party titles has been lower every year except second year, and the quality of Nintendo's library (see "good Ninty titles as % of total Ninty") has either tied the GC (in first year) or been lower than the GC (in second and third year.)

Graphical representations of these three comparisons follow.

Graph 1. A diagram illustrating the good titles (in green) as a percent of total titles released in year 1, 2, and 3 for GC and Wii. For every corresponding year of release, the GC had more good games as a percent of total, indicated by longer green bars, than the Wii. This means that the quality of each corresponding year's new releases was higher on GC than on Wii.

Graph 2. A diagram illustrating the Nintendo titles (in blue) as a percent of total titles released in year 1, 2, and 3 for GC and Wii. In two of the first three corresponding years of release (years 1 and 3) the GC had more Nintendo titles as a percent of total, indicated by longer blue bars, than the Wii. This means that, in proportion to the success of the console as indicated by third party support, Nintendo provided more support to the GC than it is currently providing for Wii.

Graph 3. A diagram illustrating the good Nintendo titles (in green) as a percent of total Nintendo titles released in year 1, 2, and 3 for GC and Wii. For every corresponding year of release, the number of good Nintendo titles as a percent of total has either been the same (in year 1) or been lower, indicated by shorter green bars, on Wii than on the GC (in year 2 and 3.) This means that the quality of each corresponding year's new Nintendo releases was higher on GC than on Wii in all but the first year of release, when they tied. The gap between the quality of Nintendo titles on the GC and on the Wii widens dramatically over the course of three years.

But that's not all that is interesting to compare...

Table 2. A comparison of Nintendo titles for GC and Wii in their first, second, and third years on the market. The franchise names that were new or continued for each year on each console are shown. Titles in small italics are coming out by the end of 2008. Titles followed by a superscript "JP" were released in Japan only and are not counted towards totals in Table 1. Every year, GC had more new Nintendo franchises than Wii. Only in Year 2 did the Wii have more continued Nintendo franchises than the GC.

What's interesting to note is exactly what these franchises were. The GC era introduced us to the universes of Pikmin, Eternal Darkness, and Animal Crossing, to name a few. The Wii era introduced us to Wii Sports, Crossbow Training, and Endless Ocean, to name all. Looking at the lists of new franchises introduced each corresponding year, you can see that while the GC brought new IP in the form of core games for gamers, the Wii has only brought us casual titles and mini-games. Endless Ocean doesn't present the kind of challenge that Pikmin did, and Wii Sports won't absorb you like Eternal Darkness did.It's fair to say that in the Wii era, Nintendo has been and continues to focus its research and development exclusively on the casual market. It's also fair to say that Nintendo hasn't been and continues not to focus as much on R&D (of new franchises) as it did last generation.

So in conclusion, has Nintendo abandoned us, the gamers? While surely there's a bit of hyperbole to that complaint (Nintendo is still continuing some of its popular franchises from the past) it is certainly not without truth. R&D is focused on the casual market so we're not seeing new titles of the caliber that we saw on GC, the quality of Nintendo's releases was higher on the GC in all but the first year of release, Nintendo generally provided more support to the GC than it is to the Wii, and overall, the quality of new releases was higher on GC than on Wii in each corresponding year.

It is perfectly valid to be disappointed with the Wii and be worried about the implications this has for gamers. All we know of Nintendo's 2009 lineup is that we'll see Wii Sports Resort. I wonder if Nintendo will ever again come out with new IP that aren't a mini-games, casual titles, or gimmicks with peripherals.

(EDIT 08/21/08: Wii Play/Chess/Fit/Music/Sports are the Wii Series rather than each being new franchises; removed JP-only Puzzle Collection and Giftpia from GC Year 3 data; removed VC re-release F-Zero X from Wii Year 2 data. All data and graphs altered to reflect these changes. Graphical trends remain unchanged.)

Let me ask you something. Do you only buy Nintendo games? If yes, your topic means nothing.

