@KillzoneSnake: I think your missing the point mate. Simply playing as a female means very little in the grand scheme of things. But its true, this game being good is all that matters.
Is Horizon Zero Dawn the most subtle feminist AAA first party title to date?
How pathetic. Now I'm sure I wouldn't hit a dog in da azz with this crap. lolol :P
@musalala said:
@mems_1224: OP stated it was subtle, Im pointing out some are saying its not..thats all,
OP is kinda dumb though. This is still the team that made the most heavy handed space nazis ever. I have my doubts about the story because everything they've shown so far has looked like hot garbage but reviewers i generally trust are saying its decent so we'll see.
@mems_1224 said:
@musalala said:
@mems_1224: OP stated it was subtle, Im pointing out some are saying its not..thats all,
OP is kinda dumb though. This is still the team that made the most heavy handed space nazis ever. I have my doubts about the story because everything they've shown so far has looked like hot garbage but reviewers i generally trust are saying its decent so we'll see.
Honestly for me I just want to kill Giant mechanical dinosaur robots that all....the videos showing the dialog convinced me the story will be forgettable and somewhat cringy. Im getting a farcry 3 & 4 vibe form this game which isn't a bad thing
@mikeross said:
@thepclovingguy said:
@dakur said:
It's nice to see strong female characters and diversity in a game that doesn't feel artificially pushed. GG did a good job designing the character and world and it's good that a female is the protagonist of the next big AAA franchise and not because of her bouncy boobs. Anyways I can't help but laugh at all the drama that these topics provoke in the west. In Japan strong female characters are so normal as well as strong teen characters which the west is still struggling with. It seems to me Japan is a much more mature culture with these topics.
Japan gaming culture being mature????? Are you fucking kidding me? The Japaneses are the worst offenders when it comes to unproportional body shapes in video game. They are obsessed with little girls, you could almost call it pedophilia.
Lucky I refreshed and was able to read the reply because I was about to post the same thing.
But is not like I hate Japan's approach either, in fact, I have come to appreciate it even more nowadays now that the current western trend is to make women look like men. Shit is getting stale fast with the manly mary sues but I'm glad I can always find refugee in Japanese games. They aren't afraid of female sexuality like the modern manlets of the West.
Very relevant link: https://my.mixtape.moe/fgcxhr.webm
This sent Gaf into a frenzy a while back and now some even want to boycott the game. haha
And that's why I claim Japan is more mature. They can perfectly well fit liking women's or men's physical qualities and at the same time make strong female characters. One doesn't substitute the other or substract from the other or has to be excluded by the other. For me that's a culture that is mostly all over political correct BS and has transcended to really identify what's relevant. I don't expect westerners to understand it though since they are trapped by the ridiculous drama behind identity politics.
@sts106mat said:
@dakur said:
@mikeross said:
@thepclovingguy said:
@dakur said:
It's nice to see strong female characters and diversity in a game that doesn't feel artificially pushed. GG did a good job designing the character and world and it's good that a female is the protagonist of the next big AAA franchise and not because of her bouncy boobs. Anyways I can't help but laugh at all the drama that these topics provoke in the west. In Japan strong female characters are so normal as well as strong teen characters which the west is still struggling with. It seems to me Japan is a much more mature culture with these topics.
Japan gaming culture being mature????? Are you fucking kidding me? The Japaneses are the worst offenders when it comes to unproportional body shapes in video game. They are obsessed with little girls, you could almost call it pedophilia.
Lucky I refreshed and was able to read the reply because I was about to post the same thing.
But is not like I hate Japan's approach either, in fact, I have come to appreciate it even more nowadays now that the current western trend is to make women look like men. Shit is getting stale fast with the manly mary sues but I'm glad I can always find refugee in Japanese games. They aren't afraid of female sexuality like the modern manlets of the West.
Very relevant link: https://my.mixtape.moe/fgcxhr.webm
This sent Gaf into a frenzy a while back and now some even want to boycott the game. haha
And that's why I claim Japan is more mature. They can perfectly well fit liking women's or men's physical qualities and at the same time make strong female characters. One doesn't substitute the other or substract from the other or has to be excluded by the other. For me that's a culture that is mostly all over political correct BS and has transcended to really identify what's relevant. I don't expect westerners to understand it though since they are trapped by the ridiculous drama behind identity politics.
so anime peodo-porn is relevant?
Maturity of not making sex such a big deal afterall. It makes me laugh how the west thinks violence is so normal but sex is somehow the devil. At least Japan doesn't care about so much puritan crap.
