Everything TLOU gets right vs Everything Bioshock gets wrong

Me too. It was my GOTY for me. TLOU was 5th on my list.

It is interesting how you look back at the games you play. Bioshock Infinite kind of left a sour taste for me right after I finished, and it has only gotten worse over time. The opposite is true for The Last of Us. As time goes on I view it more highly every day.

Especially the main female protagonists. Elizabeth was supposed to be this lovable, realistic character who you were supposed to get attached to, and the developers failed miserably at that. At the same time ND attempted something similar in that Joel was becoming attached to Ellie. The difference between the two games is that Bioshock infinite's character felt forced and TLoU's character felt natural to the point that I would consider Ellie (and Joel, too, to be honest), to be the most realistic and well developed character in video game history.

level design, character development, pacing, a world that feels developed and not just a series of interactive museum exhibits, gameplay, hmm what else.

Let's not forget the ghost's out of fucking nowhere, lol.

I think TLOU does just about everything much better than bioshock infinite. Only a small handful of people would disagree with that here. Despite it's initial well received scores that game get's a lot of bashing and for good reason.

@ hoola

TLOU Probably felt natural because movies have been around alot longer and most of her story being prestented that way (in movie format, custscenes) would surely feel natural to people who don't get what makes games unique even when it comes to something delicate like story telling. (interactivity, thats what makes games unique) it was a great story, but it was in the wrong Narrative format.

I understand what you are saying and I agree to an extent, but then HL2 is an example of a game with a well told story with some of the best characters. Ellie and Alyx Vance in my opinion are on the same level, both of which were presented in entirely different ways. TLoU was partially cutscene and partially in-game story telling whereas HL2 was entirely in game story telling. Yet, both had amazingly realistic and lovable characters.

I think it has more to do with the quality of writing than the format that it is presented, but that doesn't mean the format can be bad.

Not watching it, but other than Bioshock having an advantage in that the premise/concept is more unique than what The Last of Us did with it's plot, The Last of Us was a better game. I enjoyed the gunplay in Last of Us more(sans the pistols), I like the ability to break the line of sight, I enjoyed the last part of that game where you are sneaking around that building, and have to deal with all those troops. The scavenging stuff not only worked better(albeit limited compared to what games used to do with that element) in Last of Us, but actually made sense in that game.

That's not to say I didn't find Infinite fun(I like the ability to mix and match powers), but I think the Last of Us is just that much better of a game. I also think the plot is actually well executed. Now had Infinite been that they showed the first time at E3, that would have been more interesting. But Levine never made that game. Oh well.

@ hoola

I never said the format was bad.... I said it was wrong, it was good... But wrong.

Kinda like speaking perfect Italian in China.

Also in the case of valves games I don't think thats in game story telling. I think its just story told in a way the doesn't really yank control away from the player whenever its time for "teh feels" which is cool, doesn't take full advantage of the medium but it doesn't get in its way either.

@ jg4xchamp

"The scavenging stuff not only

worked better(albeit limited compared to what

games used to do with that element) in Last of Us,

but actually made sense in that game."

And yet when you kill enemies with Guns they don't drop any ammo.

And heres one I heard from someone else. The clickers navigate by echolocation (making sound and hearing, not just by hearing). Which means even if you're complete quite and still, they would still be able to hunt you down you know, like a bat, yep, the clickers are Batmen.

Bottom line, TLOU only makes sense when it suits it. And heres something I think you'l find ammusing: int the end, shoot the surgeon in the foot and see what happens.