Seriously, there's more Core 3rd party games this year. I buy 3rd party games and I bought more 3rd party games than 1st party on all my Nintendo consoles except the N64.

while i think arguements on both sides tend to over simplify the issue the point i would like to bring up is that nintendo is only one developer, this year we already had mario kart and super smash bros, if it were any other developer we would have been content with two amazing title in a year nintendo has encountered the problem every guy does on valentines day when buying gifts if you keep raising the bar you will eventually fail to meet it, i think we should let them slide on this year and just conside wii music miyamoto's mid-life crisis, everyone get's onejomaster007

I think you're missing the point of the thread.

But if you want to go that route, note that Nintendo has 4 more titles set for 2008. Zoo Games has 18, Electronic Arts has 12, Majesco has 9, Activision has 5, and so does Disney Interactive - and that's only counting their Wii titles. Each year except year 2, Nintendo has released fewer games on Wii than they did in the corresponding year on GC.

Industry pundits seem to be a little worried about Wii's lack of keeping 3rd party devs in the loop, as well. Introducing new hardware at E3 was apparently news to a lot of devs, which doesn't seem like proper protocol for embracing 3rd parties.

To me, it seems like Wii has come out of the gate very well, and the hype is still selling units as fast as they come out. I have nothing against Nintendo, and nothing against people who love their Wiis, I just haven't been able to get into any of the games. The last Nintendo game I bought was Twilight Princess for my Gamecube, and so far (and looking to the future), I'm pretty content with that.

2008. In years 1 and 2, GC had more new Nintendo franchises than Wii.

What's interesting to note is exactly what these franchises were. The GC era introduced us to the universes of Pikmin, Eternal Darkness, and Animal Crossing, to name a few. The Wii era introduced us to Wii Sports/Play/Fit/Chess/Music. Looking at the lists of new franchises introduced each corresponding year, you can see that while the GC brought new IP in the form of core games for gamers, the Wii has only brought us casual titles and mini-games. Endless Ocean doesn't present the kind of challenge that Pikmin did, and Wii Play won't absorb you like Eternal Darkness did. It's fair to say that in the Wii era, Nintendo has been and continues to focus its research and development exclusively on the casual market.

So in conclusion, has Nintendo abandoned us, the gamers? While surely there's a bit of hyperbole to that complaint (Nintendo is still continuing some of its popular franchises from the past) it is certainly not without truth. R&D is focused on the casual market so we're not seeing new titles of the caliber that we saw on GC, the quality of Nintendo's releases was higher on the GC in all but the first year of release, Nintendo provided more support to the GC than it is to the Wii, and overall, the quality of new releases was higher on GC than on Wii in each corresponding year.

It is perfectly valid to be disappointed with the Wii and be worried about the implications this has for gamers. All we know of Nintendo's 2009 lineup is that we'll see Wii Sports Resort. I wonder if Nintendo will ever again come out with new IP that aren't a mini-games, casual titles, or gimmicks with peripherals.

clicketyclick

Let me be the first to say WOW. You did a lot to prove your point. What you forgot to consider in the amount of time and effort it takes to CREATE a new IP, the amount of time it takes to MAKE and DEVELOP a new idea and even continue a past franchise and you also forgot to analyze the impact of natural disasters continuing to go on in Japan that also slows these things down. Nintendo is also currently trying to get more people involved in gaming and since the Wii is a family console which is why a number of its new franchises may seem casual. We don't know what Nintendo's 2009 lineup is beyond Wii Sports Resort and most likely Nintendo won't tell us until the game's release date is near. This is because Nintendo is very secretive and doesn't reveal much of its hardcore stuff until much closer to the game's release date. This is so that the game doesn't feel overhyped and that people don't buy the game with completely unreal expectations.

Also, where did you get your facts from and who are you to say which games are good and bad? Games appeal to different types of people so just because they don't sell millions doesn't mean the game was bad. Maybe there was a flaw in the marketing of the game or maybe it was because it had a different level of gameplay that felt awkward which was why people didn't buy it. Nintendo is giving more 3rd party developers a chance to develop high great gamesfor their console that can give the Wii better support. If Nintendo just supported itself then they wouldn't be a very favorable company to deal with from a developing/publishing point of view.

