Why Sony's initiative to continue Generations is good for PC and why FC is STUPID for future hardare.

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tgob89

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#1  Edited By tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

FC = Forward Compatibility.

Yes Forward Compatibility is idiotic for anyone looking into buying the NEW hardware. Why? Because all your games will be built around the limitations of the BASE hardware of the weaker and older system.

I've seen people damage controlling for Xbox One X using this mind numbingly counter intuitive argument quoting MS execs. The problem is, what leaps has Xbox one X shown in games with this FC road map over standard XB1?

Other than frame rate and resolution, the answer is NONE! You're still playing...

THIS^

But now in 4k! OMFG where do I drop my $500? Being locked into developing for previous hardware is awesome for NEW more powerful systems right guys?

I've made this point before but I'd like to highlight this fact in a dedicated thread.

New Generations open up the BASE development of games to progress.

*This dude here kind of rambles, but still makes the point crystal clear why generations are needed not only for console progression but for the industry to move forward as a whole.*

It's sad to see short sighted people try to latch on to FC as a GOOD THING because some MS execs desperately wanted to into force Sony into some extended mid-generation hardware war. It's NOT good, and counter intuitive for buying more powerful systems.

#GenerationsMatter

Agree? Disagree? Deflection? Get mad and attack me personally because you're not able to make an argument to logically counter the topic? You decide!

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Pedro

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#2 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 69467 Posts

You have yet to make a valid point against forward compatibility. Fanboy ramble is not a valid point.

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hrt_rulz01

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#3  Edited By hrt_rulz01
Member since 2006 • 22374 Posts

FC/BC seems to work fine for PC, so there's no reason it can't work on consoles.

And realistically, I don't think anyone expects the OG XB1 to be still supported in 10 years time.

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#4 tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

@Pedro said:

You have yet to make a valid point against forward compatibility. Fanboy ramble is not a valid point.

indeed.

The sooner you realize this applies to people like yourself the sooner you'll be able to join a discussion the topic.

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#5 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 69467 Posts

@hrt_rulz01 said:

FC/BC seems to work fine for PC, so there's no reason it can't work on consoles.

And realistically, I don't think anyone expects the OG XB1 to be still supported in 10 years time.

Some people don't want to accept the reality that generations are dead. Generational leaps are a thing of the past. We have reach the point in hardware development where there is smaller returns with higher processing. The next system from either MS or Sony would not be the greater than the mid gen over its base.

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Pedro

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#6 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 69467 Posts

@tgob89 said:

indeed.

The sooner you realize this applies to people like yourself the sooner you'll be able to join a discussion the topic.

You have not provided anything of substance. Provide something of substance for a discussion. Again fanboy ramble is not.

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GarGx1

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#7 GarGx1
Member since 2011 • 10934 Posts

Games being able to run on weaker and stronger hardware does not limit them. That's what variable settings are for on PC. I know for console only gamers the idea of variable settings is completely foreign and maybe even scary but it can all be completely automated through hardware detection built into the software.

Got a base PS4 then you get setting A (low), a PS4 Pro would use setting B (medium) and a PS5 (High) would get setting C, all of it decided and loaded without ever being seen. Xbox One, Xbox One X and Xbox Next would be no different.

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Ant_17

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#8 Ant_17
Member since 2005 • 13634 Posts

Yeah, i don't see Cyberpunk being on the Bone or BoneX so MS is just lying, or will cripple their 1st party devs.

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#9 tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

@hrt_rulz01 said:

FC/BC seems to work fine for PC, so there's no reason it can't work on consoles.

And realistically, I don't think anyone expects the OG XB1 to be still supported in 10 years time.

1. PC and consoles are not the same.

2. Have you seen what most PC exclusives look like even in 2018 compared to standard PS4 exclusives?

3. Consoles generally DICTATE where the base hardware of PC games are developed from...at least for 3rd party devs.

4. Realistically and logically the OG X1 SHOULDN'T be forward compatible with the X but it is. The problem isn't what's "realistic" its the arguments that some users are presenting which contradicts what should be logical.

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deactivated-5c1d0901c2aec

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#10 deactivated-5c1d0901c2aec
Member since 2016 • 6762 Posts

'Forward Compatibility' is a good thing from my perspective as a PC gamer. It makes hardware and gaming accessibility simpler. It means I don't have to keep my older systems plugged in to enjoy the games I want to play. Additionally, it means I don't need to own an older console to play those games either. That's a nice convenience to have and it works wonders for PC.

Unless the games console in question has a unique selling point or gimmick, then I don't really see why trying forward compatibility isn't an intriguing option.

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tgob89

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#11 tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

@GarGx1 said:

Games being able to run on weaker and stronger hardware does not limit them. That's what variable settings are for on PC. I know for console only gamers the idea of variable settings is completely foreign ....

FALSE!

if the game has to be designed to run on a significantly weaker system, the entire development process is affected.

Acting like console gamers have no idea of variable settings is arrogant to the point of being out of touch with reality. Many console owners own PC, that doesn't change anything I've argued here. Different settings have nothing to do with the base development process of creating a game.

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#12 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 69467 Posts

@Ant_17 said:

Yeah, i don't see Cyberpunk being on the Bone or BoneX so MS is just lying, or will cripple their 1st party devs.

Seems like the developers disagree with you.

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#13  Edited By Ant_17
Member since 2005 • 13634 Posts

@Pedro said:
@Ant_17 said:

Yeah, i don't see Cyberpunk being on the Bone or BoneX so MS is just lying, or will cripple their 1st party devs.

Seems like the developers disagree with you.

So it's not next gen.

But they did say Witcher 3 on PS3 and 360 would be a waste to make.

https://www.gamesradar.com/stop-it-cross-gen-games-are-holding-industry-back/

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tgob89

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#14 tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

@Ant_17 said:

Yeah, i don't see Cyberpunk being on the Bone or BoneX so MS is just lying, or will cripple their 1st party devs.

