I seriously hope you guys will win and not become a gaming ghetto like Australia.
Good luck.
Warren Spector Calls Gamers to Action Oct19 to 'Protect' the Video Game Industry
This topic is locked from further discussion.
I'm with you TC, even though I don't live in the US. 8)
[QUOTE="SPYDER0416"]
[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]
No that's not at all what it's about
It's to make games clearly aimed at adults listed and sold as such
The whole "oh they'll censor it" is crap and not true
Gamers need to do everything they can to get this law passed
Jaysonguy
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The ESRB already exists to do just that, all this bill will do is make it slightly harder, but that won't take away all those 12 year olds who really love CoD. If you did a little reading instead of blindly assuming it will work out like they say it will then you might know that, but if it gets passed then have fun dealing with censored games that can no longer use the first amendment.
Again you're wrong and just saying the same scare tactics everyone is doing who doesn't want this law passed
The ESRB doesn't have anything behind it, there's no law or litigation that directs them and there's no penalty for people breaking it
All this will do is put in laws that have power to stop games from getting into children's hands
It seems you just keep re using the word scare tactics and then trying to act as if you really know what is going on in the industry. It is a fact that allowing this bill to pass will doo little to stop kids from playing games that the ESRB doesn't already enforce since most major retailers are barred from selling to minors anyways, try getting MW2 an ID. This law will just beat a dead horse with the already useful ESRB, and will further government control over games as well as censorship.
If you have no idea what you are talking about or just think it will keep out the 12 year olds that annoy you, then think again and leave. If people in SW can really believe this then this, over many other stupidities uttered in this forum, will take the ignorance cake.
If you need anymore proof of how this could negatively affect gaming, look at Australia. Everything from Manhunt to Blitz? The league, a freakin football game. The ones that aren't outright banned get severe cuts which mean zombie games with no gore. Imagine Bioshock without plasmids (drug references), little sisters, or disturbing scenes because of censorship? The artistic message would be lost and the game would be a pointless endeavor to make it playable for an audience that was not meant to play it (kids).
I seriously hope you guys will win and not become a gaming ghetto like Australia.
Good luck.
Vesica_Prime
This really affects everyone, though. Big-budget game developers will start making games to be in-line with these laws as the publisher wouldn't want to cut out such a large amount of consumers. If the Australian law managed to get Bethesda to edit a part of Fallout 3, imagine what this could do. Granted Australia is taking steps in the right direction now, this would be akin to taking 100 steps back on a much greater scale.
If you need anymore proof of how this could negatively affect gaming, look at Australia. Everything from Manhunt to Blitz? The league, a freakin football game. The ones that aren't outright banned get severe cuts which mean zombie games with no gore. Imagine Bioshock without plasmids (drug references), little sisters, or disturbing scenes because of censorship? The artistic message would be lost and the game would be a pointless endeavor to make it playable for an audience that was not meant to play it (kids).
SPYDER0416
I think people here are getting a little too zealous with it's comparisons to Australia. Things rarely get banned or censored there, the most notable being L4D2, but that's the exception to the rule. The real issue is that software that should be getting an R18+ rating is getting squeezed into an MA15+ rating, allowing minors to buy content they shouldn't.
Still pissy about us whooping your asses in the War 230 years ago? :P Please don't generalize Americans as having this false veil of freedom, it's just a minority of uninformed idiots who get more uninformed idiots to rally behind them. Most people still find these things stupid.Would this affected the UK? God damn America with its false veil of freedom. :x
WhenCicadasCry
Really the only "concern" I'd have for this law is that developers (publishers is really more like it) would start pushing more titles aimed at a Teen or less audience in order to generate big blockbuster sales. If sales to minors is restricted, it will undoubtedly negatively affect mature titles.
That being said, I'm ALL FOR limiting exposure of these mature titles to minors. I don't blame games for making kids violent, thats really the parents but there should still be some hesitation of getting 9 and 10 years games where you blow people apart.
