Debate: Should games be imersive at the start?

After listening to this weeks The Hotspot podcast, they brought up and interesting point that is something I often feel.

Some great and not so great games tend to start off poorly and not really imerese the player. I am thinking of games like Oblivion or Gran Turismo. You are stuck in the sewers on Oblivion and have to spend about an hour just to get outside after mounds of text that seem to be irrelevant at the time as it doesnt make any sense. There is lack of apathy for the characters at the time so you just want to move but can not. On Gran Turismo or Forza you are stuck with the cars you dont want to use as they are not very fast for a racing game and you have to spend ages doing liceneses on Gran Turismo.

Do you think developers should change this, where you are basically getting very poor gameplay and story at the start and perhaps try and get you more involved and hook the player straight off?

How long do you think its reasonable to play a game before deciding whether its any good or not (i.e. must you complete it to give a fairly reasonable opinion of it or can 10 minutes be enough)?

Discuss

Why though? I mean surely the game is loosing people by making it a challenge to grab you? Oblivion should be open to all, not just fans surely? Sales would be higher and more people would also play and experience it. I agree with what you say but there is also the oportunity to get more interested in it, I dislike many RPG's based on how slow they take to get into, I dont have 100 hours to emerese myself in one game now and spend many hours on one title at a single point, I like to dip in and out and games like Blue Dragon dont help players like myself.Garfield360UK

I personally think if you enjoyed Fallout 3 as much as you say, then you should give Oblivion another go, because essentially they are the same game wearing different clothes.

I know I don't like Lara Croft as a character so I'll never play those games, no matter how awesome they are. I also know I love rpgs so I'm willing to give an unknown game like Mass Effect a go. As for GTA games, well you get out of them what you put in and I've always found the storylines to be very gripping, but then I like mafia based stuff.

I think in racing games, if you were to be given the best cars straight away, then the game would be pointless and why bother. You would always just drive the fastest car. I prefer to tune up some random cars and catch peiople unawares, such as with my VW Golf which out accelerates Ferraris.

I think what you like as a gamer is a game you can quickly throw yourself into. That's fine. That is your taste. Me, I like games to slowly open up to me, though I think MGS is one exception. I don't want to wait 90 minutes before I can actually start playing the damn game.

[QUOTE="Garfield360UK"]Why though? I mean surely the game is loosing people by making it a challenge to grab you? Oblivion should be open to all, not just fans surely? Sales would be higher and more people would also play and experience it. I agree with what you say but there is also the oportunity to get more interested in it, I dislike many RPG's based on how slow they take to get into, I dont have 100 hours to emerese myself in one game now and spend many hours on one title at a single point, I like to dip in and out and games like Blue Dragon dont help players like myself.pai-may

I personally think if you enjoyed Fallout 3 as much as you say, then you should give Oblivion another go, because essentially they are the same game wearing different clothes.

I know I don't like Lara Croft as a character so I'll never play those games, no matter how awesome they are. I also know I love rpgs so I'm willing to give an unknown game like Mass Effect a go. As for GTA games, well you get out of them what you put in and I've always found the storylines to be very gripping, but then I like mafia based stuff.

I think in racing games, if you were to be given the best cars straight away, then the game would be pointless and why bother. You would always just drive the fastest car. I prefer to tune up some random cars and catch peiople unawares, such as with my VW Golf which out accelerates Ferraris.

I think what you like as a gamer is a game you can quickly throw yourself into. That's fine. That is your taste. Me, I like games to slowly open up to me, though I think MGS is one exception. I don't want to wait 90 minutes before I can actually start playing the damn game.

I am just claryfying these are not my examples, but the one from the hotspot. They also did call Fallout 3 out with the Oblivion example but also did say that it was a tad better at the start as it had more impact than "lets kill sewer rats". However I do agree, it just talks at you and expects you to listen to 20 minutes of dialouge after waiting to just get out of the room for a while as you are just stuck there and it gives no indication whether you should look for a way out or what.

You make good points but would a game over one hundered hours catch many as you say or just a niche market?

I agree with the racing point but there does need to be a sense of speed and Gran Turismo did not used to give that at the start (with GT5 prologue the start cars are admitedly a tad faster than the Mini Cooper).

I can see where you are coming from but I am putting the point of the podcast across. I like a good story but I dont like a story that goes on and on and on as I loose interest, I have a shortish attention span so games really need to click with me otherwise I just dont play them if I dont get the point of it (such as Saints Row, I didnt get the point so I gave up with it).