I'm not hyped over a game that they haven't even given us the opportunity to see. Also, Cyberpunk will be a PS4/Xbox game...perhaps only Pro or X but it will be cross gen no less.

Too many game sales right now to go full Next gen straight out the gate. That said, The base versions are going to be significantly inferior considering CDPR have officially said they are creating in tandem with next gen consoles.

I wouldn't be surprised if they cut the OG xbox one all together however.

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#15 Ant_17
Member since 2005 • 13634 Posts

@tgob89 said:
@Ant_17 said:

Yeah, i don't see Cyberpunk being on the Bone or BoneX so MS is just lying, or will cripple their 1st party devs.

I'm not hyped over a game that they haven't even given us the opportunity to see. Also, Cyberpunk will be a PS4/Xbox game...perhaps only Pro or X but it will be cross gen no less.

Too many game sales right now to go full Next gen straight out the gate. That said, The base versions are going to be significantly inferior considering CDPR have officially said they are creating in tandem with next gen consoles.

I wouldn't be surprised if they cut the OG xbox one all together however.

It explains why the game will be FPS. Can't render the world and a character at the same time. But they won't cut the Bone, at least i don't think they will, since they can't cut the base PS4.

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#16 tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts
@Ant_17 said:
@Pedro said:
@Ant_17 said:

Yeah, i don't see Cyberpunk being on the Bone or BoneX so MS is just lying, or will cripple their 1st party devs.

Seems like the developers disagree with you.

So it's not next gen.

But they did say Witcher 3 on PS3 and 360 would be a waste to make.

https://www.gamesradar.com/stop-it-cross-gen-games-are-holding-industry-back/

LMAO, that comment coming by CDPR, the dev whose game most of the users who are arguing against me are looking forward to the most...

"Stop it! Cross-gen games are holding the industry back"

...is a kick in the nuts!

Even the developers for your favorite upcoming game understand the simple logic I've presented here in my thread.

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Archangel3371

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#17 Archangel3371  Online
Member since 2004 • 44163 Posts

Meh. PC seems to do just fine in this department of variable hardware configurations so I don’t see this really being an issue with consoles.

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#18  Edited By tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

@Archangel3371 said:

Meh. PC seems to do just fine in this department of variable hardware configurations so I don’t see this really being an issue with consoles.

copy and pasted from previous response.

1. PC and consoles are not the same.

2. Have you seen what most PC exclusives look like even in 2018 compared to standard PS4 exclusives?

3. Consoles generally DICTATE where the base hardware of PC games are developed from...at least for 3rd party devs.

One additional point...

4. 3rd party games are where the advantages of more powerful PC's can be seen...and 3rd party games are dictated by the base hardware of the leading console on the market.****

I already addressed this counter point and it's not a good one

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Pedro

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#19 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 69467 Posts
@Ant_17 said:
@Pedro said:
@Ant_17 said:

Yeah, i don't see Cyberpunk being on the Bone or BoneX so MS is just lying, or will cripple their 1st party devs.

Seems like the developers disagree with you.

So it's not next gen.

But they did say Witcher 3 on PS3 and 360 would be a waste to make.

https://www.gamesradar.com/stop-it-cross-gen-games-are-holding-industry-back/

What they said about the Witcher 3 is irrelevant because you were stating that its not coming to the Xbox One and Xbox One X which you were wrong.

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#20  Edited By GarGx1
Member since 2011 • 10934 Posts
@tgob89 said:

FALSE!

if the game has to be designed to run on a significantly weaker system, the entire development process is affected.

Acting like console gamers have no idea of variable settings is arrogant to the point of being out of touch with reality. Many console owners own PC, that doesn't change anything I've argued here. Different settings have nothing to do with the base development process of creating a game.

Yes a game needs to have the settings for the weaker hardware but that doesn't limit the maximum level of the hardware it can run. If that were the case then anything that runs on a GTX 1050 would not be maxing out a GTX 1080Ti but yet we see plenty of games that can be run on low end hardware but still push high end GPU's to their limits.

PC doesn't have any issues holding "graphics king" titles, regardless of what the PS4 gets or the minimum specs that a game can be run on. Whether a game is exclusive or not is completely irrelevant.

I take you noticed I said Console only gamers, meaning your off on a pointless tangent and only seeing what you want to.

You do realise that your last sentence completely negates your entire thread? If different settings have nothing to do with the base development process, why are you worrying about backward hardware compatibility in games?

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#21 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58305 Posts

@hrt_rulz01 said:

FC/BC seems to work fine for PC, so there's no reason it can't work on consoles.

And realistically, I don't think anyone expects the OG XB1 to be still supported in 10 years time.

This is why, if on a budget, it's never necessary to get anything better than the equivelent of what a console can do when buying/building a PC. A lot (most?) games are multiplatform, the engines will generally be scaled down to consoles. Most PC hardware is leagues faster or more capable than what's on console, so no need to go crazy.

Backwards compatibility would be nice. On PC you have almost infinite hardware variations, yet we have infinite (almost) backwards compatability. On console, you have finite variations, yet BC seems to be an issue. Why can't you play original Xbox or Playstation games on Xbox One or PS4?

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#22 Archangel3371  Online
Member since 2004 • 44163 Posts

@tgob89: Yep, I already seen that previous response you gave. I still don’t really see how this will really be an issue with consoles.

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#24  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 69467 Posts

@tgob89 said:

LMAO, that comment coming by CDPR, the dev whose game most of the users who are arguing against me are looking forward to the most...

"Stop it! Cross-gen games are holding the industry back"

...is a kick in the nuts!

Even the developers for your favorite upcoming game understand the simple logic I've presented here in my thread.

The next iteration of consoles would not be able to match the jump of mid gen far less the jump of traditional generations. Yet you believe to the contrary. That belief is simply false. No matter how you try to spin it.

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#25 hrt_rulz01
Member since 2006 • 22374 Posts

@Pedro said:
@hrt_rulz01 said:

FC/BC seems to work fine for PC, so there's no reason it can't work on consoles.

And realistically, I don't think anyone expects the OG XB1 to be still supported in 10 years time.