Nintendo hasn't abandoned us and if you looked closer you'd notice that. They've just signed on a new studio called Lighthouse Games and they are seeking out other developers to make, re-develop or newly create ideas for their console. Looks are Wario Land: Shake It!, that is the first game that a 'new on the scene' company named Good Feel has made and that game looks excellent. Nintendo knows that Shigeru Miyamoto won't be at Nintnedo forever so they are readying other developers to get up to speed and re-create Nintendo's franchises. The game industry isn't the same as it used to be so you'll just have to adapt.

From the sounds of it more 3rd party developers are making games for the Wii. This is partly due to the fact that the Wii has the most consoles in circulation as of a few days ago. Also if I remember correctly Nintendo has been working very hard to get more 3rd party developers better tools to help them create better games that aren't just a port from another system. That said I feel that Nintendo has upped its game and in the next year or two we will begin to see some more great things coming from Nintendo and 3rd party devs.briancporter13

I'd have to agree with you on that statement. Nintendo has just announced since E3 that Motion-Plus will be an attachment for the Wiimote. Wii also has Wiiware under its umbrella-ella (I just couldn't resist). The next thing we'll start seeing after MotionPlus is out is Wiiware titles with Motion-Plus support. From the Motion-Plus announcement alone I know that will get developers thinking about new ideas as well as get Nintendo back to the drawing board and planning new ideas on existing IPs as well as new ones. We already have Captain Rainbow from them, nobody expected that. The Wii is an innovative console which can have a million different types of games, you just have to use your imagination and get your idea out there. On another note Wii's new IPs Sadness and Disaster: Day of Crisis are still brewing with pretty good progress and the studio that was making Hammer must have something going on since it got cancelled. Things take time and Nintendo has the task to cater to everyone now so I can wait.

I'm sorry to tell you this people but its just games, not the most important thing in the world.zoocage

Then why are you on a forum discussing games? The TC does bring up a point ( I too have been disappointed with Nintendo of the late ) but good game DO take time to develop. That still doesn't excuse them for not at least ANNOUNCING a hardcore game for over a year.

[QUOTE="zoocage"]I'm sorry to tell you this people but its just games, not the most important thing in the world.toadster101

Then why are you on a forum discussing games? The TC does bring up a point ( I too have been disappointed with Nintendo of the late ) but good game DO take time to develop. That still doesn't excuse them for not at least ANNOUNCING a hardcore game for over a year.

Industry pundits seem to be a little worried about Wii's lack of keeping 3rd party devs in the loop, as well. Introducing new hardware at E3 was apparently news to a lot of devs, which doesn't seem like proper protocol for embracing 3rd parties.jazztrumpet5

Certainly not, and that's not the only time they've given 3rd parties the shaft. I think Nintendo is partly responsible for 3rd party devs' failures.

As the President of Square Enix said, "Nintendo has been doing really well, and DS particularly is enjoying a great boom. But when it comes to games for core gamers, it's quite weak. Sooner or later core gamers will become impatient, and there'll be a point where 'real' games will resume growth, but it's not happening at the moment."

What you forgot to consider in the amount of time and effort it takes to CREATE a new IP, the amount of time it takes to MAKE and DEVELOP a new idea and even continue a past franchiselivinitup01

That is not something I can analyse. However, as I have shown, whatever the amount of time and money it takes to develop new IP, Nintendo was doing more of it during the era of their unsuccessful, unprofitable console than in the era of their massively successful, hugely profitable console. And of that new IP developed for Wii, none are core games for gamers.

and you also forgot to analyze the impact of natural disasters continuing to go on in Japan that also slows these things down.livinitup01

Again, not something that can be analysed. But despite a few hundreds of millions of dollars in losses on account of the strengthening yen, Nintendo is still reporting profits just shy of 4 billion dollars... for one fiscal quarter. And their profits are on the rise. Nintendo doesn't seem to be suffering all that greatly despite the strengthening yen and "natural disasters". And with those gobs of money, you think they'd be able to put out more first-party titles than they did on the GC, but they aren't.