The Last of Us was the better game but it's not like Bioshock Infinite was bad. Both were very heavily story-driven experiences that put a lot of emphasis on writing strong characters and extremely violent gameplay. Where Bioshock Infinite went for the ridiculous and heavily sci-fi in its story The Last of Us kept it a lot simpler and closer to home. Both had solid gameplay but with some glaring issues (AI ignoring your companions standing in the open in one and everything being a bullet sponge in the other). Bioshock Infinite's narrative just ultimately didn't feel as strong to me as The Last of Us' did, especially the ending. I mean Bioshock Infinite uses time travel as a story-telling device without proper explanation even with the enormous info-dump at the end. I still don't understand why there's Booker with Anna in the end credits and from what I've seen online neither does anyone else. Maybe the final DLC will finally make sense of it all but I'm not going to let the writing in Infinite slide just because of that possibility.

That all said Infinite is still my second favorite game of 2013, just behind The Last of Us. I don't see how someone could enjoy one and hate the other.

9.0 > 8.0

And LOTU had gameplay? I thought it was an interactive movie.

lol youtuber

You do realize you proved my point with that post right? I'm not upset, I never was. I was mildly annoyed. YOU on the other hand just wrote a fucking half page rant. "Thats how you sound....youre pathetic...Or maybe youre one of those delusional trolls..."

Not once did I say BioShock was better than TLoU, I simply said they were both good games. But no, you had to go all delusional Sony/Naughty Dog fanboy on me and spill your guts like an incoherent six year old.

Oh, and FYI, I own a PS3, not a 360. PC is my platform of choice, though. So it looks like you failed on all marks, good job.

texasgoldretard still has sand on his vagina over bioshock infinite?

well to be expected guy is a total psycho, he still argues bs against everyone about dragon age 2, thats what happens when the only thing you do is play games in your basement.

But it does have lazy storytelling, hand waving, and literal deus ex machina with Elizabeth.

And yes, Infinite has plot holes, but the worst thing is that the story is meaningless.

The Last Of Us on the other hand, while not the masterpiece the press makes it out to be, is still damn good, and the ending fit the narrative.

how would I be butthurt.....The Last Of Us absolutely DESTROYED Bioshock Infinite this awards season.

Okay fair enough those are 2 "stupid' elements of the game. But I at least buy the idea of ammo being a balancing move. The part where the AI doesn't get caught I don't buy as a balancing move. That's just not going through the trouble of making better AI. Fair or not, that's what that is.

Scavenging to me in Bioshock Infinite added very little to the game, and ultimately I never did much with the gear stuff to make anything I would argue as a remarkably different build between my 2 and half playthroughs(got bored by the 3rd time). The Last of Us doesn't have builds either, but I quite still enjoy that game on a playthrough.

What happens when you shoot the surgeon in the foot?

No to all of the bolded. There are no plot holes, and Elizabeth is not a Deus Ex Machina. Of course, we've established that you don't know what that phrase means, so it's not surprising that you keep using it improperly.

This video is oooollllddd and was posted back when it was uploaded too

People said the same stuff in that thread back then as they do now

Also Matt left videogamer.tv recently, which is a shame. Funny dude

Bioshock Infinite's gameplay was very "meh" to me. I found myself running past enemies not to deal with them. Ammo galore, Elizabeth flippin money at me everywhere I turned, even during fights, mediocre gun play... blah blah blah. Got boring. Forced myself to finish it. Good ending tho. Good story. Just doesnt hold a candle to the original Bioshock... or the last of us.

@ jg4xchamp

Well Bioshock sucks, only a fool would deny that. As for the surgeon, The Exact Samething that happens when you shoot him in the head, or chest, or balls. Litaraly the same thing happens.Its kind of....... Hey look ! Its Texas ! Lets say hello.

@ texasgoldrush

TGR ! Wooooooooooo ! :D

@ DarkLink77

Actually the entire Quantum Physics thing was a giant "We can do whatever we want" card, its even worse than "It was all dream". Obviously the concept its not a Deus Ex Machina, just the Scenarios where They Used it was Deus Ex Machinas especially in Finkton, remember the Guns and Chen Lin ?