@davillain- said:
The world doesn't give a fucks about "SJW", that's just a thing in the USA. People all over the world laugh at you for keeping that crappy term alive and it shows.
pretty much this. Even though I heard at some places in England they are also intoxicating the environment.
Personally I don't care what I play. Whether I'm a young white man or a old green orc woman doesn't matter to me at all. However I do welcome some variety and white male are without a doubt in the majority right now.
Also, really, Aloy doesn't even come close to Velvet and Milla from the tales series, Lara Croft or Jodie from Beyond two souls. She barely even matches Jade
@ArchoNils2 said:
pretty much this. Even though I heard at some places in England they are also intoxicating the environment.
Personally I don't care what I play. Whether I'm a young white man or a old green orc woman doesn't matter to me at all. However I do welcome some variety and white male are without a doubt in the majority right now.
Also, really, Aloy doesn't even come close to Velvet and Milla from the tales series, Lara Croft or Jodie from Beyond two souls. She barely even matches Jade
Aloy as a female didn't even bother me since the reveal of Zero Dawn to the world. She has that dreadlocks hair going for her is what I like about her. At first, I thought she was Ginger Woman but nevertheless, her race whatever never bothers me and I'm always been diversity supporter and I'm not White.
Overall it's just a damn game, a game like Zero Dawn I really want to play that very badly cause I like the setting & era.
@sts106mat said:
@davillain- said:
@sts106mat said:
Lol Wut? So you personally are ok with anime peado-porn then?
That's not what he said and you know it!
he dodged the question (several times).......why?
Maybe because he doesn't need to explain it to you? Let it go.
@mems_1224 said:
@musalala said:
@mems_1224: OP stated it was subtle, Im pointing out some are saying its not..thats all,
OP is kinda dumb though. This is still the team that made the most heavy handed space nazis ever. I have my doubts about the story because everything they've shown so far has looked like hot garbage but reviewers i generally trust are saying its decent so we'll see.
The reviewers you trust aka Jeff, isn't saying its "decent", but its fucking amazing. I don't even remember the last time i've seen him so excited about a game.
@silversix_ said:
@mems_1224 said:
@musalala said:
@mems_1224: OP stated it was subtle, Im pointing out some are saying its not..thats all,
OP is kinda dumb though. This is still the team that made the most heavy handed space nazis ever. I have my doubts about the story because everything they've shown so far has looked like hot garbage but reviewers i generally trust are saying its decent so we'll see.
The reviewers you trust aka Jeff, isn't saying its "decent", but its fucking amazing. I don't even remember the last time i've seen him so excited about a game.
eh, he also liked Halo 5's story though so I don't fully trust Jeff
@iandizion713 said:
@22Toothpicks: Feminist strive for an egalitarian society. This is a game they and everyone else can respect. Something this industry is in much need of. Its good to see things changing for the good.
A movement is useless if its objective is achieved. Women are equal in the U.S., thus feminism is meaningless in the U.S.A.
Having a strong female protagonist doesnt make something feminist. It means it has a strong female protagonist. Please dont bring that stuff further into video games.
One Anita Sarkeesian is already too many.
@sts106mat said:
@davillain- said:
@sts106mat said:
Lol Wut? So you personally are ok with anime peado-porn then?
That's not what he said and you know it!
he dodged the question (several times).......why?
I'm not dodging anything but it seems you have trouble understanding. Sex shouldn't be such a big deal like the west makes it out to be is what I said. I'm against pedophilia but not against any fictional or drawn depiction of sex. Suddenly making an animation of a kid getting their head blown off on a war is perfectly ok but not a drawing of kids having sex? This is the type of ridiculous double and third standards the west falls on but Japan doesn't give a shit. Many people are pedophiles even if they don't want it so might as well give them a mean to calm down their urges with drawings before they go out and look for them elsewhere. Besides the pedophile term technically applies to people who like childs below 12 years of age or something like that. From 12 on the term varies for important reasons since biology kicks in and people are ready to reproduce so it's not a disease to be attracted to a sexually mature person. How do you know exactly what age an anime character is? Should society start regulating fictional characters? And from which moral superior stance the west talks about sexualizing young people? In the west you have all these disney stars which are supposed to be children entertainment but that are highly sexualized and, what's worse, they end up consumed by drugs and the banality of super stardom. So the west not only sexualizes their children for entertainment purposes but also fucks up their lives in the process. Might as well juts use drawings like Japan and stop with all the fake drama.