Some people don't want to accept the reality that generations are dead. Generational leaps are a thing of the past. We have reach the point in hardware development where there is smaller returns with higher processing. The next system from either MS or Sony would not be the greater than the mid gen over its base.

Exactly.

@Ant_17 said:

Yeah, i don't see Cyberpunk being on the Bone or BoneX so MS is just lying, or will cripple their 1st party devs.

You don't think Cyberpunk will be on the XB1 X? Seriously? Lol.

Maybe you should check the official Cyberpunk website and this tweet:

Tweet

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#26 tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

@Pedro said:
@Ant_17 said:
@Pedro said:
@Ant_17 said:

Yeah, i don't see Cyberpunk being on the Bone or BoneX so MS is just lying, or will cripple their 1st party devs.

Seems like the developers disagree with you.

So it's not next gen.

But they did say Witcher 3 on PS3 and 360 would be a waste to make.

https://www.gamesradar.com/stop-it-cross-gen-games-are-holding-industry-back/

What they said about the Witcher 3 is irrelevant because you were stating that its not coming to the Xbox One and Xbox One X which you were wrong.

Him being wrong about Cyberpunk 2077 doesn't negate CDPR's thoughts on the matter of current gen and next gen

"many developers like to hedge their bets, turning to cross-generation development as a response. It's safe, it's profitable… and it's kneecapping industry advancement. If gamers really want to experience next-gen quality and avoid stewing in stagnant last-gen waters, it's time to cut cross-gen releases loose.

Of course, making games for multiple console generations is smart during a launch window. In the frightening no man's land that surrounds a system’s birth, cross-gen releases are a boon, letting early adopters see what their new toy can do without leaving the established fanbase in the dust. The setup is equally attractive to developers, since it gives them the freedom to build for new consoles without sacrificing last-gen profits. However, if that goes on too long..."

. Nice try though.

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#27 Ant_17
Member since 2005 • 13634 Posts

@Pedro said:
@Ant_17 said:
@Pedro said:
@Ant_17 said:

Yeah, i don't see Cyberpunk being on the Bone or BoneX so MS is just lying, or will cripple their 1st party devs.

Seems like the developers disagree with you.

So it's not next gen.

But they did say Witcher 3 on PS3 and 360 would be a waste to make.

https://www.gamesradar.com/stop-it-cross-gen-games-are-holding-industry-back/

What they said about the Witcher 3 is irrelevant because you were stating that its not coming to the Xbox One and Xbox One X which you were wrong.

So i was wrong, big deal.

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#28  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 69467 Posts

@GarGx1 said:

Yes a game needs to have the settings for the weaker hardware but that doesn't limit the maximum level of the hardware it can run. If that were the case then anything that runs on a GTX 1050 would not be maxing out a GTX 1080Ti but yet we see plenty of games that can be run on low end hardware but still push high end GPU's to their limits.

PC doesn't have any issues holding "graphics king" titles, regardless of what the PS4 gets or the minimum specs that a game can be run on. Whether a game is exclusive or not is completely irrelevant.

I take you noticed I said Console only gamers, meaning your off on a pointless tangent and only seeing what you want to.

You do realise that your last sentence completely negates your entire thread? If different settings have nothing to do with the base development process, why are you worrying about backward hardware compatibility in games?

He/she doesn't know what they are talking about.

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tgob89

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#29 tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

@GarGx1 said:

Yes a game needs to have the settings for the weaker hardware but that doesn't limit the maximum level of the hardware it can run. If that were the case then anything that runs on a GTX 1050 would not be maxing out a GTX 1080Ti but yet we see plenty of games that can be run on low end hardware but still push high end GPU's to their limits.

PC doesn't have any issues holding "graphics king" titles, regardless of what the PS4 gets or the minimum specs that a game can be run on. Whether a game is exclusive or not is completely irrelevant.

I take you noticed I said Console only gamers, meaning *your off on a pointless tangent and only seeing what you want to.*

You do realise that your last sentence completely negates your entire thread? If different settings have nothing to do with the base development process, why are you worrying about backward hardware compatibility in games?

Psst, this is from CDPR...a PC developer you worship...

"many developers like to hedge their bets, turning to cross-generation development as a response. It's safe, it's profitable… and it's kneecapping industry advancement. If gamers really want to experience next-gen quality and avoid stewing in stagnant last-gen waters, it's time to cut cross-gen releases loose.

Of course, making games for multiple console generations is smart during a launch window. In the frightening no man's land that surrounds a system’s birth, cross-gen releases are a boon, letting early adopters see what their new toy can do without leaving the established fanbase in the dust. The setup is equally attractive to developers, since it gives them the freedom to build for new consoles without sacrificing last-gen profits. However, if that goes on too long..."

I guess they are console only gamers too? Nice bonehead argument kiddo.

Also what made you assume I don't know anything about PC gaming? Stop pulling assumptions about me from no man's land bud and stick to what you can know..which still looks to be very little.

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deactivated-5b883bb846c10

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#30 deactivated-5b883bb846c10
Member since 2015 • 1043 Posts

I agree with OP and FC sounds like a PR spin.

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#31  Edited By navyguy21  Online
Member since 2003 • 17426 Posts

So a GTX 780 is holding back current game development?

An I5 3570 is holding back gaming?

Your logic is flawed because developers dont develop games JUST for current generation PC hardware.

If that was the case, PS4 and Xbox would have no games

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tgob89

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#32  Edited By tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

@Pedro said:
@tgob89 said:

LMAO, that comment coming by CDPR, the dev whose game most of the users who are arguing against me are looking forward to the most...

"Stop it! Cross-gen games are holding the industry back"

...is a kick in the nuts!

Even the developers for your favorite upcoming game understand the simple logic I've presented here in my thread.

The next iteration of consoles would not be able to match the jump of mid gen far less the jump of traditional generations. Yet you believe to the contrary. That belief is simply false. No matter how you try to spin it.