Okay so both play fast and loose with sense of disbelief. Beyond that I had fun with both games, you I'm going to assume weren't too fond of them. That about covers it? Because I don't really disagree with what you've said so far. To me Last of Us's drawbacks didn't bother me as much as the stuff Infinite does it, because to me that game really only does one thing really well on a gameplay level.

It really wasn't. They didn't randomly pull stuff out of nowhere to do whatever they wanted. The had an idea, and executed it.

That's not a Deus Ex Machina because it's been established and that decision has consequences. It isn't something they just make up on the spot, and that decision largely makes things worse. That's not how Deus Ex Machinas work.

It falls flat when compared to the first game. The gameplay was pitiful in Infinite. I mean it was CoD throw waves of enemies at you, then advance. The story was okay, but I felt it had a lot of issues. Bioshock and even Bioshock 2 are leagues better.

@ jg4xchamp

What ! I had a blast with Infinte, until I played it on 99 mode, thats where it rears it ugly head,, but other than that it was great.

The Last Of Us was not as much fun to me, but It was objectively the better game. It shouldve won on the merits of it A.I. Alone.

Correct.....the tears in Finkton is a way that Bioshock Infinite plays with Deus Ex Machina, although its not irritating here, in fact, its subversive.

However, the ending is nearly deus ex machina, but its ridiculously handwaved away because Elizabeth becomes goddess of time and space because she lost her pinky in the portal. Its flat out stupid and the characters lack so much depth, the entire ending does not work. The game simply does not have deep characters, especially its protagonist and antagonist, to make the themes of the ending work. And the notion of "constants and variables" itself is a giant handwave.

99 mode to me always felt like a lame attempt at trying to appease System Shock 2 fans, without understand what people loved about SS2. SS2 you had the ability to actually create some different builds, you don't really have that in Infinite. And the one thing that was consistently enjoyable about Infinite is mixing up the powers, and putting on a show of badassery with all your different abilities. 99 mode compromises your ability to do that and forces you to play the game like every other shooter, lay back, hide behind something, take pot shots. Which is boring, and tiresome at this point.

Not that Infinite didn't have other drawbacks(shooting gallery type encounter designs, lame end game encounters, and like a shit load of story beats being ridiculous), but the best aspect for me was using the powers in aggressive ways. A lot of the "hardest" modes in games are just there without taking into account if the game is even built for that difficulty in mode. Half the time those modes rob the game of the things it does very well.

Last of Us was actually satisfying on survivor, because it forces you to play in a manner that the game is actually satisfying at.

This.....and playing through Dishonored (leagues better than Bioshock Infinite), I am really seeing Bioshock 2's influence with Emily. And while Dishonored had a less ambitions and quite clichéd storyline, its better executed than Bioshock Infinite.

So your problem is the premise. Okay. That doesn't make it a Deus Ex Machina or handwaving. That means you have a problem with the premise.

@ DarkLink77

The consquences were irrelvant Elizabeth raised the dead and Single handedly Armed an entire town literally by wishfull thinking ! Chen Lin was dead, and They Couldn't sneak that machinery out of the station, they wrote themselves deep into a corner, and All LizardBreath had to do to fix it was to want it to be fixed real real bad, and there weren't consequences for traveling through the Time Space Continium, there were anomolies. Elizabeth's reaction to the Revolution (that she started) was nothing but naive, what did she expect when she gave a bunch of angry people guns, which is weird since shes also familiar with Les Miserabe. And Mrs. Lin being white and Fink choosing somebody else to be his Chief of Security are hardly consequential. And remember how they explained why you never ran into alternate your alternative selves inthe other time lines ? It was ridiculous ! And all that was just in Finkton.

@ jg4xchamp

You speaks the truth about 99 mode. And the Last Of Us. I would like to Play System Shock 2 though. Just to see what I was missing since all the System Shock fans say even the 1st two Bioshock games combined were nothing compared to system shock.

This is straight up wrong. She found a world where the guns weren't stolen. Considering that they were stolen, it's not too hard to imagine a world where they weren't. She didn't "want it really bad."