The number of games that have been banned or censored in Australia is utterly ridiculous:I think people here are getting a little too zealous with it's comparisons to Australia. Things rarely get banned or censored there, the most notable being L4D2, but that's the exception to the rule. The real issue is that software that should be getting an R18+ rating is getting squeezed into an MA15+ rating, allowing minors to buy content they shouldn't.
hypoty
50 Cent: Bulletproof
Blitz: The League
BMX XXX
CrimeCraft
Dark Sector
Dreamweb
The Getaway
Left 4 Dead 2
Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum Laude
Marc Ecko's Getting Up: Contents Under Pressure
Manhunt
NARC
NecroVisioN
Postal 2
Phantasmagoria
Reservoir Dogs
Risen
Shellshock 2: Blood Trails
Silent Hill: Homecoming
Singles: Flirt Up Your Life
Soldier of Fortune: Payback
Voyeur
Aliens vs. Predator
Fallout 3
F.E.A.R. 2: Project Origin
Grand Theft Auto III
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
Grand Theft Auto IV
Manhunt 2
Sexy Poker
Shellshock: Nam '67
Tender Loving Care
The Punisher
Something along those like would be unheard of in the US as well as alot of countries.
The number of games that have been banned or censored in Australia is utterly ridiculous:[QUOTE="hypoty"]
I think people here are getting a little too zealous with it's comparisons to Australia. Things rarely get banned or censored there, the most notable being L4D2, but that's the exception to the rule. The real issue is that software that should be getting an R18+ rating is getting squeezed into an MA15+ rating, allowing minors to buy content they shouldn't.
Ilikemyname420
50 Cent: Bulletproof
Blitz: The League
BMX XXX
CrimeCraft
Dark Sector
Dreamweb
The Getaway
Left 4 Dead 2
Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum Laude
Marc Ecko's Getting Up: Contents Under Pressure
Manhunt
NARC
NecroVisioN
Postal 2
Phantasmagoria
Reservoir Dogs
Risen
Shellshock 2: Blood Trails
Silent Hill: Homecoming
Singles: Flirt Up Your Life
Soldier of Fortune: Payback
Voyeur
Aliens vs. Predator
Fallout 3
F.E.A.R. 2: Project Origin
Grand Theft Auto III
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
Grand Theft Auto IV
Manhunt 2
Sexy Poker
Shellshock: Nam '67
Tender Loving Care
The Punisher
Something along those like would be unheard of in the US as well as alot of countries.
And those are just the banned ones... now think about how many games Australia gets a good 6 months after the rest of the world. Whoever is in charge of censorship these days in Australia should just **** off. At least Atkinson is out of any real power.The number of games that have been banned or censored in Australia is utterly ridiculous:[QUOTE="hypoty"]
I think people here are getting a little too zealous with it's comparisons to Australia. Things rarely get banned or censored there, the most notable being L4D2, but that's the exception to the rule. The real issue is that software that should be getting an R18+ rating is getting squeezed into an MA15+ rating, allowing minors to buy content they shouldn't.
Ilikemyname420
50 Cent: Bulletproof
Blitz: The League
BMX XXX
CrimeCraft
Dark Sector
Dreamweb
The Getaway
Left 4 Dead 2
Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum Laude
Marc Ecko's Getting Up: Contents Under Pressure
Manhunt
NARC
NecroVisioN (sold uncut on Steam)
Postal 2
Phantasmagoria
Reservoir Dogs
Risen
Shellshock 2: Blood Trails
Silent Hill: Homecoming
Singles: Flirt Up Your Life
Soldier of Fortune: Payback
Voyeur
Aliens vs. Predator
Fallout 3
F.E.A.R. 2: Project Origin
Grand Theft Auto III
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
Grand Theft Auto IV
Manhunt 2 (got the same cut version as Europe)
Sexy Poker
Shellshock: Nam '67
Tender Loving Care
The Punisher
Something along those like would be unheard of in the US as well as alot of countries.
The bolded ones aren't banned or censored, or at least not now anyway. As for the rest, well L4D2 is the only one worth crying about IMO. It has more to do with the extreme confusion when a game gets clas.sified in Australia, for example The Witcher got initially censored in the States yet Australia gets a fully uncut version, yet Risen gets banned in Australia despite it being nowhere near as bad. That and games that get released worldwide at an R18+ rating universally get released in Australia with an MA15+ rating. The issue that Warren Spector is warning us about is leagues above the issues in Australia, which seem insignificant and fair in comparison. Not to mention the reasons behind both issues are incomparable.
