Why don't WW2 games ever touch on the tragidies of the Holocaust?

First off BEFORE anyone yells "anti semite" I am Jew myself (ethnically). Also Jews were not the only people who were murdered in the concentration camps.

Now that being said, in every WW2 game that I've played wether it be COD or whatever, they always just "skip" over the concentration camps in the game and just get to the end of the war. This bothers me for a couple reason.

1. I belive that games are an art form and I believe that if they touched on this subject (carefully and well done mind you) than it would add a much more emotional and mature storyline.

2. If movies do it, and TV shows do it, and books can do it, then why can't games do it? As long as your not playing as the Nazi and doing it then I have no problems with it. I remember watching "Shcindler's List" and how it really struck you emotionally and stayed with you long after the movie. I want to play a game that has that same effect, not just "yeah I killed a hundred nazis with my machine gun and now I beat the game. What an intense battle" I want the player to come away feeling something different and I don't know... feeling a like they played something a little more human you know.

One of the things that annoys me when people complain about video games and make the false claim that "games are not art" is that they use stroyline as an argument. I want to smash their "argument" and I feel this type of thing could do it. It doesn't even have to be the Holocaust it could be something else, as long as it does it respectfully and in a mature manner, I just think that the Holocaust has a better opportunity conisdering all the WW2 games that are made.

Lastly I would NOT be offended by the holocaust being in a game, and I say this as a Jew, as long as if it was done right.

Rant done lol, what do you think? Am I being insensitive and stupid, or am I right?

Games are a touchy subjects as it is. Adding something like that in a game may push some people over the edge.

It would be risky...

Look what happen when MOH allowed you to kill American troops as the Taliban, everyone flipped.

It's dangerous territory is all.

Video games have a bad enough rep with the media and the more ignorant public as it is. Plus it would be banned in many, many countries even if it was done tastefully. And no publisher wants that.

It would be risky...

Look what happen when MOH allowed you to kill American troops as the Taliban, everyone flipped.

VensInferno

Hell I think Valkyria Chronicles is the only game I've ever seen to get to having something like concentration camps.:?

Games are a touchy subjects as it is. Adding something like that in a game may push some people over the edge.

DSmon

That's the point of art though, to push the boundaries (well some of them anyway, there are places where I don't think it should go)

I love controversey because that's were you can see peoples true colors and find out if they really stand by what they say they believe in.

Every movement in history was controversial. When Lincoln freed the slaves that was controversial, when somebody wrote a document and stated that all men are created equal that was controversial, when Spielberg was making Schindler's List that was controversial because people wanted to stop it from being made due to fears of it being insensitive.

I want the game industry to get the SAME recognition as books or Hollywood movies do, but as long as the game industry is afraid to go forward with more mature and emotional situations, then it never will.

1.The media complains about the ability to kill a prostitute in GTA, They would be outraged no matter how well done it is

2. It would get banned in a lot of countries, and it would not sell well so most Publishers won't do it

3. and finally it would give more reasons for people to ban videogames from places.

I personally wouldn't mind if it was in taste, but i'm not the world.

same reason we don't have games about slavery

i cannazi the public responding positively to a game like this

thats a horrible idea

Because video games push enough buttons with the media as it is already.. As soon as they do something like that regardless of how they portray it the media would say something like "Video games are teaching your kids to kill jews!!!"

or something of that sort.

i cannazi the public responding positively to a game like this

Sky-

nice joke there buddy, Annefrankly it was unnecessary lol :P

I'm a Jew btw so I can do it.

I agree with you. I remember studying WW2 in school and thinking, WOW, they need to make a game about this! Oh wait...

But in a way, they really never made a game about it right. There is this impossible evil who truly could take over the world. I don't think that you should play an American mowing through Japan, but rather a European who moves through France and into the heart of Germany.