We don't know what Nintendo's 2009 lineup is beyond Wii Sports Resort and most likely Nintendo won't tell us until the game's release date is near. This is because Nintendo is very secretive and doesn't reveal much of its hardcore stuff until much closer to the game's release date. This is so that the game doesn't feel overhyped and that people don't buy the game with completely unreal expectations.livinitup01

Isn't it lovely how Ninty takes care of us, like Big Brother. So are you making up this rationalisation or did you read it somewhere? In any case, might I respond to you in the immortal words of Wintry_Flutist, speaking at a time when he was less bitter and his top hat was more jaunty: "I wonder what exactly makes you all think good things, specially Zelda games, take years to be announced? Time to realize a few rock hard facts!" You can read on to get schooled by him.

Also, where did you get your facts from and who are you to say which games are good and bad?Games appeal to different types of people so just because they don't sell millions doesn't mean the game was bad.livinitup01

In the very second paragraph, I explained all the technical information. Games getting a metascore average at or above 75% are categorised as "good titles". It has nothing to do with sales.

Looks are Wario Land: Shake It!, that is the first game that a 'new on the scene' company named Good Feel has made and that game looks excellent.livinitup01

It's on the list of Nintendo titles I provided in Table 2.

nintendo always keep theyre stuff hidden so settle down they have stuff comingKeenzach

Nintendo has announced everything that is coming out for 2008. The comparison is from 2006 to the end of 2008 and the corresponding three years of release for GC.

[QUOTE="Keenzach"]nintendo always keep theyre stuff hidden so settle down they have stuff comingclicketyclick

Nintendo has announced everything that is coming out for 2008. The comparison is from 2006-2008 and the corresponding three years of release for GC.

If thats all they anounced for the rest of 2008 Im still content we got animal crossing and wario what more do you want from them

I just have one thing to say, Just because your not the one getting the attention like all the prvious year you have to go and do stuff that will get them to pay attention to you again. Sure, maybe your not doing this for that reason, but if a little kid gets ignored by a parent for X reason, wut does the kid do? He starts whining most likely till he gets the attention back. Nintendo most likely trust their fans to stay with them while they give most of their attention to their new audience.

Unfortunetly, if they were to give equal attention to both audiences, the fans would think they're getting ripped off because, for every game we get they seem to get 2 or 3. To them, them those 2-3 games equal the same amount of attention as the one game we get, but the fans are just looking more of quantity and most likely ignore the games quality. We could get one excellent game and they get 3 mediocre game and we'll complain because they got more game. We could get one awsome game and they get 2 that are awsome, but the game we got do both of the things those games done and we'll complain because they got 2 games while we got one eventhough it's those2 games in one.

Like everything, this doesn't apply to everything and everyone, but this is wut you notice the most in these topics. Ppl, be patient, we arn't nintendo's greatest concern right now. It may look like were getting ignored and such, but it's most likely not true. They being slower on giving us wut we want so they can give more to the other, but that doesn't mean Nintendo has left us.

Well so much for only saying one thing. :p

I just have one thing to say, Just because your not the one getting the attention like all the prvious year you have to go and do stuff that will get them to pay attention to you again. Sure, maybe your not doing this for that reason, but if a little kid gets ignored by a parent for X reason, wut does the kid do? He starts whining most likely till he gets the attention back. Nintendo most likely trust their fans to stay with them while they give most of their attention to their new audience.

Unfortunetly, if they were to give equal attention to both audiences, the fans would think they're getting ripped off because, for every game we get they seem to get 2 or 3. To them, them those 2-3 games equal the same amount of attention as the one game we get, but the fans are just looking more of quantity and most likely ignore the games quality. We could get one excellent game and they get 3 mediocre game and we'll complain because they got more game. We could get one awsome game and they get 2 that are awsome, but the game we got do both of the things those games done and we'll complain because they got 2 games while we got one eventhough it's those2 games in one.

