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MetalGear_Ninty

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#1 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts

[QUOTE="Person0"][QUOTE="iHarlequin"]

 

Extreme economic liberalism, that lead to the crash of 29 and the following great depression, is estimated to have caused over six million deaths in the U.S. (http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/19-05-2008/105255-famine-0/). For better and for worse things are not black and white, and you can't extirpate all the benefits the cultural revolution brought. China shifted from a country that had no technology development of its own, relying on the Soviet Union, to, after the Soviet Union left them post-Khrushchev's abandomnent, a country that was industrially self-sustainable. The shift from agrarian production to light and heavy industries in sizes ranging from domestic/small (dominant) to large was what led to the great famines, as agriculture production suffered with the partial rural exodus. Every country had severe issues when they shifted from an agrarian model to that of industrial production.


If you'd care to know more about the subject rather than deny it on unbased ideology, I recommend starting with 'The Chinese Road to Socialism', by Edward L. Wheelwright and Bruce McFarlane. They're a pair of Australian economists who visited China multiple times in the sixties, as the Cultural Revolution ocurred, and compiled the data from census, China's position in the global economy, social factors and more in order to demonstrate what the changes brought on by Mao's policies did.

iHarlequin

That article compares people working on public works projects to Gulags..... seems legit. The revolution pretty much destroyed a generation of educated people, that is never good. The cultural revolution almost collapsed the Chinese economy calling it anything but a failure is wrong.

 

It's called a REVOLUTION for a reason. This mindset that often proceeds would be the same of someone justifying the French revolution as something 'bad', because it indeed killed several thousand noblemen and counter-revolutionaries; or the 1917 revolution because of how many were also killed in order to quell any possible counter-revolutions.

 

As to your second 'appraisal', it comes to show how little you do know of China's economy.  People love to ignore the rules there are for cause and effect and associate China's surging progress in the 70's to, solely, Deng's liberal (in contrast to Mao's) economic policies. The fact of the matter is that Deng Xiaoping built China's economic progress upon the foundations of an already consolidated industry, largely self-sufficient and with scientific discoveries (methods of producing steel, using domestic and industrial refuse for gas-production, etc.) powering their steady progress in the process of industrialization. Contrary to what we now see in China, with its economy centered around the SEZ's, the idea at the time of the Cultural Revolution was to have self-sufficient centers in both industry and agriculture peppered throughout the country. The very fact that there was a huge incentive toward the creation of domestic industry, rather than large-scale ones (which could easily operate at a loss due to the creation of solely management posts), showed how there was a great movement toward creating an egalitarian society, rather than one in line with the intriniscally unfair capitalist competition. 

 

He sacrificed the social progress toward equality, then still unfinished, in order to accelerate growth with capitalist measures. It is as worse as saying that the Soviet revolution at the start of the twentieth century was a stain on Russia's history, disregarding how it brought a country that was poor and had one of the world's worst case of social disparity to industrialization, wealth and political power concentration because of the people who died during it. Preserving the status quo isn't inherently good, specially when said status quo promotes inequality.

Yep, just like the Germanic nationalist revolution of of the late 30s and 40s. There was no choice but to get rid of the Jewish, socialist and homosexual counter-revolutionaries...right? ...oh wait
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#2 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts
[QUOTE="Person0"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="famicommander"]Economics is certainly a real science, but it's not an empirical one like physics or chemistry. Economics is a science of human action like philosophy or sociology. And good economists do not indeed assume, as you say, that people have perfect information or access to information. A good economist simply assumes that, given any end, a person will choose the means which are least expensive to him in order to reach that end. A good economist assumes that a person will always benefit from any voluntary exchange because if he didn't expect to benefit no exchange would take place. More information may become available later and cause a person to regret an exchange, but that doesn't change the fact that he believed he would benefit at the time the exchange was made.

All science is empirical. That is the meaning of the word 'science'

Economics is a social science and it does use empirical evidence. (at least main stream economics does)

Yes, that's my point. If it didn't use empirical evidence, than it wouldn't be a science.
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#3 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts
[QUOTE="famicommander"]Economics is certainly a real science, but it's not an empirical one like physics or chemistry. Economics is a science of human action like philosophy or sociology. And good economists do not indeed assume, as you say, that people have perfect information or access to information. A good economist simply assumes that, given any end, a person will choose the means which are least expensive to him in order to reach that end. A good economist assumes that a person will always benefit from any voluntary exchange because if he didn't expect to benefit no exchange would take place. More information may become available later and cause a person to regret an exchange, but that doesn't change the fact that he believed he would benefit at the time the exchange was made.