If there is one thing anyone can agree on, even in SW, its this. So please fellow SW members, even the ones who use ban dodge accounts or constantly hate on a system they do not own yet claim they do, make sure to protect the rights of videogames and support free speech.
SPYDER0416
:P
Did they censor music and or movies when they got higher more strict ratings to keep them out of the hands of children? no then the same won't happen here.
So basically what they are doing is.......enforcing the rating system, which many stores already do? Are you guys seriously that uptight about it?lettuceman44
If this law goes through it will make the US another Australia. Do you really want that the government can decide what games can be sold and what not? And the US is so big market that it will affect the whole world. I don't live in the US, but I still pray to God and Flying Spaghetti Monster that this law won't go through.
The scary thing is that it's entirly possible if the supreme court is having a bad day they could rule in favor of this and make it happen like that. Considering that Movies and Music are litteraly classified as Art, where Video games have yet to garner that title.Did they censor music and or movies when they got higher more strict ratings to keep them out of the hands of children? no then the same won't happen here.
WilliamRLBaker
[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"]The scary thing is that it's entirly possible if the supreme court is having a bad day they could rule in favor of this and make it happen like that. Considering that Movies and Music are litteraly classified as Art, where Video games have yet to garner that title.Did they censor music and or movies when they got higher more strict ratings to keep them out of the hands of children? no then the same won't happen here.
Jynxzor
No, he's right. The market is too large in the US. Given the state of the US economy, I can't see anything happening here.
I think this page here kind of highlights the risk that is being created
http://theesa.com/policy/whats_next.asp
Just read it over, people. Itll take ya 2 minutes to go through it
The number of games that have been banned or censored in Australia is utterly ridiculous:[QUOTE="Ilikemyname420"]
[QUOTE="hypoty"]
I think people here are getting a little too zealous with it's comparisons to Australia. Things rarely get banned or censored there, the most notable being L4D2, but that's the exception to the rule. The real issue is that software that should be getting an R18+ rating is getting squeezed into an MA15+ rating, allowing minors to buy content they shouldn't.
hypoty
50 Cent: Bulletproof
Blitz: The League
BMX XXX
CrimeCraft
Dark Sector
Dreamweb
The Getaway
Left 4 Dead 2
Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum Laude
Marc Ecko's Getting Up: Contents Under Pressure
Manhunt
NARC
NecroVisioN (sold uncut on Steam)
Postal 2
Phantasmagoria
Reservoir Dogs
Risen
Shellshock 2: Blood Trails
Silent Hill: Homecoming
Singles: Flirt Up Your Life
Soldier of Fortune: Payback
Voyeur
Aliens vs. Predator
Fallout 3
F.E.A.R. 2: Project Origin
Grand Theft Auto III
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
Grand Theft Auto IV
Manhunt 2 (got the same cut version as Europe)
Sexy Poker
Shellshock: Nam '67
Tender Loving Care
The Punisher
Something along those like would be unheard of in the US as well as alot of countries.
The bolded ones aren't banned or censored, or at least not now anyway. As for the rest, well L4D2 is the only one worth crying about IMO. It has more to do with the extreme confusion when a game gets clas.sified in Australia, for example The Witcher got initially censored in the States yet Australia gets a fully uncut version, yet Risen gets banned in Australia despite it being nowhere near as bad. That and games that get released worldwide at an R18+ rating universally get released in Australia with an MA15+ rating. The issue that Warren Spector is warning us about is leagues above the issues in Australia, which seem insignificant and fair in comparison. Not to mention the reasons behind both issues are incomparable.
