Ground Zero Mosque

I hope most of you have heard about the Mosque a group of Muslims want to build near Ground Zero. It's a hot button issue that has a lot of politico-types marching, shouting, and prosilatizing about 'MericaTM and FreedomTM. How do yall feel about the Mosque? Should it be built at Ground Zero or not?

Personally, I think it's rather silly that the people who espouse freedom and liberty in one context will turn around and deny those things to Muslims (speaking about the Tea-Party nuts like Palin). The land owners have every legal, and moral, right to build a Mosque on that land (As Eugene Volokh points out nicely). 

A few facts:

• The mosque's chief proponent, Abdul Rauf, went on 60 Minutes saying that the U.S. was an accessory to 9/11.
• The name of Park51 was going to be the Coroboda House which refers to the the Muslim conquest of Spanish Christians in the 8th century.
• Park51 comes at an expected price tag at $100 million and yet the funding hasn't been traced to any source.
• Polls show that 54% of Americans oppose it, compared to 20% in favor.

Pat Condell has an an interesting video on the subject. I don't believe that a mosque should be built on this planet. However, I also believe it is morally necessary for the government to uphold the freedom of religion, and this is no exception. Write to the leaders of the mosque about your concerns, but if they don't listen, don't think you can go through the government to get your way.

Islam shouldnt have freedom of speech, expression etc cuz the very fundamental teachings of Islam are against that very same concept so why should it be given? And not just in theory but the anti-freedom ways of Islam are practiced unshamefully in countries like saudi arabia, iran, afghanistan, pakistan etc.

Islam is a very serious threat to freedom and this issue shouldnt be taken lightly. Oh yes I know there are plenty a moderate muslim who doesnt believe literally in the sharia law or atleast doesnt want it to be froced on others. But if you think that the extremist muslims are just a few rotten apples than you are simply denying!!

Islam needs to be regulated in the western world...

A few facts:

• The mosque's chief proponent, Abdul Rauf, went on 60 Minutes saying that the U.S. was an accessory to 9/11.
• The name of Park51 was going to be the Coroboda House which refers to the the Muslim conquest of Spanish Christians in the 8th century.
• Park51 comes at an expected price tag at $100 million and yet the funding hasn't been traced to any source.
• Polls show that 54% of Americans oppose it, compared to 20% in favor.

Genetic_Code

As Wikipedia would say, [citation needed]

As Wikipedia would say, [citation needed]

GabuEx

The group is headed by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. On Sept. 30, 2001, two weeks after the 9/11 attacks, Fiesal told CBS' "60 Minutes," "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened. But the United States' policies were an accessory to the crime that happened."

"For example, most of them [American elites] don't understand that "Cordoba House" is a deliberately insulting term. It refers to Cordoba, Spain – the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over the Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the world's third-largest mosque complex."

"Rep. Peter King of New York, the senior Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee, and another ally of the mayor's, called for further inquiries into the finances of the proposed Islamic center.

"We must focus our efforts on obtaining a full investigation of the $100 million mosque. Who is giving the money? Where is it coming from?'" said King."

Rasmussen Reports survey shows 54% oppose, 20% favor, while 26% are unsure about Park51.

I found all of these citations through Wikipedia by the way.

I personally think that there are better, more productive buildings that could be built instead of this proposed community center, but I'm not going to lose any sleep at night knowing that there's a mosque a few blocks away from Ground Zero. 

And for those that are interested, Christopher Hitchens has a good article about this that I think puts the controversy in perspective. 

The group is headed by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. On Sept. 30, 2001, two weeks after the 9/11 attacks, Fiesal told CBS' "60 Minutes," "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened. But the United States' policies were an accessory to the crime that happened."

Genetic_Code

Honestly?  He's basically right.  The idea that "they hate us for our freedom" is one of the most mind-numbing things Bush ever said. 

 

"For example, most of them [American elites] don't understand that "Cordoba House" is a deliberately insulting term. It refers to Cordoba, Spain – the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over the Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the world's third-largest mosque complex."

Genetic_Code

A Fox News editorial as a source?  Really?

Everything I can find says that the name was chosen for its significance that Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived there together, not that it was conquered by Muslims.  By all accounts, the city was a major cultural center.

  

"Rep. Peter King of New York, the senior Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee, and another ally of the mayor's, called for further inquiries into the finances of the proposed Islamic center.

"We must focus our efforts on obtaining a full investigation of the $100 million mosque. Who is giving the money? Where is it coming from?'" said King."

Genetic_Code

The fact that a Republican Congressman is putting up a fine bit of political theater is a rather far cry away from the assertion you're using that to support.

