Nintendo went to the Looking Glass Studios School of Game Design

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texasgoldrush

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#1  Edited By texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 14899 Posts

Because Breath of the Wild is an immersive sim, not only that, a landmark one.

http://www.giantbomb.com/immersive-sim/3015-5700/

It checks almost all of these conditions, and the one that it doesn't, really shouldn't be a defining feature in the first place as immersive sims do not have to be in first person.

And really, it may very well be the best immersive sim ever as EVERYTHING in the environment plays a role to help and hinder you. Not only that, unlike most other immersive sims, monsters interact with the environment as well. I also like how you can just skip the story and go straight to the final boss. You can approach combat, puzzles, and the environment in so many different ways, its crazy.

Once again, not only does the Looking Glass Studios legacy continue, it now has impacted one of the premier gaming series. And really Paul Neurath must be picking his jaw off the floor.

However, I think Nintendo has room to improve, definitely on the social aspect of NPC interaction. But now Nintendo may be head of the class. This is what was missing in Japanese gaming in so very long.

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mems_1224

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#2 mems_1224
Member since 2004 • 56919 Posts

Skyrim is better

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texasgoldrush

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#3 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 14899 Posts

@mems_1224 said:

Skyrim is better

Skyrim is also Looking Glass Studios legacy.

But no, its not better than Breath of the Wild.

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waahahah

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#4 waahahah
Member since 2014 • 2462 Posts

Why do you feel the need to try to take any successful game and apply its roots to some western developer?

And I would say no, this isn't an immersive sim, and neither is skyrim.

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Blabadon

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#5 Blabadon
Member since 2008 • 33030 Posts

Life is Strange is better.

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texasgoldrush

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#6 texasgoldrush
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@waahahah said:

Why do you feel the need to try to take any successful game and apply its roots to some western developer?

And I would say no, this isn't an immersive sim, and neither is skyrim.

The Elder Scrolls is definitely inspired by Ultima Underworld, without a doubt. And it is an immersive sim.

Its a western developer that established this type of gameplay, so yes, the roots do come from a Western developer.

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#7  Edited By waahahah
Member since 2014 • 2462 Posts

@texasgoldrush said:
@waahahah said:

Why do you feel the need to try to take any successful game and apply its roots to some western developer?

And I would say no, this isn't an immersive sim, and neither is skyrim.

The Elder Scrolls is definitely inspired by Ultima Underworld, without a doubt. And it is an immersive sim.

Its a western developer that established this type of gameplay, so yes, the roots do come from a Western developer.

This game is nothing like skyrim, its a totally different concept for open world design, it doesn't have the sort of choice/consequences or multiple solutions with no failure state of an immersive sim.

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texasgoldrush

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#8  Edited By texasgoldrush
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@waahahah said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@waahahah said:

Why do you feel the need to try to take any successful game and apply its roots to some western developer?

And I would say no, this isn't an immersive sim, and neither is skyrim.

The Elder Scrolls is definitely inspired by Ultima Underworld, without a doubt. And it is an immersive sim.

Its a western developer that established this type of gameplay, so yes, the roots do come from a Western developer.

This game is nothing like skyrim, its a totally different concept for open world design, it doesn't have the sort of choice/consequences of an immersive sim either.

Yes it does. You can even fight the final boss without going through the story and the consequences are different. You can also choose how to approach problems and the way you act with the world has consequences. It has all the hallmarks of an immersive sim.

Skyrim does to. It is also an immersive sim. It struggles with these elements, but it is one. MGSV is as well.

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#9 FireEmblem_Man
Member since 2004 • 20248 Posts

@waahahah: Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy had a ton of inspiration from Ultima and Wizardry.

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mems_1224

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#10 mems_1224
Member since 2004 • 56919 Posts

@texasgoldrush: false.

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texasgoldrush

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#11  Edited By texasgoldrush
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@FireEmblem_Man said:

@waahahah: Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy had a ton of inspiration from Ultima and Wizardry.

Zelda has Ultima influence as well.......but with Breath of the Wild, Zelda now has Ultima Underworld influence. And Breath of the Wild's hot and cold environment mechanics are similar to Ultima VII Part II's.

@Blabadon said:

Life is Strange is better.

Funny, it has Looking Glass legacy as well, not an immersive sim, but it has some of that legacy. Vampyr, the studios next game, will be an immersive sim.

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uninspiredcup

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#12 uninspiredcup  Online
Member since 2013 • 58954 Posts

Agree with Maradox.

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#13 Elpresador-911
Member since 2013 • 1096 Posts

GTA4 better

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waahahah

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#14  Edited By waahahah
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@texasgoldrush said:

Yes it does. You can even fight the final boss without going through the story and the consequences are different. You can also choose how to approach problems and the way you act with the world has consequences. It has all the hallmarks of an immersive sim.

Skyrim does to. It is also an immersive sim. It struggles with these elements, but it is one. MGSV is as well.

Approaching problems is different then lets say differences in outcomes because of different choices. The vast majority of solutions lead to the same outcome there is very little emphasis on leaving you're mark on the world based on choices. Which goes against one of the more important aspects of being a immersive sim.