Nothing has been FORCED to be censored in the states because (at least at the moment) all video games are covered by free speech, the makers of the witcher censored themselves. This would be an unheard of law in the US. The difference between this and the Australian law is that this law would be in direct violation of the bill of rights and the constitution. Those games you bolded were at least banned or refused ****fication at one point(BTW thanks to Australia for giving EVERYONE a censored version of Fallout 3). And to those in a different country that think this won't apply to them... If games are censored to meet US standards (if this law passes) you can expect that to apply world wide .Okay... You're absolutely confusing free speech with a whole other sector of our societal laws. Driving drunk is a physical threat to a human being, whether or not I'm pro or anti drunk driving laws is just a red herring in this argument. A physical threat doesn't even belong in this conversation. We are discussing censorship, something that has happened time and time again in history and has been attempted in the United States multiple times in the past. Rock music, comic books, pornography. I really don't see how the risk here is that hard to understand. If the issue was just a 10 year old buying GTA or not, which is what I think you all are diluting it down to, I would agree with you. We are talking about direct government intervention in an art form, which is UNPRECEDENTED FOR A REASON.[QUOTE="DarkBalta_basic"][QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]
Everything you just said is not true and is one of the many scare tactics used to force people to vote against it.
The idea that "this creates the chance for more laws that could be bad" argument is dead too
We have a law that tries to prevent people from driving drunk, using the logic of the people who use the scare tactics that law should have never been passed because "what happens if they stop us from driving at all?"
Jaysonguy
There's no intervention besides having to qualify for a rating and then having it be sold as such and then stronger laws punishing people who sell it to people who it's not intended for.
There is no censorship
Know how that whole camp got censorship into it? They were told that to meet certain criteria with their rating system they would have to remove some things and they cried censorship because they don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to actual problems with this. If they didn't want to edit their games they would just get another rating, nothing would ever be censored and stopped from being released.
Once this happens people may actually start to take the gaming world seriously
This is going to pass by leaps and bounds because the people who know all the facts are also in the age demographic of ones who vote most often so soon this will just be a law and we wont have to hear anymore scare tactics
This is a quote directly from the bill itself:
Unlike regulations which have failed in other states, this bill seeks to restrict only the most extreme depictions of violence against humans. The language used in this bill regulates the sale of only those games thatontain the most heinous, cruel or depraved acts of violence. It also is limited to those games which, taken as a whole, lack any redeeming social, literary, artistic, political, or scientific values, which is consistent with the Supreme Court's obscenity definitions and has survived vagueness challenges.
Courts have rejected many attempts to regulate violence because the regulations contained vague language. This bill specifically defines the terms heinous, cruel, depraved, torture, and serious physical abuse; and lists pertinent factors to consider in determining whether the violence is especially heinous, cruel, or depraved. The term "heinous, cruel, or depraved" is used in federal law to determine if an aggravating factor exists in a crime so as to warrant the death penalty.
So, if this bill gets passed, we're looking at every game depicting "heinous, cruel or depraved" (as determined by the government) violence get slapped with a Mature rating. Since the government definition of these terms involves killing and/or maiming human beings, this means that any game that wouldn't normally fit under a mature label gets stuck under it anyway (Uncharted, anyone?).
Also, note the section that states "taken as a whole, lack any redeeming social, literary, artistic, political, or scientific values." Are you freaking kidding me? You can't sit there and tell me that the government trying to step in and tell the gaming industry what does and doesn't have redeeming values isn't freaking censorship.
[QUOTE="SPYDER0416"]
It seems you just keep re using the word scare tactics and then trying to act as if you really know what is going on in the industry. It is a fact that allowing this bill to pass will doo little to stop kids from playing games that the ESRB doesn't already enforce since most major retailers are barred from selling to minors anyways, try getting MW2 an ID. This law will just beat a dead horse with the already useful ESRB, and will further government control over games as well as censorship.
If you have no idea what you are talking about or just think it will keep out the 12 year olds that annoy you, then think again and leave. If people in SW can really believe this then this, over many other stupidities uttered in this forum, will take the ignorance cake.
If you need anymore proof of how this could negatively affect gaming, look at Australia. Everything from Manhunt to Blitz? The league, a freakin football game. The ones that aren't outright banned get severe cuts which mean zombie games with no gore. Imagine Bioshock without plasmids (drug references), little sisters, or disturbing scenes because of censorship? The artistic message would be lost and the game would be a pointless endeavor to make it playable for an audience that was not meant to play it (kids).
Mograine
The one you're having an argument with is the same guy who said pirates are as bad as rapists, murderers and pedophiles.
It's obvious he lacks a cog or two, just leave him alone.