LMAO...Thanks for bringing that up. *bold*

That's a great point and leads me to why FC are stupid for more powerful hardware...

Ahem...MID GENs are POINTLESS to the conversation of GENERATIONS because the base development for all the games are all still from the standard day 1 units!!!!

There isn't anything a next gen system has to match up to in terms of capability with a mid-gen system because NOTHING a mid gen system is running was developed to exploit it's power. It's literally no different than a PC gamer running a multiplat at a better resolution with a few additional frames than consoles.

Everything is the damn same with a mid-gen system until the base development of games move to that move powerful system.

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#33 GarGx1
Member since 2011 • 10934 Posts
@tgob89 said:
@GarGx1 said:

Yes a game needs to have the settings for the weaker hardware but that doesn't limit the maximum level of the hardware it can run. If that were the case then anything that runs on a GTX 1050 would not be maxing out a GTX 1080Ti but yet we see plenty of games that can be run on low end hardware but still push high end GPU's to their limits.

PC doesn't have any issues holding "graphics king" titles, regardless of what the PS4 gets or the minimum specs that a game can be run on. Whether a game is exclusive or not is completely irrelevant.

I take you noticed I said Console only gamers, meaning *your off on a pointless tangent and only seeing what you want to.*

You do realise that your last sentence completely negates your entire thread? If different settings have nothing to do with the base development process, why are you worrying about backward hardware compatibility in games?

Psst, this is from CDPR...a PC developer you worship...

"many developers like to hedge their bets, turning to cross-generation development as a response. It's safe, it's profitable… and it's kneecapping industry advancement. If gamers really want to experience next-gen quality and avoid stewing in stagnant last-gen waters, it's time to cut cross-gen releases loose.

Of course, making games for multiple console generations is smart during a launch window. In the frightening no man's land that surrounds a system’s birth, cross-gen releases are a boon, letting early adopters see what their new toy can do without leaving the established fanbase in the dust. The setup is equally attractive to developers, since it gives them the freedom to build for new consoles without sacrificing last-gen profits. However, if that goes on too long..."

I guess they are console only gamers too? Nice bonehead argument kiddo.

Also what made you assume I don't know anything about PC gaming? Stop pulling assumptions about me from no man's land bud and stick to what you can know..which still looks to be very little.

Why score out the majority of my post? I presume it's because you have no answer to it. You know that putting a line through my comments doesn't negate them in anyway and is rather insulting.

I don't worship game developers at all. CD Projekt Red are covering their bases for when Cyberpunk 2077 can't run well on current consoles, it's damage control for when the downgrade argument starts again, ala Witcher 3, nothing more.

I've made no assumptions about you what so ever, you however seem to making plenty about me. Can I suggest you try to keep the discussion civil, after all rule number one of any debate is the moment you start to insult the other party, you lose by default.

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#34 tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

@mrbojangles25 said:
@hrt_rulz01 said:

FC/BC seems to work fine for PC, so there's no reason it can't work on consoles.

And realistically, I don't think anyone expects the OG XB1 to be still supported in 10 years time.

This is why, if on a budget, it's never necessary to get anything better than the equivelent of what a console can do when buying/building a PC. A lot (most?) games are multiplatform, the engines will generally be scaled down to consoles. ..

And weather you realize it or not, this point actually reinforces my argument.

All the additional capability of those far more powerful PCs goes mostly underutilized because the games are going to be developed at the current console standard limits for 97% of the games created.

A new console generations creates a new set point for which developers can begin create games, that alone will cause game development to dramatically change in scope and depth.

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#35 hrt_rulz01
Member since 2006 • 22374 Posts

@GarGx1: It's not surprising that he's resorting to insults... he doesn't like anyone disagreeing with his flawed arguments.

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TryIt

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#36 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

PC sells more games, make more revenue and has more players then consoles.

Why does PC need help?

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tgob89

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#37 tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts
@GarGx1 said:
@tgob89 said:
@GarGx1 said:

Yes a game needs to have the settings for the weaker hardware but that doesn't limit the maximum level of the hardware it can run. If that were the case then anything that runs on a GTX 1050 would not be maxing out a GTX 1080Ti but yet we see plenty of games that can be run on low end hardware but still push high end GPU's to their limits.

PC doesn't have any issues holding "graphics king" titles, regardless of what the PS4 gets or the minimum specs that a game can be run on. Whether a game is exclusive or not is completely irrelevant.

I take you noticed I said Console only gamers, meaning *your off on a pointless tangent and only seeing what you want to.*

You do realise that your last sentence completely negates your entire thread? If different settings have nothing to do with the base development process, why are you worrying about backward hardware compatibility in games?

Psst, this is from CDPR...a PC developer you worship...

"many developers like to hedge their bets, turning to cross-generation development as a response. It's safe, it's profitable… and it's kneecapping industry advancement. If gamers really want to experience next-gen quality and avoid stewing in stagnant last-gen waters, it's time to cut cross-gen releases loose.

Of course, making games for multiple console generations is smart during a launch window. In the frightening no man's land that surrounds a system’s birth, cross-gen releases are a boon, letting early adopters see what their new toy can do without leaving the established fanbase in the dust. The setup is equally attractive to developers, since it gives them the freedom to build for new consoles without sacrificing last-gen profits. However, if that goes on too long..."

I guess they are console only gamers too? Nice bonehead argument kiddo.

Also what made you assume I don't know anything about PC gaming? Stop pulling assumptions about me from no man's land bud and stick to what you can know..which still looks to be very little.

Why score out the majority of my post? I presume it's because you have no answer to it. You know that putting a line through my comments doesn't negate them in anyway and is rather insulting.

I don't worship game developers at all. CD Projekt Red are covering their bases for when Cyberpunk 2077 can't run well on current consoles, it's damage control for when the downgrade argument starts again, ala Witcher 3, nothing more.

I've made no assumptions about you what so ever, you however seem to making plenty about me. Can I suggest you try to keep the discussion civil, after all rule number one of any debate is the moment you start to insult the other party, you lose by default.