For instance getting to the top of the peak.. there are many solutions but only a single outcome and it doesn't effect the state of the world.

@texasgoldrush said:

Zelda has Ultima influence as well.......but with Breath of the Wild, Zelda now has Ultima Underworld influence. And Breath of the Wild's hot and cold environment mechanics are similar to Ultima VII Part II's.

Modeling a game mechanic from... real life physics and weather doesn't mean they took influence from an old game. There is a lot more to the weather mechanics and environments that set zelda apart from... almost every other game. Like wearing metal can cause lightning to strike you in a storm, or its harder to climb while its raining, setting things on fire can cause a gust of wind and you can ride it with you're para glider. Holding a torch in a grass field you can set yourself on fire, then ride up in the para glider in style.

This game plays like an open world, survival adventure game, with unique weather and physical mechanics. Even if there was influence, zelda is its own thing now. There is a minutia of those old archaic games. The reality the roots of ultima and other looking glass studios mechanics are so far removed and not even related to the main concept this game drives home and is pointless to even care about.

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#15  Edited By texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 14899 Posts

@waahahah: Wrong

Lets toss some spoilers here. In Breath of the Wild, you can go straight to the final boss and if you do so you fight any form of Ganon you do not take on in the Divine Beasts, and since none of the Divine Beasts are activated, no one fires at Calamity Ganon, making you fight all 100% of his health, where if you free all four, they will take out half of his health. Also, if you do not get all the memories, you will not have the final ending..

So you are wrong in that decisions do not impact the story. They do. It was designed that way. Nevermind that System Shock and Thief series games do not have choices that affect the story but they are immersive sims. the Thief games also have fail states other than death.

Second, there is no possible way that the developers did not take from Western gaming. They borrowed many elements from Western games and its obvious, like the Far Cry type fire effects or the UbiSoft towers. Also Japanese game developers are NOT known from systems based game design. BOTW and games like MGSV are new to Japanese development, and From Soft has been aping Looking Glass all throughout its history. BOTW's game design is clearly derived from the systems based gameplay that were popularized in Ultima Underworld. They build the foundation that many modern games stand on. And clearly, Zelda is not its own thing, it never was.

And BOTW is the most system based game ever developed by Japan in a long while. In fact, the only scripted moments are approaches to the Divine Beasts.

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#16 Litchie
Member since 2003 • 34605 Posts

I see it as BotW is just Nintendo doing Nintendo. If people thought they wouldn't be able to do Nintendo (create a near flawless game) in an open world, they must now eat their words as Nintendo could do it no problem and create one of (if not the) best open world experience ever in the process. It's like the whole world is one huge well thought-out designed level. I've never seen this in another open world game.

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#17  Edited By texasgoldrush
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@Litchie said:

I see it as BotW is just Nintendo doing Nintendo. If people thought they wouldn't be able to do Nintendo (create a near flawless game) in an open world, they must now eat their words as Nintendo could do it no problem and create one of (if not the) best open world experience ever in the process. It's like the whole world is one huge well thought-out designed level. I've never seen this in another open world game.

Nintendo can certainly take things to the next level, but you cannot deny that BOTW's systems based gameplay is derived from Looking Glass and earlier old school RPGs as well as modern Western games influenced by Looking Glass. And its not just about open world, they nailed system based gameplay. In fact the latter is more impressive than the former.

http://www.pcgamer.com/the-legend-of-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-is-the-most-pc-nintendo-game-ever/

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#18 Planeforger
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@waahahah: To be fair, Skyrim doesn't really have any meaningful choices or consequences.

Meanwhile, I agree with Texas here. Bethesda games borrow heavily from Looking Glass Studios' design principles, and BotW is obviously Nintendo's response to all of the Oblivion and Skyrim comparisons drawn from the last few Zelda games.

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#19 Sancho_Panzer
Member since 2015 • 2524 Posts

Ok, but only if we get to file UC4 as a point-and-click adventure game, like Broken Sword and Gabriel Knight.

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#20 waahahah
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@texasgoldrush said:

@waahahah: Wrong

Lets toss some spoilers here. In Breath of the Wild, you can go straight to the final boss and if you do so you fight any form of Ganon you do not take on in the Divine Beasts, and since none of the Divine Beasts are activated, no one fires at Calamity Ganon, making you fight all 100% of his health, where if you free all four, they will take out half of his health. Also, if you do not get all the memories, you will not have the final ending..

So you are wrong in that decisions do not impact the story. They do. It was designed that way. Nevermind that System Shock and Thief series games do not have choices that affect the story but they are immersive sims. the Thief games also have fail states other than death.

Second, there is no possible way that the developers did not take from Western gaming. They borrowed many elements from Western games and its obvious, like the Far Cry type fire effects or the UbiSoft towers. Also Japanese game developers are NOT known from systems based game design. BOTW and games like MGSV are new to Japanese development, and From Soft has been aping Looking Glass all throughout its history. BOTW's game design is clearly derived from the systems based gameplay that were popularized in Ultima Underworld. They build the foundation that many modern games stand on. And clearly, Zelda is not its own thing, it never was.

And BOTW is the most system based game ever developed by Japan in a long while. In fact, the only scripted moments are approaches to the Divine Beasts.