Ontopic, I'm against censorship of any kind, so I'm with Spector.
Really? Wow I don't know how he could possibly expect to be taken seriously.
Honestly though, music and movies don't have the restrictions that would be put in place by this law that games woul have. Movies and games can be seen by or heard by anyone with the main restrictions being the retailers and the parents, games right now have that same exact restricion, but this law would make it much worse and would be unfair to videogames and those who sell them. Its also irresponsible, parents should take care of their kids not make the government do it.
[QUOTE="hypoty"]
[QUOTE="Ilikemyname420"] The number of games that have been banned or censored in Australia is utterly ridiculous:
50 Cent: Bulletproof
Blitz: The League
BMX XXX
CrimeCraft
Dark Sector
Dreamweb
The Getaway
Left 4 Dead 2
Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum Laude
Marc Ecko's Getting Up: Contents Under Pressure
Manhunt
NARC
NecroVisioN (sold uncut on Steam)
Postal 2
Phantasmagoria
Reservoir Dogs
Risen
Shellshock 2: Blood Trails
Silent Hill: Homecoming
Singles: Flirt Up Your Life
Soldier of Fortune: Payback
Voyeur
Aliens vs. Predator
Fallout 3
F.E.A.R. 2: Project Origin
Grand Theft Auto III
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
Grand Theft Auto IV
Manhunt 2 (got the same cut version as Europe)
Sexy Poker
Shellshock: Nam '67
Tender Loving Care
The Punisher
Something along those like would be unheard of in the US as well as alot of countries.
Ilikemyname420
The bolded ones aren't banned or censored, or at least not now anyway. As for the rest, well L4D2 is the only one worth crying about IMO. It has more to do with the extreme confusion when a game gets clas.sified in Australia, for example The Witcher got initially censored in the States yet Australia gets a fully uncut version, yet Risen gets banned in Australia despite it being nowhere near as bad. That and games that get released worldwide at an R18+ rating universally get released in Australia with an MA15+ rating. The issue that Warren Spector is warning us about is leagues above the issues in Australia, which seem insignificant and fair in comparison. Not to mention the reasons behind both issues are incomparable.
Nothing has been FORCED to be censored in the states because (at least at the moment) all video games are covered by free speech, the makers of the witcher censored themselves. This would be an unheard of law in the US. The difference between this and the Australian law is that this law would be in direct violation of the bill of rights and the constitution. Those games you bolded were at least banned or refused ****fication at one point(BTW thanks to Australia for giving EVERYONE a censored version of Fallout 3). And to those in a different country that think this won't apply to them... If games are censored to meet US standards (if this law passes) you can expect that to apply world wide .I agree 100%, which is why I said "this would be akin to taking 100 steps back on a much greater scale" compared to the way things are in Australia in an earlier post. But both issues are a world a part and comparisons with Australian law just don't fit considering the reasons and ideas behind both, an example being the U.S law is trying too hard to keep violent games away from children, while the Australian law is allowing access to violent games too easily. I'm not tryin to discredit the importance of getting this law rejected, read my earlier posts and see where I'm coming from.
[QUOTE="SAGE_OF_FIRE"]isn't this just to keep M rated games out of the hands of minors? If so I don't care. SPYDER0416
Absolutely not, this is a bill that would essentially give videogames the same treatment as pornography and means they would no longer be protected by the first amendment. It would mean slapping a big 18 on games, making them as accessable as before to minors who really want them, but with an extra bit of censorship across the board. Imagine if this law was in place when GTA III got made, you know what would have become of most games today without that foray into open world and adult games?
Its ignorant to think its just something to keep kids from playing games when the ESRB already does a better job then the music or movie industry do at labeling games.
Will read later but in essence California will turn into Australia?[QUOTE="SPYDER0416"][QUOTE="SAGE_OF_FIRE"]isn't this just to keep M rated games out of the hands of minors? If so I don't care. Zero_epyon
Absolutely not, this is a bill that would essentially give videogames the same treatment as pornography and means they would no longer be protected by the first amendment. It would mean slapping a big 18 on games, making them as accessable as before to minors who really want them, but with an extra bit of censorship across the board. Imagine if this law was in place when GTA III got made, you know what would have become of most games today without that foray into open world and adult games?
