I'm still inclined to play RPGs because of the story, graphics, and whatever else makes them a good game, but it always annoys me how the gameplay requires absolutely no skill and is repetitive. I wish RPGs didn't have leveling systems, and you could just play through them using the skill you've learned. You only need one thing to win battles, experience. If you can't win a boss fight it isn't because he is tricky like in any other game, it is because you haven't fought enough repetitive battles. Go fight a hundred more battles and waste an hour of your life then re-fight the boss and he will become easy.
If you think RPGs require no skills you're playing the wrong ones. I prefer RPGs over ever other genre (well besides Action and fighters) because it is the only genre that provides a challenge for me.
I'm sorry, but I would have to agree that if you think RPGs require no skill...you're playing the wrong ones. Most require a lot of strategic skills...at least the good ones anyway. They require alot of thinking, which is why I like them so much. But there are alot of RPGs that are very repetitive and require absolutely no skill, I would agree with you on that one....but the good ones require lots of skill.
That is why I try to keep myself low level in JRPG. There is a challange when you are on the lower side of level.
For WRPG...nothing can be done. If good a decent prebattle set up then you can win any fight.
Then again I guess being good at preplanning is a skill.
I could say that open world games does not require no skill. Just pick the best angle you want to fight and just walk up while shooting at everyone that is in your way.
For WRPG...nothing can be done. If good a decent prebattle set up then you can win any fight. Then again I guess being good at preplanning is a skill.wiouds
Have you played Dragon Age? Or the original Fallout games? For Dragon Age, set the difficulty to highest level, and you have a challenge on your hands. And yes, planning ahead is considered a skill. It's called "strategy" :P
You guys don't get what he is saying. He isn't saying that RPGs are too easy. He is saying that how good he is at the game doesn't determine the outcome as much as in other genres.
For example, if I am playing Contra 3, I could get to the end of the game with starting equipment and never get hit if I was totally awesome at the game. In most RPGs, it doesn't matter what buttons you push. If the dice rolls in the background aren't in your favor, orif you haven't planned ahead of time to stack those dice rolls in your favor, you lose. Some of you are confusing strategy, which good RPGs usually require, with skill.
You guys don't get what he is saying. He isn't saying that RPGs are too easy. He is saying that how good he is at the game doesn't determine the outcome as much as in other genres.
AtomicTangerine
If you're saying that twitch skills and reflexes have less of an impact than in other genres, then yes, that's true. But one could easily argue that becoming good at a game where your actions have less of an impact, making each one more important, still requires skill and thinking. But the statement, "RPGs require no skill" is an over-simplification and generalization. The mechanics are completely different and require different skills and ways of thinking, nothing more. Building a character from level 1 to 20 and outfitting him/her in optimal gear is just a different kind of skill set -- and how good you are at that determines the outcome of the game. And if you are good enough at it, the dice rolls in the end don't matter that much, because your character's skills, abilities, talents, armor, weapons, and everything else that you have spent the game building up bit by bit, will overcome bad dice rolls and boost the good ones, evening the playing field to where you win through your actions, and nothing more. RPG's are only constraining until you've learned how to work the system. ;)
In most RPGs, it doesn't matter what buttons you push. If the dice rolls in the background aren't in your favor, orif you haven't planned ahead of time to stack those dice rolls in your favor, you lose. Some of you are confusing strategy, which good RPGs usually require, with skill.AtomicTangerine
Even with dice rolls, the proper equipment and planning can make up against luck. If you don't plan ahead, if you don't strategize, you only have yourself to blame. Strategy is a skill; it may not be seen in the stat menu of an RPG, but it is the element that is most determined by the player. There aren't many games that are completely determined by luck, and those aren't generally the good ones either.
Is strategy really a skill? Isn't it on or off? You either plan right or plan wrong. At best you plan best for the given situation-however all this does is foster trial-and-error, with enough information gathered from this process you can overcome almost anything. Whereas twitch skills are infinitenly improvable-no matter how good you are you could do better-no matter how well you know the best way to beat something-if it requires twitch skills then you still may not be able to do it. Let me put it this way. If you were to follow a guide for both an action game and a RPG you would find the guide would basically walk you through the RPG whereas it would only point you in the right direction in an action game (the rest being decided by your own reflexes).