Multiple endings go back to choose you're own adventure books. There is nothing significant that western developers own about this concept, its stuff that humans have to deal with every day.

Its hard not to step on the original adventure games or w/e came before it but to say that BOTW game design is even remotely related to ultima is kind of stupid. Its based on western fantasy, thats about all the similarities it shares. Conceptually its a survival adventure game, where you battle more the environment than enemies. There is overlap with ultima, but in the end the things they shared are based on reality and western fantasy.

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#21  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23912 Posts

The Elder Scrolls originated as something that oculd be described as a mix between Ultima Underworld and Rogue. Hell, I remember a similar quote from one of the early TES developers as well. As for the new Zelda. It is very possible that there is some of Looking Glass's DNA in BotW. Just like Zelda had influence on the Ultima franchise. There has been a lot of intermingling. Talented studios will end up influencing each other.

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#22 SecretPolice  Online
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Sea of Thieves is King. :P

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#23  Edited By Bread_or_Decide
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One of my favorite moments so far...I was in the starting area, on the plateau, and had to find a way to reach a shrine. But the shrine is in a cold zone...I found some hot peppers. Turns out that if I cooked them I got 2 minutes in the cold before I started to die. Used this trick to reach the shrine so I could finally get off the plateau. And with this game, those little wow moments just keep on coming.

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#24 waahahah
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@Planeforger said:

@waahahah: To be fair, Skyrim doesn't really have any meaningful choices or consequences.

Meanwhile, I agree with Texas here. Bethesda games borrow heavily from Looking Glass Studios' design principles, and BotW is obviously Nintendo's response to all of the Oblivion and Skyrim comparisons drawn from the last few Zelda games.

I mean I just wouldn't compare zelda with skyrim. The game is just so different apart from a big open map and based on western fantasy. The design principles is likely heavily diluted with new principles, new ideas that the majority of the game make up.

And skyrim, I'm not sure, people don't consider morrowind an immersive sim, with oblivion/skyrim they removed the roll mechanic and poof, its an immersive sim? Its more of a quest simulator... I just don't see the same sort of philosphy between something like thief / bioshock and elder scrolls. They are very different games when you get into the meat of things.

I mean look at some of these things

  • Immersion in an elaborate and believable game world.
  • Simulation: physics and AI are used to create believable behavior in objects and characters which the player can freely interact with, resulting in 'emergent gameplay'.
  • Game design that allows for multiple paths and/or multiple solutions in every situation.
  • A systemic game world that keeps track of the player's actions, which can affect the "whole" game.
  • open-ended/non-linear game design with an emphasis on choice and consequence.
  • Full control over the player's character in every situation.
  • A world with consistent rules that the player can interact with.
  • Narrative that is not always forced on the player, but instead can be told through exploration and gameplay at that players will.
  • No fail states, beyond player death.

A huge concept of the immersive sim is having different outcomes based on different choices... skyrim. Some of these were being experimented on on a regular bases, like simulation of AI can go back to the original metal gear on how enemies didn't just know where you are. You can generally use different tools to solve a problem in these games but normally its not different outcomes, usually there is a one solution, many ways to get there.

Not to mention they didn't invent these principles, a lot of this stuff can be traced back to.. real life experience and they wanted to simulate that. What they did was pull a particular assortment of ideas together to create games like dues ex.

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#25  Edited By _SKatEDiRt_
Member since 2007 • 3117 Posts

@texasgoldrush: Cant compare Zelda to skyrim.

PS: Zelda looks like nintendo 64 IMO

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#26 Tjeremiah1988
Member since 2003 • 16665 Posts

GTA IV is better.

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#27  Edited By texasgoldrush
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@waahahah: Skyrim is definitely an immersive sim. Is it a good one? Absolutely not, but the elements are still there.

Game design that allows for multiple paths and/or multiple solutions in every situation: Which is a problem for Skyrim. Combat wise, yes, however.

A systemic game world that keeps track of the player's actions, which can affect the "whole" game: Skyrim DEFINITELY does this.

open-ended/non-linear game design with an emphasis on choice and consequence: Still has it but it really doesn't do it that well.

No fail states, beyond player death: Check for Skyrim, you cannot fail the game other than death. Some immersive sims DO have fail states other than death, for example, the Thief series.

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waahahah

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#28 waahahah
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@texasgoldrush said:

@waahahah: Skyrim is definitely an immersive sim. Is it a good one? Absolutely not, but the elements are still there.

Game design that allows for multiple paths and/or multiple solutions in every situation: Which is a problem for Skyrim. Combat wise, yes, however.

A systemic game world that keeps track of the player's actions, which can affect the "whole" game: Skyrim DEFINITELY does this.

open-ended/non-linear game design with an emphasis on choice and consequence: Still has it but it really doesn't do it that well.

No fail states, beyond player death: Check for Skyrim, you cannot fail the game other than death. Some immersive sims DO have fail states other than death, for example, the Thief series.

  • narratively there is almost no choice/consequence. I can't remember any particulars, there might be some options I may have missed.
  • Gameplay there is never multiple solutions, a single solution with multiple tools to enact it.
  • No fail states other than death because there is no other states, you either finish the quest or your in progress finishing it.