Then the producer of the podcast really doesn't know what he's talking about. Fallout 3, the first 15 or so minutes set up the entire story arc for the game. Oblivion, you actually do more than kill rats, you defend the Emperor from assassins and watch the ruler of the empire get murdered, that again sets up the entire main story arc. Without this exposition and then without the freedom to do as you please during the games themselves, these games would be totally different and lesser entities.

I think in racing games you get a sense of speed as long as they are done right. My first car in Forza 2 was a VW golf and I was quite happy with that.

I think from the sounds of it you should leave these sort of games alone more often than not then, and definately give MGS4 a miss. If you have a short attention span you'll be asleep before you get to do anything in that game.

Maybe, I just like a game that clicks with me, I dont really know what does and what does not. Some games I instantly go "yes I like this" and some I got "hmm maybe when I get further in I will like it". Final Fantasy 8 I enjoyed about 30 minutes into it but Final Fantasy 7 I played maybe 3 or 4 hours and got stuck and thought "forget this" and moved on. I agree with what you are saying on sense of speed and that is a key thing, I mean some games you feel like its going ultra slow is when there is a problem.

But I do think Oblivion could have started much better, as to give the impression of why you should care about the Emperor at the start, it doesnt really give much towards that from my memory (I am biast here I admit as I have only done the opening once and that was well over a year ago).

I did like the MGS4 demo also :P

I'm a patient guy and if I pay money for a game I won't feel comfortable abandoning a game just because the start was bad. I've completed literally everything in Oblivion and I know for sure I would have regretted abandoning just because they made me punch rats at the beginning. I don't remember how I felt about the beginning of Oblivion, I think I just focused on escaping and seeing what else the game has to offer. It's only natural that games save the best for later and abandoning it was not a question for me.

Unless you absolutely dreaded the first portion of a game and see no reason to torment yourself any further, then it's a good enough reason to stop. I know I removed that Naruto game from my game history because I absolutely dreaded it and I'm the furthest from a weeaboo or wapanese as they come, and having a game with 0 gamerscore in my game history is a real self-inflicted wound for someone like me.

I say you need to at least spend an hour or two before deciding that a game is too dreadful for you to continue. Then again I don't abandon games period unless there is something seriously wrong, either because the game was awful (Naruto) or because I was too awful to make any progress (Street Fighter II, Metal Slug 3). Then again we are different people, I know I am probably the biggest completionist here and if there is more to do in a game I will do it if I can. Fuel isn't exactly fun, the novelty of having gigantic countrysides have worn off now that I've driven over 1000 km and it's all been countryside after countryside and mountain after mountain and forest after forest, but there are still cars to be unlocked and achievements to be gotten, so I will get it all done.

I think Garfield it sounds like you are a little guilty of picking up the wrong sort of games for you. Oblivion aint your game and neither is Final Fantasy. You renjoyed Fallout 3 probably because it is actiony and shooty, and you can be as involved as you like in the story. I think you do need to give some games more of a go though. Why bother buying Forza for example if you are not going to tool up some of your cars, knowing that that is a big part of the game in the first place? I think perhaps you need to be more selective with the titles you buy. If you cannot get into games like Mass Effect etc, then don't buy these sort of games in the future.

Oh and game trailers and demos such as MGS4, sure they give you a glimpse of the game, but they are not the game. I may like a demo, it's designed to sell, that is its primary function. However, we may be disappointed when we play the finished product as the demo only shows us a glimpse of the real deal. I doubt the demo of MGS4 for example has you wait an hour and a half before you actually start interacting with the story. (I wont call it a game as I thing MGS games are over rated Don BLuth style interactive stories that are essentially one mans fantasy and poor excuses for "GAMES".)

I think Garfield it sounds like you are a little guilty of picking up the wrong sort of games for you. Oblivion aint your game and neither is Final Fantasy. You renjoyed Fallout 3 probably because it is actiony and shooty, and you can be as involved as you like in the story. I think you do need to give some games more of a go though. Why bother buying Forza for example if you are not going to tool up some of your cars, knowing that that is a big part of the game in the first place? I think perhaps you need to be more selective with the titles you buy. If you cannot get into games like Mass Effect etc, then don't buy these sort of games in the future.

Oh and game trailers and demos such as MGS4, sure they give you a glimpse of the game, but they are not the game. I may like a demo, it's designed to sell, that is its primary function. However, we may be disappointed when we play the finished product as the demo only shows us a glimpse of the real deal. I doubt the demo of MGS4 for example has you wait an hour and a half before you actually start interacting with the story. (I wont call it a game as I thing MGS games are over rated Don BLuth style interactive stories that are essentially one mans fantasy and poor excuses for "GAMES".)

pai-may

Hold on, did you just call Don Bluth over-rated! :evil:

Secret of Nymh, Titan AE, An American Tail, The Land Before Time and All Dogs Go To Heaven - I think I don't need to continue with this list of mine.