Like everything, this doesn't apply to everything and everyone, but this is wut you notice the most in these topics. Ppl, be patient, we arn't nintendo's greatest concern right now. It may look like were getting ignored and such, but it's most likely not true. They being slower on giving us wut we want so they can give more to the other, but that doesn't mean Nintendo has left us.

Well so much for only saying one thing. :p

LINK2207

we are not being ignored at all you are right we got so many games from them just allready

If thats all they anounced for the rest of 2008 Im still content we got animal crossing and wario what more do you want from them

Keenzach

New IP that is not casual/minigame, higher quality games - at least match the level of quality of their games on GC, more first party games than they released on GC, and of course, better third party support (please see Jazztrumpet's comment and my response to him.) And since I'm not interested in Wario and we've already played Animal Crossing before on GC, it would also be nice to get some other titles for the holidays, but whatev, I'd be happy with new IP that didn't start with the word "Wii".

At first glance, your analysis does appear to have something really interesting going for it. However, the problem I'm currently finding with your assessment is that so much is still based on opinion. Even if it's the opinion of the majority of people, it's still just that, and when trying to make something a fact, it's almost impossible to use opinions in this manner. Even if the scores from Gamerankings indicate that some of Nintendo's Wii offerings haven't been as impressive as those of the GCN era to most people, saying that Nintendo is abandoning its 'core' consumer base is still very much a stretch. You also can't make true claims as to which franchises are more important than others in regards to obtain a certain user base, even if some games have elements that would be more suitable for a more experienced gamer. It's not as if the "hardcore" gamer can't play games like Endless Ocean or Wii Fit if they had the desire to, and it wouldn't be the most-mindblowing thing in the world if a less experience gamer got their hands on Animal Crossing or Pikmin. What this comes down to is the preferences of a particular gamer, and not really the entire core audience.

With that being said, what I see this coming down to is the relationship between the number of Nintendo's games and the third party games. However, just because the percentage of third game games are higher on the Wii doesn't mean that Nintendo has been doing less. Keep in mind that at this point in the GCN's life, it was already starting to lose a lot of support because of the disappointing sales of third party software. In contrast to that, the Wii has gained support because developers have gotten away from the fear of developing for the system and are now trying to take advantage of the system's unprecedented success. To really guage what Nintendo has done during pretty much the same period, you'll have to look at the number of games in this case. According to the chart of franchises that Nintendo has released, it looks like the Wii will have a slight advantage by the end of the year, too (29 to 27, counting the two GCN Zelda games in 2003).

So yeah, while you COULD say that Nintendo has abandoned its faithful, you could also say that they've done anything but that. As it stands now, it's still way too flimsy of a topic to really come to a conclusion on, as people are going to speak their minds according to how they have enjoyed the experience thus far. Once again, it may be a popular opinion, but that doesn't make it true.

Even if the scores from Gamerankings indicate that some of Nintendo's Wii offerings haven't been as impressive as those of the GCN era to most people, saying that Nintendo is abandoning its 'core' consumer base is still very much a stretch.Madmangamer364

It's quite lucky that I never said it then. ;) In fact, I said it was a stretch; I said it was hyperbole.

In any case, metascores are the least biased method of determining whether a game is "good" or not. It is difficult to use metascores to say that one title is better than another because it got a 94% and the other got a 93%, but I think we can pretty much agree that they are both good games.

You also can't make true claims as to which franchises are more important than others in regards to obtain a certain user base, even if some games have elements that would be more suitable for a more experienced gamer.Madmangamer364

Good thing I never did that either. I merely declared that games like Wii Fit and Endless Ocean are not like Pikmin and Eternal Darkness. They are casual titles and mini-games. I cannot say that you won't enjoy them, but I can demonstrate that Nintendo isn't producing as many games that are considered "good" by the industry as they were before. I am merely saying that people's expressions of their disappointment and lack of enjoyment should not be silenced, because they have a valid point.