History is written by the victors, and the opposition is always given less justification. Germany was treated horribly after their defeat in WW1 and the way the Allies treated them after their defeat is what caused the German people to be so accepting and excited to embrace people like Hitler It absolutely does not justify what they did and I do not in any way support or condone their actions, but I think its an interesting time and an interesting showcase of human nature. No game has ever tried to humanize the war and tell it well. TBH, I feel like the story of the war is more fun to read in a text book than the story in any WW2 game. I don't know why this hasn't been attempted.

My real hope though is that they don't make more WW2 games, but base more games off WW2 (and I don't mean WW3). Killzone has an impressive universe, but even that isn't done very well in the game. I want to empathize with the people I'm shooting at, but have undeniable hate for the people commanding them. What drives man to commit such attrocities as the holocaust? I want to see it done right, I don't want it just to exist for shock value in any game.

Because video games push enough buttons with the media as it is already.. As soon as they do something like that regardless of how they portray it the media would say something like "Video games are teaching your kids to kill jews!!!"

or something of that sort.

VendettaRed07

Yeah you do have apoint, and I can defeinately see FOX news or NBC or whoever doing that.

Because video games are made to make money and they don't want to risk it on something like that.

thats a horrible idea

Chris_Williams

Whats horrible about having historical events in videogames?

[QUOTE="DSmon"]

Games are a touchy subjects as it is. Adding something like that in a game may push some people over the edge.

ShadowMoses900

That's the point of art though, to push the boundaries (well some of them anyway, there are places where I don't think it should go)

I love controversey because that's were you can see peoples true colors and find out if they really stand by what they say they believe in.

Every movement in history was controversial. When Lincoln freed the slaves that was controversial, when somebody wrote a document and stated that all men are created equal that was controversial, when Spielberg was making Schindler's List that was controversial because people wanted to stop it from being made due to fears of it being insensitive.

I want the game industry to get the SAME recognition as books or Hollywood movies do, but as long as the game industry is afraid to go forward with more mature and emotional situations, then it never will.

Gaming as a whole is still in it's infant years. Their was a time when art and science were censored because of controversial subjects. Gaming just needs to be more accpeted as a form of art before we get in to those subjects.

Because video games are made to make money and they don't want to risk it on something like that.

cain006

Movies are made to make money, books are made to make money, music is made to make money etc...

And yet all theses things have touched on the holocaust in one form or the other, why should a game be any diferent? As long as it's done well and respectful than I don't see the problem...

I would not mind playing cowboys and indians where I have to chase down and kill native americans in an open world game.

[QUOTE="Chris_Williams"]

thats a horrible idea

15strong

Whats horrible about having historical events in videogames?

Probably because that is a hugely emotional thing and most game companies probably dont want to risk alienating or enraging a group of people.

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

[QUOTE="DSmon"]

Games are a touchy subjects as it is. Adding something like that in a game may push some people over the edge.

DSmon

That's the point of art though, to push the boundaries (well some of them anyway, there are places where I don't think it should go)

I love controversey because that's were you can see peoples true colors and find out if they really stand by what they say they believe in.

Every movement in history was controversial. When Lincoln freed the slaves that was controversial, when somebody wrote a document and stated that all men are created equal that was controversial, when Spielberg was making Schindler's List that was controversial because people wanted to stop it from being made due to fears of it being insensitive.

I want the game industry to get the SAME recognition as books or Hollywood movies do, but as long as the game industry is afraid to go forward with more mature and emotional situations, then it never will.

Gaming as a whole is still in it's infant years. Their was a time when art and science were censored because of controversial subjects. Gaming just needs to be more accpeted as a form of art before we get in to those subjects.

I'm gusseing you like MGS based on your avatar?

The MGS series has touched on alot of controversial things actually, they never did the holocaust but the games all have alot of political undertones to them. And some of them are actually very relevant like MGS4.

Hell the ENTIRE game is about nucealer warfare and that is acutally more controversial than most people realise, especially in MGS4 the intro where he is in the middle east and Snake is talking about how "war andPMC interventionsin the name of counter terrorism" is saying alot actually. Same with the name "patriot" which in the story is sort of like the patriot act.