The argument is civil, YOU just made dumb assumptions about me on things you don't know about me and tried to make based on those self generated ideas.

Don't blame me fore responding to you false impressions to make an argument where you had none. The argument isn't about "me" or "console gamers" (also a silly and idiotic stance to take trying to generalizing people).

Take your own advise and make good points not dumb fanboy generated meme assumptions.

I addressed the point of your post that showed you're argument stance was flawed. The rest of your post was so completely off and wrong I didn't feel the need to address it but I'll do it in another post if it makes you feel better......

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TryIt

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#38 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts
@tgob89 said:
@mrbojangles25 said:
@hrt_rulz01 said:

FC/BC seems to work fine for PC, so there's no reason it can't work on consoles.

And realistically, I don't think anyone expects the OG XB1 to be still supported in 10 years time.

This is why, if on a budget, it's never necessary to get anything better than the equivelent of what a console can do when buying/building a PC. A lot (most?) games are multiplatform, the engines will generally be scaled down to consoles. ..

And weather you realize it or not, this point actually reinforces my argument.

All the additional capability of those far more powerful PCs goes mostly underutilized because the games are going to be developed at the current console standard limits for 97% of the games created.

A new console generations creates a new set point for which developers can begin create games, that alone will cause game development to dramatically change in scope and depth.

absolutely true for last generation.

in fact, for PC gamers quite a pain point.

But those days are over now. PC has plenty of high end, medium end all end kind of options.

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#40 tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

@GarGx1 said:

Yes a game needs to have the settings for the weaker hardware but that doesn't limit the maximum level of the hardware it can run. If that were the case then anything that runs on a GTX 1050 would not be maxing out a GTX 1080Ti but yet we see plenty of games that can be run on low end hardware but still push high end GPU's to their limits.

PC doesn't have any issues holding "graphics king" titles, regardless of what the PS4 gets or the minimum specs that a game can be run on. Whether a game is exclusive or not is completely irrelevant.

I take you noticed I said Console only gamers, meaning your off on a pointless tangent and only seeing what you want to.

You do realise that your last sentence completely negates your entire thread? If different settings have nothing to do with the base development process, why are you worrying about backward hardware compatibility in games?

1. Yes a game needs to have the settings for the weaker hardware but that doesn't limit the maximum level of the hardware it can run.

So...resolution and frame-rate? uhh yeah already touched on that.

The only advantage more powerful PC hardware has over the base hardware games are developed for are MODS...but If games are actually built to utilize a hardware's proper capability the need for mods become significantly less needed and games will be more optimized over-all.

2. PC doesn't have any issues holding "graphics king" titles, regardless of what the PS4 gets or the minimum specs that a game can be run on. Whether a game is exclusive or not is completely irrelevant.

Loading Video...

And...Horizon Zero Dawn went on to sweep all the industries graphics awards last year even when with them including maxed out multiplats on High end PC...a 2013 1.8TF GPU Console.

Great argument, you're batting 1000 right here...NEXT.

3. You do realise that your last sentence completely negates your entire thread? If different settings have nothing to do with the base development process, why are you worrying about backward hardware compatibility in games?

Reading comprehension 101. Make sure you understand what you're arguing before trying to make a point.

I didn't say anything about backward compatibility this entire thread.

BC =/= FC

How much can that 1080TI do to Tetris to make it more advance than the NES that it was originally developed for? Increased res? Some more colors? Frare rate? Yeah, I stand by my original post.

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#41 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 69467 Posts

@tgob89 said:

2. PC doesn't have any issues holding "graphics king" titles, regardless of what the PS4 gets or the minimum specs that a game can be run on. Whether a game is exclusive or not is completely irrelevant.

And...Horizon Zero Dawn went on to sweep all the industries graphics awards last year even when with them including maxed out multiplats on High end PC...a 2013 1.8TF GPU Console.

Great argument, you're batting 1000 right here...NEXT.

You know what is funny? You undermining your thread and proving us correct and you don't even realize it. Exhibit A and self ownage approved.

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#42 osan0
Member since 2004 • 17814 Posts

this is not a simple topic and comes down to the games being made and what they require (yeah duh i know).

there are 2 sides to this really: the CPU and the GPU. ram is also a factor but, with current systems anyway, i think devs are happy with the ram.

on the GPU side FC can go on for a long long time now. GPUs are not really changing all that much. assuming that the PS5 uses vega for a second (itll probably use navi of course) its not that different from the GPU in the PS4. they both support the same level of DX/openGL/vulkan support (to all intents and purposes. i know sony uses their own low level driver of course and i think vega has a slightly higher level DX12 level support but nothing major.). they can both pull off the same types of effects. the PS5 GPU will just be more efficient, more refined and have a crap load more brute force. but its not a fundamental shift in how GPUs work or anything. to put it another way: any effect a PS4 can do a switch can do to...just not as quickly. strictly speaking for the GPU side: if 3rd parties did support the switch in multiplats it wouldn't hold back the high end for a long time. it wouldn't even hold back the PS5 or X2. compare that to, say, a wii and an xbox 360: the way the GPU worked in the wii was completely different to the 360 and there was stuff the 360 could do that the wii simply couldnt do even if you threw all the wiis resources at the problem.

on the CPU side things are trickier as we don't actually know what devs would do with more CPU power at their disposal. AC unity, for example, was built under the assumption that the CPUs in the current consoles would be a bigger leap over their predecessors. they werent and the games performance suffered due to large crowds and other complicated simulations. these were scaled back for syndicate.

but the underlying simulation side of a game can be harder to cut. its not like reducing a texture size or turning an effect off; tinkering with the simulation can have a profound effect on what the game is. there is some low hanging fruit that can reduce the burden like reducing the number of characters on the screen, simplifying animations for characters in the distance, reducing the world geometry, having generally fewer objects on the screen to send to the GPU (remember the CPU is also involved in the graphics process.). but what about slowing down the physics simulation? or maybe a dev has an idea that requires the CPU to keep track of huge amount of data in the background (shadow of mordor on the 360/PS3, as far as i remember, was cut back mainly due to CPU and ram limits. the nemesis system was axed.).