@sts106mat said:
@dakur said:
@sts106mat said:
@davillain- said:
That's not what he said and you know it!
he dodged the question (several times).......why?
I'm not dodging anything but it seems you have trouble understanding. Sex shouldn't be such a big deal like the west makes it out to be is what I said. I'm against pedophilia but not against any fictional or drawn depiction of sex.
Suddenly making an animation of a kid getting their head blown off on a war is perfectly ok but not a drawing of kids having sex?
This is the type of ridiculous double and third standards the west falls on but Japan doesn't give a shit. Many people are pedophiles even if they don't want it so might as well give them a mean to calm down their urges with drawings before they go out and look for them elsewhere. Besides the pedophile term technically applies to people who like childs below 12 years of age or something like that. From 12 on the term varies for important reasons since biology kicks in and people are ready to reproduce so it's not a disease to be attracted to a sexually mature person. How do you know exactly what age an anime character is? Should society start regulating fictional characters? And from which moral superior stance the west talks about sexualizing young people? In the west you have all these disney stars which are supposed to be children entertainment but that are highly sexualized and, what's worse, they end up consumed by drugs and the banality of super stardom. So the west not only sexualizes their children for entertainment purposes but also fucks up their lives in the process. Might as well juts use drawings like Japan and stop with all the fake drama.
There is so much wrong in there, i don't know where to start.
You have zero proof that allowing people to see fictional or drawn depictions of peadophilia "calms down their urges" for all you know, it actively encourages it. hell it certainly seems to be trying to normalize it.
According to this article, abuse is actually on the increase in japan:-
The most alarming thing here then (obviously), is that somehow the portrayal of children as sex objects seems to have become OK in Japan. And, as animated child abuse becomes increasingly more common there, the idea that real children can become objectified sexually has bled its way into mainstream Japanese society. Junior Idol models – child models in bikinis, basically, the image below is about the tamest one I can find – can be as young as eight years old and feature in DVDs and picture books, often wearing lingerie or swimsuits.
Speaking to Shihoko again, I learned that all this is perfectly legal under Japan's clumsy child pornography laws. "The Junior Idol concept isn't that old. Our child pornography law, which is very narrow and doesn't really get enforced, was only introduced 13 years ago. Junior Idol came out just after the law was passed that said you couldn't show images of naked children, and the private parts aren't shown, but the children are basically naked. You can almost see everything because the clothes are so tiny, but it's not considered child porn, even though it's extremely sexual."
It is a well known fact (and my article backs it up) that the characters are depicted as school kids / teenagers.
I have no idea what highly sexualised disney stars you are referring to, please enlighten us.
The rates of child abuse in Japan pale in comparison to the US and the increase in rate has more to do with toughening laws than an actual increase
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2015/09/26/editorials/child-abuse-rate-record-high/#.WK2YR58o9hE
In Japan 14 children die from abuse in 2015
https://www.childhelp.org/child-abuse-statistics/
In the US it's 3-4 children per day
Highly sexualized Disney stars like Britney Spears, Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber, etc. There's a big rate of those children that end up with their lives ruined because the entertainment industry squishes money out of them and then throws them to the garbage when they stop making money (not to mention all the sexual abuse going on on the entertainment industry in the US). In that sense the west is abusing children in a worst way because they're using them, real children, not only as sex objects to sell a product but also as a disposable currency.
@sts106mat said:
@dakur said:
@sts106mat said:
@dakur said:
@sts106mat said:
he dodged the question (several times).......why?
I'm not dodging anything but it seems you have trouble understanding. Sex shouldn't be such a big deal like the west makes it out to be is what I said. I'm against pedophilia but not against any fictional or drawn depiction of sex.
Suddenly making an animation of a kid getting their head blown off on a war is perfectly ok but not a drawing of kids having sex?
This is the type of ridiculous double and third standards the west falls on but Japan doesn't give a shit. Many people are pedophiles even if they don't want it so might as well give them a mean to calm down their urges with drawings before they go out and look for them elsewhere. Besides the pedophile term technically applies to people who like childs below 12 years of age or something like that. From 12 on the term varies for important reasons since biology kicks in and people are ready to reproduce so it's not a disease to be attracted to a sexually mature person. How do you know exactly what age an anime character is? Should society start regulating fictional characters? And from which moral superior stance the west talks about sexualizing young people? In the west you have all these disney stars which are supposed to be children entertainment but that are highly sexualized and, what's worse, they end up consumed by drugs and the banality of super stardom. So the west not only sexualizes their children for entertainment purposes but also fucks up their lives in the process. Might as well juts use drawings like Japan and stop with all the fake drama.
