Richard Garriott on dumbed down modern RPG

I've often been defending my idea that many of the games we define "RPG" feature basically no role-playing at all and predictably that's a very unpopular stance among gamers, but in a very recent interview concerning his freshly kickstarted game Shroud of the Avatar, RPG legend Richard Garriott had something very similar to say.

In case you don't know who Richard Garriott is, he's basically the man who single-handedly created the RPG videogame genre in the early 1980s with his Ultima series, which inspired every single RPG that came after it. The man is basically the father of computer RPGs.

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Concerning modern RPGs he said:

"[With my new game] I'm trying to rectify a few of the ways I think role-play games have gone astray, I think they've become too hand-holding, with the menu-based conversations, quest logs and arrows on maps and I'm trying to bring 'role-playing' back into it as opposed to just mimaxing combat systems. You can play a lot of role-playing games without being a role-player these days."

"People don't even read the flavor text in quests anymore, and why should they? You can just follow the arrow and complete the quest. In conversations you can literally not pay attention to anything you click or at best glance at it so you don't pick an option that insults the guy so he'll attack you, but aside from that you click through all of it until it's done, it's all in your quest log and then you follow the arrow on your map and then mine the level 1 monsters and then level 2 and then level 3 and that level grinding is completely mind numbing to me. There are tons of great RPG these days, but I think many features that have been introduced are regressive, all this automatic stuff is just hand-holding."

Concerning RPG plots, he said:

"Most of fantasy RPGs ever written have this super simple plot: you're the hero because you're told so at the beginning, your job is to kill that big boss henchmen, which is waiting for you to come kill him. Along the way you minmax your way to the strength required to kill him and the game's over, and I'm thinking 'man, there's got to be a better game than that, there has to be a better story to tell than that'. "

On Shroud of the Avatar he added:

"With Shroud of the Avatar we're going back to typing conversations, no quest logs, we're still not sure how much the map is going to help you out and something similar will apply to combat. There will be no way to succeed without paying attention in this game, you'll even have to remember a few things, you may have to take a note or two. We're going to give you a journal of sorts, but if you go to this town and you think 'Oh, I know I have to go see this woman but I forgot what i'm supposed to talk to her about' it's not going to be in any quest log ready for you to look it up. You'll have to go back into your journal and trace the quest back to remember what you were supposed to ask that woman"

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I like the way he thinks and I like the direction this game is going. It sounds like it has steep learning curve but it defnitely sounds hardcore and refreshing for a genre that has frankly become derivative, formulaic and often simplistic.

I like this guy. But I've been burned before, I wana know exactly how he's gona address these issues:

Dialog Systems

Practical Strategic Freedom in Combat and Dialog encounters

Skill Checking

Progression Systems

and a few others I can't think of right now, got any more details TC ? More Sauces ? :)

A lot of your questions are answered in the wikipedia entry

You really should title this thread 'Richard Garriott on the competition'.

He talks a good game and the early Ultimas were awesome, but I remember Ultima 8...

@Black_Knight_00:

Actually. there's the Penny Arcade 'extra credits' youtube vids. They also believe some labeled RPGs actually aren't RPGs too.

I think that intensive customization, parties, back end management, and leveling systems were such staples of earlier ones, that people just looked at as borderlines to define when a game was becoming more RPG.

Y'know although the best rpgs were in medieval settings. I always thought that traditional dedication to the middle ages setting was like a cage for the fantasy and rpg genres.

The same way writers couldn't do fantasy if they couldn't imagine beyond Tolkien.

While Ultima 8 and 9 sucked (EA's fault, really, they scrapped both games halfway trough development and forced casualization and a killer deadline) Ultima 0 through 7, including Serpent Isle, the two Underworld spinoffs and the two "Tales" spinoffs were awesome.

That's 12 excellent games against 2 bad ones, I think the series comes out on top.

@ Black_Knight_00

Thanks but I need more ! :( they didn't go into detail about the skill's implementation, they barely mentioned progression and never said what elements will determine morality and how NPCs react to it or what it is exactly they are reacting to.

I don't think even Garriott knows that yet. The game has only been in development for a few months.

@ platinumking320

I've always maintained that those characteristics of Role Playing were thought up out of necessity duty to certain limitations/restraints that don't promote proper Role Playing, in other words: the technology sucked so they made the best of the resources made available to them.

@ Black_Knight_00

Allright...... But I'l be watching him and this peoject like a Hawk: "kukaw kukaw" Hawks cluck right ? :D !