So the proverbial "finger" has been raised: Link

I for one am most interested in the reaction from the Muslim community proposing this centre.foxhound_fox

Haha that is awesome. I'd love to see that happen if the mosque does get built.

I don't see what the big deal is. I mean, it's not like it's the only Mosque built in America.

As Muslims we will go there to practice our beliefs, not build missiles and plan terrorist attacks.

Islam shouldnt have freedom of speech, expression etc cuz the very fundamental teachings of Islam are against that very same concept so why should it be given? And not just in theory but the anti-freedom ways of Islam are practiced unshamefully in countries like saudi arabia, iran, afghanistan, pakistan etc.

Islam is a very serious threat to freedom and this issue shouldnt be taken lightly. Oh yes I know there are plenty a moderate muslim who doesnt believe literally in the sharia law or atleast doesnt want it to be froced on others. But if you think that the extremist muslims are just a few rotten apples than you are simply denying!!

Islam needs to be regulated in the western world...

Gambler_3

Whoa slow down there. First you're trying insinuate that Saudia Arabia, Iran, Pakistan etc follow Islamic Shar'iah completely. They mostly don't. Some laws are from Islam, others they have created themselves. 

And yes, I do believe that the extremists are few and far between. It's just that they seem to get the most attention from the media when it comes to issues such as this.

I don't see what the big deal is. I mean, it's not like it's the only Mosque built in America.

As Muslims we will go there to practice our beliefs, not build missiles and plan terrorist attacks.

SpinoRaptor24

Well the pertinent factor here is its proximity to ground zero. What's your opinion on that?

[QUOTE="SpinoRaptor24"]

I don't see what the big deal is. I mean, it's not like it's the only Mosque built in America.

As Muslims we will go there to practice our beliefs, not build missiles and plan terrorist attacks.

domatron23

Well the pertinent factor here is its proximity to ground zero. What's your opinion on that?

You're going to resent it over what a few extremist did? I mean, Americans seem to have no problem marching into Iraq after tearing it to pieces and preaching Christianity there, why shouldn't a Mosque be built near Ground Zero?

In fact, we still don't have solid evidence that it was Muslims who did. According to sources, the Pentagon is so well guarded that not even a bird can fly over it, yet they somehow failed to spot a Boeing 707 heading towards it?

[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="SpinoRaptor24"]

I don't see what the big deal is. I mean, it's not like it's the only Mosque built in America.

As Muslims we will go there to practice our beliefs, not build missiles and plan terrorist attacks.

SpinoRaptor24

Well the pertinent factor here is its proximity to ground zero. What's your opinion on that?

You're going to resent it over what a few extremist did?

I should just quickly point out that I'm not an American, I'm from New Zealand. I don't have any personal resentment against Muslims for 9/11 but I understand that bringing up Islam in relation to the attacks on the twin towers is a very touchy issue for Americans due to the underlying subject of terrorism that links the two together.

My distaste comes about because building a mosque near ground zero only serves to inflame that touchiness. The people planning it know that but they are pushing ahead anyway, hence my opposition to it.

I mean, Americans seem to have no problem marching into Iraq after tearing it to pieces and preaching Christianity there, why shouldn't a Mosque be built near Ground Zero?SpinoRaptor24

I'm certainly not a proponent of militaristic evangelism either. Devastating someone's country and then marching in your religious institution is just a bad idea no matter who does it. If you think that the Americans are acting improperly in this respect why would you think the same about the people building the mosque?

In fact, we still don't have solid evidence that it was Muslims who did. According to sources, the Pentagon is so well guarded that not even a bird can fly over it, yet they somehow failed to spot a Boeing 707 heading towards it?

SpinoRaptor24

At this point I'm going to have to admit that I am very ignorant on the issue of who was responsible for what. I just flat out haven't done the research so I'm not going to make any strong claims here. I'm very wary of the sort of conspiracy theory that paints the attack on the pentagon as self-inflicted though.

Nevertheless I was reading ghoklebutter's blog on this subject recently and I thought he made a good point. He said that even if people are wrong and irrational to blame the 9/11 attacks on Islam their reactions to the mosque must nevertheless be considered. Basically because there's such a negative emotional link between Islam and the 9/11 attacks the mosque is a bad idea.

Well I think if they just get along with it and build the public attention will go away after awhile and all will be as usual. It's just the media spreading the information that results in such flaming over the issue. I bet plenty of people will forget that it is even there.

I don't think it's proximity to ground zero matters at all. (Personally, 9/11 doesn't mean much to me) The mosque is ironic at best, but only slightly so. There is nothing against it legally. NYC is a large and diverse town that needs facilities for ALL its people.

[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="SpinoRaptor24"]

I don't see what the big deal is. I mean, it's not like it's the only Mosque built in America.