All science is empirical. That is the meaning of the word 'science'
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#4 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts

There it is again, personal or political opinions... Misogney is bad, it means hating women, because they are women. Just like homophobia is hating gay people because they are gay and...so on and so forth. Misogney is not like an issue like abortion! It is not something you can come down on a side of. It is bad, it gives men some bad ideas about how women should be treated and it gives wmen bad ideas on what being a woman means, You cannot be pro misogney, and someone bringing it up in a review is the reviewers job if they see it is a problem. Hell, I may play the game when amazon finally send me it and find that I dont agree with her. But she had to raise it if she saw it that way just like anyone who reviews birth of a nation should let people know it is full of racism. Seriously, this is not some political idea. And my main point and question is, why is a reviewer bringing this up such an issue for the games commnity? Most critics in film, tv, music, would mention if the thing they are reviewing has racist views, why the hell can't you guys see that this is no different?Michelleisright
It is because of her own personal and political sensibilities that she would regard GTAV as being misogynistic - a lot of people who didn't share her political opinions would not consider the game to be innately misogynistic.

Furthermore, you speak as if there is unanimous agreement even within feminist literature and intellectual discourse regarding what is and isn't considered to be sexist or misogynistic, which is simply not the case. If I am to use your analogy, it would be OK for a reviewer to point out racism in a piece of media such as TV and film which was actually blatantly and undisputedly racist, however, the reviewer would be straying into the realms of subjectivity and political bias if she called racism in a review in which that call was largely disputed and not agreed upon by the majority of other reviewers and the majority of the audience.

In this case, the game does not seem to be undisputedly misogynistic. Petit has no place using Gamespot as a platform for her own political views and opinions at the expense of what she is paid to do i.e. provide objective reviews

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#5 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts

[QUOTE="Twin-Blade"]

Upon further thinking, I'd like to make a complaint regarding the Gamespot staff member Carolyn Petit on the grounds of misandry. In her critique of a game that depicts males as sleazy, sadistic, morally-decrepit criminals, she completely overlooks them when discussing the way characters are depicted, though emphasizes and criticises the portrayal of women within the game. Where is the justice here? Are we meant to interpret such a stereotype to be the social norm for men? Is the male sex so inferior that such issues do not even raise an eyebrow? All I'm looking for is some equality here.

Michelleisright

I may get accused of a few things here... In video games in general, the vast, vast, vast majority of characters and voices are male. The people that make the games, mostly male. Men run the video games industry. Just look at E3, how many women key notes have there ever been? As a woman, I find that deeply problematic in itself. So I guess my point is, women get an awful deal in video games. We don't have many strong voices. I am not saying you have no point at all. Male characters in games can also be problematic too, but I guess I am saying that when men write men in games for men 90% of the time...womens representation is a lot worse than mens representation. Unrelated to what twin-blade posted, I have to say, gamespot commenters and people on these boards...many of you (but not all by a long shot) are not seeing your privilege here. Video games shouldnt really be so male dominated, and I dont have any reasons as to why that is, but what I do know is that many different people play video games. They aren't just for you and if a reviewer mentions something that doesnt apply to you then why is that such an issue? I mean, I would argue that misogny, racism, sexism, homophobia do apply to everyone but why did this strike such a nerve? What is wrong with pointing out hateful misogny in a video game? Why is this being put in a "personal agenda" box? Got to say I haven't played the game yet, so I don't know how bad gta v is for this stuff. But regardless of how bad gta 5 is for this stuff (and that is a conversation worth having in a month or so when everyone gets to play it properly and the hype dies down) why is someone pointing out sexism percieved as some kind of attack? Carolyn Petit is one of the few women who reviews games proffesionally (and possibly the only trans person). She is going to notice and interpret these things because when is the last time a woman like her has been depicted in a video game? It may have happened but I cant think of a time. And she writes as a person who is different from the male dominated culture. Does that make her points any less valid? If you answered yes, and you believe that being a woman makes your views on games less valid, stop reading now. We will never agree and the rest of my post will annoy you. And also, go away, you are a bad person. But the (mostly male) fans dont see the problem here as "this video game may be sexist, lets explore that and see if video games have a problem". Its reaction is to have fired one of the few voices for women in video games because she dared speak for a part of gamerdom that is mostly ignored. This whole thing has been very distressing, because it is clear that, if a woman has a problem with a game because she is upset at how people like her are portrayed, that men don't appear to be able to deal with it and somehow, they blame her for noticing it and the problem is hers. How are women supposed to get more of a voice in this climate? Hell, I am probably going to get shouted down because I am a woman defending another woman. This is a classic example of a minority voicing a problem and the majority seeing it as an attack on their rights because their privilige has blinded them (like when for the first time ever a woman takes a post that has only ever been occupied by guys, and the guys assume it is because she is a woman instead of her credentials and it is an attack on men....) Unless you are all actually women....then this entire post falls down...:D

We are not saying that she is not entitled to her personal opinions and personal affectations concerning particular political and social issues in games.

What we are saying is that she is paid to not bring her own political and personal opinions into what is supposed to be an objective game review for a largely apolitical and non-partisan audience Would it be correct for a similar reviewer to to lower the score of a game because she may perceive that game to be pro-abortion and pro-choice? Even though the vast majority of that reviewer's audience disagreed with her personal political opinions?

Petit should have written an op-ed if she was so concerned, but absolutely no business trying to enforce her own political opinions in the game review...

