Gamergate discussion thread (one and only, KEEP IT HERE)

Show me this group of people saying a female lead in Gears of War would be emasculating? I am pretty sure that is just a silly strawman.

No one is objecting to female leads. No one is objecting to games becoming more diverse. Heck the most popular gaming service has a library that numbers in the thousands, and they do everything they can make it as easy as possible for developers of incredibly niche games to find a market and sell their work. No one who played the new Saints Row cares that the two protagonists of the game are an Asian guy and a Ginger gal. No one cares that the best ending centers around reuniting an interracial couple. No one out there is creating petitions to replace the two playable characters with a while male bald space marine. There isn't a group out there that gets all ticked off when a game is announced that has selectable gender, or a female lead.

What is being objected to is the idea that gamers/gamer creators/the industry in general is racist/misogynistic/homophobic and other such nonsense because AAA action games cater to little boys. If you take away the accusation of hatred from this discussion, you won't find many people bent out of shape about the topic. Shoehorn the accusation of hatred into the discussion, particularly from groups of people who are simultaneously upset that there are not enough women in violent action games, and that women are sometimes the targets of violence when featured in violent action games, and yeah there is a backlash.

The video game industry is a global market dominated by Asian brands that includes everything from dinky all ages color matching games to giant bloated action games with budgets that put summer blockbusters to shame. The people who play them come from around the globe, and have wildly divergent tastes. Ignoring all that to go on a rant about how gamers and game creators hate women and minorities because Haloed Gears of Battleduty 6 spends more of it's budget detailing the explosion then filling it's cast with diverse and interesting characters is however going to tick off a lot of people who spent the last couple weeks playing Valkyria Chronicles.

Isn't this also a matter of patience, though? If women as consumers, journalists and developers in gaming are growing, some people seem to expect or demand videogames to change in tandem with that development. I don't think that's a reasonable expectation or demand. Change will happen with a significant delay (especially considering the amount of men and also women who are indifferent about all this). Also, unlike film, there's the whole gameplay aspect that can't really be related to sexism, but that's important to a lot of people (for many it's the main reason they play), again rendering this whole gender debate kind of irrelevant for them. I mean, I don't think there's a visible stagnation or regression when it comes to character diversity in videogames; it's simply going slowly. Also, there will probably never be the diversity of characters as seen in movies or books, since many narratives don't lend themselves for a gameplay or even an interactive setting.

I'm curious about two things: is this tendency to get ticked off proportionate and is this mainly a US issue? I'm not aware of these one-sided and generalising rants aimed at gamers in my country (The Netherlands). I do not feel videogames are regularly being targeted or that gamers are being negatively stereotyped. Are these isolated events or are videogames and gamers systematically being targeted in the US media? Because in that case I could understand people getting frustrated. If it simply happens occasionally (or mostly on Youtube) then I see no reason to get upset by a group of ignorant troublemakers...

Most of those questions are pretty subjective, but I will take a shot at them.

Proportionate? If you mean to the situation, not really. We are after all talking about video games. If you mean when compared to the people they argue against? Well, Feminist Frequency and the like classify video games as a force of oppression in our society. It is kind of hard to top that level of blown out of proportion.

Is this mainly a US issue? Oh yeah. By the standards of the US, graphic torture scenes are less offensive then the casual display of bare breasts. The United States isn't good at handling anything even remotely related to sex.

Is it wide spread? On the internet, very. Off the internet if you try to have a conversation about how video games are a force of oppression in the lives of middle class white women people will look at you like you lost your mind. This really is an internet only debate.

As for why people care? For most people it is a casual debate. There are however people on both sides who treat the sexism in video games discussion as a lifestyle and or career. Neither group of such people should be classified as sane.

Remember Me was also a pretty mediocre game, unfortunately. It was nowhere near as interesting as the "open world" trailer made it out to be, the memory re-write mechanic (the most interesting thing about the game) was badly underutilized, the combat system was nonsensical and the entire game was just a linear series of hallways. While publishers might have been idiots about not publishing a game with a female protagonist if they thought that was why the game wouldn't sell, but the game itself was not that great. It averaged out around a 7.5 on Metacritic.

Regardless of what that publisher thought, the reason that game wasn't because the protagonist was female. It was a mediocre game and it wasn't nearly as heavily advertised as something like Tomb Raider.

-Byshop

@kittennose: Thanks for the elaboration.

Tomb Raider was still not profitable after selling 4 million though. I am not objecting to women in the medium, i am open for it. But i don't want to fill a quota just because people want to see women. I want to see good characters. I don't care which gender they are.