I think that the concept of gaining better stats from gaining levels is antiquated. That's not to say that I hate it. I just don't think it's very necessary or that it adds much to a game. I think progress in a game should be rewarded via more options (which are necessary for different situations) rather than just arbitrarily increasing some numbers.
However, I still think that gear should boost stats, because finding and buying items can be a rather enjoyable part of games.
Is strategy really a skill? Isn't it on or off? You either plan right or plan wrong. At best you plan best for the given situation-however all this does is foster trial-and-error, with enough information gathered from this process you can overcome almost anything. Whereas twitch skills are infinitenly improvable-no matter how good you are you could do better-no matter how well you know the best way to beat something-if it requires twitch skills then you still may not be able to do it.Articuno76
To me, this sounds a lot like saying, "beating a computer at chess requires no skill, you just have to move the pieces the way the rules say". Anyone who plays chess and knows the game well would disagree since it does take considerable skill and practice to become good at chess. It's just not that visible to someone who doesn't know anything about it. It's a lot like poker that way. Though you might just have been playing the wrong RPGs. Making a good one, that requires skill from the player isn't easy either.
[QUOTE="Articuno76"]Is strategy really a skill? Isn't it on or off? You either plan right or plan wrong. At best you plan best for the given situation-however all this does is foster trial-and-error, with enough information gathered from this process you can overcome almost anything. Whereas twitch skills are infinitenly improvable-no matter how good you are you could do better-no matter how well you know the best way to beat something-if it requires twitch skills then you still may not be able to do it.ChiliDragon
To me, this sounds a lot like saying, "beating a computer at chess requires no skill, you just have to move the pieces the way the rules say". Anyone who plays chess and knows the game well would disagree since it does take considerable skill and practice to become good at chess. It's just not that visible to someone who doesn't know anything about it. It's a lot like poker that way.
Though you might just have been playing the wrong RPGs. Making a good one, that requires skill from the player isn't easy either.
I don't like that analogy at all. The trial-and-error part in a RPG comes from not knowing that spells and other abilities you are going to encounter with a new enemy. In chess, you know all the rules up front and your opponent is playing by the same ones you are.
What he says is true, to some degree. If I'm in a game where some boss is going to user a bunch of fire attacks (but I don't know that before I fight it), and I lose the battle, then the next time around maybe I will go in wearing equipment that reduces fire damage or something. That is trial-and-error.
In some sense, chess for a beginner or maybe even an amateur does entail trial-and-error, but this is due to the game's complexity and rather huge number of possible future game states. It isn't tied to directly hidden information. That's not really the same thing at all.
[QUOTE="StopThePresses"]I don't like that analogy at all. The trial-and-error part in a RPG comes from not knowing that spells and other abilities you are going to encounter with a new enemy. In Chess, you know all the rules up front and your opponent is playing by the same ones you are. What he says is true, to some degree. If I'm in a game where some boss is going to user a bunch of fire attacks (but I don't know that before I fight it), and I lose the battle, then the next time around maybe I will go in wearing equipment that reduces fire damage or something. That is trial-and-error. Alternatively, it's a learning experience. ;) The chess analogy is flawed, I know, but I was in a hurry. The point I'm making (or trying to at least) is that it requires a different kind of skills than an action game. Yes, one way to deal with the fire breathing dragon if to fight it over and over until you through trial and error get it right. That does not sound like it's either fun or rewarding though... Did you ever play Dragon Age? There's a quest where you do fight a fire breathing dragon, and with the trial and error method it would probably take you days to defeat it. Or you can plan your strategy ahead of time, be creative with your skills and how you use them, make sure you bring the right party members, micromanage their actions, and win on the first attempt.
I like RPG that require thinking while in a battle. Force to change What I am doing. I take as much pride in taking out a group in a single turn as betting a bose.
For many WRPG I do not change they way I fight. From Dragon Age. I juse use what every power is fully charge and I do juest fine as long as I have many healing agent it does not matter. Even when I carry a huge number of healing agent in a JRPG there still more limit about when I can use them.
