Separation of Church and State - What is the limit?

Here is a list of questions regarding the separation of church and state. I posted this here to see whether or not atheists are as hateful, or at least intolerant, of religion as they appear to be.

I realize that this is specific to the U.S. primarily, but if there are issues relating to the concept occuring in other countries, feel free to post it.

Should "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

Should creationism be taught in public schools? If so, what subject should it fall under?

Should marriage be defined by religion and not by the government?

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

Should public schools endorse or allow prayer?

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My answers:

No. God has little to do with religion.

Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

Should creationism be taught in public schools? If so, what subject should it fall under?

Yes. Philosophy and religion classes.

Should marriage be defined by religion and not by the government?

Yes.

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

Not necessarily, but there is no problem with selecting officials based on religion, in my opinion.

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

Most likely. Jefferson was a deist and didn't seem to be a friend of organized religion. The use of "freedom of religion" branched off of his case for the separation of church and state, and I think its intent did include "freedom from religion", but I can see how this could be misconstrued so the government can advocate religion in general. They're only prohibited from endorsing one specific religion, if I understand it correctly.

Should public schools endorse or allow prayer?

I think it's fine for them to endorse prayer or at least any religious practice, but not in a sense that excludes others. Obviously, they should allow prayer so as long as the student isn't using religion as an excuse to not pay attention to the teacher while he or she is speaking or some other misbehavior.

Should "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

Doesn't have to be a religious God, like you said. Could be pantheist view, any view.

Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

For some one who doesn't beleive in God, the shouldn't have to say it.

Should creationism be taught in public schools? If so, what subject should it fall under?

No, it should not be taught. And if it is, give it only a minor saying. Teach children the actual religion, what is about, the history behind it, the people who shaped it, what the theology behind the religion is. Not the most anti-science beleif out there.

Should marriage be defined by religion and not by the government?

It should be up to the people to choose. I personally think marriage is a contract between two people, with or without the presence of God involved.

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

No.

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

I don't understand this sorry.

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

I don't understand this sorry.

123625

Because atheism is generally not thought of as a religion, atheists often advocate the phrase "freedom of religion includes freedom from religion" to indicate that the government cannot endorse religion whatsoever, even if it isn't a specific religion.

Should "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

I will keep the first two together since I see them largely the same.  I have argued in college classes before for keeping these two phrases as a matter of culture and history dispite my being an atheist.  Upon learning that  In God We Trust (accepted motto in 1956 and placed on the dollar in 1957) and Under God (added to the pledge in 1954) were recent additions to americana as a deliberate effort to spread christianity, I have changed my position.  Since learning this, I see these phrases as an attempt to currupt history and ignore founding principles.  

Should creationism be taught in public schools? If so, what subject should it fall under?

I don't really know what of value there is to teach.  Perhaps teach different creation myths in a comparative religion class but it doesn't belong anywhere near a science classroom.

Should marriage be defined by religion and not by the government?

No.

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

No, but I don't think we have that choice, the propaganda machine is strong in the US and there are just too many people that vote based on religion.  See gallup polls for actual numbers.

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

Absolutely, I think that was the intention.  Many of the founding fathers were diest with possible atheist leanings.  I don't think one could have freedom of religion without freedom from anothers.  I looked this up just a little while ago but felt it was wasted in the off topic section and others may like it here.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.  Article 11 states:  As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion....

Should "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

Nah it's not really a big deal.

Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

*googles pledge of allegiance*

Nope. Although reciting it should not be mandatory if people don't want to.

Should creationism be taught in public schools? If so, what subject should it fall under?

The type of creationism which just craps over evolutionary theory with ridiculous and often irrelevant arguments should be shunned in any type of school. Creationism which concentrates on the study of creation stories in culture and holy texts is fine though in theology, history and mythology.

Should marriage be defined by religion and not by the government?

Well I think there's really two parts to this equation, marriage and unionship. Unionship is certainly something that should be available to anyone and as such should be defined by the government. The confusing part is that marriage is so ingrained with the societally accepted form of unionship that taking it away seems equivalent to taking away a fundamental right. If marriage is to be defined by religion then it must be understood as a spiritual ceremony rather than something legally binding.

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

Nope. A position ought to be for the person with the according ability not belief.

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

Does freedom of religion mean you get to choose whatever religion you want while freedom from religion means you get to choose if you want religion at all?

If so then yes, absolutely. I can't imagine the land of the free saying that everyone has to be a theist.

If marriage is to be defined by religion then it must be understood as a spiritual ceremony rather than something legally binding.

domatron23

Damn good point.  I plan to steal this from you and add it to my repertoire of arguments.