Its ignorant to think its just something to keep kids from playing games when the ESRB already does a better job then the music or movie industry do at labeling games.
Will read later but in essence California will turn into Australia?The issue in Australia is that there is no R18+ rating for games, it was an oversight that is being corrected. The issue this law presents is much more severe to the mainstream gaming industry.
Will read later but in essence California will turn into Australia?[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"][QUOTE="SPYDER0416"]
Absolutely not, this is a bill that would essentially give videogames the same treatment as pornography and means they would no longer be protected by the first amendment. It would mean slapping a big 18 on games, making them as accessable as before to minors who really want them, but with an extra bit of censorship across the board. Imagine if this law was in place when GTA III got made, you know what would have become of most games today without that foray into open world and adult games?
Its ignorant to think its just something to keep kids from playing games when the ESRB already does a better job then the music or movie industry do at labeling games.
hypoty
The issue in Australia is that there is no R18+ rating for games, it was an oversight that is being corrected. The issue this law presents is much more severe to the mainstream gaming industry.
Yeah I know, but the basic idea is that the government decides what can and can't get a 15 rating. Look at Getting Up, a game about graffiti. Should it really have been denied classification for a 15 rating because of "glorifying graffiti"? This law will allow them the US government to deny games from being released because of simple things like this, and all it could do is spiral down until a little blood or suggestiveness in a game means it is banned. Since the US is one of the alrgest markets for games in the world, this is definitely NOT GOOD.
I dont believe its this law itself that is worrying people, its there will be a precedent for future laws that will further censor the industry. redstormrisen
Yes this is the correct answer however, not surprisingly though many are to stupid to link anything inside their minds. -Sigh- Just like with issues in politics people can only look at the short term. They fail to have the cognitive ability to grasp anything more
[QUOTE="redstormrisen"]I dont believe its this law itself that is worrying people, its there will be a precedent for future laws that will further censor the industry. ActicEdge
What is there to worry about though? At worse games get trated like movies, I don't see the big deal with that. Thecensorship is only going to affect people who aren't even mature enough to be touching those games in the first place. The worst worst case senario is that the pubs censor content to appeal more to the masses but pubs are dumb and they do that already.
Thats not necessarily true and there are multiple reasons for that. The video game industry simply isn't as wide spread as the movie industry is. Additionally, politicians on both ends of the spectrum (conservative or liberal) have used and will use the video game industry as a tool for propping themselves in the public's eye. Its an issue both sides will pick on in the effort to score a couple votes. If you think that this isn't true then I doubt you follow politics to any extent.
[QUOTE="hypoty"]
[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] Will read later but in essence California will turn into Australia? SPYDER0416
The issue in Australia is that there is no R18+ rating for games, it was an oversight that is being corrected. The issue this law presents is much more severe to the mainstream gaming industry.
Yeah I know, but the basic idea is that the government decides what can and can't get a 15 rating. Look at Getting Up, a game about graffiti. Should it really have been denied classification for a 15 rating because of "glorifying graffiti"? This law will allow them the US government to deny games from being released because of simple things like this, and all it could do is spiral down until a little blood or suggestiveness in a game means it is banned. Since the US is one of the alrgest markets for games in the world, this is definitely NOT GOOD.
Yes, I know all about the issue. This will lead to developers making their games to fit within these laws so they don't miss out on all those consumers in California, affecting gamers worldwide. It's also a slippery slope considering other states will see this and get a law of their own. Though, the Australian government doesn't choose what's in or not, the OFLC just does what is can with an outdated mess of a rating system which is hopefully being replaced soon.
After sifting through piles and piles of comments where people pull crap out of nowhere. Can someone please provide a link to a site that outlines the proposed bill. I don't want to read about how it could effect the future, I don't want to hear about how people are going to stop selling games because of it, and I don't want to read about why it's bad for gaming...I just want the bill. forgot_it
http://www.mediacoalition.org/mediaimages/ab_1179%5B1%5D.pdf
Found a html version but gamespot won't let me link it. So unless you want to google 'AB 1179' yourself a pdf will have to do.
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