e.g. last gen the wii couldnt run the underlying logic for climbing buildings in the creed games. the CPU wasnt good enough to do that AND simulate the AI and do its share of the rendering and have the number of characters in screen needed to make other systems in the game work and so on. thats a fundamental part of the creed games. they could work around it of course but then it becomes a different game (probably more like POP). even if the wii had a powerful GPU and loads of ram: CPU wasn't good enough. creed was out the window.

there is an argument that one of the issues this gen is that we are essentially playing prettier versions of last gen games. nothing has really been massively enhanced (except the nemesis system in LOTR :P). if you set aside the graphics, there isnt that much being made for a PS4 that couldnt run well on a PS3 for example. however there were games made for the PS3/360 that just fundamentally wouldnt work on a PS2/GC/xbox. something like oblivion or skyrim, in terms of the underlying simulation, would have to be curtailed a lot. the AI would need to be scaled back. things like the dragon fights would probably be a non runner. remember morrowind was the best the OGxbox could muster (now you could argue that morrowind is the better game and i would agree but the underlying simulation is much simpler.). i mean if you think back you can probably think of tons of games on a 360 that just wouldnt work on an ogxbox on a simulation level. either something would need to be really cut back or it would need to completely change so that the CPU in the ogxbox could deal with it.

now whether the blame for this is the CPU or the cost of development is debatable (im leaning more on the cost of development side myself if we are to assert that the argument is true) but there does come a point where cutting back the underlying simulation of a game designed to run on, say, an 16 core/32 thread ryzen CPU (not that the PS5/X2 will have that) so itll run on the jaguar cores of the PS4/X1 will have a very profound effect on the game. turning down graphics is far easier that scaling back the underlying logic of a game.

so where do you draw the line on FC with the CPU side? if devs just want to make prettier versions of games we are getting today then the jaguar cores are probably going to be able to get he job done for years to come. but what would they like to do with more CPU power available?

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#43 stereointegrity
Member since 2007 • 12151 Posts

i do see next gen consoles being BC, but i dont see any next gen games being playable on the X or Pro

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#44 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts
@Pedro said:
@tgob89 said:

2. PC doesn't have any issues holding "graphics king" titles, regardless of what the PS4 gets or the minimum specs that a game can be run on. Whether a game is exclusive or not is completely irrelevant.

And...Horizon Zero Dawn went on to sweep all the industries graphics awards last year even when with them including maxed out multiplats on High end PC...a 2013 1.8TF GPU Console.

Great argument, you're batting 1000 right here...NEXT.

You know what is funny? You undermining your thread and proving us correct and you don't even realize it. Exhibit A and self ownage approved.

god I wish people would stop talking about the POS game.

its a crappy game so who cares about its graphics

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#45  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 69467 Posts

@osan0 said:

this is not a simple topic and comes down to the games being made and what they require (yeah duh i know).

there are 2 sides to this really: the CPU and the GPU. ram is also a factor but, with current systems anyway, i think devs are happy with the ram.

on the GPU side FC can go on for a long long time now. GPUs are not really changing all that much. assuming that the PS5 uses vega for a second (itll probably use navi of course) its not that different from the GPU in the PS4. they both support the same level of DX/openGL/vulkan support (to all intents and purposes. i know sony uses their own low level driver of course and i think vega has a slightly higher level DX12 level support but nothing major.). they can both pull off the same types of effects. the PS5 GPU will just be more efficient, more refined and have a crap load more brute force. but its not a fundamental shift in how GPUs work or anything. to put it another way: any effect a PS4 can do a switch can do to...just not as quickly. strictly speaking for the GPU side: if 3rd parties did support the switch in multiplats it wouldn't hold back the high end for a long time. it wouldn't even hold back the PS5 or X2. compare that to, say, a wii and an xbox 360: the way the GPU worked in the wii was completely different to the 360 and there was stuff the 360 could do that the wii simply couldnt do even if you threw all the wiis resources at the problem.

on the CPU side things are trickier as we don't actually know what devs would do with more CPU power at their disposal. AC unity, for example, was built under the assumption that the CPUs in the current consoles would be a bigger leap over their predecessors. they werent and the games performance suffered due to large crowds and other complicated simulations. these were scaled back for syndicate.

but the underlying simulation side of a game can be harder to cut. its not like reducing a texture size or turning an effect off; tinkering with the simulation can have a profound effect on what the game is. there is some low hanging fruit that can reduce the burden like reducing the number of characters on the screen, simplifying animations for characters in the distance, reducing the world geometry, having generally fewer objects on the screen to send to the GPU (remember the CPU is also involved in the graphics process.). but what about slowing down the physics simulation? or maybe a dev has an idea that requires the CPU to keep track of huge amount of data in the background (shadow of mordor on the 360/PS3, as far as i remember, was cut back mainly due to CPU and ram limits. the nemesis system was axed.).

e.g. last gen the wii couldnt run the underlying logic for climbing buildings in the creed games. the CPU wasnt good enough to do that AND simulate the AI and do its share of the rendering and have the number of characters in screen needed to make other systems in the game work and so on. thats a fundamental part of the creed games. they could work around it of course but then it becomes a different game (probably more like POP). even if the wii had a powerful GPU and loads of ram: CPU wasn't good enough. creed was out the window.

there is an argument that one of the issues this gen is that we are essentially playing prettier versions of last gen games. nothing has really been massively enhanced (except the nemesis system in LOTR :P). if you set aside the graphics, there isnt that much being made for a PS4 that couldnt run well on a PS3 for example. however there were games made for the PS3/360 that just fundamentally wouldnt work on a PS2/GC/xbox. something like oblivion or skyrim, in terms of the underlying simulation, would have to be curtailed a lot. the AI would need to be scaled back. things like the dragon fights would probably be a non runner. remember morrowind was the best the OGxbox could muster (now you could argue that morrowind is the better game and i would agree but the underlying simulation is much simpler.). i mean if you think back you can probably think of tons of games on a 360 that just wouldnt work on an ogxbox on a simulation level. either something would need to be really cut back or it would need to completely change so that the CPU in the ogxbox could deal with it.

now whether the blame for this is the CPU or the cost of development is debatable (im leaning more on the cost of development side myself if we are to assert that the argument is true) but there does come a point where cutting back the underlying simulation of a game designed to run on, say, an 16 core/32 thread ryzen CPU (not that the PS5/X2 will have that) so itll run on the jaguar cores of the PS4/X1 will have a very profound effect on the game. turning down graphics is far easier that scaling back the underlying logic of a game.

so where do you draw the line on FC with the CPU side? if devs just want to make prettier versions of games we are getting today then the jaguar cores are probably going to be able to get he job done for years to come. but what would they like to do with more CPU power available?