There is so much wrong in there, i don't know where to start.
You have zero proof that allowing people to see fictional or drawn depictions of peadophilia "calms down their urges" for all you know, it actively encourages it. hell it certainly seems to be trying to normalize it.
According to this article, abuse is actually on the increase in japan:-
The most alarming thing here then (obviously), is that somehow the portrayal of children as sex objects seems to have become OK in Japan. And, as animated child abuse becomes increasingly more common there, the idea that real children can become objectified sexually has bled its way into mainstream Japanese society. Junior Idol models – child models in bikinis, basically, the image below is about the tamest one I can find – can be as young as eight years old and feature in DVDs and picture books, often wearing lingerie or swimsuits.
Speaking to Shihoko again, I learned that all this is perfectly legal under Japan's clumsy child pornography laws. "The Junior Idol concept isn't that old. Our child pornography law, which is very narrow and doesn't really get enforced, was only introduced 13 years ago. Junior Idol came out just after the law was passed that said you couldn't show images of naked children, and the private parts aren't shown, but the children are basically naked. You can almost see everything because the clothes are so tiny, but it's not considered child porn, even though it's extremely sexual."
It is a well known fact (and my article backs it up) that the characters are depicted as school kids / teenagers.
I have no idea what highly sexualised disney stars you are referring to, please enlighten us.
The rates of child abuse in Japan pale in comparison to the US and the increase in rate has more to do with toughening laws than an actual increase
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2015/09/26/editorials/child-abuse-rate-record-high/#.WK2YR58o9hE
In Japan 14 children die from abuse in 2015
https://www.childhelp.org/child-abuse-statistics/
In the US it's 3-4 children per day
Highly sexualized Disney stars like Britney Spears, Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber, etc. There's a big rate of those children that end up with their lives ruined because the entertainment industry squishes money out of them and then throws them to the garbage when they stop making money (not to mention all the sexual abuse going on on the entertainment industry in the US). In that sense the west is abusing children in a worst way because they're using them, real children, not only as sex objects to sell a product but also as a disposable currency.
No argument about the actual rates of abuse in US etc, other than to say we don't know how much goes unreported. those figures are alarming and terrible.
However, people knowing that child abuse is wrong =/= it not happening.
the ONLY issues i have with what you are saying is that japan shouldn't be questioned / called out over it normalization / trivialisation of it and also that westerners cannot comprehend why it should be considered ok. that shit will never fly here in the UK and i am glad of that.
You have also heavily edited my post (again) and ignored the other points i raised.....why?
Those three people you named are no longer disney stars. I do not believe they were at all sexualised by Disney either. Are you are actually trying to paint the biggest childrens entertainment company in the world as encouraging peodophilia? really? Shame on you!
Sure some of those kids have gone off the rails, there are a however of course others who did not lose the plot.
As i already demonstrated, the japanese industry is now sexualising young child models as "idols" and sex objects, you ignored this point.
I'm not saying Japan shouldn't be questioned but I think Japan handles the issue of abuse and sex in general in a much better and mature way than the west. While in the west they spent so much time arguing how to be politically correct Japan just doesn't give a shit about that and allows depictions of sex with children just because **** off whoever gets offended by a drawing. Meanwhile in the US abuse is rampant which is a testament that stuff like drawings of children having sex have little to do with the abuse rates themselves. Yeah of course Japan has stuff to get better at too but I think most of the discussions in the west of identity politics, race, abuse, sexism, etc are soooooo superficial and they only serve to cover up the real problems. Whatever Japan is doing they have one of the industrialized nations with less abuse, crime, etc.
And these child artists (like Bieber or Cyrus) are widely known to have a high rate of failure in life after becoming adults. Mostly it's because they couldn't handle fame and all that came with it at such young ages but behind all these childs with ruined lives there is a whole industry ran by adults making money out of them. I'm not familiar with the japanese idol industry or whatever but I hardly think it is as life-destroying as the american child entertainment industry although I could be wrong.
I think it was pretty obvious there was a discussion like "Lara Croft, popular, Katniss, too, we need something like that, people want strong female heroes with bows". That's not subtle, nor noble, that's just marketing.
This isn't the first time a girl has been the lead character, wont be the last.
She's not a spectacular character but the problem is that the SJW's are latching onto her trying to make her the poster girl of girls in games.
So instead of letting people enjoy a game that just happens to have a girl as the lead it's being made into something it's not and ultimately that's going to hurt the franchise.