Secondly interactive narrative which encompasses these points this predates video gaming, they didn't make it, looking glasses principles drew from d&d structure.

Open ended gampeplay with mechanics? d&d, board games to some extent. S

They didn't invent things like emergent gamplay (tetris by definition has emergent gameplay),, or how interactions with AI can create it which goes back to the 1950s with nim, later pacman.

Simulation of phsyics or physics based systems... asteroids/pong...

So lets take a look at immersive sim...

This is the basis for video gaming

  • Simulation: physics and AI are used to create believable behavior in objects and characters which the player can freely interact with, resulting in 'emergent gameplay'.
  • A world with consistent rules that the player can interact with.

Interactive Narrative - what constitutes most interactive sims

  • No fail states, beyond player death.
  • Full control over the player's character in every situation.
  • Game design that allows for multiple paths and/or multiple solutions in every situation.
  • A systemic game world that keeps track of the player's actions, which can affect the "whole" game.
  • open-ended/non-linear game design with an emphasis on choice and consequence.

What we are left with

  • Immersion in an elaborate and believable game world.
  • Narrative that is not always forced on the player, but instead can be told through exploration and gameplay at the players will.

So I didn't bother looking up whether or not d&d supports option sidequests/lore... so I'll give looking glass this one. But the first line here... isn't really a design principle, its more the target they were trying to achieve with the collective principles they were going for.

Gaming / ultima is a derivation of fantasy and games that came before it. Same with looking glass studios immersive sim. They didn't invent the concepts but pulled them together in a particular assortment. The main influences that exist today predate looking glass / ultima. And even then gaming probably takes influences far more from real life and thats why we try to simulate it with video games.

For instance zeldas weather mechanics. They are likely influenced by real life, same with ultima, so there is overlap because as humans we share the same experiences with weather.

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#29  Edited By texasgoldrush
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@waahahah: Ummmm.....The Civil War quests? Dawnguard? There are some moments where choice does affect the game in Skyrim.

Also Thief (the first two at least) does NOT have choices that affect the story. You have one goal, but multiple ways to achieve it. yet its an immersive sim. Not every requirement listed on Giant Bomb has to be fulfilled.

Am I a big fan of Skyrim? No. I think its an overrated game where a massive amount of gamers are willing to ignore flaws that other games get criticized for. But it is still very much an immersive sim, just not in the way I wanted it to be. There is still a ton of system based rules and emergent gameplay, as well as player freedom.

Origin Systems are pioneers for translating the D&D experience into video gaming. yes they were influenced by table top gaming, but in the video game medium, they are pioneers that influenced the industry. Its spinoff studio still is very much influential in modern gaming. And really, its the main Ultima series that are the first immersive sims in my eyes, Underworld is just the first 3d first person one.

Breath of the Wild very much is an immersive Sim, and more so than most Western games.

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#30 uninspiredcup  Online
Member since 2013 • 58954 Posts
@texasgoldrush said:

@waahahah: Ummmm.....The Civil War quests? Dawnguard? There are some moments where choice does affect the game in Skyrim.

True that.

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#31  Edited By texasgoldrush
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@uninspiredcup: Too bad you can't kill children in Bethesda games, not without a mod. And it would not be ludonarrative dissonance to do so.

Although immersive sims however DO have ludonarrative dissonance problems. That is one of the genre's weaknesses. BOTW actually avoids this, you cannot really hurt townspeople for example, as that would be outside Link's character.

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#32 DEadliNE-Zero0
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@waahahah said:

Why do you feel the need to try to take any successful game and apply its roots to some western developer?

And I would say no, this isn't an immersive sim, and neither is skyrim.

japanese desv take inspiration from western all the time.

From software admited to taking inspiration from ultimate underworld for king's field and dark souls

RE7 was clearly inspired for the popular first person horror games that amnesia popularized years ago

all the current open world japanese games like mgs5, ff xv and zelda admited to taking Skyrim's open world as the base

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#33  Edited By uninspiredcup  Online
Member since 2013 • 58954 Posts

@texasgoldrush said:

@uninspiredcup: Too bad you can't kill children in Bethesda games, not without a mod.

Although immersive sims however DO have ludonarrative dissonance problems. That is one of the genre's weaknesses. BOTW actually avoids this, you cannot really hurt townspeople for example, as that would be outside Link's character.

The thing that's interesting about that is that the adaptation dlc came much later. Bethesda seem to have predicated some sick bastard would go on a murdering spree and programmed the kids to respond with "my parents are dead please adopt me".

Either that, or it's a case of an automated response that wasn't intended to be used for an incident that wasn't programmed to happen.

Which i think is what they call unintentional emergence.

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#34  Edited By texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 14899 Posts

@uninspiredcup said:
@texasgoldrush said:

@uninspiredcup: Too bad you can't kill children in Bethesda games, not without a mod.

Although immersive sims however DO have ludonarrative dissonance problems. That is one of the genre's weaknesses. BOTW actually avoids this, you cannot really hurt townspeople for example, as that would be outside Link's character.

The thing that's interesting about that is that the adaptation dlc came much later. Bethesda seem to have predicated some sick bastard would go on a murdering spree and programmed the kids to respond with "my parents are dead please adopt me".