One of the focus at least with Unity 3D is focus on scalable architecture. This "new" system of designing games are to facilitate low end to high end seamlessly by creating code that runs well optimized by default. At the moment many games are less than optimal and there are many areas of improvement with base code to accommodate varying CPU configurations. My anticipation for future games is machine learning built code in which the computer reprogram the code to produce the highest performance code possible. EDIT: In fact the machine learning program for rebuilding code can then rebuild its own code to perform better. This can be iterated until there is no possible optimization left.

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#46 QuadKnight
Member since 2015 • 12916 Posts

FC is a dumb idea of course and I don’t think MS truly believes in it. It’s just some bullshit they cooked up to dupe lems into wasting $500 on a mid-gen console. Phil has already gone on to announce their real next gen console Project Scarlet so that already shows you they don’t give a shit about the Bone. No dev wants to make next gen games and be tied down by the limitations of obsolete hardware.

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#47  Edited By tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

@Pedro said:
@tgob89 said:

2. PC doesn't have any issues holding "graphics king" titles, regardless of what the PS4 gets or the minimum specs that a game can be run on. Whether a game is exclusive or not is completely irrelevant.

And...Horizon Zero Dawn went on to sweep all the industries graphics awards last year even when with them including maxed out multiplats on High end PC...a 2013 1.8TF GPU Console.

Great argument, you're batting 1000 right here...NEXT.

You know what is funny? You undermining your thread and proving us correct and you don't even realize it. Exhibit A and self ownage approved.

Except that didn't happen!

No you aren't too sharp if you think this somehow hurts my point SMDH, let me break it down for you so you can process it in your head.

There is NO way a 1.8TF console can come even close competing with an 11TF 1080TI pared with any reasonable compatible CPU. We can all agree on that I'm sure. So how can a console so weak by comparison even be considered in any graphical debate with a high end PC?

Wait for it....

Because the CURRENT GENERATION of games (3rd party) that are running on those high end PCs were developed based around the limitations of those 1.3 and 1.8TF consoles!!!

This Can't Be Understated!

So of course of a developer specifically maxed out the capability of one of those machines, it's results could rival the best on the market.

A game developed around the hardware level of a 1080TI would melt minds and any current game.

You not being able to think critically enough doesn't damage my point since I fully understand the topic and not simply posting knee jerk reactions out of desperation like you seem to be doing.

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#48 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 44560 Posts

I have no reason to believe console architecture differences between now and next gen won't allow for backward compatibility, don't imagine change will be drastic like between PS3 to PS4 which limited it there. As MS made games backward compatible the more troublesome part of it seems to be getting publisher participation.

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#49  Edited By GarGx1
Member since 2011 • 10934 Posts
@tgob89 said:
@GarGx1 said:

Yes a game needs to have the settings for the weaker hardware but that doesn't limit the maximum level of the hardware it can run. If that were the case then anything that runs on a GTX 1050 would not be maxing out a GTX 1080Ti but yet we see plenty of games that can be run on low end hardware but still push high end GPU's to their limits.

PC doesn't have any issues holding "graphics king" titles, regardless of what the PS4 gets or the minimum specs that a game can be run on. Whether a game is exclusive or not is completely irrelevant.

I take you noticed I said Console only gamers, meaning your off on a pointless tangent and only seeing what you want to.

You do realise that your last sentence completely negates your entire thread? If different settings have nothing to do with the base development process, why are you worrying about backward hardware compatibility in games?

1. Yes a game needs to have the settings for the weaker hardware but that doesn't limit the maximum level of the hardware it can run.

So...resolution and frame-rate? uhh yeah already touched on that.

The only advantage more powerful PC hardware has over the base hardware games are developed for are MODS...but If games are actually built to utilize a hardware's proper capability the need for mods become significantly less needed and games will be more optimized over-all.

2. PC doesn't have any issues holding "graphics king" titles, regardless of what the PS4 gets or the minimum specs that a game can be run on. Whether a game is exclusive or not is completely irrelevant.

Loading Video...

And...Horizon Zero Dawn went on to sweep all the industries graphics awards last year even when with them including maxed out multiplats on High end PC...a 2013 1.8TF GPU Console.

Great argument, you're batting 1000 right here...NEXT.

3. You do realise that your last sentence completely negates your entire thread? If different settings have nothing to do with the base development process, why are you worrying about backward hardware compatibility in games?

Reading comprehension 101. Make sure you understand what you're arguing before trying to make a point.

I didn't say anything about backward compatibility this entire thread.

BC =/= FC

How much can that 1080TI do to Tetris to make it more advance than the NES that it was originally developed for? Increased res? Some more colors? Frare rate? Yeah, I stand by my original post.

1. So you actually think that resolution and frame rates are the only thing PC does better? This alone makes me doubt your PC credentials. However I do play games on a high end PC and PS4 (no need to own an Xbox One) and have first hand experience of both.

The best mods are developed by very talented people with time to do more with an engine, where a developer does not. The best graphic mods often come out years after the release of a game.