@iandizion713 said:
Its refreshing to have a game welcome the challenge and succeed in implementing such a request.
What challenge?
Can we stop sensationalizing a perfectly normal thing that has been naturally occuring for some 30 years as this huge hurdle that was just surpassed in front of our eyes with the all-encopassing power of feminism?
Little Sarah got a part-time job at Micky D's - "How refreshing, finally someone stood up to the challenge and clawed out the victory from hideous clutches of history."
Get the **** outta here.
@sts106mat said:
You have zero proof that allowing people to see fictional or drawn depictions of peadophilia "calms down their urges" for all you know, it actively encourages it. hell it certainly seems to be trying to normalize it.
The fact that you can't distinct pedophilia from pedophilic disorder and child molestation tells me you're unqualified to even talk about these things.
Much like cartoon violence will not make you a killer, a cartoon sexualized depiction of children will not make you a child molester.
@sts106mat said:
It is NOT normal for grown adults to be sexually excited by children.
I have bad news for you.
What I don't understand is why people feel the need to inject all this political BS directly or indirectly into everything from the developers to the game reviewers/ players. Why can't a game be judge as a game?
@sts106mat said:
Ok, so you and him are happily saying that Japan knows whats relevant.
Will you acknowledge that the japanese haven't banned peado anime materials?
Are you ok with this too? If not, why not say so.
Just saying "he doesn't need to explain it to you" =/= him believing that it is wrong. he has avoided the question, if he answers that "yes it is wrong", then all his other points are irrelevant and his argument falls apart.
Is your stance the same as his that western people simply cannot comprehend why anime peado porn is all ok?
He accuses westerners of being happy with violence, which by extension could be taken to mean violence against children, stoning to death of people or otherwise.
Do you agree with this statement? are you happy to be accused of condoning violence against children?
Do you not think the topic is somehow unfair since it paints japan in a negative light? Would you prefer we ignore it and sweep it under the carpet? why shouldn't we question it?
Do you want to offer an opinion on my questions, or are you as deluded as him and believe that japan should be left alone since they have transcended western culture? If you believe this, then by extension you must also believe that anime peado-porn for want of a better phrase is acceptable.
I'm just gonna try to keep it real and simple cause I don't want to derail this thread even further.
Rather Japan does or do isn't my business, I'm not Japanese so that's not my problem what those guys do. Sexual Animes do come in verity in ways but am I'm against it? Don't really care one way or another, Anime has always been fictional and not real. Yes I like Anime but sexual stuff like Ecchi has always been just for fun, like Kill la Kill for example, it's action, comady, and ecchi for the most parts but fun to watch. Here in the U.S, Sex is something of a mystery to some folks here, cannot comment on why American has against sex over Violence but then again, U.S is getting close to hating Violence after watching The Walking Dead season 7 cause they tone down Violence and it shows.
People need to bare in mind that Anime is fiction, not real, that's the different and if you can tell the differences, then there's nothing wrong with sex in Anime. Also one more thing about in Japan is, the legal age over there is 13 years old, why they wanna do that, I don't know, don't care, not my business.
@sts106mat said:
@dakur said:
@sts106mat said:
@dakur said:
@sts106mat said:
There is so much wrong in there, i don't know where to start.
You have zero proof that allowing people to see fictional or drawn depictions of peadophilia "calms down their urges" for all you know, it actively encourages it. hell it certainly seems to be trying to normalize it.
According to this article, abuse is actually on the increase in japan:-
The most alarming thing here then (obviously), is that somehow the portrayal of children as sex objects seems to have become OK in Japan. And, as animated child abuse becomes increasingly more common there, the idea that real children can become objectified sexually has bled its way into mainstream Japanese society. Junior Idol models – child models in bikinis, basically, the image below is about the tamest one I can find – can be as young as eight years old and feature in DVDs and picture books, often wearing lingerie or swimsuits.
Speaking to Shihoko again, I learned that all this is perfectly legal under Japan's clumsy child pornography laws. "The Junior Idol concept isn't that old. Our child pornography law, which is very narrow and doesn't really get enforced, was only introduced 13 years ago. Junior Idol came out just after the law was passed that said you couldn't show images of naked children, and the private parts aren't shown, but the children are basically naked. You can almost see everything because the clothes are so tiny, but it's not considered child porn, even though it's extremely sexual."
It is a well known fact (and my article backs it up) that the characters are depicted as school kids / teenagers.
I have no idea what highly sexualised disney stars you are referring to, please enlighten us.