[QUOTE="StopThePresses"]I don't like that analogy at all. The trial-and-error part in a RPG comes from not knowing that spells and other abilities you are going to encounter with a new enemy. In Chess, you know all the rules up front and your opponent is playing by the same ones you are. What he says is true, to some degree. If I'm in a game where some boss is going to user a bunch of fire attacks (but I don't know that before I fight it), and I lose the battle, then the next time around maybe I will go in wearing equipment that reduces fire damage or something. That is trial-and-error. In some sense, Chess for a beginner or maybe even an amateur does entail trial-and-error, but this is due to the game's complexity and rather huge number of possible future game states. It isn't tied to directly hidden information. That's not really the same thing at all. I think part of the problem here is that there is a plethora of different styles of RPGs that the TC has not bothered to specify. JRPGs, I would assume, are much more likely to see the trial-and-error style upon which you are commenting, though they do entire a great deal of combat preparation strategy, as well as strategy during the combat. More Western-styled RPGs are generally geared toward all-purpose encounters, and you have to determine the best armors and weapons for the general encounters.
I agree that JRPG's don't require much skill except for grinding and strategy, and WRPG require not much skill but at least you don't have to grind.gbpackers94
I agree that JRPG's don't require much skill except for grinding and strategy, and WRPG require not much skill but at least you don't have to grind.gbpackers94
That is true if you don't care what level you are in JRPG but if you try to get a lower level then that is another matter all together but it does not require to be low level. I am almost always lower than other say you need to be. With that though trying to win Halo 3 just by punching is require but take more skill.
In WRPG you can use healing agent so many times. Low on health just run back and heal and don't for get the lure one enemy at a time.
I think part of the problem here is that there is a plethora of different styles of RPGs that the TC has not bothered to specify.muthsera666
True, which is why I was saying earlier that TC might just have played the wrong ones. :) Demons Souls is brutally difficult, and so are the Gothic games (or so I've been told... haven't had a chance to start playing them yet).
I think every rpg has a sweet spot. Too underleveled and you get owned. Too overleveled and you own. But play it just right, and you could be in for an intriguing battle, where your knowledge of the games' mechanics will be important. It may be more logical than skill, but it's still a lot of fun. And comparing it to twitch-skill? Seriously that's like the lowest form of skill, nothing to really be proud of. Sure you can raise it, but you get to a level where you just don't care (or have the time to care), and settle for getting by, if not achieving the highest score. Though I have to say isn't Demon's Souls the epitome of trial and error? I mean most people who know how to play it, don't consider it hard, just tedious if you die(well at least in normal runthrough, not new game +). Too bad I usually play with patience and in a slow manner, fighting foes one by one in most games, so DS didn't leave all that big an impact on me.
[QUOTE="gbpackers94"]I agree that JRPG's don't require much skill except for grinding and strategy, and WRPG require not much skill but at least you don't have to grind.jasonharris48
Joke post? Well take Dragon Quest VIII. All you really do is walk and get into battles. Then you just click attack, flee, or heal, although there is a little strategy needed to win, it doesn't really matter what you do if you aren't a high enough level. I feel like I'm digging myself into a hole, I'm going to stop now.
[QUOTE="gbpackers94"]I agree that JRPG's don't require much skill except for grinding and strategy, and WRPG require not much skill but at least you don't have to grind.gbpackers94
Joke post? Well take Dragon Quest VIII. All you really do is walk and get into battles. Then you just click attack, flee, or heal, although there is a little strategy needed to win, it doesn't really matter what you do if you aren't a high enough level. I feel like I'm digging myself into a hole, I'm going to stop now. In a shooter, all you do is pull the trigger....