All those things are very mature and touchy. And I applaud Kojima for having the guts to do it.

Because the tragedies of the holocaust don't make for a fun game. Its really that simple.

[QUOTE="15strong"]

[QUOTE="Chris_Williams"]

thats a horrible idea

Chris_Williams

Whats horrible about having historical events in videogames?

Well I do. Imagine the impact of being a player during the holocaust or livng around the time of slavery. Quentin Tarantino's new movie will involve a main character as a slave. Why can't videogames? I find nothing wrong with historicle events, good or bad, in games if they are done right. Why should the industry limit itself just because a few people might be upset. I find it ignorant to imply that a person can learn about the holocaust or other significant histrorical events only in a book.

Because the tragedies of the holocaust don't make for a fun game. Its really that simple.

ActicEdge

The game isn't a "holocaust game" I'm saying that if you have a game set in WW2 it would make sense AND add a good emotional feeling to the story, thus making it overall a memorable game and one that gets you emotionally involved in the stroy so when you kill a nazi you "feel" a real sense of vengane when you do it.

Too many people are missing the point I'm trying to make.

[QUOTE="Chris_Williams"][QUOTE="15strong"]

Whats horrible about having historical events in videogames?

15strong

Well I do. Imagine the impact of being a player during the holocaust or livng around the time of slavery. Quentin Tarantino's new movie will involve a main character as a slave. Why can't videogames? I find nothing wrong with historicle events, good or bad, in games if they are done right. Why should the industry limit itself just because a few people might be upset. I find it ignorant to imply that a person can learn about the holocaust or other significant histrorical events only in a book.

Will it be fun? Will it be entertaining? Those are really the only 2 questions that should ever be asked when pitching game ideas. If you can't get yes to either of those then anything else is irrelevant. Is a game where we play as a slave and do . . . . pretty much whatever a slave does be fun? Maybe but it would in all honesty probably suck really bad.

[QUOTE="DSmon"]

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

That's the point of art though, to push the boundaries (well some of them anyway, there are places where I don't think it should go)

I love controversey because that's were you can see peoples true colors and find out if they really stand by what they say they believe in.

Every movement in history was controversial. When Lincoln freed the slaves that was controversial, when somebody wrote a document and stated that all men are created equal that was controversial, when Spielberg was making Schindler's List that was controversial because people wanted to stop it from being made due to fears of it being insensitive.

I want the game industry to get the SAME recognition as books or Hollywood movies do, but as long as the game industry is afraid to go forward with more mature and emotional situations, then it never will.

ShadowMoses900

Gaming as a whole is still in it's infant years. Their was a time when art and science were censored because of controversial subjects. Gaming just needs to be more accpeted as a form of art before we get in to those subjects.

I'm gusseing you like MGS based on your avatar?

The MGS series has touched on alot of controversial things actually, they never did the holocaust but the games all have alot of political undertones to them. And some of them are actually very relevant like MGS4.

I haven't played MGS4 yets so I stopped reading after the 2nd paragraph. Yes Metal Gear has done some touchy things with nucks and such, but the diffrence is those games are off the wall crazy. Walking tanks, super power charcters, and clones, you know that this is make believe from the start. A game where you are back in concentration camps and seeing it all again. In a game you live through the charcters and that is something that people don't want to live through again. I want games to be called art as well, but it is just too soon for these kind of things.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

Because the tragedies of the holocaust don't make for a fun game. Its really that simple.

ShadowMoses900

The game isn't a "holocaust game" I'm saying that if you have a game set in WW2 it would make sense AND add a good emotional feeling to the story, thus making it overall a memorable game and one that gets you emotionally involved in the stroy so when you kill a nazi you "feel" a real sense of vengane when you do it.

Too many people are missing the point I'm trying to make.