But recent output should carry more weight. Over time some developers get better, some get worse.

a lot of the design choices he's making do seem exciting.

i'm really interested in seeing how the open dialogue system turns out in a game of this scale (there are websites and browser games that do a similar thing on a smaller scale). the ultimate goal of simply talking to an NPC and having them talk back is infinitely better than selecting from menus. i'm just also a little skeptical of how it will turn out. will it be able to interpret word triggers to continue quests all the time? even one mess up can lead to frustration as the player will think they've already tried the correct option and move on to a different one. also, having an open dialogue system is going to give the illusion of more choices than what are really available to the player to finish a quest and i'm curious how that will be handled.

also, minimal quest logs just sound awesome. there were definitely some things i didn't prefer about morrowind, but i really liked that quests weren't always just "go fetch this item from the dwarven ruin" with a glowing arrow pointing me in the right direction. i'd have to ask "well how do i get to the dwarven ruin from here?" when the arrow is there, i'm following the arrow on the HUD. when it's not, i'm navigating based on the context of the world.

Sure, but the problem with Ultima 8 and 9 was not Garriott, it was the fact that EA intruded into the development, and Shroud of the Avatar is self-published.

This is Garriott's chance to show he's still got what it takes to make a great RPG.

No "level system" then it is not a RPG. If you argue that it is not important then you argue that all games are RPG.

I wish I could sell my laziness as a good point like him. NO hand holding is just another way of saying I don't care about you playing the game.

I hate dialog and moral pick system and want them out of the game.

@ wiouds

what if the Level Up System is more Metroidvaniesque like in Arkham Asylum/City/Origins where instead of getting better stats, you get genuinely new and usefull abilities that change the way you play with out boosting stats ?

It need more detail and have more good complexity to it. I want lot of smaller things to adds up. The problem I have with the Metroidvaniesque limited system is like your problem with dialog affected stories, You feel that there only a A or B choices in them and I feel the same way in those games.

I hate the skill tree system as a whole. To gain thermal stealth something that is unrelated to it.

Sure you can become over power but like a game system the game mechanics creates both good and bad points and it is up the player to choose what good parts they like and what bad parts they can accept.

@ wiouds

And the problem with your statistically based approach takes alot of autonomy out the players hands. If I beat a boss in combat, I can't claim autonomy if I have an overpowerd character any more than it can claim autonomy if the boss beats me if my character is underpowered, it blurrs the lines of whos really determining the out come in each scenario if the character variables can be manipulated and effect proficiency of execution.

i wish he still owned the rights to Ultima.. i would give anything for a new Ultima Online

Call of Duty. Best RPG ever.

Dat leveling.

This isn't him on dumbed down modern rpg's. That was just a commercial on why you should buy his new game.

But honestly garriot gave games big strides back in his day and helped (I stress the word helped because he didn't do it alone) make some iconic games but he also hasn't done anything relevant in decades. He is nothing more than warren spector who made a few good games awhile back and now feels he is wiser than anyone "now a days" and his thoughts should be considered the word of god. Garriot is the proverbial old man saying "Back in my day....."

I'm actually more concerned in what he means by "Dumbed down" Role Playing. Is he gona just add abunch of complex arbitrary features and say "Hel Look, this is real Role Playing because simply opening a door requires a complex strategy dependent one 5milion varying factors, buy my game Please !"

Thats just complexiy for the sake of complexity.

Theres nothing I hate more than Illusive/Artificial Role Playing

I really look forward to seeing how Shroud turns out, the old Ultima games were something special so hopefully he is able to recreate some of that magic.

Have you seen Spoony's retrospective?

Is he talking about WRPGS? Many modern JRPGs adhere to the roots.

Oh yeah I loved it. I started watching him around the time of his FF8 stuff and have seen everything, some stuff I watched a couple times over the years (Phantasmagoria, Ripper, Swat) i'm a big fan, but you can tell hes burnt out and doesn't have it in him anymore these days.

@ turtlethetaffer

To be honest with you I'm not even sure what a JRPG is anymore, all I know is it does not evolve.

Write your own notes for the game or else you'll get lost, that sounds terrible.. Ill stick to Jrpgs, where there is no shame in their leveling systems and journals. They show you the rules and then send you off.

I do like that he wants to tell a better story than just, hero beats final boss. But if gameplay sucks I'm not interested.

Richard Gariott talking shit like he's got all the answers?

@ LeftClick007

What exactly constitutes good gameplay in an RPG or Japanese RPG ?

@ dvader654

lol The Dragons in His backyard are high maintainance, he needs outside funding, :D

@YukoAsho said:

Richard Gariott talking shit like he's got all the answers?

Came in here to say this.

The man and his games are influential no doubt (I fucking love Ultima Underworld) but his time has passed and, like @Gargus pointed out, is much like Warren Spector in that he isn't really relevant anymore.