[QUOTE="123625"]

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

I don't understand this sorry.

Genetic_Code

Because atheism is generally not thought of as a religion, atheists often advocate the phrase "freedom of religion includes freedom from religion" to indicate that the government cannot endorse religion whatsoever, even if it isn't a specific religion.

In that case I'm fully for the phrase, the last thing I want is a biased goverment.

Should "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

I suppose so, although I don't really mind.

Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

Yup.

Should creationism be taught in public schools? If so, what subject should it fall under?

EDIT: I changed no mind. No, full stop. :x

Should marriage be defined by religion and not by the government?

No, because the concept of marriage is not intrinsically religious.

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

No.

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

Of course.

Should "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

No, they can keep it on the money, so long as they don't try to use that as an example of why we are a Christian nation.

Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

No, but considering the fact that that section was not even added until the Cold War, saying those words should not ever be cumpulsory.

Should creationism be taught in public schools? If so, what subject should it fall under?

It can be taught in schools as long as it's not presented as science. Mythology, folklore, or philosphy would be more appropriate subject headings.

Should marriage be defined by religion and not by the government?

Absolutely not. If it's to have legal recognition, then it needs to be defined by the government.

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

Choosing an official based on religion is an irresponsible way to vote, as one's religious affiliation has nothing to do with their ability to lead (although it may affect some of the decisions they make depending on how deeply they hold those beliefs and are willing to be guided by them), but ultimately that decision is up to the voter. Heck, if the voter wants, he/she can make all voting decisions based on candidates' fashion sense.

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

Yes, a person should have the right to practice his or her own religion, but by the same token, should not have to have others' beliefs forced upon them.

Should "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

By all means, yes. "In God We Trust" was added in the 50s by Eisenhower. That's the 1950s.

Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

Same as above, it was added in the 50s.

Should creationism be taught in public schools? If so, what subject should it fall under?

Only if it's in a class about Religion. ONLY.

Should marriage be defined by religion and not by the government?

In a Religious Marriage? Yes. In a Civil Marriage/Union? No.

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

NO.

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

Yes.

I forgot a question.

Should public schools endorse or allow prayer?

I think it's fine for them to endorse prayer or at least any religious practice, but not in a sense that excludes others. Obviously, they should allow prayer so as long as the student isn't using religion as an excuse to not pay attention to the teacher while he or she is speaking or some other misbehavior.

Oh, and if anyone wants to debate or remedy other people's points, feel free to do so. I just viewed this as an open survey.

^Yes, the schools should allow prayer.

I am not from the US...

Should "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

>>>Doesn't seem like it has much of an impact on any thing.(undecided)

Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

>>>To an atheist it wouldn't mean any thing and to a theist it might.(undecided)

Should creationism be taught in public schools? If so, what subject should it fall under?

>>>Yes it should be taught because they need to know what this thing is the priests are talking about. But the students shouldn't be led to believe that it's scientific and that it can challenge science. They have to understand that science is an open road and it may lead to anything whereas creationism is the study that tries to establish links between scriptures and science, and in some cases reinterpret scientific datas and scriptures to form the link.

Should marriage be defined by religion and not by the government?

>>>Marriage is about two people embracing each other as a part of the individuals' respective family. Religion or god is not necessary in forming a bond between two people. Also marriage doesn't lose it's integrity and purpose in the absence of religion. That's why I think marriage should be defined by the government and definitely not by religion.

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

>>>No. But if there are evidences to suggest the person has let religious or atheistic beliefs to get in the way of decision making, knowing that it might have negative effects on people or may provide special privilege to some, the person deserves skepticism.

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

>>>It definitely should because if not it would be like saying: sure, you can convert to christianity from islam but you can't become an atheist.:|FTW!

Should public schools endorse or allow prayer?

>>>They should allow prayer for all religions but endorsement sounds like special treatment to me.

For Genetic's new question.

It should be allowed, the kids should be allowed to pray to themselves. But it should never be forced or endorsed.

Edit: That was an embarassing spelling error, I was thinking how endorsed rhymed with forced. :[

For Genetic's new question.

It should be allowed, the kids should be allowed to pray to themselves. But it should never be forced or endorced.

TenP

Here is a list of questions regarding the separation of church and state. I posted this here to see whether or not atheists are as hateful, or at least intolerant, of religion as they appear to be.

I realize that this is specific to the U.S. primarily, but if there are issues relating to the concept occuring in other countries, feel free to post it.

Should "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

 Doesn't bother me.

Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

Again doesn't bother me, let's just remember why it's there, Eisenhower put it there to make us different and God loving against the Soviets.