The rates of child abuse in Japan pale in comparison to the US and the increase in rate has more to do with toughening laws than an actual increase
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2015/09/26/editorials/child-abuse-rate-record-high/#.WK2YR58o9hE
In Japan 14 children die from abuse in 2015
https://www.childhelp.org/child-abuse-statistics/
In the US it's 3-4 children per day
Highly sexualized Disney stars like Britney Spears, Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber, etc. There's a big rate of those children that end up with their lives ruined because the entertainment industry squishes money out of them and then throws them to the garbage when they stop making money (not to mention all the sexual abuse going on on the entertainment industry in the US). In that sense the west is abusing children in a worst way because they're using them, real children, not only as sex objects to sell a product but also as a disposable currency.
No argument about the actual rates of abuse in US etc, other than to say we don't know how much goes unreported. those figures are alarming and terrible.
However, people knowing that child abuse is wrong =/= it not happening.
the ONLY issues i have with what you are saying is that japan shouldn't be questioned / called out over it normalization / trivialisation of it and also that westerners cannot comprehend why it should be considered ok. that shit will never fly here in the UK and i am glad of that.
You have also heavily edited my post (again) and ignored the other points i raised.....why?
Those three people you named are no longer disney stars. I do not believe they were at all sexualised by Disney either. Are you are actually trying to paint the biggest childrens entertainment company in the world as encouraging peodophilia? really? Shame on you!
Sure some of those kids have gone off the rails, there are a however of course others who did not lose the plot.
As i already demonstrated, the japanese industry is now sexualising young child models as "idols" and sex objects, you ignored this point.
I'm not saying Japan shouldn't be questioned but I think Japan handles the issue of abuse and sex in general in a much better and mature way than the west. While in the west they spent so much time arguing how to be politically correct Japan just doesn't give a shit about that and allows depictions of sex with children just because **** off whoever gets offended by a drawing. Meanwhile in the US abuse is rampant which is a testament that stuff like drawings of children having sex have little to do with the abuse rates themselves. Yeah of course Japan has stuff to get better at too but I think most of the discussions in the west of identity politics, race, abuse, sexism, etc are soooooo superficial and they only serve to cover up the real problems. Whatever Japan is doing they have one of the industrialized nations with less abuse, crime, etc.
And these child artists (like Bieber or Cyrus) are widely known to have a high rate of failure in life after becoming adults. Mostly it's because they couldn't handle fame and all that came with it at such young ages but behind all these childs with ruined lives there is a whole industry ran by adults making money out of them. I'm not familiar with the japanese idol industry or whatever but I hardly think it is as life-destroying as the american child entertainment industry although I could be wrong.
Make up your mind!
you seem to be saying that japan can in fact be questioned, but that their "we don't give a shit attitude" is the panacea to the western problem of child abuse? really?
Also, the article i linked throws a huge question on your idea that japan just handles sex better read here:-
“In Japan, I think men have always been very naive and insecure. They don’t have very good communication skills compared to Japanese women and they have trouble talking to the opposite sex. We think that these men – because they're naive and have difficulty communicating – look to children because they have less experience and men can control them.
“Another reason is because it’s accepted in society. People never question it as a moral issue. We've been accepting this type of abuse against children and abuse against women for a long time. But if you go to the West, paedophiles are sent to jail or treated for their problems. In Japan, people are perfectly happy to say 'Oh, I'm so into teenage girls,' or 'I'm so into junior high school girls' in public."
So if that article is correct and its just accepted as Ok there, your entire argument falls down. Its normal and inherent over there so we in the west should just get over ourselves and sudden;y just approve of child abuse.
Are you now retracting your comments that Walt Disney sexes up child stars?
Lets face it, you have backed yourself up into a corner now over your love of a japanese corporation.
What I am saying is that Japan has also room to improve but definitely not following western standards which are worse like the statistics show. And even if half the abuses in Japan are not reported (which is a pretty ridiculous number) it would still pale in comparison to the US. So Japan must be doing something better. Fact is many many adults are attracted to young people, it's a generalized behavior. How to handle it? I'm inclined to think that outraging over pictures is one of the least helpful behaviors.
All statistics favor Japan's approach, until then...
Also child abuse =/= drawings of sexualized children. This is the ridiculous puritan notion with sex that westerners are incapable of detaching themselves from. It's like saying that a guy who draws somebody shooting someone else is a murderer. Pfft.
@sts106mat said:
@KillzoneSnake said:
2017... gender wars. Who cares if its a man or woman. People playing as Lara Croft back in the 90's and nobody cry you playing as a woman. People are so messed up nowadays.