Sorry but when most people play video games, they are more focused on the gameplay and the challenge set before them. You don't need to emotionally attach any person to a character so that it feels "good" to kill another human being. I don't really care whether its in the sake of history or not, its not necessary and feeling vengence and deep emotional attachment in a game where you are acting out historical events is both a touchy (and unnecesary topic) and its just commercial suicide to try and push that kind of agenda in a video game meant first and foremost for fun.

[QUOTE="Chris_Williams"][QUOTE="15strong"]

Whats horrible about having historical events in videogames?

15strong

Well I do. Imagine the impact of being a player during the holocaust or livng around the time of slavery. Quentin Tarantino's new movie will involve a main character as a slave. Why can't videogames? I find nothing wrong with historicle events, good or bad, in games if they are done right. Why should the industry limit itself just because a few people might be upset. I find it ignorant to imply that a person can learn about the holocaust or other significant histrorical events only in a book.

[QUOTE="Chris_Williams"][QUOTE="15strong"]

Whats horrible about having historical events in videogames?

15strong

Well I do. Imagine the impact of being a player during the holocaust or livng around the time of slavery. Quentin Tarantino's new movie will involve a main character as a slave. Why can't videogames? I find nothing wrong with historicle events, good or bad, in games if they are done right. Why should the industry limit itself just because a few people might be upset. I find it ignorant to imply that a person can learn about the holocaust or other significant histrorical events only in a book.

This man/women (sorry never really know :P) get's what I'm saying, why can movies and books etc.. do it when a game cannot?

Censoring a game just becaue some people get offended by itis in violation of the 1st amendment. And would'nt you feel much more satisfying by killing a nazi after seeingthe tragidies of aconcentration camp in the game? It would get you involved in the storyline. As long as the issue is done respectfully and accurtely then what's the problem?

I gurantee you that the ifa game had a scene where the main charecter witnesses the horrors of the holocaust or a soldier who raids one and frees the people in the camp, that game would get GOTY and get a bunch of rewards for being one of the most important and emotional games ever to be made.

As long as gameplay and everything else was good along with the showing the Holocaust in a accurate and respectful way.

[QUOTE="15strong"]

[QUOTE="Chris_Williams"] its in bad taste, you wouldn't have a game that replicated 9/11 or a game that deals with slavery like one user has said. you if wanna know so much about the historical event go open a book, i don't want that stuff in my videogames. ActicEdge

Well I do. Imagine the impact of being a player during the holocaust or livng around the time of slavery. Quentin Tarantino's new movie will involve a main character as a slave. Why can't videogames? I find nothing wrong with historicle events, good or bad, in games if they are done right. Why should the industry limit itself just because a few people might be upset. I find it ignorant to imply that a person can learn about the holocaust or other significant histrorical events only in a book.

Will it be fun? Will it be entertaining? Those are really the only 2 questions that should ever be asked when pitching game ideas. If you can't get yes to either of those then anything else is irrelevant. Is a game where we play as a slave and do . . . . pretty much whatever a slave does be fun? Maybe but it would in all honesty probably suck really bad.

Who said you had to work in fiels in the game? Their many oppotunities to create a unique expirience with many of these historical events. It may not be fun as in mario or just casue. But it can offer a rewardind expirience with a deep story. And yes, it can be entertaining. I just don't understand why we should limit the industry.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

[QUOTE="15strong"]

Well I do. Imagine the impact of being a player during the holocaust or livng around the time of slavery. Quentin Tarantino's new movie will involve a main character as a slave. Why can't videogames? I find nothing wrong with historicle events, good or bad, in games if they are done right. Why should the industry limit itself just because a few people might be upset. I find it ignorant to imply that a person can learn about the holocaust or other significant histrorical events only in a book.

15strong

Will it be fun? Will it be entertaining? Those are really the only 2 questions that should ever be asked when pitching game ideas. If you can't get yes to either of those then anything else is irrelevant. Is a game where we play as a slave and do . . . . pretty much whatever a slave does be fun? Maybe but it would in all honesty probably suck really bad.