With that being said, what I see this coming down to is the relationship between the number of Nintendo's games and the third party games. However, just because the percentage of third game games are higher on the Wii doesn't mean that Nintendo has been doing less.Madmangamer364

Which is why I provided the hard numbers in Table 1 so you could see for yourself that Nintendo has been doing less in every year except Year 2, as I said before.

Nintendo is getting new developers & employees up to speed while training the next generation of hardcore. Chill, more will come.

Nintendo is getting new developers & employees up to speed while training the next generation of hardcore. Chill, more will come.

N-One

Pics/links or it didn't happen.

Nothing like a few graphs to liven up a dying board. :|chazasul

That's my motto! :D *hits chazasul in the face with a pie-chart*

Wow, must of those charts were opinions.randomguy15

How do you figure?

Yeah, Nintendo's going in a new direction. Anyone who couldn't see that without a bunch of charts and graphs is in denial (and especially so if they still don't see it). Obviously we're not abandoned, there's lots of games to look forward to. But we're certainly not as important as we used to be.

Of course, for this to really be a complete comparison you'll need to gather this information for all Ninty consoles to make sure that the GC era wasn't just a Ninty production spike. Maybe the amount of support they're giving the Wii is actually the normal amount. Let us know when you get that done ;)

Of course, for this to really be a complete comparison you'll need to gather this information for all Ninty consoles to make sure that the GC era wasn't just a Ninty production spike. Maybe the amount of support they're giving the Wii is actually the normal amount. Let us know when you get that done ;)

presto7640

Lol, ya. I just wondered how many more charts people could bear. The problem though with older consoles is that no-one had teh interwebz back then and so the reviews are few and far between, and so the full libraries don't necessarily make it into the databank, and the ones that do don't always have professional scores, so it's hard to compare.

It would be interesting to compare SNES to Wii, but I'm sure that even if I could, people would cry foul, citing increased production costs from 2D to 3D and from such a long time ago. When comparing the GC to the Wii, well, the production costs haven't risen all that much, seeing as the Wii isn't all that more powerful and it hasn't been that long.

[QUOTE="presto7640"]

Of course, for this to really be a complete comparison you'll need to gather this information for all Ninty consoles to make sure that the GC era wasn't just a Ninty production spike. Maybe the amount of support they're giving the Wii is actually the normal amount. Let us know when you get that done ;)

clicketyclick

Lol, ya. I just wondered how many more charts people could bear. The problem though with older consoles is that no-one had teh interwebz back then and so the reviews are few and far between, and so the full libraries don't necessarily make it into the databank, and the ones that do don't always have professional scores, so it's hard to compare.

It would be interesting to compare SNES to Wii, but I'm sure that even if I could, people would cry foul, citing increased production costs from 2D to 3D and from such a long time ago. When comparing the GC to the Wii, well, the production costs haven't risen all that much, seeing as the Wii isn't all that more powerful and it hasn't been that long.

I see your point! Just joking anyway :)

Technical information: All data is compiled from GameRankings,

clicketyclick

I see your point! Just joking anyway :)

presto7640

I figured :P

Maybe I could compile reviews from The Angry Video Game Nerd instead?

That's how i figure.randomguy15

Well thank you for explaining yourself so thoroughly and clearly. :)

In any case, I've got to run now. Will be back tomorrow to point out how people didn't actually read the OP. :D

[QUOTE="presto7640"]

I see your point! Just joking anyway :)

clicketyclick

I figured :P

Maybe I could compile reviews from The Angry Video Game Nerd instead?

That's how i figure.randomguy15

Well thank you for explaining yourself so thoroughly and clearly. :)

In any case, I've got to run now. Will be back tomorrow to point out how people didn't actually read the OP. :D

I did read it, and that was real cool how you tried to be funny by erasing what i first said:roll:randomguy15

You were quoting me. I erased what I said so we wouldn't have a massive quote string. What I quoted was all that you wrote. Anyways, now I really do have to go.

[QUOTE="randomguy15"]I did read it, and that was real cool how you tried to be funny by erasing what i first said:roll:clicketyclick

You were quoting me. I erased what I said so we wouldn't have a massive quote string. What I quoted was all that you wrote. Anyways, now I really do have to go.