The concept of shooting arrows at giant robots is pretty dumb even if the game is actually good. Who cares if its a Lara Croft or Solid Snake, all the matters is if the game is good.
Wrong, people were complaining she was over sexualised and labelled gamers as pervs.
Eh, I don't think it has anything about "others" having an equal seat. Has anyone gotten worked up over any Tomb Raider game or Mirror's Edge? I will admit that there aren't many female protagonists but this game seems to be trying to make a statement. I honestly don't think this would have even been brought up 10-15 years ago but it seems like race, sex, gender, and religion are brought up way too much in the news and politics lately. Just my 2 cents and guess what, I'm still cannot wait to play Zero Dawn not because of Aloy, because I like everything what I seen.
@sts106mat said:
@dakur said:
@sts106mat said:
@dakur said:
@sts106mat said:
No argument about the actual rates of abuse in US etc, other than to say we don't know how much goes unreported. those figures are alarming and terrible.
However, people knowing that child abuse is wrong =/= it not happening.
the ONLY issues i have with what you are saying is that japan shouldn't be questioned / called out over it normalization / trivialisation of it and also that westerners cannot comprehend why it should be considered ok. that shit will never fly here in the UK and i am glad of that.
You have also heavily edited my post (again) and ignored the other points i raised.....why?
Those three people you named are no longer disney stars. I do not believe they were at all sexualised by Disney either. Are you are actually trying to paint the biggest childrens entertainment company in the world as encouraging peodophilia? really? Shame on you!
Sure some of those kids have gone off the rails, there are a however of course others who did not lose the plot.
As i already demonstrated, the japanese industry is now sexualising young child models as "idols" and sex objects, you ignored this point.
I'm not saying Japan shouldn't be questioned but I think Japan handles the issue of abuse and sex in general in a much better and mature way than the west. While in the west they spent so much time arguing how to be politically correct Japan just doesn't give a shit about that and allows depictions of sex with children just because **** off whoever gets offended by a drawing. Meanwhile in the US abuse is rampant which is a testament that stuff like drawings of children having sex have little to do with the abuse rates themselves. Yeah of course Japan has stuff to get better at too but I think most of the discussions in the west of identity politics, race, abuse, sexism, etc are soooooo superficial and they only serve to cover up the real problems. Whatever Japan is doing they have one of the industrialized nations with less abuse, crime, etc.
And these child artists (like Bieber or Cyrus) are widely known to have a high rate of failure in life after becoming adults. Mostly it's because they couldn't handle fame and all that came with it at such young ages but behind all these childs with ruined lives there is a whole industry ran by adults making money out of them. I'm not familiar with the japanese idol industry or whatever but I hardly think it is as life-destroying as the american child entertainment industry although I could be wrong.
Make up your mind!
you seem to be saying that japan can in fact be questioned, but that their "we don't give a shit attitude" is the panacea to the western problem of child abuse? really?
Also, the article i linked throws a huge question on your idea that japan just handles sex better read here:-
“In Japan, I think men have always been very naive and insecure. They don’t have very good communication skills compared to Japanese women and they have trouble talking to the opposite sex. We think that these men – because they're naive and have difficulty communicating – look to children because they have less experience and men can control them.
“Another reason is because it’s accepted in society. People never question it as a moral issue. We've been accepting this type of abuse against children and abuse against women for a long time. But if you go to the West, paedophiles are sent to jail or treated for their problems. In Japan, people are perfectly happy to say 'Oh, I'm so into teenage girls,' or 'I'm so into junior high school girls' in public."
So if that article is correct and its just accepted as Ok there, your entire argument falls down. Its normal and inherent over there so we in the west should just get over ourselves and sudden;y just approve of child abuse.
Are you now retracting your comments that Walt Disney sexes up child stars?
Lets face it, you have backed yourself up into a corner now over your love of a japanese corporation.
What I am saying is that Japan has also room to improve but definitely not following western standards which are worse like the statistics show. And even if half the abuses in Japan are not reported (which is a pretty ridiculous number) it would still pale in comparison to the US. So Japan must be doing something better. Fact is many many adults are attracted to young people, it's a generalized behavior. How to handle it? I'm inclined to think that outraging over pictures is one of the least helpful behaviors.
All statistics favor Japan's approach, until then...