I don't mind having females or males in games, i want good characters. We can't require every game to have a female lead.

It's a decent game, but it does not stand out enough to make people care. There are plenty of games with males in them that fall on their face

I'm not sure what your point is.

-Byshop

Regardless of how you try to downplay it, that "minor flaw" is the difference between this being an example of the "ethical breaches" you keep saying you want to talk about or it being someone else's personal business and not at all relevant this or any games ethics related discussion.

-Byshop

Tomb Raider was not profitable because of Square-Enix's ridiculous expectations and bloated budget surrounding that game. And I'm with you. I don't want to see every new game come out have a female lead, because that only inverts the issue. Yet at the same time, I don't want idiot publishers thinking a female lead is going to affect their sales.

Yeah, the latest Tomb Raider sold 6.5 million copies which is hardly anything to sneeze at. The more relevant factor here isn't necessarily how successful the game was commercially since there are many, many ways a publisher can screw up a game's release that have little to do how much people might want that game.

-Byshop

@JustPlainLucas: bad games don't sell, i don't care about who you play as long as it's a good game

Good games don't necessarily sell either.

Yep, poorly marketed games (which was the case with Remember Me) don't sell.

One could even argue bad games sometimes actually sell, depending on one's definition of 'bad'. Resident Evil 6, while similarly to Tomb Raider not meeting sales expectations, still sold 5.2 million copies worldwide (according to wikipedia). Many would consider that a bad game. Of course, Resident Evil is an established franchise.

true, but when we have seen reviewers promote certain games it is a problem. That's why you review games as a product and as an artform. When you see something that's bad you call it out

The point is that it doesn't exclusively happen to games with a female protagonist

There should be a comedy 'Review a Game Like Polygon' thread.

It has a woman with boobs and is a PS exclusive. 60%

This woman is empowered look at her boobs! Xbox exclusive! 90%! Must buy! Ka$hing.

In more amusing news Christina Sommers a Democrat Feminist has spent the past 2 days cheering on gamers...

To update you guys on the ABC video, it's the 83rd most hate video on youtube atm, it's not just a bunch of bots voting...

That depends on whether you mean bot in the literal sense.

I'm not sure what you mean by "promote" because promotion can be anything from writing an article or review to making an ad campaign for the game. For certain games, I think there needs to be promotion for them, especially from the press, because that's the primary source of information and possibly the only source of information that is reaching the general public about the particular game. Of course, there are tactful ways of promoting, e.g. an interview with the developer with a paragraph at the end dedicated to informing the public when the game releases, and there are less tactful ways of promoting, e.g. "Believe the hype." -IGN.

Also reviewing a game as a product isn't necessarily similar to reviewing something as art; then you start to jump into a debate of what's more important: the technical aspects of what you bought as a product or the artistic vision and how well that's conveyed in the game. Once you delve into the reviewing products based on how well they convey their artistic vision this is where you create variability in the reviewer spectrum which the internet hates because it's not 'objective'.

But then what is the argument for not having games with female protagonists? That there wouldn't be enough games with male protagonists in them? I don't think anyone is saying stop making games with men as the lead; there's room for both, especially in a day when the amount of games released in a year increases exponentially.

The point is, a game selling poorly because of a female lead is bullshit, and companies need to stop using that as an excuse not to make them.

The Argument for not having female protagonists is that they simply do not sell and the market is not for those kinds of games.

And since companies are in it for the profit the less profit they get means less cash for stockholders and new games so of course they will go for where the biggest profit is.

How much does a game with a female protagonist have to sell until they're considered to "simply do sell"? Are we considering other factors into sales like production costs that keep a game from being profitable, how niche the genre is, or whether the game was profitable even if it didn't sell 9M?

Ask Square Enix (or wait............) But to the point ask developers and publishers, they are the only ones who knows what is enough.

But why do you think we are seeing so many remakes of Assasins creed or Call of Doggiesplentlyalot. The Fact is that most games do not sell and it doesn't matter if its with a female or male protagonist so when a developer have to look at a new game they have to go with either a sure thing or a gamble and if that gamble also has a female protagonist it kinda says itself.

Anyways a better question would be why do females not buy the games with female protagonists?

Something which has been studied to death I believe. Men an women 'tend' to like different games.

Stop it, it's a bad video... You can't even proof that it is bots... Take a look at the comments, people dislike the video

Nobody is arguing not to have female in games or even in the industry. If that were true, why did GG fund a project with females developers in gaming?