Bioware wouldn't let you do that, at all.

Bioware lately has more established characters however, and if you give these characters certain choices, they would be acting out of character, therefore ludonarrative dissonance. I have major issues with Renegade Shepard in ME1 and ME2 acting out of the logic of his position, it doesn't need to get worse. And not every franchise needs to be an immersive sim, sometimes being a partial one, like Andromeda will be, will work.

Ludonarrative dissonance is a problem in immersive sims, for example, Adam Jansen killing innocent people. Completely out of his characterization, but you can do it. It actually detracts not adds to the game. This is the reason why Expert difficulty is the only true way to play Thief, ludonarrative dissonance not allowed.

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#35 uninspiredcup  Online
Member since 2013 • 58954 Posts

@texasgoldrush said:
@uninspiredcup said:
@texasgoldrush said:

@uninspiredcup: Too bad you can't kill children in Bethesda games, not without a mod.

Although immersive sims however DO have ludonarrative dissonance problems. That is one of the genre's weaknesses. BOTW actually avoids this, you cannot really hurt townspeople for example, as that would be outside Link's character.

The thing that's interesting about that is that the adaptation dlc came much later. Bethesda seem to have predicated some sick bastard would go on a murdering spree and programmed the kids to respond with "my parents are dead please adopt me".

Bioware wouldn't let you do that, at all.

Bioware lately has more established characters however, and if you give these characters certain choices, they would be acting out of character, therefore ludonarrative dissonance. I have major issues with Renegade Shepard in ME1 and ME2 acting out of the logic of his position, it doesn't need to get worse. And not every franchise needs to be an immersive sim, sometimes being a partial one, like Andromeda will be, will work.

Ludonarrative dissonance is a problem in immersive sims, for example, Adam Jansen killing innocent people. Completely out of his characterization, but you can do it. It actually detracts not adds to the game. This is the reason why Expert difficulty is the only true way to play Thief, ludonarrative dissonance not allowed.

Oddly with Halflife, killing people off (scientists) when you are supposedly the hero was more immersive and interesting than being restricted to not blowing their heads off in Halflife 2. Having someone turn into an invulnerable brick instantly pulls you out the immersion and would gander the naughty "haw haw we are messing up the intended plot" was a novel concept for a FPS, which didn't really have that level of interaction before Halflife.

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#36 waahahah
Member since 2014 • 2462 Posts

@deadline-zero0 said:

japanese desv take inspiration from western all the time.

From software admited to taking inspiration from ultimate underworld for king's field and dark souls

RE7 was clearly inspired for the popular first person horror games that amnesia popularized years ago

all the current open world japanese games like mgs5, ff xv and zelda admited to taking Skyrim's open world as the base

The idea though is games are influenced from a shared influence, zelda has very little to do with skyrim, except for its open world.. and even then zelda is really unique and sets itself apart by focusing mainly on different mechanics and the meat of the game plays very different.

RE7 was successful because it went back to its horror roots in first person, and mechanically it plays like an action horror game. Amnesia isn't the first fps horror game... and didn't have any way to fight back. The only thing that is similar is FPS and horror. All that amnesia did for the devs was show there is a market still for horror. Because the industry one day decided no one wanted horror...

Texas seems to love to undermine Japanese devs always sighting ultima for their success. At this point we've eclipsed ultima by quite a bit, and any many of the stables of RPGs. I also don't remember developers siting skyrim as inspiration for their open world games. Its not a new concept and if anything, they sited it as a financial viability...

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#37  Edited By waahahah
Member since 2014 • 2462 Posts

@texasgoldrush said:

@waahahah: Ummmm.....The Civil War quests? Dawnguard? There are some moments where choice does affect the game in Skyrim.

Also Thief (the first two at least) does NOT have choices that affect the story. You have one goal, but multiple ways to achieve it. yet its an immersive sim. Not every requirement listed on Giant Bomb has to be fulfilled.

Am I a big fan of Skyrim? No. I think its an overrated game where a massive amount of gamers are willing to ignore flaws that other games get criticized for. But it is still very much an immersive sim, just not in the way I wanted it to be. There is still a ton of system based rules and emergent gameplay, as well as player freedom.

Origin Systems are pioneers for translating the D&D experience into video gaming. yes they were influenced by table top gaming, but in the video game medium, they are pioneers that influenced the industry. Its spinoff studio still is very much influential in modern gaming. And really, its the main Ultima series that are the first immersive sims in my eyes, Underworld is just the first 3d first person one.

Breath of the Wild very much is an immersive Sim, and more so than most Western games.

Dude, they don't own the concepts they 'pioneered'. Gaming from its get go was about simulation of something. The immersive sim isn't a real genre they own. Zelda is its own thin, if we had to label it its a survival adventure sandbox.

Try to compare thief/deus ex to BOTW. The comparison generally ends at immersive world with open ended gameplay.

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#38  Edited By DEadliNE-Zero0
Member since 2014 • 6607 Posts

@waahahah said:
@deadline-zero0 said:

japanese desv take inspiration from western all the time.