Should creationism be taught in public schools? If so, what subject should it fall under?

NO.  Put your kids in private school, or go to church.  I am very, very much against this one.

Should marriage be defined by religion and not by the government?

No.  It's a government based contract, and churches just get to use it as they always have. 

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

Not at all.  Atheist, Muslim, Buddist, Mormon, whoever can do the best job.

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

In some cases, in others it's so much ingrained into daily life it would be nearly impossible to take it out.

Should public schools endorse or allow prayer?

 Allow religious groups, and moments of silence in the morning.  Without urging one way or the other from teachers.

It seems The Atheist Union and The Christian Witness Union have developed an odd way of talking to each other without actually acknowledging it.  I personally see no need for the smoke a mirrors so I will just address BlackRegiment directly.  In your thread where you partially quoted me in this thread (leaving out the reasoning and historical documentation for my statement) you posted an article by Chuck Norris trying to paint Jefferson as a friend of religion.  I thought you may be interested in some more information about him. 

Are you aware that he wrote another version of the bible that takes out all the supernatural chicanery and is just meant as a source of philosophy?  http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

Here are some other of his quotes about religion and many specifically directed at christianity:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816

My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest. The artificial structures they have built on the purest of all moral systems, for the purpose of deriving from it pence and power, revolts those who think for themselves, and who read in that system only what is really there.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Mrs. Samuel H. Smith, August, 6, 1816

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

Sitri_, the posts you and blackregiment are interesting reads, but I don't think there's a need to argue through each other when you can't approach him directly. From my experiences with WtFDragon, you may have launched into a constant argument that is akin to yelling at a wall.

Blackregiment has posted on this union before and he still retains the freedom to do so. If he wants to address what he considers error in his own union confined to a specific group of people, then so let him be it, and let the record show that he let this error exist here.

I can't stop you obviously, but I'm just giving advice. Make what you will of it.

Peace,
Gene

Sitri_, the posts you and blackregiment are interesting reads, but I don't think there's a need to argue through each other when you can't approach him directly. From my experiences with WtFDragon, you may have launched into a constant argument that is akin to yelling at a wall.

Blackregiment has posted on this union before and he still retains the freedom to do so. If he wants to address what he considers error in his own union confined to a specific group of people, then so let him be it, and let the record show that he let this error exist here.

I can't stop you obviously, but I'm just giving advice. Make what you will of it.

Peace,
Gene

Genetic_Code

No yelling  here.  Just open and honest conversation.  Besides others may find some of this worthwhile.  At a minimum, I am willing to bet most people here like Jefferson quotes.

At a minimum, I am willing to bet most people here like Jefferson quotes.

Sitri_

Indeed. They were most interesting. Kudos.

I enjoyed this Jefferson quote:

"Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."

It may not necessarily be entirely accurate with more religious adherents and particularly Catholics accepting advances in science, but it sure does paint a picture of those static in their faith.

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]

Sitri_, the posts you and blackregiment are interesting reads, but I don't think there's a need to argue through each other when you can't approach him directly. From my experiences with WtFDragon, you may have launched into a constant argument that is akin to yelling at a wall.

Blackregiment has posted on this union before and he still retains the freedom to do so. If he wants to address what he considers error in his own union confined to a specific group of people, then so let him be it, and let the record show that he let this error exist here.

I can't stop you obviously, but I'm just giving advice. Make what you will of it.

Peace,
Gene

Sitri_

No yelling  here.  Just open and honest conversation.  Besides others may find some of this worthwhile.  At a minimum, I am willing to bet most people here like Jefferson quotes.

Should "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

This one's not a huge deal. I would prefer if it were gone because it's an acknowledgement of some diety by a government that's supposed to be agnostic. However, it's also sort of a cultural thing and overall not a big deal since it doesn't really affect anyone, unless there's a crazy atheist out there that feels the need to claw his eyes out whenever he sees something like that.

Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

Probably. I say this because this is a pledge of allegience to the state (that is, the government, not the individual states), a state that's supposed to be separate from religion. If the government is going to have an official pledge, it shouldn't have "God" in it because the government shouldn't endorse any religion over none. For this reason, I say "under the Constitution." The way it it is now kinda says "One nation which follows God." A simple and rather obvious rewording, but kind of a "when you put it that way..." one.

Plus, for this and the above question, those phrases were born out of outdated fear of "godless communism," and we're passed that now.

Should creationism be taught in public schools? If so, what subject should it fall under?

Sure, but ONLY as part of a religious studies elective class that studies the beliefs of all sorts of different religions, not just one.

Should marriage be defined by religion and not by the government?