And there were no consequences? Um, by jumping timelines they allow Elizabeth to get captured and set the entire endgame sequence in motion.

And you clearly have no idea what "writing yourself into a corner" means. They meant for that to happen. Do you really think that they decided to have them jump between worlds because they were like, "Well, shit, in the script Chern Lin's dead... I'd guess we'd better build an entire section and plan the rest of the game around that, rather than change that one scene?""

I mean, really? Did we play the same game?

You missed the part where she mentions that manipulating tears is her way of "wish fulfillment".

It is no doubt playing with deus ex machina, the subversion is that there are negative consequences that come with this use. But it is still deus ex machina.

However, the bad part here is that Bioshock Infinite loses sight of its characters when it is in Finkton, and that the characterization lacks so much depth, the ending can not be pulled off properly, Nevermind thematically, the game is a disaster.

That's how she uses it. That's not what it is. There's a difference.

It isn't because it ix explained, set up, and has consequences. You really need to learn what a Deus Ex Machina is.

And I disagree with this entire line. Just so wrong.

ITT: Texas unable to accept that other people have different opinions then him.

@ texasgoldrush

True the ending was the worst part. It was pretty cool to play through though, Finaly A Respite from all that mundane violence, what took them so long.

@ DarkLink77

She didn't find it (thats for gameplay tears), The Tears (in the story) react to how badly she wants them she said it herself " whenever I get anxious tears have a way of appearing......Its a Form of Wish Fufillment" something like that (I cant spell)

and Elizabeth's capture, was because Song Bird found her as he wouldve regardless of which Timeline.

And Fine perhaps they killed Chen Lin, and made the Machinery Unmovable deliberately so that Elizabeth would be forced to use her Powers, doesn't change the fact the it only works when she really really really wants it to. Its lets use Magic (I know its Science, its still bullshit) to make stuff happen "and if anybody asks how..... Just Say Quantum Physics"

Deliberately writing yourself into a corner is still writing yourself into and Time Traveling infinte possibilities will always be a Deus Ex Machina, even if it was intentional.

@ inb4uall

Other People unable tell the difference between fact and oppinion.....

See, it goes both ways.

Awesome fucking game. Some aspects people will argue are dated, and there is a type of building mistake you can make that make beating that game way harder than it needs to be, but overall very satisfying game. Failure in that game just meant more than it ever did in Bioshock 1-3, and overall the character builds do allow some replayability to that game all these years later. Especially since they just don't make games like that anymore, especially not with the same amount of depth.

Plus the plot had some awesome moments. You know, for a videogame story.

The worst part about Bioshock Infinite is the notion that in a universe of infinite possibilities, Booker is always a drunk who will sell his daughter and Comstock is always an evil religious nut who finds a city and takes Booker's daughter. There is no depth to Booker or Comstock to explain why they will always go down this road because the characters simply put, lack depth. Its all "constants and variables" just because the writers say so, its never explained on a character or thematic level, therefore the ending simply does not work.

True, but it's not like Bioshock is the only neutered game trying to do stuff that Deus Ex and SS2 did.

That's not to say Dishonored and for people that like: Human Revolution weren't good, or that I think that much of the original Deus Ex(I fucking don't), but what those games attempted were to give the player a lot more than what is being done now with those type of games. Which I hope will even itself out as we start getting more of these types of games. I believe that games like Dishonored are actually going to be the next big triple A buzzword.
"emergent" and "player choice" and all that jazz, and in between someone goes nuts with more in depth character building stuff. Hopefully just without jank. Deus Ex OG is cool and all, but so much jank to boot. Play stealth requires to one to ignore that it's stealth for dummies.

Well, yeah. The whole, "My power varies depending on my emotions" bit is an old trope. That doesn't mean that she can create tears to realities that don't exist, just that it's easier to use them when she's nervous or excited.