From software admited to taking inspiration from ultimate underworld for king's field and dark souls

RE7 was clearly inspired for the popular first person horror games that amnesia popularized years ago

all the current open world japanese games like mgs5, ff xv and zelda admited to taking Skyrim's open world as the base

The idea though is games are influenced from a shared influence, zelda has very little to do with skyrim, except for its open world.. and even then zelda is really unique and sets itself apart by focusing mainly on different mechanics and the meat of the game plays very different.

Yeah, that's what i said. Skyrim's massive sucess, alongside gta, is why every damm AAA game is open world now. Previous series, like Zelda, wen full OW now because of those 2 games.

RE7 was successful because it went back to its horror roots in first person, and mechanically it plays like an action horror game. Amnesia isn't the first fps horror game... and didn't have any way to fight back. The only thing that is similar is FPS and horror. All that amnesia did for the devs was show there is a market still for horror. Because the industry one day decided no one wanted horror...

Again, my point is that the change is perspective comes from western influences. JP devs NEVER make first person games. Amnesia POPULARIZED horror games again. SOMA, Outlast, Alien Isolation. They all come from that game in the beginning. Not directly copying it. RE7 comes from alll those games.

Texas seems to love to undermine Japanese devs always sighting ultima for their success. At this point we've eclipsed ultima by quite a bit, and any many of the stables of RPGs. I also don't remember developers siting skyrim as inspiration for their open world games. Its not a new concept and if anything, they sited it as a financial viability...

i don't care about texas. i'm just saying that jp devs look to western trends all the time.

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#39 waahahah
Member since 2014 • 2462 Posts

@deadline-zero0 said:

i don't care about texas. i'm just saying that jp devs look to western trends all the time.

Taking influence, goes both ways most of the time. Everyone is progressing gaming in their own unique way. Zelda is a completley new take on open world. If it took any influence from skyrim, like real inspiration its probably that that skyrim looked so pertty and someone at nintendo said, we can do better. And better they did.

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#40 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 14899 Posts
@waahahah said:
@texasgoldrush said:

@waahahah: Ummmm.....The Civil War quests? Dawnguard? There are some moments where choice does affect the game in Skyrim.

Also Thief (the first two at least) does NOT have choices that affect the story. You have one goal, but multiple ways to achieve it. yet its an immersive sim. Not every requirement listed on Giant Bomb has to be fulfilled.

Am I a big fan of Skyrim? No. I think its an overrated game where a massive amount of gamers are willing to ignore flaws that other games get criticized for. But it is still very much an immersive sim, just not in the way I wanted it to be. There is still a ton of system based rules and emergent gameplay, as well as player freedom.

Origin Systems are pioneers for translating the D&D experience into video gaming. yes they were influenced by table top gaming, but in the video game medium, they are pioneers that influenced the industry. Its spinoff studio still is very much influential in modern gaming. And really, its the main Ultima series that are the first immersive sims in my eyes, Underworld is just the first 3d first person one.

Breath of the Wild very much is an immersive Sim, and more so than most Western games.

Dude, they don't own the concepts they 'pioneered'. Gaming from its get go was about simulation of something. The immersive sim isn't a real genre they own. There is overlap but the reality is the influence that ultima and looking glass had is fairly thing. Zelda is its own thing, if we had to label it its a survival adventure sandbox.

Try to compare thief/deus ex to BOTW. The comparison generally ends at immersive world with open ended gameplay.

Thief and Deus Ex and System Shock and Ultima Underworld are all different from each other. That doesn't make them not all immersive sims.

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#41  Edited By waahahah
Member since 2014 • 2462 Posts

@texasgoldrush said:

Thief and Deus Ex and System Shock and Ultima Underworld are all different from each other. That doesn't make them not all immersive sims.

You're basically saying they're immersive there for an immersive sim. Not to mention how loosely defined it is, since it seems the defining characteristics don't all need to be satisfied to be an immersive sim, or can be pretty thin and not really the main focus of a game.

They were more technical achievers, being the first to do something better than what came before it. But they didn't pioneer the concepts.

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#42  Edited By texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 14899 Posts

@waahahah said:
@texasgoldrush said:

Thief and Deus Ex and System Shock and Ultima Underworld are all different from each other. That doesn't make them not all immersive sims.

You're basically saying they're immersive there for an immersive sim. Not to mention how loosely defined it is, since it seems the defining characteristics don't all need to be satisfied to be an immersive sim, or can be pretty thin and not really the main focus of a game.

They were more technical achievers, being the first to do something better than what came before it. But they didn't pioneer the concepts.

No I am basically saying that if they all follow the model what define the genre, they are that, despite the differences.

Hell, adventure games with no combat can be immersive sims.....like Gone Home, SOMA, and Firewatch.

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#43 waahahah
Member since 2014 • 2462 Posts

@texasgoldrush said:

No I am basically saying that if they all follow the model what define the genre, they are that, despite the differences.

Hell, adventure games with no combat can be immersive sims.....like Gone Home, SOMA, and Firewatch.

But is not a genre. Mechanics define a genre, the concept of "immersive sim" is how well those mechanics create a believable simulation. Video games have always been about driving to more immersive / believable simulation. Looking glass pioneered the first tech and stated what it believed needed to be in the game. Games were defined well before hand by physics, rules, and emergent play. These concepts predate video games.