2. Yeah this response was very obvious, Horizon Zero Dawn makes fantastic use of the technology it has available to it, using some very clever techniques to make the game look great. It's a very clear winner for tech awards last year, of that there is no doubt, but that's not the same as saying it has the best graphics. There are multiple games that do everything HZD does, better and before it came along. What GG done was make exceptionally good use of streaming and culling, as well as using 2D objects for mid to long distance.

Cuphead actually won the vast majority of graphics awards last year, not HZD.

3. Comprehension issues are your problem, backward compatibility is the proper term for hardware and software being able to use previous iterations. Forward compatibility is creating something that won't be used till new tech comes along. Crysis was forward compatible because the hardware was not available for it to be run at its' full potential when it released, Kingdom Come Deliverance is another possible example of forward compatibility. There has never been a forward compatible game on any console, the fore mentioned Crysis was shredded in the Xbox version and a shadow of the PC game.

The reason there are many games that push even the highest end, overclocked, graphics cards are simple, the most demanding games need all the power they can get when maxed out. For example you can run AC Origins on a GTX 660, yet maxed out on an overclocked 1080Ti it is using 98% of the card's resources and giving an average of 49fps, so it is using the card to it's full potential.

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#50  Edited By tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

@osan0 said:

this is not a simple topic and comes down to the games being made and what they require (yeah duh i know).

there are 2 sides to this really: the CPU and the GPU. ram is also a factor but, with current systems anyway, i think devs are happy with the ram.

on the GPU side FC can go on for a long long time now. GPUs are not really changing all that much. assuming that the PS5 uses vega for a second (itll probably use navi of course) its not that different from the GPU in the PS4. they both support the same level of DX/openGL/vulkan support (to all intents and purposes. i know sony uses their own low level driver of course and i think vega has a slightly higher level DX12 level support but nothing major.). they can both pull off the same types of effects. the PS5 GPU will just be more efficient, more refined and have a crap load more brute force. but its not a fundamental shift in how GPUs work or anything. to put it another way: any effect a PS4 can do a switch can do to...just not as quickly. strictly speaking for the GPU side: if 3rd parties did support the switch in multiplats it wouldn't hold back the high end for a long time. it wouldn't even hold back the PS5 or X2. compare that to, say, a wii and an xbox 360: the way the GPU worked in the wii was completely different to the 360 and there was stuff the 360 could do that the wii simply couldnt do even if you threw all the wiis resources at the problem.

on the CPU side things are trickier as we don't actually know what devs would do with more CPU power at their disposal. AC unity, for example, was built under the assumption that the CPUs in the current consoles would be a bigger leap over their predecessors. they werent and the games performance suffered due to large crowds and other complicated simulations. these were scaled back for syndicate.

but the underlying simulation side of a game can be harder to cut. its not like reducing a texture size or turning an effect off; tinkering with the simulation can have a profound effect on what the game is. there is some low hanging fruit that can reduce the burden like reducing the number of characters on the screen, simplifying animations for characters in the distance, reducing the world geometry, having generally fewer objects on the screen to send to the GPU (remember the CPU is also involved in the graphics process.). but what about slowing down the physics simulation? or maybe a dev has an idea that requires the CPU to keep track of huge amount of data in the background (shadow of mordor on the 360/PS3, as far as i remember, was cut back mainly due to CPU and ram limits. the nemesis system was axed.).

e.g. last gen the wii couldnt run the underlying logic for climbing buildings in the creed games. the CPU wasnt good enough to do that AND simulate the AI and do its share of the rendering and have the number of characters in screen needed to make other systems in the game work and so on. thats a fundamental part of the creed games. they could work around it of course but then it becomes a different game (probably more like POP). even if the wii had a powerful GPU and loads of ram: CPU wasn't good enough. creed was out the window.

there is an argument that one of the issues this gen is that we are essentially playing prettier versions of last gen games. nothing has really been massively enhanced (except the nemesis system in LOTR :P). if you set aside the graphics, there isnt that much being made for a PS4 that couldnt run well on a PS3 for example. however there were games made for the PS3/360 that just fundamentally wouldnt work on a PS2/GC/xbox. something like oblivion or skyrim, in terms of the underlying simulation, would have to be curtailed a lot. the AI would need to be scaled back. things like the dragon fights would probably be a non runner. remember morrowind was the best the OGxbox could muster (now you could argue that morrowind is the better game and i would agree but the underlying simulation is much simpler.). i mean if you think back you can probably think of tons of games on a 360 that just wouldnt work on an ogxbox on a simulation level. either something would need to be really cut back or it would need to completely change so that the CPU in the ogxbox could deal with it.

now whether the blame for this is the CPU or the cost of development is debatable (im leaning more on the cost of development side myself if we are to assert that the argument is true) but there does come a point where cutting back the underlying simulation of a game designed to run on, say, an 16 core/32 thread ryzen CPU (not that the PS5/X2 will have that) so itll run on the jaguar cores of the PS4/X1 will have a very profound effect on the game. turning down graphics is far easier that scaling back the underlying logic of a game.

so where do you draw the line on FC with the CPU side? if devs just want to make prettier versions of games we are getting today then the jaguar cores are probably going to be able to get he job done for years to come. but what would they like to do with more CPU power available?

Great post.

I agree with most of everything you've said.

There was a reason why the portion of the video I highlighted was him speaking on the CPU side of things rather than just the GPU.

I do agree that if it's JUST GPU then a the current gen can be stretched pretty far, hell last gen was stretched (and way too far IMO) far into this generation.

I'm gonna be honest I hated most of those cross-gen games and didn't buy the majority of them for the same reason's that I highlighted from CDPR thoughts on TW3 coming into this gen.

However with CPU + GPU advancement (Ryzen + Navi = 1080TI level or better) starting as a BASE for game development, I think just the limitations that most games have today would virtually disappear and the only the imagination (and of course budget) of devs imagination would be the limits of what games could achieve.

To be clear I'm not bashing Cross-gen games, but the idea of Forward Compatibility. They are not the same thing. Cross-gen titles are games leaking over into another generation until the new hardware gains stability. Forward Compatibility however is locking game development into the confines of a previous systems capability.