Implicit Game Design

Now maybe I have things twisted but it seems like Implicit Game design is Just a fancy way of saying Trial and Error. I mean think about it. You'r given information about the controls... and thats it. The rest of the game is you sticking your hand in pitch black dark whole and seeing what bites and what doesn't. I think I encountered a game like this along time ago. it was platforming game and long story short I kept getting reset to the beginning of the game, I wasn't sure if I failed, If I died, if the game was so short I completed it, what was causing it ? and so on. however thats an extreme case, if you're lucky then the game will just kill you off everytime you did something wrong, if you don't die then its safe to assume you're on the right track. All though I know some games are built without a fail state, meaning if you don't know what to do next then you're already failing at the game.

I think the thing that bothers me most of all is whats the point to any of this ? Figuring out the game's rules by sink or swim methods doesn't give you an edge in the gameplay, I can easily look up how the game is played and be just as proficient at it as someone who learned it through trial and error. Unless its the aspect of learning you find more interesting than the game itself. At which point theres no need to keep playing it.

We get it, you dislike Dark Souls.

The thing about Dark Souls is that the enemy placement and level layout never changes. You're given a layout, and the layout is essentially a puzzle. It's a puzzle you solve through skill at the gameplay. This is usually the case with many trial-and-error games. It teaches you the mechanics, and gives you obstacles that require the usage of those mechanics. If it's challenging, that means it's doing something right. But where it can go wrong is if there's something oddly placed or a pixel is off. Implicit game design relies heavily on the player being able to take the rules and use them to tackle each obstacle that's designed around the mechanics. These are called "practice" games, where you're supposed to practice the mechanics in order to take out each new, more challenging obstacle. The better you get with the mechanics, the more confident you are in being able to tackle even the biggest of challenges. Hell, I remember running through some tough enemies in Dark Souls (like the black knights) with very poor armor and weapons, and I managed to beat them solely through remembering to dodge at the right moments and attack when appropriate. The reward lies in the player realizing that they need to carefully study the patterns and layout and tackle them according to their skills learned through play. Even older games, like Castlevania for the NES, had this philosophy. You couldn't just rush in and beat the game. You had to carefully study the enemy patterns and level layout and then work around them in order to succeed without dying. Dark Souls, along with many other games like Super Meat Boy and even most early Mario games had this philosophy as well. it's through practice that you get better at these kinds of games, much like with practice you get better at a musical instrument. Sure, it can be frustrating, but that's only because you have yet to acknowledge that you're doing something wrong, and therefore must fix that problem yourself instead of having the game explicitly tell you "this is how you need to solve this area." The old saying practice makes perfect comes into play here.

I am confused if you are you saying you like "implicit game design" or not?

I myself like it when you are told the controls, but you as the player have to know when to use them based on your observations of the game itself.

@EPICCOMMANDER: I second that sentiment. I love feeling like I'm figuring things out on my own using just the mechanics of a game.

@mastermetal777

If Darks Souls is a Puzzle game as you say then its not really a practice game... The only thing you can practice is blocking and dodging and attacking the game's combat mechanics are nothing new or inovative and are taxing or exhaustive in anyway not while the stamina bar keeps hamstringing you from reaching your full potential , the rest of the game is not practice-able, not if you remember it like you would a puzzle game.

In order for something to be practiced it requires repetition, and in Dark Souls if something gets you killed its a clear sign that you shouldn't be repeating it.... You tackle the obstacle differently everytime until you find a method that works, but its got no Degrees of Success, its just like Portal.

@Lulu_Lulu: you success lies in the reward of actually beating the bigger beasts that don't respawn, and acquiring new equipment. Also, the world starts changing the more you do things. New areas open up, as well as shortcuts to previous ones. The reward is shown not just in the satisfaction of taking down a challenging room or enemy, but through the world changing as well.

And what is an obstacle course but a moving puzzle? Even a moving puzzle can be beaten, but there's no one surefire way of taking it on either.