I mean by definition we can't call it a genre if it doesn't have to follow its same rules, like SOMA/Firewatch have no interactive gameplay and the narrative is pretty set in stone. Or games like skryim are entirely about open ended gameplay with only 1 branching path (I forgot about that, I never really played the main story...). Or deus ex having actual branching narative with open ended gameplay and actually being a game of this "genre". Basically the only thing these games have in common is the level of immersion they offer. If a game like mass effect can be considered a shooter with SOME RPG mechanics, same with bioshock... than what do you consider zelda which has minor elements in interactive narrative and open ended gameplay, but a heavy dose of exploration and resource management.

Basically the term "immersive sim" is a marketing term so you'll enjoy smelling their farts more, and it caught on in a bad way.

What did zelda do thats different that no other game really does? What is probably the direct inspiration for the game? Its probably standing at the bottom of a mountain and looking up and saying holy shit. Then some time after climbing up that mounting... standing atop it looking down and saying holy shit.

I mean I have to take as step back, you seem to believe that a weather mechanic in zelda is a derivative of ultima's.. you need to take a step outside and check out the original feature where these weather mechanics actually derive from.

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#44 Thunderdrone
Member since 2009 • 7154 Posts

@mems_1224 said:

Skyrim is better

I absolutely adore Skyrim.

But shockingly enough, no its not a better open world game!

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#45  Edited By Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 15569 Posts

BOTW is nothing like system shock or thief, and it isn't even slightly a simulator, what the **** is this shit. Having general survival and resource gathering mechanics doesn't suddenly make you a "sim" anything. BOTW is very much rooted in wacky physics interactions, simple but varied combat, and silly interactions with the world that are tons of fun and indeed often immersive, but don't fall anywhere in the realm of believe-ability.

Next you'll tell me Infinity Ward went to the school of Square-Enix design, because they added experience and progression systems to Call of Duty.

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#46 funsohng
Member since 2005 • 29976 Posts

@mems_1224 said:

Skyrim is better

Skyrim is the worst piece of shit I spent 170 hours on.

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#47  Edited By texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 14899 Posts

@Vaasman said:

BOTW is nothing like system shock or thief, and it isn't even slightly a simulator, what the **** is this shit. Having general survival and resource gathering mechanics doesn't suddenly make you a "sim" anything. BOTW is very much rooted in wacky physics interactions, simple but varied combat, and silly interactions with the world that are tons of fun and indeed often immersive, but don't fall anywhere in the realm of believe-ability.

Next you'll tell me Infinity Ward went to the school of Square-Enix design, because they added experience and progression systems to Call of Duty.

No, its an immersive sim. The game simply out relies on system based gameplay and the combination of these systems create an emergent gameplay experience. This is what games like Ultima Underworld, System Shock, and Thief pioneered. BOTW follows this perfectly.

Lets go over the list that Giant Bomb made about the genre and apply it to BOTW, being aware that a game does not have to meet all these conditions (as Thief does not for example).

Immersion in an elaborate and believable game world: Yep, more so than usual. can put most other immersive sims to shame.

Simulation: physics and AI are used to create believable behavior in objects and characters which the player can freely interact with, resulting in 'emergent gameplay': Ummmm....yep. Big YEP

First person perspective so as to truly look through the eyes of the protagonist: Ok, its third person, so it fails this check.

Game design that allows for multiple paths and/or multiple solutions in every situation: Unlike the rest of the series, BOTW bucks the trend and fulfills this aspect wonderfully.

A systemic game world that keeps track of the player's actions, which can affect the "whole" game: Yep, new quests open up based on what you do, and what you do and don't do affect the endgame

Open-ended/non-linear game design with an emphasis on choice and consequence: Yep, you can play the divine beasts in any order, go wherever you want, and even fight the final boss right away. Even has Deus Ex beat here.

Full control over the player's character in every situation: Yep, and very little of the game is a set piece, really, only divine beast approaches are more scripted.

A world with consistent rules that the player can interact with: Best in the business here.

Narrative that is not always forced on the player, but instead can be told through exploration and gameplay at that players will: Check here as well, you have find the cutscenes, they aren't just delivered to you.

No fail states, beyond player death: As far as I know, check.

Out of all the aspects Giant Bomb listed, BOTW only misses one, while in others, its the best right now.

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#48 Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 15569 Posts

@texasgoldrush said:
@Vaasman said:

BOTW is nothing like system shock or thief, and it isn't even slightly a simulator, what the **** is this shit. Having general survival and resource gathering mechanics doesn't suddenly make you a "sim" anything. BOTW is very much rooted in wacky physics interactions, simple but varied combat, and silly interactions with the world that are tons of fun and indeed often immersive, but don't fall anywhere in the realm of believe-ability.

Next you'll tell me Infinity Ward went to the school of Square-Enix design, because they added experience and progression systems to Call of Duty.

No, its an immersive sim. The game simply out relies on system based gameplay and the combination of these systems create an emergent gameplay experience. This is what games like Ultima Underworld, System Shock, and Thief pioneered. BOTW follows this perfectly.