People want to experience new things and gamers as a whole want change, but not at the cost at some quota

But nobody is setting a quota, they're just saying there needs to be more. The point was never to hit a quota for games containing female protagonists; it was to make the landscape a little less skewed and improve the quality of female characterization, hitting a quota would not improve the quality.

You missed my point. The people who disliked it are bots, not literal bots but mindless drones. Tell me did you find the video on your own or did you get sent a link to it under a title like "look how stupid ABC are" or "ABC attack gamers"? The only reason you watched the video was because you knew you were going to dislike it.

Yes the video is bad, so what?

And that argument is rubbish. Its that simple. Firstly, there are few games with female leads. Secondly most games have a tendency of failing. So if you are to plop games with female leads into the general failure rate of most games it would be within expectations. But making a statement that it simply do not sell is pretending that a successful IP like Tombraider does not exist. Bayonetta was successful enough to have a sequel. Remember Me developer is making another game with a female lead. So obviously games with female leads sell. Using the logic of failed female games as the reason not to have games staring female leads can be applied to anything. Games shouldn't be made because most games failed. MMOs shouldn't be made because most fail and I can go on on. Currently the biggest profits is regurgitating known IPs and not creating new games.

@invisiblejimbsh said:

Something which has been studied to death I believe. Men an women 'tend' to like different games.

They tend to like "different" things because they are exposed to a cultural bias of what to like and what not to like based on their gender. Thats the core reason for the differences and is why its important to have diversity in gaming so that these learnt differences can be broken down through familiarity.

@The_Last_Ride

Nobody is arguing not to have female in games or even in the industry. If that were true, why did GG fund a project with females developers in gaming?

People want to experience new things and gamers as a whole want change, but not at the cost at some quota

You keeping mentioning this donation that GG as an entity donated yet you have not provided proof of this claim. You seem to have a tendency of strong factual claims that cannot be verified. Secondly, you do have a problem with having female leads because no one mention anything about a quota and you are using the self created quota to justify your resistance to including/having more female leads. I don't know why you and others pretend that it you have no problem with having female leads and then moment anyone requests it there is an outcry of injustice.

Anyone who states that they don't care what gender they are playing and then immediately follows up by stating that it shouldn't matter what gender you play and it should stay as is, has a problem with playing a different gender. And that is fine, just don't lie to yourself or pretend to be unbias.

No, i knew about it and i don't dislike a clip based on what others tell me

I've always agreed with Anita Sarkessian that the portrayal of women in many games is poor. Things are changing, though.

The people threatening her and Brianna Wu are hypocrites. They claim to be fighting for unbiased journalism, but make online / real world attacks on these women for having an opinion.

I think GG is generally perceived as vague at this point. Serious GG supporters can easily dismiss threats or insults as not really being related to GG. The problem is GG is not properly organized, so it's also very easy for opponents to see threats and insults as GG related.

This is a very bold claim to make. I do have a tendency to agree that there are certain constructions affecting our perceptions that are more culture than gender based. But these constructions are extremely hard to prove and explain. I've frequently pointed out something similar, but unless you provide some study that proves these constructions exist and affect us, this is not going to be taken seriously (at least, in my experience). The problem is that men and women are significantly different in many ways, but I don't think there's a convincing way to determine what are the actual gender differences and what are the culturally constructed gender differences (also because they sometimes relate to each other).

There seems to be a very strong conviction that if they aren't fought feminists and sjw's will force developers to change their games to adhere to some minority's standard. There's a tendency to broaden that conviction into claims that are supposedly focused on preserving artistic freedom and ethics in journalism. Artistic freedom is of course relative, because we see far less backlash against publishers for limiting the artistic freedom of developers, nor do we see a backlash against audiences, which also limit the artistic freedom of developers (dare I say that publishers and audiences have a far more significant impact on artistic freedom of developers than feminists and sjw's). Combine this with the negative stereotyping of gamers and videogames and it isn't hard to make people go berserk.

I think the mistake many people make is that they take all these accusations personally and can't leave their emotions, frustrations and disdain out of their subsequent replies. Noone seems capable of showing some composure or reservation. In all my naivity I will say these people aren't necessarily against change, they just fear some mightily disproportionate and forced change (which I honestly think is a bit irrational).

Also, GG's approach seems very one-dimensional and typical of an unorganized mass, putting them in a negative light. There's a lot of collective disagreement, but no attempt to solve the 'bigger issue'. I'd like to see this group actually organise and maybe reach out to more prominent people to join their cause (by organizing they could also more easily distance themselves from trolls and people who can't express themselves properly). I'd like to see a code of ethics for gaming journalism being made. I'd like to see attempts at creating new gaming outlets that have a clear code of conduct and that adhere to this 'objectivity' desire so many people seem to have. People seem united in their disdain, but in the end they appear to be no more than a collection of annoyed individuals.