@EPICCOMMANDER

You're told the controls but not the rules. Imagine you didn't know the rules of say Capture the Flag or King of The Hill.... Or even chess on your computer (its a countermeasure for illegal moves). Its not even remotely interesting unless you understand the objective is to go get the opposing teams flag and bring it back, you'd be randomnly killing eachother until you discover the opposing team has a flag at their base too, and thats not even the half of it. Now imagine the same thing with Computer Chess.

@Lulu_Lulu: Video games teach through the fact that there are things trying to kill you. What do you do? Fight back with what you've been learning. At least in most games.

@mastermetal777

True but if you even if try a different method of beating an encounter thats still not practice. As you not attempting improve anything, you're just trying to find another solution. I also can't help but notice how much of a role equipment plays in these encounters. You know nothing ticks me off more than item based solutions to a supposedly skill based game... Its a major conflict of philosophies.

@mastermetal777

Yeah, but what the point in hiding the rules ?

We don't learn through trial and error because its actually good or interesting, we do it that way because sometimes theres just no other way. I'm just curious why this dude wants to Glorify this process ? What are the benefits ?

@Lulu_Lulu: You get the benefit of being able to know that you were able to defeat a challenge by yourself, no help required. You learn the rules as you go. They make it interesting in Dark Souls because the enemies are interesting to fight, as is the world and the allure of the challenge itself.

Back to my musical instrument analogy. Say you wanna learn a song without any help. You'd then go to websites or find books on learning that instrument, and you just practice. Dark Souls has something similar with its online co-op feature, as well as the little notes people leave around that give you clues as to what you're supposed to do.

@mastermetal777

Theres nothing difficulty about nothing about not knowing something..... Is it frustrating yes it is very frustrating but wheres the actual challenge, if you don't know what happens when you venture forth without a shield then go ahead and try, get insta killed (because you have no shield) then come back with a shield, its not challenging ... Hell its not even complicated, as painful as it is to bang your head against a brick wall its not actually challenging. Things become challenging when you know exactly what to do but need to execute it through skill (actuall skill, not memory) to get it done.

I know the rules to Football, Shooters, Fighting Games and much much more, but that doesn't make FIFA Vanquish or Dead or Alive any easier. Thats a real challenge because its not based on hiding facts from the player, If I got the rules of FiFA then things get easier, not easier to win but easier since I'm no possess the knowledge that means I'm no longer able to use it, the fewer things you know the fewer things you have to concern your mind and body with actually doing. Imagine sombody deleted the knowledge of one of the rules from your mind.... Does that really make the game challenging if you don't understand how something works ? Is being stupid difficult ?

And thats why I consider this type of design very masochistic. Theres nothing unpleasant about a challenge but there is plenty to be upset about when you're frustrated.

@Lulu_Lulu: You don't need a shield to plow through Dark Souls if you know what you're doing with the dodges. The beauty of the game is it allows for any play style, and having it feel challenging regardless. You have to create that tension yourself, or you can ease it by finding a shield and equipping it, which is common sense for a lot of people. You make it sound as if the game doesn't convey that well enough when it does.

@mastermetal777

I never said you need a shield for the entire game.... Sometimes you might need it it to block the bosses only attack that can't be dodged. The game is not so beautifull when you realise the playstyles are not balanced properly so much so that healing items are a necessary trade off for not having a shield. One way or another the game will bend you to its will. Its caught inbetween the freedom or Role Playing and the Barriers of Difficulty.

I hate games that are base around trail and error style games. It can just become a memory test or just a "roll and move"

Worse is when they use the statement about how to was obvious some thing is.

@Lulu_Lulu: not to me. I view the experience much differently than you.

@mastermetal777

Ofcourse you do master... Ofcourse you do.... Implicit Design still sucks though.... Just give me the rules so I can play without frustration.

@Lulu_Lulu: Or figure it out yourself and feel more accomplished in the process. There's reward in using your brain to figure a video game out. That's what separates the medium from static games like chess.