[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"][QUOTE="StopThePresses"]I don't like that analogy at all. The trial-and-error part in a RPG comes from not knowing that spells and other abilities you are going to encounter with a new enemy. In Chess, you know all the rules up front and your opponent is playing by the same ones you are. What he says is true, to some degree. If I'm in a game where some boss is going to user a bunch of fire attacks (but I don't know that before I fight it), and I lose the battle, then the next time around maybe I will go in wearing equipment that reduces fire damage or something. That is trial-and-error. Alternatively, it's a learning experience. ;) The chess analogy is flawed, I know, but I was in a hurry. The point I'm making (or trying to at least) is that it requires a different kind of skills than an action game. Yes, one way to deal with the fire breathing dragon if to fight it over and over until you through trial and error get it right. That does not sound like it's either fun or rewarding though... Did you ever play Dragon Age? There's a quest where you do fight a fire breathing dragon, and with the trial and error method it would probably take you days to defeat it. Or you can plan your strategy ahead of time, be creative with your skills and how you use them, make sure you bring the right party members, micromanage their actions, and win on the first attempt. If there is a boss you can win on the first attempt without using a guide, I highly doubt there are people that are taking days to defeat it. What you implied here is that you have enough information beforehand to know how to prepare, and I was referring to games where the game does not give you such information.
If you think RPGs require no skills you're playing the wrong ones.
jasonharris48
My thoughts exactly. There are plenty of RPGs out there that require skill such as Oblivion, Morrowind, Demon's Souls, Star Ocean 4, Tales of Vesperia, Kingdom Hearts and Dark Cloud 2.
If there is a boss you can win on the first attempt without using a guide, I highly doubt there are people that are taking days to defeat it. What you implied here is that you have enough information beforehand to know how to prepare, and I was referring to games where the game does not give you such information.StopThePresses
So what you're implying is that in a game that had not given me any information to work with it would actually have been easier for me, since those games, per your earlier posts, require no skills from the player at all? :? You need to start to actually list the RPGs you're talking about, because I'm having a hard time thinking of a game that gives the players no information whatsoever on how to play it effectively, and that said players still can beat without actually knowing how to play.
Not quite, given the right games they require a certain amount of strategy and tactic. If you don't like RPGs, then go play other genres you consider to be harder. It's all in preference, and it's not for everyone.
Well take Dragon Quest VIII. All you really do is walk and get into battles. Then you just click attack, flee, or heal, although there is a little strategy needed to win, it doesn't really matter what you do if you aren't a high enough level. I feel like I'm digging myself into a hole, I'm going to stop now.gbpackers94
Aha... well, that's a far cry from the RPGs that I think some of us are talking about. in the one I'm playing right now, the combat goes like this. It's unfortunately not a very good video, it's a bit disorganized, but the only ones I could find that showed a boss fight from start to finish had major plot spoilers either in the video or YouTube comments. I'd suggest not looking at the comments for this one either, actually, just to make sure.
[QUOTE="StopThePresses"]If there is a boss you can win on the first attempt without using a guide, I highly doubt there are people that are taking days to defeat it. What you implied here is that you have enough information beforehand to know how to prepare, and I was referring to games where the game does not give you such information.ChiliDragon
So what you're implying is that in a game that had not given me any information to work with it would actually have been easier for me, since those games, per your earlier posts, require no skills from the player at all? :? Where on Earth did I say that? Don't put other people's words in my mouth please. Anyway, acquiring knowledge is not the same thing as acquiring skill. If I'm playing a Megaman game and I know the weakness of every boss and use the corresponding weapons, that does not demonstrate skill. That demonstrates knowledge.
On the other hand, if I can kill them all without getting hit, that probably demonstrates skill. (Of course it would also demonstrate knowledge, because skill imples knowledge.) Now to do that in a typical RPG, that would simply mean grinding until your guys have really high evasion relative to the enemies you are facing or acquiring some kind of armor or ability that confers a similar benefit. That's not "skill". That's just investing time.
rpgs provide fake difficulty, where winning conditions are decided more so by random numbers than skill. even pokemon is fake difficulty. it doesn't take that much to remember the different types and their weaknesses, and to go to some base stats list to find the best team. It takes time, not skill. Unless the rpg does not have random generation for accuracy, encounters, etc, it is fake difficulty. I really don't like games like this.
If you think RPGs require no skills you're playing the wrong ones.
My thoughts exactly. There are plenty of RPGs out there that require skill such as Oblivion, Morrowind, Demon's Souls, Star Ocean 4, Tales of Vesperia, Kingdom Hearts and Dark Cloud 2.
those aren't rpgs. All games require you to 'play a role' of some kind. but what the tc probably means is games that are determined in turn based systems. the games you listed are all real time. oblivion is a 'fps', tales games are 'fighting' games.