I cannot say that you won't enjoy them, but I can demonstrate that Nintendo isn't producing as many games that are considered "good" by the industry as they were before.

clicketyclick

**** the "industry". The "industry" is what makes gaming stale and boring. In a previous post you suggested that Nintendo's secrecy could be compared to Big Brother. Well, the "industry" is Big Brother.

The "industry" tells us which games to buy, tells us that we will not like (insert "casual" game here), and encourages basing an experience not off of personal preference, but a 10-point scale. That's not how I like to live my life.

See, I've played games that cater to "casual" crowds and ones that are made for the "hardcore" audience as well, and I enjoy both in different respects. Does that mean that my opinion and preference doesn't matter as much in the "hardcore" sense, because I enjoy playing a round of Mario Party every now and then?

Maybe this isn't about Nintendo "abandoning us", maybe it's about the fact that certain gamers are too stubborn to step out of their little world and expand to new genres, let alone try games that get less than 75% (*Gasp!*:o Shovelware!!! :roll: ).

It's not so bad over here on the outside, you know. We get the best of both worlds. It is as if almost every game holds potential to be enjoyable for us.

You should try it.

[QUOTE="clicketyclick"]

I cannot say that you won't enjoy them, but I can demonstrate that Nintendo isn't producing as many games that are considered "good" by the industry as they were before.

bob_newman

**** the "industry". The "industry" is what makes gaming stale and boring. In a previous post you suggested that Nintendo's secrecy could be compared to Big Brother. Well, the "industry" is Big Brother.

The "industry" tells us which games to buy, tells us that we will not like (insert "casual" game here), and encourages basing an experience not off of personal preference, but a 10-point scale. That's not how I like to live my life.

See, I've played games that cater to "casual" crowds and ones that are made for the "hardcore" audience as well, and I enjoy both in different respects. Does that mean that my opinion and preference doesn't matter as much in the "hardcore" sense, because I enjoy playing a round of Mario Party every now and then?

Maybe this isn't about Nintendo "abandoning us", maybe it's about the fact that certain gamers are too stubborn to step out of their little world and expand to new genres, let alone try games that get less than 75% (*Gasp!*:o Shovelware!!! :roll: ).

It's not so bad over here on the outside, you know. We get the best of both worlds. It is as if almost every game holds potential to be enjoyable for us.

You should try it.

Yeah, I'm just like that too although some shovelware games just shouldn't even be made. It's one thing to make a game for the child-oriented market while making sure the game is relatively easy and all the controls work BUT it's a completely different thing when the level design is incomplete or doesn't work 100% and the gameplay is relatively boring. The incomplete game that doesn't work all the time and probably cost about $50 to make is what I dub shovelware. Games which are complete, work fine but are called 'casual' I may give a try, as long as the game makes sense and it is fun. E.g. Wii Sports, Mercury Meltdown, Endless Ocean. When you can appreciate the best of both worlds then you'll find yourself complaining less and less about 'the industry' Clicketyclick. Are you trying to make us doubt Nintendo and stop buying the products we love or something? Seems pretty devious.

These graphs and stats really amuse me. Why bother? It's pretty simple if you ask me. If you like the system and games, then play them. If you don't, then don't.

Wow. I find it amusing that someone has backed up the notion that the Gamecube then was better than the Wii now in terms of good games. Allow me to voice this opinion. The Gamecube sucked. Need I say more? Seriously, yeah the Gamecube had a lot of innovation such as Pikmin etc., but overall it was stale. I have enjoyed my Wii far more than the Gamecube.

You may have many charts there, and I appreciate that. However, it must be considered that Nintendo is pioneering a new area of gaming, motion controls. Motion controls allow for more imersive experience in the game. The problem is that this is untested. Which is one reason why it has had failures with some games etc.