@wiouds

The most popular example is the Booby Trap in the narrow hall way. Theres a pressure plate there, step on it and receive an arrow in the back...... Its an avoidable trap only the technical sense. You can avoid it only if you look for it.... But the only way to do this is by Pixel Hunting or being super cautious of everything, both new and familiar, all the time, everywhere !

Not every narrow hallway is going to have this trap, chances are only 5 percent of them will have it yet you are expected to exhaust your concentration on the other 95% just as a precaution. This is not clever for both the creators of the trap and those who avoid it. Its conditioning with no payoff.

@mastermetal777

And then get beaten by somebody who was smart enough to look up the rules.

But screw him.... You're a big boy because you mastered trial and error.

L2p noobs

There need to be balance from your on you own and let me play them game through you.

In paintball you should not feel accomplished that you learn how to get your gun to fire without reading or watching a video about it.

Good games make sure all player get to a stander level knowledge about the game that they can then grow from.

@wiouds

Lol. These types of threads do a real number on my spelling and grammar too. :D

Sometimes implicit games design is conducive to the immersion. Like in the case of Dark Souls. Don't get me wrong I hate Dark souls for some of it's aspects. Both Dark souls and Dark souls 2 have laughably bad level designs and are filled with invisible barriers. But things like not knowing what the heck you're supposed to do or not knowing what a certain place is, is actually part of the game and in that sense Dark souls is special because it's a lot less frustrating to actually figure things out on your own in Dark souls due to the hints in the environment and the occasional very absurd hints from NPCs. But compare it to a game like starseed pilgrim where the actual premise is figuring things on you're own (Because it's a puzzle game) which was a lot more frustrating than Dark souls and in no way helped my immersion and my attention to the details in the game.

@Lulu_Lulu: I think this is what Ubisoft is trying to do with unity. Like how Ubisoft said:In the game ACU you will be told to kill someone and that's it, how you do it is up to you.

they want you to explore the area and see how you can do it yourself, so you can feel like an real assassin and plan your attack.

@ZeDsbetterthenU

Gotta love that Feedom.... Unfortunately I don't like Assassin's Creed.

This thread reminds me of Riven.

That game gave you virtually no information on where to go or what to do. You're given a basic overarching goal during the intro, but that falls apart within the first minute of the game.

Still, you work it out. You observe. You fiddle with mechanisms. You teach yourself other languages, symbols and codes. You solve some of gaming's trickiest puzzles, often without a word of dialogue or without any indication that what you're doing is solving a puzzle.

And it's brilliant. The way you explore the world and teach yourself things - it sets a level of immersion that is rarely matched by any other game.

So...I mean, a lack of instructions isn't necessarily a bad thing. It all comes down to how the developers pull it off. I'm not convinced that Dark Souls developers did it very well, but I guess I enjoyed teaching myself how to survive in that game as well?

There's a place for everything. Dark Souls has a relatively small world with distinct areas, so it's easy to remember where to go and where not. Now imagine if Red Dead Redemption never had a minimap or marker... That would kinda greatly suck. I get the feeling to maker of the video just wants to claim he has superior patience and intelligence than the average gamer, which is why he and a select few can put up with games like those and reject getting "spoon-fed".

@Planeforger

Not everybody gets a thrill from discovery and I guess thats the entire appeal of this type of design, its not to promote any game dynamic or provide a fair challenge, its to promote the "oooooh now I get it" type of feeling.

It appeals to me to just not from this type of design.

I have a love and hate relatinship with Darksouls. My older brother who is a huge ds fan convinced me to play it earlier this year and im half way trough now i think but so much effort to take out these bosses but on the other hand what a great feeling to finally defeat them. I will finish it one day but ill probably never play it again, it's a good game and i understand why it's so popular but it's just not my type of game, im not patience enough to play it i guess.

I seen a large number of people getting piss off because a core concept of the game was hidden or never made clear.