Also child abuse =/= drawings of sexualized children. This is the ridiculous puritan notion with sex that westerners are incapable of detaching themselves from. It's like saying that a guy who draws somebody shooting someone else is a murderer. Pfft.
but the statistics don't factor in the fact that (according to that article) some level of child abuse and the sexualisation of children is considered NORMAL behaviour. if the age of consent is 13, that makes a hell of difference for F*** sake, how can you not see that?
never said it was Although i would consider it child abuse if you were to start showing those drawings to children.
I consider also what they do with Disney kids or beauty pageants child abuse but it is also normalized in the US so I guess every nation has some level of normalization of child abuse. The age of consent in Japan is not 13, it might be written as 13 but as with all age of consent laws it is a complex issue and here is a fairly good explanation.
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-age-of-consent-so-low-in-Japan
"These rules makes the de-facto age of consent of Japan at least 18 and can be interpretative as 20 in cases. This makes Japan having the highest age of consent in the developed world along with Turkey and several states in the United States such as California and Florida."
@sts106mat said:
@dakur said:
@sts106mat said:
What I am saying is that Japan has also room to improve but definitely not following western standards which are worse like the statistics show. And even if half the abuses in Japan are not reported (which is a pretty ridiculous number) it would still pale in comparison to the US. So Japan must be doing something better. Fact is many many adults are attracted to young people, it's a generalized behavior. How to handle it? I'm inclined to think that outraging over pictures is one of the least helpful behaviors.
All statistics favor Japan's approach, until then...
Also child abuse =/= drawings of sexualized children. This is the ridiculous puritan notion with sex that westerners are incapable of detaching themselves from. It's like saying that a guy who draws somebody shooting someone else is a murderer. Pfft.
but the statistics don't factor in the fact that (according to that article) some level of child abuse and the sexualisation of children is considered NORMAL behaviour. if the age of consent is 13, that makes a hell of difference for F*** sake, how can you not see that?
never said it was Although i would consider it child abuse if you were to start showing those drawings to children.
I consider also what they do with Disney kids or beauty pageants child abuse but it is also normalized in the US so I guess every nation has some level of normalization of child abuse. The age of consent in Japan is not 13, it might be written as 13 but as with all age of consent laws it is a complex issue and here is a fairly good explanation.
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-age-of-consent-so-low-in-Japan
"These rules makes the de-facto age of consent of Japan at least 18 and can be interpretative as 20 in cases. This makes Japan having the highest age of consent in the developed world along with Turkey and several states in the United States such as California and Florida."
What country do you live in? what is the age of consent there? You have now skipped over the issue of anime depictions of children having sex being legal in japan and are limiting the discussion to child abuse. Beauty pageants are not the same as objectifying the child as a "idol" in the *** sense meaning sex object. I can say that George Clooney is a handsome guy, that doesn't make me gay!
One problem with the article you linked there on Quora - Right at the bottom
"Update: I got some information searching through judicial president online and got the feeling of the necessity of some serious updates. I need to rewrite the entire thing since most of the previous answer were not accurate."
Ok whatev, I don't think we'll agree so let's just agree to disagree. Besides this is already highly off topic for this board.
@defiler said:
Actually, I agree with the fact this game is a feminist AAA title. As for it being subtle about it? Not even close. Apparently, every man in the game is portrayed as either weak or evil. The main antagonist is a white man. Also, the dialogue sprinkled throughout the game is even more misandrist, alluding that men are the downfall of humanity and shouldn't partake in things like science. Also, Alloy outright admits that she never wants to have a male child, only female.
This is definitely a feminist game. Funny how none of the video game journalists never mention the misandry though.
That doesn't sound so subtle at all.
And notice how everyone tiptoes around this comment and pretend it didn't exist. Anyone care to at least verify or authenticate?
@mirgamer said:
@defiler said:
Actually, I agree with the fact this game is a feminist AAA title. As for it being subtle about it? Not even close. Apparently, every man in the game is portrayed as either weak or evil. The main antagonist is a white man. Also, the dialogue sprinkled throughout the game is even more misandrist, alluding that men are the downfall of humanity and shouldn't partake in things like science. Also, Alloy outright admits that she never wants to have a male child, only female.
This is definitely a feminist game. Funny how none of the video game journalists never mention the misandry though.
That doesn't sound so subtle at all.
And notice how everyone tiptoes around this comment and pretend it didn't exist. Anyone care to at least verify or authenticate?
If the poster you quoted would have at least provided a link or something but he didn't so no way to know. I haven't heard anything like that anywhere though so I doubt it and it's probably exaggeration from a questionable source.
Please Log In to post.
Log in to comment