Who said you had to work in fiels in the game? Their many oppotunities to create a unique expirience with many of these historical events. It may not be fun as in mario or just casue. But it can offer a rewardind expirience with a deep story. And yes, it can be entertaining. I just don't understand why we should limit the industry.

What do you really want then is what I don't get? Let's use history to create an emotional experience inferior to anything offered in a book or movie because games strengths are they can be played beause we want to push gaming forward? I don't really see the point. If games want to make a point, be emotional, do it through soemthing simple, you can tell a story with gameplay. We have dedicated books and movies that let you experience war and its horrors. Why do we need to shove poorly done depictions in cutscenes of it in a game that takes away from the best aspect of games?

Anyway, I am always always for games moving the **** away from trying to be emotionally deep experiences and moving towards being genuinely great games that provide experiences other mediums can't dare compare to. I can learn more about the holocaust from reading but you will never be able to experience a worl like SMG in a book or movie. But hey, that's just me (and the industry doesn't care much for my view obviously)

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

Because the tragedies of the holocaust don't make for a fun game. Its really that simple.

ActicEdge

The game isn't a "holocaust game" I'm saying that if you have a game set in WW2 it would make sense AND add a good emotional feeling to the story, thus making it overall a memorable game and one that gets you emotionally involved in the stroy so when you kill a nazi you "feel" a real sense of vengane when you do it.

Too many people are missing the point I'm trying to make.

Sorry but when most people play video games, they are more focused on the gameplay and the challenge set before them. You don't need to emotionally attach any person to a character so that it feels "good" to kill another human being. I don't really care whether its in the sake of history or not, its not necessary and feeling vengence and deep emotional attachment in a game where you are acting out historical events is both a touchy (and unnecesary topic) and its just commercial suicide to try and push that kind of agenda in a video game meant first and foremost for fun.

Ever play Heavy Rain? That has a very emotional stroyline and it helps you get into the game more, and after you finish it you think back on it because it stays in your mind.

Remember when Bioshock got a bunch of rewards for being groundbreaking for it's storyline and gameplay? That game is controversial on alot of subjects including eugenics, free market and socialism, athiesm, plus plenty of others. It even lets you kill children in the game, that is VERY controversial. But it added this gamepaly experience where it felt more like "art" because it was trying to say something about humanity. And as a result you got more invovled with the story and it stuck with you after you finished it.

Look at GTA, probably the most controversial game series ever created, and yet that game showed that games can be made for adults with mature settings of crime where you play as the bad guy. Without this game being made there would be no mature games, ever.

Modern Warfare 2 had a controversial (but skippable) level where you shoot up an air port. It was put in for dramatic effects.

Sorry but controversy is what pushes the industry forward and having emotional situations it adds to the challenge because you get feel like you get personally involved with the storyline.

If movies do it, books do it, music does it, then why can't games?

It would be risky...

Look what happen when MOH allowed you to kill American troops as the Taliban, everyone flipped.

VensInferno

[QUOTE="Sky-"]

i cannazi the public responding positively to a game like this

ShadowMoses900

nice joke there buddy, Annefrankly it was unnecessary lol :P

I'm a Jew btw so I can do it.

Because even the game with the best method of storytelling is about as subtle as a bat to the face.

Using games to convey even a portion of the Holocaust would be about as tasteful as having Uwe Boll make a movie about it.

edit - actually, I remember an art game experiment with a train management game, where you tried to maintain your fleet's efficiency. Only, some way through the game it was actually revealed that some ofthe trains you were managing were actually ferrying Jews to concentration camps, so you were left with the choice of continuing to a high score or deciding to delay or cancel those trains.

Maybe a game like that, or a classic adventure style game would work. But most genres, not a chance.