As Muslims we will go there to practice our beliefs, not build missiles and plan terrorist attacks.

SpinoRaptor24

Well the pertinent factor here is its proximity to ground zero. What's your opinion on that?

You're going to resent it over what a few extremist did? I mean, Americans seem to have no problem marching into Iraq after tearing it to pieces and preaching Christianity there, why shouldn't a Mosque be built near Ground Zero?

In fact, we still don't have solid evidence that it was Muslims who did. According to sources, the Pentagon is so well guarded that not even a bird can fly over it, yet they somehow failed to spot a Boeing 707 heading towards it?

I agree that only a handful of extremists were  responsible, and that most Muslims had nothing to do with those attacks. People shouldn't think otherwise, but they do. That's why I believe constructing this mosque, however good the intention is, will not bode well with people irrationally blaming Islam for 9/11. I think some people have even threatened to blow up the mosque once it is constructed. Muslims need not create unecessary conflict, otherwise they aren't going to convince those very same people that Islam "means peace".

Would it really hurt if it was built at a different location? 

[QUOTE="SpinoRaptor24"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="SpinoRaptor24"]

I don't see what the big deal is. I mean, it's not like it's the only Mosque built in America.

As Muslims we will go there to practice our beliefs, not build missiles and plan terrorist attacks.

ghoklebutter

Well the pertinent factor here is its proximity to ground zero. What's your opinion on that?

You're going to resent it over what a few extremist did? I mean, Americans seem to have no problem marching into Iraq after tearing it to pieces and preaching Christianity there, why shouldn't a Mosque be built near Ground Zero?

In fact, we still don't have solid evidence that it was Muslims who did. According to sources, the Pentagon is so well guarded that not even a bird can fly over it, yet they somehow failed to spot a Boeing 707 heading towards it?

I agree that only a handful of extremists were  responsible, and that most Muslims had nothing to do with those attacks. People shouldn't think otherwise, but they do. That's why I believe constructing this mosque, however good the intention is, will not bode well with people irrationally blaming Islam for 9/11. I think some people have even threatened to blow up the mosque once it is constructed. Muslims need not create unecessary conflict, otherwise they aren't going to convince those very same people that Islam "means peace".

Would it really hurt if it was built at a different location? 

It probably wouldn't hurt to build it elsewhere, if they have other land available in the city for use. I am unaware if they do or don't.

This is, obviously, a democratic nation, and if it is true that a large number of people oppose this construction, then it should not take place. My own post was just my personal opinion, in a country like this you have to cater to as many people as possible.

There always comes a point where you must stop catering to idiots, the question is: Is this that point?

I agree with ghoklebutter that it isn't. If it can be built elsewhere then by all means it must be built elsewhere. This one mosque is too small to risk conflict over.

By the way, while we're talking about public opinion, here's a rather interesting poll, or at least a particular piece of the demographic breakdown:

"Do you favor or oppose the building of an Islamic community center and prayer space two blocks from the site of the World Trade Center?"

Bronx - 30% favor, 53% oppose, 16% unsure
Brooklyn - 31% favor, 61% oppose, 9% unsure
Manhattan - 53% favor, 31% oppose, 16% unsure
Queens and Staten Island - 28% favor, 60% oppose, 12% unsure 

It would appear that the people who actually live there are, interestingly enough, the only group not to oppose the building.

After watching some debate on CNN tonight regarding this issue (Anderson Cooper mostly, it passes the time at work), I have only this to say:

Islam didn't attack the World Trade Center. Terrorists did.foxhound_fox

Weren't they Islamic?

Weren't they Islamic?RationalAtheist

Whoa slow down there. First you're trying insinuate that Saudia Arabia, Iran, Pakistan etc follow Islamic Shar'iah completely. They mostly don't. Some laws are from Islam, others they have created themselves. 

SpinoRaptor24

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]Weren't they Islamic?foxhound_fox

If they were Mormons, for example, I can see exactly the same sort of fuss being made about building a temple there too.

What version of any faith isn't corrupt? The danger I see in Islam is the link between the faith and law. Islamic countries are mostly Sharia states and autocracies, with no democracy or ability to change outside of war or revolution. Such beliefs are implicit in the faith. I think such a blinkered climate distorts understanding and fosters hatred that can erupt into martyrdom and savegery, as it frequently does these days. I think Pat Condell's right - how long should you tolerate intolerance?

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]Weren't they Islamic?foxhound_fox

Islamic jihad is one of the most pathetic ideoligies ever concieved off in the history of humanity and everyone connected to it's origins needs to be thourougly critcized. Jihad is part of Islam you cant run away from this, there is no case of a few rotten apples here...