While your data is data, the point of Nintendo abandoning the hardcore players cannot not be founded. Why? Well because of the free markets. Nintendo makes tons of money off of the hardcore. Why would they give up all that cash. That is like only eating part of a delicious cookie which doesn't make sense because in the world of the free markets everyone wants to eat an entire cookie. Nintendo has made clear that it knows that standing still spells doom. So this trend of lack of first party games will not continue. I still think Nintendo has released some really great games this year. Also, lets not forget that Nintendo released MK and SSBB earlier this year. The conclusion of Nintendo abandoning us makes no sense whatsoever.

I get tired of seeing core gamers being bashed, just as I'm sure casual gamers tire of being bashed as well. Just because we liked gaming the way it was and would still enjoy playing games of the same ilk, we are branded nerds, or scared to expand our minds.. well excuse me but we were playing video games before most of the casuals even glanced at a console. I think experience wise, hardcore gamers have a right to analyse the current state of gaming.

Seriously, casual players have only just come into the market and already they are sounding like they know it all. Give is some credit for being into the industry for many years please.

On topic: I think the graphs demonstrate very well the current state of casual vs hardcore. What I've seen in this topic to argue against it isn't relevant. "They have more coming" < Well show me then? You can't, because they haven't announced them, so how can you be sure? If you wish to argue against the topic starters post, you'd better come up with some black and white figures of your own, cause as far as debating goes, you won't get far after such a well thought out, and backed up argument.

I get tired of seeing core gamers being bashed, just as I'm sure casual gamers tire of being bashed as well. Just because we liked gaming the way it was and would still enjoy playing games of the same ilk, we are branded nerds, or scared to expand our minds.. well excuse me but we were playing video games before most of the casuals even glanced at a console. I think experience wise, hardcore gamers have a right to analyse the current state of gaming.

Seriously, casual players have only just come into the market and already they are sounding like they know it all. Give is some credit for being into the industry for many years please.

On topic: I think the graphs demonstrate very well the current state of casual vs hardcore. What I've seen in this topic to argue against it isn't relevant. "They have more coming" < Well show me then? You can't, because they haven't announced them, so how can you be sure? If you wish to argue against the topic starters post, you'd better come up with some black and white figures of your own, cause as far as debating goes, you won't get far after such a well thought out, and backed up argument.

SolemnJedi79

Nintendo isn't abandoning us hardcore players. As I have said already it goes against their history. They want to make more money, then they aren't going to give up on a multi-million dollar audience of hardcore gamers (I would think that we are worth more though). It doesn't make economic sense. To give up on us means the loss of tons of money.

Also, about more games. Nintendo has always been secretive of their games. They have a pattern. So it would not be without good reason to say that they have more, if not a lot more.

This is where it gets funny.

first off Gamecube in 2003.

here is the 14 games nintendo published.

1080° Avalanche
F-Zero GX
Kirby Air Ride
The Legend of Zelda Collector's Edition
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Master Quest
The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker
Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour
Mario Kart: Double Dash!!
Mario Party 5
Pokémon Channel
Wario World
Dōbutsu no Mori e-Plus (Japan Only)
GiFTPiA (Japan Only)
Nintendo Puzzle Collection (Japan Only)

Now lets take away the japan only games because you said we wont use them

now lets take away the non "good games"

1080° Avalanche
F-Zero GX
The Legend of Zelda Collector's Edition
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Master Quest
The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker
Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour
Mario Kart: Double Dash!!

Only 7 good nintendo published games for the gamecube in 2003

Now skip ahead 5 years and lets take a look at 2008 for wii.

you said right now we have 8 ninendo games for the wii. but you are including wii ware, which is unfair. Lets take that out and look at the ninty games we have..

Umm wii fit, SSBB, Mario kart, and endless ocean (as of right now)

3/4 of those games are "good" (75%)

and by the end of the year animal crossing, super mario sluggers, and wii music will be added to that list as well. I am almost certain that these games will be "good" games.

so that makes it a 6/7 good games for nintendo. not to mention other games that could be realesed this year like disaster day of crisis. etc.

So i think 6/7 is better than the gamecubes 7/11

ok the gamecube had more games but so what we had more games the previous two years. so for that i give you this chart...