I think we should have a system like that of France. There, if you only have a religious marriage, it only counts religiously and sentimentally. This is generall where the big celebration takes place. You won't be married legally until you get officially married at the city hall. Generally this is done with only a few close relatives or friends as witnesses and takes place before the main ceremony.

I'm not sure about homosexuals in France, but I believe that the government should not infringe on the rights of the church to not marry homosexuals (no matter how much I disagree with that sentiment). There are churches that will marry gays. However, the legal marriage should, of course, not deny marriage to anyone, straight, gay or even polygamists.

Church and state are truly separate that way. The only problem with that might be some religious activists insisting that the legal marriage be called a civil union and demanding a Proposition 8-type thing for it. It's a marriage and they can deal with it.

 EDIT: To make the first line of the second paragraph clearer, I don't mean to say "I'm not sure what the law concerning French homosexuals should be," but rather "I don't know what the law is in France." Just thought I should say that before someone misinterprets it as something hilariously incorrect.

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

I don't think their beliefs really matter for the most part so long as they're qualified. However, I would have a problem with a creationist official who tries to push his beliefs into a science class and not into the hypothetical religious studies class. Of course, there are going to be voters who vote based on religion, but there's nothing that really can or should be done about that. Again, I don't really care about the religion of an official so long as he's a good politician.

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

If by this you mean that the government should not support religion in general over none at all, absolutely.

Should public schools endorse or allow prayer?

They shouldn't prohibit the students from practicing religion (unless it interferes with the class) and the teachers should never lead it, nor should it ever be a part of the cirriculum. An exception could be the hypothetical religious studies elective. Maybe they could take a couple minutes for each person on their own to pray to whatever diety or not at all. I MIGHT be OK with this since A) it would be a class about religion, B) it would be an elective class, and C) the student would be able to pray to whatever diety and would have the option to not pray at all. I'm not entirely sure about that though since it's taking time out of school to pray. There's the option of doing whatever else, but the primary purpose would be prayer, so I dunno about that.

Genetic_Code

Thankfully I haven't seen him hardly at all in here.  I believe we try to, and do our best to include everyone in this union, and not overrun them or totally bash what they believe.  I also think alot of it is thanks to Felixlynch and the way the union was started and all the new members who have kept the tone intelligent and civil.  But BR is one of only two people on GS I do not wish to see in here, if you cannot state your opinion with your mind, not texts be it the Bible, or God Delusion, and are only in it to argue I see no need for you here.  Sorry for the short off-topic officer rant, carry on the great topic, good job again Gene, and I loved the Jefferson quotes Sitri_.btaylor2404

Oh Funky one, I was only trying to mention a name that had been mentioned.  But if you must it's Chrushmaster.  I don't belittle him becasue of how young he is, but the only answer you will ever get out of him is Bible quotes.btaylor2404

Should "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

Yes. It serves no purpose whatsoever, only to enhance Christians opinion that they are right and alienate everyone else.   

Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

Yes. Same reasoning as above. 

Should creationism be taught in public schools? If so, what subject should it fall under?

Not directly, but I would be for a general class on religion discussing how each came to propagate amongst people and a bit about them. Subject matter should probably be written by an Agnostic so as not to show any special attention to any religion. 

Should marriage be defined by religion and not by the government?

No it should not. As long as it's two humans that have given consent I don't see an issue letting them do their thing, and be eligible for tax benefits/whatever else. 

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

No, they should be chosen on experience, and past performance. 

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

Yes. 

Should public schools endorse or allow prayer?

A public school should never endorse prayer, but it should allow it given it's not ran by the school.  

My highschool had a group prayer deal outside of the highschool, which was fine as well. They weren't bothering anyone inside. 

Should "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

Don't see any reason to do so.

Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

Should perhaps not be compulsory but I don't see a problem with leaving it be.

Should creationism be taught in public schools? If so, what subject should it fall under?

No. Teach what the bible says in religion classes but let the kids interpret it themselves. Philosophy is arguable but I've never had philosophy as a subject in school (not from the US) so can't really comment on that.

Should marriage be defined by religion and not by the government?

Government, or at least make registered partnerships complete legal equivalents.

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

Eh, does this actually happen? Why would a public official have to be of any specific religion?

Does the term "freedom of religion" include "freedom from religion"?

Dunno.

Should public schools endorse or allow prayer?

Allow.

Genetic_Code

Should public officials be chosen based on religion?

Eh, does this actually happen? Why would a public official have to be of any specific religion?

 inoperativeRS

Gallup

That's disgusting. I can see why it could be a problem if someone was married for the third time or 72 years old but the rest are just stupid. Faith in humankind -1.