[QUOTE="15strong"]

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

Will it be fun? Will it be entertaining? Those are really the only 2 questions that should ever be asked when pitching game ideas. If you can't get yes to either of those then anything else is irrelevant. Is a game where we play as a slave and do . . . . pretty much whatever a slave does be fun? Maybe but it would in all honesty probably suck really bad.

ActicEdge

Who said you had to work in fiels in the game? Their many oppotunities to create a unique expirience with many of these historical events. It may not be fun as in mario or just casue. But it can offer a rewardind expirience with a deep story. And yes, it can be entertaining. I just don't understand why we should limit the industry.

What do you really want then is what I don't get? Let's use history to create an emotional experience inferior to anything offered in a book or movie because games strengths are they can be played beause we want to push gaming forward? I don't really see the point. If games want to make a point, be emotional, do it through soemthing simple, you can tell a story with gameplay. We have dedicated books and movies that let you experience war and its horrors. Why do we need to shove poorly done depictions in cutscenes of it in a game that takes away from the best aspect of games?

Anyway, I am always always for games moving the **** away from trying to be emotionally deep experiences and moving towards being genuinely great games that provide experiences other mediums can't dare compare to. I can learn more about the holocaust from reading but you will never be able to experience a worl like SMG in a book or movie. But hey, that's just me (and the industry doesn't care much for my view obviously)

I hate the fact that you think because games are not up to par when it comes to stroytelling as movies or books that they should take a back seat. Games are continuing to evolve. I want gaems to offer deeper expiriences. Games can offer expiriences in storytelling that other mediums cannot.

What I want is something we haven't seen before. Games can offer more than just pure fun. That is what you want. I want the industry to evolve and offer many kinds of expiriences. The gaming industry is young, especially in the realms of storytelling. Some very interesting ideas can evolve from historical events. You automatically think a game will do holocaust/war wrong or bad. But what if they do it right? Wouldn't it be worth it? What if someone can cerate something we ahve never seen, something that rivals classic books,movie, and music.

The question is Why not? Why limit ourselves to just evolving gameplay. Why not evolve everything?

Because even the game with the best method of storytelling is about as subtle as a bat to the face.

Using games to convey even a portion of the Holocaust would be about as tasteful as having Uwe Boll make a movie about it.

edit - actually, I remember an art game experiment with a train management game, where you tried to maintain your fleet's efficiency. Only, some way through the game it was actually revealed that some ofthe trains you were managing were actually ferrying Jews to concentration camps, so you were left with the choice of continuing to a high score or deciding to delay or cancel those trains.

Maybe a game like that, or a classic adventure style game would work. But most genres, not a chance.

DJ_Lae

How about this scenario?

The games main charecter is a US soldier in WW2 and prior to the game you are at homw with your family and just relaxing but after you read about Pearl Harbor in the newspapers you enlist. You get sent off to Europe and during the game you storm a concentration camp and witness the suffereing going on in the area. It would be a very profound and groundbreaking moment for the Game inudustry.

Or here is another idea: you play a guy living in Europe during the Nazi occupation and your family and/or friends gets kidnapped by the nazis and sent the a concentration camp,in revenge you hunt down the nazis that murdered your family while trying to rescue them. I think it could work if it was implemented well.

The media already doesn't like games and harps on them for just killing random people. If the Holocaust was ever depicted in a game, all hell would break loose.

How about this scenario?

The games main charecter is a US soldier in WW2 and prior to the game you are at homw with your family and just relaxing but after you read about Pearl Harbor in the newspapers you enlist. You get sent off to Europe and during the game you storm a concentration camp and witness the suffereing going on in the area. It would be a very profound and groundbreaking moment for the Game inudustry.

Or here is another idea: you play a guy living in Europe during the Nazi occupation and your family and/or friends gets kidnapped by the nazis and sent the a concentration camp,in revenge you hunt down the nazis that murdered your family while trying to rescue them. I think it could work if it was implemented well.

ShadowMoses900