Not necessarily. The reason they get found is because Booker is dead in the timeline they travel to, and as such, his appearance is a big deal. The whole freaking city is after them, hence Songbird finding them.

It works when her emotions get in the way because she doesn't know how to control it. That's not a plot hole, bad writing, or handwaving.

Time travel and multiple realities aren't Deus Ex machinas when they are the point of the game and are woven into the plot from the first minute. You guys really need to learn what a Deus Ex Machina is.

The whole "RPG-elements" thing has kinda been bleeding into other shooters, too. Yahtzee complained about that Wolfenstein game from a few years ago having lame RPG-need-to-upgrade-the-guns-before-they're-worth-anything junk, and the new Shadow Warrior has that, too. I don't think that's as much of a problem in the new Shadow Warrior, though, 'cause it's got that New Game Plus thing and the guns are still pretty kickass right out of the gate, as far as standard FPS guns go.

I don't mind upgradeable weapons to be honest, matter of fact I kind of like it. Hell it's in my favorite game(Resident Evil 4). It sells the idea of you becoming stronger, and with new game plus it adds to the replay aspect of the game.

The issue at that point is how a game balances its upgrade or it goes nicely with the pace of the game. Because honestly some games should have had more in terms of upgrades or a new game plus. Shadows of the Damned not having a new game plus just seems ridiculous, and Vanquish not getting more upgrades as the game went on felt lacking too. Felt like by the halfway point I was as strong as I'll ever be. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in a game about pure power fantasy badassery, usually more power is better. Usually.

But again that doesn't really apply to everything. Last of Us for instance kept its upgrades in check(for the most part)

How can anyone dislike The Last of Us is beyond me. I can understand if you don't love it but to dislike it? The story is really good and i always felt on edge playing because nothing goes according to plan while playing it specially when trying to kill the infected.

@texasgoldrush:

I agree that Bioshock Inf. is better to be related to Dishonored than The Last of Us: (re)playing Dishonored one clearly sees at what point it was of inspiration here, whereas its plot while also quite negative is way better and less obtrusive than the Infinite holdall of ideas that seeks to hammer its nihilistic message in at literally every corner. Also, betrayed Corvo Attano gone assassin out of loyalty and vengeance is a more intriguing character than mercenary Booker De Witt whose motives (other than his debt) never actually become clear.

@ jg4xchamp

Builds should be well balanced wouldn't you say. It should be like President Evil 5's weapons, all differen't and unique and non inferior/superior to one another (mostly). Problem with adding Role Playing Elements to these games is they take the wrong combination of elements, the ability to craft a build and approach and resolve scenarios in multple ways is always a plus but the upgrading/leveling up is what causes these builds to be uneven/unbalanced. Theres also the level/enemy design aspect. Each build must have an Equal number of oppertunities to be used lest you wind up in a situation like Bioshock Infinite where you get Shock Jockey and no water or Undertow and now hazards to push your enemy into and baddies immune to Possession. If upgrades should be used then it would be more advantageous to go the Batman route where each upgrade adds an entirely new mechanic instead of just buffing the existing ones. Something that I thought was rare in the 90's which is why Ive been skepticle about System Shock 2

@ texasgoldrush

Disclaimer: Main Booker and Liz is you and your liz and Alternate Booker and Liz are the ones you don't see because ones Booker dies and liz gets Capture. Anyway:

In Finkton, after Daisy Gets her new weapons theres a voxophone explaining why booker never crosses paths with himself or alternate Elizabeth. It says In Preparation for your arrival, Comstock moved Alt Elizabeth from Monument Island to His house to make sure alt Booker doesn't find her, then according to that Time line's events Alt Booker teamed up with Fitzroy to "Storm the Castle" so he can get Elizabeth and Fitzroy gets Revenge. But it doesn't get that far, Alternate Booker dies just before or during the Uprising in Finkton before Main Booker and Liz arrive, meaning in that timeline Alternate Elizabeth is still trapped at Comstock House unaware that Alternate Booker is Dead and Main Booker is arriving with Main Elizabeth, this is where things get twisted, now right before you make it to Comstocks house, Songbird Captures Elizabeth despite that you're still Sharing a time line with Alt Elizabeth, maybe he song bird was there guarding Alt Elizabeth's new location in case she escaped which seems weird because with alt Booker now dead then there was no need for having song bird as a guard. But thats not important, back on topic: So song Bird Captures Elizabeth and takes her where, since alt Elizabeth is already in Comstock House, any way for some reason while pursuing song bird you go through another tear into Comstock House in the Future where you find you know who, and sends you back to save Elizabeth, except we don't know which Liz it is, is it Alt Liz or Main Liz ? She seems to know you so its most likely Main since Alt Liz never got a chance to meet Alt Booker. That means at some point, Alt Liz traded place with Main Liz, they never explained that.

No, she is a literal deus ex machina at the end of the game, the character archetype in the style of the ancient Greeks, an omniscience which unravels the plot and resolves the plot in a contrived manner. The ONLY reason why the plot device, deus ex machina, isn't played straight is because of a hand wave. The hand wave is that she lost her pinky in the portal therefore she is the goddess of time and space. That is simply a ridiculous and utterly nonsensical explanation to not only her powers in general, but the MAGNITUDE of her powers. That's why its a handwave, a flimsy explanation to what would be an incoherent point of the plot. Its simply piss poor writing and flimsy storytelling. And Bioshock Infinite is full of this scotch tape. "Constants and variables" is another irritating hand wave so Levine could pick and choose what he wants without explaining why they are what they are. Just hand wave it away by mentioning constants and variables. And to use this to make every Booker who doesn't accept the baptism a drunk who sells his daughter and to every Booker who does accept the baptism, a religious lunatic, is simply piss poor writing and lazy storytelling.

The game simply fails on a character and thematic level. Its atrocious. Booker has very little depth, and we know very little about him, and there is very little explanation of what makes Comstock the way he is, unlike past Bioshock visionaries Ryan and Lamb. The dueteragonist has the most depth, but her character development is forced, disjointed, and sloppy. And the less said about the absolute shallow supporting cast, the better. Even the Luteces lack depth, their not much deeper than say, The outsider of Dishonored. And thematically, the game simply put, doesn't know what it wants to be about. And they shoot itself in the foot by making the entire plot meaningless, as it never happens in the first place.

@Vaasman said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@Lulu_Lulu said:

@ DarkLink77

Actually the entire Quantum Physics thing was a giant "We can do whatever we want" card, its even worse than "It was all dream". Obviously the concept its not a Deus Ex Machina, just the Scenarios where They Used it was Deus Ex Machinas especially in Finkton, remember the Guns and Chen Lin ?

Correct.....the tears in Finkton is a way that Bioshock Infinite plays with Deus Ex Machina, although its not irritating here, in fact, its subversive.

However, the ending is nearly deus ex machina, but its ridiculously handwaved away because Elizabeth becomes goddess of time and space because she lost her pinky in the portal. Its flat out stupid and the characters lack so much depth, the entire ending does not work. The game simply does not have deep characters, especially its protagonist and antagonist, to make the themes of the ending work. And the notion of "constants and variables" itself is a giant handwave.

No, I know what it means. You are not getting what I am saying.

The Finkton tears definitely are deus ex machina, but once again, I say not only subverted, but deconstructed, because they carry negative consequences as well, even more so than positive ones. But the situation is hopeless when they find Chen dead, until the Luteces arrive to provide the solution abruptly. But with this deus ex machina, they made things worse in the long run, its deconstructed. And here I say its a justified deus ex machina, Elizabeth is warping reality without thinking of the consequences.

What isn't justified is the multiple handwaves Infinite uses to hide its lack of real depth.