I've personally never felt stereotyped or looked down upon for loving videogames, nor do I see any indication that feminists and sjw's (will) have any significant influence on the content of videogames (in the negative sense, that is). So why is it that some feminist nobody can apparently affect how people look at gamers and videogames in general, but a stereotyped female or male character in a videogame cannot affect people's perceptions in any way? Because this is why I'm not worried or frustrated. Those feminists should have as little effect on how people view games and gamers as a stereotyped female or male character should affect people's perception of men or women.

Its not that bold. It well within scope and can be observed in modern societies and the changes in gender roles when comparing to the past. This powerpoint explores this very issue. There are books on this issue but the one that I found that looked rather interesting is 528 pages. :| Even something as trivial as a secretary was once a man's job and now its has a strong feminine association. Many examples of changes roles can be found throughout history. Yes, there are physiological difference between the sexes but when it comes to their perception and their roles, culture has played a strong role in molding a person's perception. Parents are the key in perpetuating these roles and it can be easily observed in any culture. Boys and girls at a very very young age are guided to the societal norm for the appropriate gender. Of course there are always people who break away from these strongly suggested guidelines.

Fair enough. I must admit I only did a casual search on the internet for evidence that would support such claims. Anyway, I said it was bold, not because I disagree, but because any accusation (which is probably how your claim will be perceived) will quickly be dismissed and ignored if you can't provide any studies proving your point. I agree, though. I think both men and women are being limited and are limiting themselves because of culturally constructed gender roles. I also don't think that equality in law means actual equality in how people are being treated. To give an example from my own country, dutch moroccans are often still being discriminated against when applying for a job (because young moroccans are often associated with aggression and a bad attitude). While the law tells people not to discriminate based on gender or race, it's relatively easy to evade the law by using comments like 'the job was already taken' or 'you don't fit into our particular profile' or 'you do not meet the requirements'. Equality in law is great, but it doesn't always mean equal treatment.

It's funny to see that according to your powerpoint I'm from a highly egalitarian and low masculine country (The Netherlands). Granted, the study it's based on is a bit dated, but living where I live might just colour my perceptions... My country is probably filled with feminists and sjw's making me less of a man... ;-P

Do you have proof that these threats are from GamerGate?

Do you have proof that GamersGate funded female game development?

Yes...

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-fine-young-capitalists--2

It got funded, not thanks to Zoe Quinn and her peers

and where is your evidence that it got funded because of gamergate?

Google is your friend.

http://wiki.gamergate.me/index.php?title=The_Fine_Young_Capitalists

and through google you can find gamergaters sending threats and harassing people. So if he can use the no true scotsman fallacy to dismiss that why can't I dismiss what he says as well?

Who's to say that gamergate isn't just lying about helping that charity?

Isn't it up to female game developers (or males for that matter) to decide on their own? Nobody wants a third party stepping in and deciding if your product is politically correct enough.

It got funded but not by Gamers Gate so your "proof" has absolutely nothing linking Gamers Gate as an entity funneling $70,000 for the project making your claim a lie. So can you stop using this lie as some sort of validation to GamersGate unbiased nature.

Yep

What? I just gave you proof that anti-GG tried to ddos and doxx the people involved in the project. Gamers an GamerGate funded it...

@Pedro said:

@invisiblejimbsh said:

Something which has been studied to death I believe. Men an women 'tend' to like different games.

They tend to like "different" things because they are exposed to a cultural bias of what to like and what not to like based on their gender. Thats the core reason for the differences and is why its important to have diversity in gaming so that these learnt differences can be broken down through familiarity.

That is just plain stupid, man and woman have different tastes because, and i hope some day garbage feminist understand this, we are not equal, we are different by biology, woman tend to be more caring and gentle, while men tend to be more aggressive and competitive, that's how the world works, and as such men enjoy more those types of games, garbage feminist will say that is a social construct but is not we are made like that, and as such there will never be "equality" because we are not equal. Stupidity of garbage feminists that want to transform both genders in equals because they have some social complex without understanding this.

No! you gave a link to its kickstarter which has no connection to being GamersGate funded. Also don't change the story now. You stated GamersGate funded $70,000, with no evidence off course. Secondly there is factually no evidence as to the origin behind the DDOS.

@The_Last_Ride said: "GG alone gave 70k for development of games for females."