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#6 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts
Personally, with the Quiet character and more miffed at the fact that Kojima by giving the character an unattractive face but what many would deem as a nice body is dehumanising and objectifying her by moving the emphasis of her feminine sexuality from the face to the body --however that is only a first impression and will have to wait until the game comes out to give a full verdict.
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#7 MetalGear_Ninty
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I also should point out that there is always going to be some objectification in media, for example, whatever the sex, the lead characters of a particular franchise is going to be somewhat attractive - a big games developer is unlikely to cast an ugly guy or girl as its lead character. I think the current discussion should not concern whether objectification of male or female characters should exist in games - but what extent should we permit this sexualisation and secondly whether there is a large disparity between the sexualisation of male and females in that videogame franchise. I am not saying blatant sexism doesn't exist in videogames, I'm just saying that if you are going to start to point the finger, then MGS is probably the wrong franchise to pick on
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#8 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts

Both men and women in games may be idealized, but women a far more likely to be idealized and sexualized. Raiden being naked was a) part of the plot, not a costume choice, and b) more about making the character appear vunerable and helpless, and was more than a little comical, not sexy or erotic, and was not intended as a way of exciting female gamers. Nudity doesn't automatically equal sexy. Yes the male characters are designed to be attractive, but they are not sexualized in the same way. The key is the difference between object and subject. Snake and Raiden are the subjects of the games, we are meant to identify with and to a certain extent, take on their personality. Quiet is there primarily to be looked at and desired, her role in the game could be achieved without her having to be semi naked. So why make her wear a bikini? If Snake were to perform his missions in nothing but Speedos and jungle boots it would be laughable, gamers would not accept it, so why is it acceptable for a sniper, a supposedly highly trained professional, to go about her business dressed in beachwear?

The Boss may not be as blatantly sexualized, but she still is to some degree. Why is it necessary for her to expose her cleavage in such an obvious fashion? What purpose does it serve her role as Snake's superior, mentor and friend? Same with Sniper Wolf, who also seems incapable of fastening her zipper all the way to the top? They are both powerful, capable and kick-ass characters to be sure, but why is it also necessary or them to display their cleavages? It serves no purpose other than to be looked at.

If Quiet was the main character instead of Snake, I seriously doubt her costume would be quite so inappropriate (from a practical, not moral point of view) because her role as protagonist serves a different function. It is hard to identify with your on screen avatar infiltrating enemy compounds and taking down guards when what she is wearing makes no sense to most gamers, male or female. But supporting characters perform a different function in the game's narrative and they are much easier to objectify. Think of Mass Effect. Fem Shep is essentially the same as Male Shep, yet most of the supporting characters (both male and female) to varying degrees, are idealized/sexualized objects designed to be looked at, not identified with. Miranda and Jacob in particular are essentially the same charcter in both genders, physically attractive, almost perfect characters designed to be sexually attractive to the main character first and foremost, regardless of sexual orientation.

What I meant by blatant sexism, was the industry's habit of sexualizing female characters through revealing (and sometimes entirely impractical) costumes compared to male characters, and that Kojima is, either intentionally, or simply through complacency, perpetuating this sexism. Whether or not he is a genuinely sexist man I have no idea, never met him. My real objection is Kojima's attitude that this kind of thing is OK, desirable even. If an office manager required his female employees to wear short skirts and bikini tops, whilst men can wear regular office attire, he would be labeled a sexist. Why if a game designer requires female characters to wear revealing clothes (for no practical reason) and male characters not he gets a pass? The attitude is the same regardless; its the way of thinking that is the problem.

It is a very fair point about waiting for the game to be released. It could be that Quiet only wears this costume in one scene for a very specific reason. But this does not make up for the fact this unbalanced representation of characters is prolific in games in general.

For a long time I have just accepted this in games, it bugged me but I just ignored it and grumbled under my breath. But there was something about this one, the obviousness of Quiet's costume and the attitude of Kojima that just got under my skin. I'm no raging feminist, but why are games so far behind film and TV (which to be fair are less than ideal, but a hell of a lot better) when it comes to presenting kick ass women? Or is it a male thing? Do we think about and perceive these issues in a different way? Is it a Japanese thing? Do the Japanese perceive it in a totally different light than westerners? I love games and gaming, but I just wish we could have female characters that are kick ass, but dont need be dressed like strippers for no good reason.

 

 

 

 

otakool
You're forgetting again about the host of male supporting characters in MGS that are also semi-naked? Liquid Snake? Vamp? Of course, there is blatant sexism in the games industry, but I think MGS is the least sexist with regards to the fact that it seems to objectify both male and female characters to an equal or similar extent. As for the specific issue of Quiet...I'm going to wait until I've played the game for me to pass judgement.
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#9 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts
"Shinkawa wanted to make Raiden sexually appealing, emphasizing the tightness of his clothing" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raiden_(Metal_Gear)
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#10 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts

The same Kojima who give us one of the greatest and strongest female characters in gaming history with The Boss from MGS 3. Not to mention other great, non-sexualised female characters in Kojima games. Your post is knee-jerk and completely ill-thought. It epitomises the complete debasement and vacuousness of the intellectual discourse or lack thereof between this age's intelligent youths

NB: Besides, shouldn't we wait until the game comes out before we decide whether the representation of this character in the game is sexist or not