There is a different between thinking up with smart and non-cheese thing to do in the game and learning a basic that was hidden or not explained.

@wiouds

Me personally, J

I don't like anything hidden.

@ojmstr

Some people do feel genuinely satisfied when they finally overcome a steep obstacle.

I only feel relief: "Finally its over".... I feel that way because the Bosses are tough but are not particularly clever at all, theres almost no interplay in these fights, its just Hit-Dodge-block and repeat. Alot of JRPGs Boss Battles are marathon fights, I remember my 1st time fight the Drake in Dragons Dogma, it took me 2 hours to wear it down to its last health bar and by then I know longer had any more resources to continue the the fight. I had to run away. Its not enough to just give a boss lots of health and high damage dealing capabilities, you need to make beating it smart too. Only then can Lulu get satisfaction. Its why I like the Bosses from President Evil and DarkSiders. You just can't put a price on a Boss like Straga or SuperFly-Simmons.

@Lulu_Lulu: Im one of those who feels satisfied beating a boss in dark souls but i don't know if it's worth it for me, all that hassle and it's time consuming as hell. I thought you liked games like dark souls Lulu?

@ojmstr

Time is a big factor to consider when facing a difficult challenge. Its not so much the Duration as it is what it consists of.... And what Dark Souls consists of looks more tedious than actually challenging (regardless of how long or short).

My theory Theres two basic types of difficulty. The kind Stifling kind and the Variety kind.

Stifling is just that, the difficult comes from the game taking away your options. Things like Abilities Resources and Equipment. I never found mastering aconfined playstyle interesting.

The Varient kind is the exact opposite, this difficulty comes from Mastering and Juggling even more things at a time. I love these... I like having options and Flexibility.

If i ever have trouble with sleeping i know where to go now, holy mother of all thats dull that guy´s voice was a sleep-fest.

Anyways you are right Lulu, what he is saying is basically besides being a tribute to dark souls that he wants Trial and error games with absolute no instruction. Which i can't completely disagree with despite the fact that he oversells Dark Souls by a few miles. I love those games that challenges you as a player but a game can challenge you fine with instructions, its all in the gamedesign and not having instructions is in my view sometimes a more easy way then a game with instructions, because its so easy to just throw someone into a situation where no info can make it seem hard, where if you give instructions and its still challenging its because its really a challenge.

And the point lulu is to challenge yourself, its a lot more satisfying to complete something that have you working for it then having it served on a plate for you.

@jimmy_russell: just cuz you don't understand doesn't make it less valid

@Jacanuk

Sounds like someone with a severe case of narcisism disorder.

I'm also playing a Trial and Error game right now.... Except, theres no objectiive, and I'm not playing it I'm actually making it. Remember how I mentioned Disney Infinity has a game creation mode ?

Its the only place where trial and error makes sense. There you can truly be satisfied since you can discover something new not something thats merely just hidden. Its not implicit Game Design.... Its just Game Design. Making games.

@mastermetal777

He understands the concept.... He just doesn't understand why anybody would subject themselves to something like this.

There is a different between a challenge from fighting skeleton that force you to mix up how you fight and a challenge from fighting skeleton that can only be harmed by blunt weapons. It is worse when the game never hinted that they would be like that.

@wiouds

I call those "lock & key" types of challenges.... If you have the "key" you win... If not you lose.

I hate it when a challenge is won or lost based on whether you have the item, weapon, ability, special ammo/element etc.

When you die or fail because of something so stupid its called a "Strategic Failure".... You died because you didn't have a ranged weapon or lightning based magic.

this type of game design might be great for a roguelike game, but in a game that doesnt change in time, or doesnt even have variety in level design, it fails hard

i didnt felt accompalished when i killed a boss in dark souls, i havent beat the game but i killed 3 bosses or 2 im not sure if first one counts, does it change afterwards?

but i felt good when i made a crazy combo without getting touched in arkham city, it did get kind of boring after mastering it, however it was more fun for me