[QUOTE="gbpackers94"]I agree that JRPG's don't require much skill except for grinding and strategy, and WRPG require not much skill but at least you don't have to grind.gbpackers94
Joke post? Well take Dragon Quest VIII. All you really do is walk and get into battles. Then you just click attack, flee, or heal, although there is a little strategy needed to win, it doesn't really matter what you do if you aren't a high enough level. I feel like I'm digging myself into a hole, I'm going to stop now. One title doesn't speak for all JRPGs. Go play Fire Emblem, any MegaTen titles, Majin Tensei, FF Tactics, Demon Souls (so I hear). I bet you won't make that same remark
Where on Earth did I say that? Don't put other people's words in my mouth please. Anyway, acquiring knowledge is not the same thing as acquiring skill. If I'm playing a Megaman game and I know the weakness of every boss and use the corresponding weapons, that does not demonstrate skill. That demonstrates knowledge.StopThePresses
If Megaman was an RPG that comparison would be more valid. Do keep in mind that in most RPGs you do not know these things about bosses ahead of time, by the way.
On the other hand, if I can kill them all without getting hit, that probably demonstrates skill. (Of course it would also demonstrate knowledge, because skill imples knowledge.) Now to do that in a typical RPG, that would simply mean grinding until your guys have really high evasion relative to the enemies you are facing or acquiring some kind of armor or ability that confers a similar benefit. That's not "skill". That's just investing time.StopThePresses
In a narrow sub-genre of RPGs, that is true, but not by far all of them, which means you like the other guy I said this to, need to start either listing games or explain what you mean with an RPG, because I seriously doubt what I think about and what I'm talking about is the same as what you're thinking about.
If you think RPGs require no skills you're playing the wrong ones.
Perd1t1on
My thoughts exactly. There are plenty of RPGs out there that require skill such as Oblivion, Morrowind, Demon's Souls, Star Ocean 4, Tales of Vesperia, Kingdom Hearts and Dark Cloud 2.
those aren't rpgs. All games require you to 'play a role' of some kind. but what the tc probably means is games that are determined in turn based systems. the games you listed are all real time. oblivion is a 'fps', tales games are 'fighting' games. IF you think the Tales titles are like fighters you need to play more action based JRPGs and fighters lol. As for ES: Oblivion (as mush I as dislike the game) it is an Action RPG. It plays nothing like a "RPS" title. Bethesda had always hap their titles st in a first person perspective because of their influence from early WRPG titles. As for TC he was speaking of both WRPG and JRPG and not just turn based titles.
[QUOTE="StopThePresses"] Where on Earth did I say that? Don't put other people's words in my mouth please. Anyway, acquiring knowledge is not the same thing as acquiring skill. If I'm playing a Megaman game and I know the weakness of every boss and use the corresponding weapons, that does not demonstrate skill. That demonstrates knowledge.ChiliDragon
If Megaman was an RPG that comparison would be more valid. Do keep in mind that in most RPGs you do not know these things about bosses ahead of time, by the way.
On the other hand, if I can kill them all without getting hit, that probably demonstrates skill. (Of course it would also demonstrate knowledge, because skill imples knowledge.) Now to do that in a typical RPG, that would simply mean grinding until your guys have really high evasion relative to the enemies you are facing or acquiring some kind of armor or ability that confers a similar benefit. That's not "skill". That's just investing time.StopThePresses
In a narrow sub-genre of RPGs, that is true, but not by far all of them, which means you like the other guy I said this to, need to start either listing games or explain what you mean with an RPG, because I seriously doubt what I think about and what I'm talking about is the same as what you're thinking about. Okay, I'll bite. In what RPGs can you not get hit at all, where it is dependent upon skill and it isn't dependent mostly upon your experience level and gear?
RPGs do in fact require skills, just a different kind of skill. All games require some kind of skill. That is why you have some people who are awesome at games like kingdom hearts, but then give them a first person shooter and they totally suck. Same thing goes on with RPGs....some people are awesome at first person shooters, but suck at RPGs.Then again, some people possess all the skills. Each type of game requires a different skill to get through each one.
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