Lets go over the list that Giant Bomb made about the genre and apply it to BOTW, being aware that a game does not have to meet all these conditions (as Thief does not for example).

Immersion in an elaborate and believable game world: Yep, more so than usual. can put most other immersive sims to shame.

But it's not immersive because it "simulates" anything. It's immersive because the attention to detail and interactivity sell you on what is happening. It's not simulation just because a game offers unique interaction with the world. If that were the case you could basically call a million games simulation. Oblivion is not simulation just because the AI started to have a routine to their day that you could disrupt.

Simulation: physics and AI are used to create believable behavior in objects and characters which the player can freely interact with, resulting in 'emergent gameplay': Ummmm....yep. Big YEP

If this were a simulation, you would only be able to carry what a normal person could reasonably carry, and you'd only fall 10 feet before dying. Instead your inventory is unlimited with regards to components. As for physics and AI, you literally have shield surfing, handheld paragliding, and jumping 10 feet off a horse into the air to slow-mo bow attack with a bow. This is fun, but it isn't simulation. These mechanics are outside the realm of plausibility and typically don't fit into the rest of what you've been told about the world. Link can only jump about 3 feet in the air when he isn't riding a horse, and no one else in the game uses a paraglider to get around.

First person perspective so as to truly look through the eyes of the protagonist: Ok, its third person, so it fails this check.

Yes indeed it does, and I'd like to further push this point by saying that you have no control over the character's appearance outside of clothing options. This is effective for the purpose of making Link a distinct and emotive character, but it robs the factor of self-insertion from the game entirely.

Game design that allows for multiple paths and/or multiple solutions in every situation: Unlike the rest of the series, BOTW bucks the trend and fulfills this aspect wonderfully.

I fail to understand how this makes anything an "immersive simulation." Is DnD an "immersive simulation" because my players decide to knock down the entire building rather than solving the puzzles inside? I somehow doubt it. It's certainly fun but by the vagueness of the logic you could call nearly all games "immersive sims" by checking this point, and indeed the whole list, off. Crysis, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Far Cry, Deus Ex, Dark Souls. The list is endless really. And I'd like to also point out this mainly applies to combat and exploration, very very few puzzles have more than one solution.

A systemic game world that keeps track of the player's actions, which can affect the "whole" game: Yep, new quests open up based on what you do, and what you do and don't do affect the endgame

This is true of this game and it is impressive, but again that generally is true of many games. In Skyrim the NPC's take note of whether or not you've done certain side quests. In Dark Souls NPC's change dialogue and location based on how far you are in the game. This doesn't make these "simulation" by any reasonable standard.

Open-ended/non-linear game design with an emphasis on choice and consequence: Yep, you can play the divine beasts in any order, go wherever you want, and even fight the final boss right away. Even has Deus Ex beat here.

Not only is choice/consequence largely independent from immersion or simulation, but BOTW mainly allows choice in direction more than anything else. You aren't dictating the outcome of most quests, you are simply playing through them in the paces you desire.

Full control over the player's character in every situation: Yep, and very little of the game is a set piece, really, only divine beast approaches are more scripted.

I mean the game regularly pulls back for longer and more story driven cutscenes if you do the main questing so this point simply isn't true.

A world with consistent rules that the player can interact with: Best in the business here.

This point basically bleeds into the discussion of physics and interaction, and largely the game is successful on this front. But there are occasional imperfections. NPCs fighting monsters for instance, can't die as far as I've seen, and they nor the monsters ever break there weapons. But again, these rules don't make it a "sim" of any description. Largely what makes the game fun is how ridiculous and satisfying it is to pull off the less plausible of any outcome.

Narrative that is not always forced on the player, but instead can be told through exploration and gameplay at that players will: Check here as well, you have find the cutscenes, they aren't just delivered to you.

Yet another point that could be applied to many games and has very little bearing on Zelda's classification or inspirations.

No fail states, beyond player death: As far as I know, check.

There are at least a few shrines you have to reset when you **** them up. One including lighting five torches on a cube, but you can douse all the torches. But I'd like to also point out that, yet again, this can be applied to a zillion games that wouldn't come close to the ideal of simulation. Is mario a simulation because you only fail by dying?

Out of all the aspects Giant Bomb listed, BOTW only misses one, while in others, its the best right now.

To further argue this incredibly pedantic point that has no bearing on the actual quality or entertainment value of any of the games involved, I'd like to point out that this list is NOT anything made by Giantbomb in any official fashion. Their wikipedia-esque style of information management is almost entirely handled by their fanbase. Nothing about the linked point holds any more weight than me who would clearly deny that this game has any more than an extremely vague connection to titles like System Shock or Thief, or really most of the games on the provided list.

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#49 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 14899 Posts

@Vaasman: Doesn't make it less true as much of the aspects of the immersive sim are agreed by the gaming community at large as well as game developers.

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#50  Edited By texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 14899 Posts

@Thunderdrone said:
@mems_1224 said:

Skyrim is better

I absolutely adore Skyrim.

But shockingly enough, no its not a better open world game!

This.....BOTW makes Bethesda games look like amateur hours. The only open world immersive sim that can compare is Fallout New Vegas.