Also, I agree with you. However I try to play games that I'm not normally into anyway, it otherwise makes me feel like I'm missing out on some of the better games available. Regardless, games like Mass Effect and Oblivion grow on you rather than become instant addictions, it is the same case with any RPG or Adventure style game.

I think Garfield it sounds like you are a little guilty of picking up the wrong sort of games for you. Oblivion aint your game and neither is Final Fantasy. You renjoyed Fallout 3 probably because it is actiony and shooty, and you can be as involved as you like in the story. I think you do need to give some games more of a go though. Why bother buying Forza for example if you are not going to tool up some of your cars, knowing that that is a big part of the game in the first place? I think perhaps you need to be more selective with the titles you buy. If you cannot get into games like Mass Effect etc, then don't buy these sort of games in the future.

Oh and game trailers and demos such as MGS4, sure they give you a glimpse of the game, but they are not the game. I may like a demo, it's designed to sell, that is its primary function. However, we may be disappointed when we play the finished product as the demo only shows us a glimpse of the real deal. I doubt the demo of MGS4 for example has you wait an hour and a half before you actually start interacting with the story. (I wont call it a game as I thing MGS games are over rated Don BLuth style interactive stories that are essentially one mans fantasy and poor excuses for "GAMES".)

pai-may

Maybe, I am spending far more time on the Playstation as there are games I can do on it. I do admit to picking up fairly bad games for my own tastes but I alson wont say no RPGS or long games are for me. Football Manager never ends and I loved it, Final Fantasy 8 I got to disk 3 of 4 on as I loved it. I just need to give more time to my games and thats the plan on the Playstation, I am going to probably spend a lot less time on the XBox as I really cant be bothered having to go through all the games I have on it completing them.

Maybe the whole tuning thing to you is key in Forza but its a racing game to me, I do buy parts for them and upgrade them and spend a little time painting them but I dont need to spend hours on a cars paint work or tunning to enjoy the game.

[QUOTE="pai-may"]

I think Garfield it sounds like you are a little guilty of picking up the wrong sort of games for you. Oblivion aint your game and neither is Final Fantasy. You renjoyed Fallout 3 probably because it is actiony and shooty, and you can be as involved as you like in the story. I think you do need to give some games more of a go though. Why bother buying Forza for example if you are not going to tool up some of your cars, knowing that that is a big part of the game in the first place? I think perhaps you need to be more selective with the titles you buy. If you cannot get into games like Mass Effect etc, then don't buy these sort of games in the future.

Oh and game trailers and demos such as MGS4, sure they give you a glimpse of the game, but they are not the game. I may like a demo, it's designed to sell, that is its primary function. However, we may be disappointed when we play the finished product as the demo only shows us a glimpse of the real deal. I doubt the demo of MGS4 for example has you wait an hour and a half before you actually start interacting with the story. (I wont call it a game as I thing MGS games are over rated Don BLuth style interactive stories that are essentially one mans fantasy and poor excuses for "GAMES".)

Garfield360UK

Maybe, I am spending far more time on the Playstation as there are games I can do on it. I do admit to picking up fairly bad games for my own tastes but I alson wont say no RPGS or long games are for me. Football Manager never ends and I loved it, Final Fantasy 8 I got to disk 3 of 4 on as I loved it. I just need to give more time to my games and thats the plan on the Playstation, I am going to probably spend a lot less time on the XBox as I really cant be bothered having to go through all the games I have on it completing them.

Maybe the whole tuning thing to you is key in Forza but its a racing game to me, I do buy parts for them and upgrade them and spend a little time painting them but I dont need to spend hours on a cars paint work or tunning to enjoy the game.

Loopy, I refer to Dragon's Lair and Space Ace which were unplayable toss.

I am probably being unfair Paul, I would say GRID/Formula One/TOCA are more my racing game type as I prefer to race cars with sponsorship hoardings around populated race circuits. I know Forza offers this but I like real sports events where I can race against AI forms of real drivers, due to my dislike of Ferrari mainly.Garfield360UK

Ha, sure i like those games as well  but I like racing on-line with a car of my own making also. I also have a dislike of Ferrari, though it comes from F1 rather than the look of their sports cars.