Yeah, he's been struggling with severe depression and he's been on meds for that and other problems. Now he's moving in with his girlfriend, I hope that will help and he'll get some of the old energy back, I think he's post-producing the first episode of FFXIII-2 as we speak (which is going to be GLORIOUS).

He's been the first civilian going to space too :P

@YukoAsho said:

Richard Gariott talking shit like he's got all the answers?

Tabula Rasa was under nsoft and was heavily influenced by the fact that he had to cater to a asian market.

Also Ultima is probably one of the best rpg game series out there.

any new updates ?

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?p=31691

I agree. Why play a game if the game play suck. I want to role play through the game play. I am getting sick of the hand holding in current RPG like hiding states or making them too simple.

@ Jacanuk

"I'm gona tell all the other girls I have the best Daddy !"

cant devs do another genre besides medieval? its really outplayed (even though I like it). why not more sci fi game or steam punk games. hell, even a realistic rpg would interesting. obsidian kind of did it with alpha protocol.

edts: interested in the new cyberpunk game though, but I still want to see more of it.

@ TheShadowLord07

Does Heavy Rain count ? :D

More Richard Garriott. This time he talks about making the player uncomfortable by chipping away at established moral boundaries. Also, a few new juicy details on how Shroud of the Avatar will handle morality.

RPG is the most complicated genre to explain to someone, and even those who think they know what it is, usually, don't.

The confusion is understandable, though. You have to consider the birth of the term (basically, an evolution of turn-based tabletop wargaming), how it differs from it (individual units are fleshed out, rather than treated as mere numbers on the field), and then you have to add the complexities of programming (even with today technology, you simply can't have a computer or console calculate every possible decision by a player).

In short, though, a RPG should be a game where the player has complete control over who the main character(s) is(are) - which is equivalent to "character creation" - and combine that with freedom of progression (multiple paths, not just in dialogue, some sort of character development system, etc) - which would be the equivalent to every player having a unique, personal, experience while playing the same adventure or map (just like in tabletop RPGs).

Think "my character did this to beat the mission" while someone else says "oh, I took a completely different approach, but then, my character was an archer..." and so on. That's the kind of conversation two traditional roleplayers might have.

In the world of computers and consoles, however, the term has been slowly diverted to "anything with a level-up system", which is kind of why purists get sad/mad at it.

Japanese-style RPGs, pretty much, tend to eschew character creation and are more interested in giving the player pre-generated characters which can be "upgraded" throughout a linear story line. Personally, I see them more like "Adventure/Strategy" (if turn-based) or "Action/Adventure" (if real-time) hybrids, rather than RPGs, but I don't expect the industry to rename their games for me.

Western-style RPGs, otoh, seem to be the closest to the traditional formula, but they're still very distant from the pure experience of role-playing a scenario. MMOs were an interesting step in that direction, but the "massive" portion of the genre kind of defeats the purpose of being the main hero (or party) in a world where everyone else is a hero too.

Addressing Richard Garriott's future game, I honestly don't think it will be a success. It should attract a following of fans, but the large majority of gamers will probably just feel annoyed by some of the design choices. Of course, I'm saying this knowing too well the game is in early development and a lot may change before release, so take my words as simply "a feeling".

@ EvanescentCrow

I definately don't know what an RPG, but I know enough to get by on the forums.

However I do take issue with a few things that are not necessarily RPG Defining Characteristics but definately are frequente in RPGs, namely the emphasis on Statisics/Attributes and Character Developement.

Exactly. The "definition of RPG" debate can be equated to the "definition of Football" debate. On one hand you've got people arguing that a sport where you toss a ball around with your hands has no business being called football. On the other you have people who can't be bothered to waste time reasoning on words and definitions.

In videogames we have some who say that a game where you level up but do no role-playing at all has no business being called a "role-playing game" and on the other side we have people who don't give a rat's ass.

Oh well, it's a young medium, in time we purists will be vindicated lol

Final part of the interview for those interested. Garriott show a ton of material related to what developing games was back in 1978. Really gives you perspective on where videogames came from.

This video series was pure gold.

Absolute excellent video but as always with Richard Garriott :)

He is really such a awesome guy and i was lucky enough to meet him a few times, once when he had a tour of his house in the ultima online days, and Origin had a party for its volunteer staff :) and then this year at Syndcon.

""Most of fantasy RPGs ever written have this super simple plot: you're the hero because you're told so at the beginning, your job is to kill that big boss henchmen, which is waiting for you to come kill him. Along the way you minmax your way to the strength required to kill him and the game's over, and I'm thinking 'man, there's got to be a better game than that, there has to be a better story to tell than that'. "

While I do support the idea of coming up with unconventional plots for RPGs, I think this is a gross simplification.

Back when the word "Origin" didn't conjure up horrible thoughts of EA nastiness