Does the Wii deserve such high sales numbers?

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]I think what we all need to recognise is that the Wii does have compelling software it just isn't to most of our tastes. Wii Sports and Wii PLay are obviously very compelling to a certain type of consumer.JakeT

True. However, without the slick ad campaign showing people using the WiiMote, I don't think most people would try it. Then there's the price as well, which is attractive to consumers.

Yeah but price alone wouldn't sell it. The same system without Zelda, Wii Sports, Wii Play and motion control wouldn't be selling well at all.  The thing is certainly selling on its merits. The reason it faces so much hostility around here is that its merits don't necessarily match up to what hardcore gamers want.

I think what we all need to recognise is that the Wii does have compelling software it just isn't to most of our tastes. Wii Sports and Wii PLay are obviously very compelling to a certain type of consumer.cakeorrdeath

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]I think what we all need to recognise is that the Wii does have compelling software it just isn't to most of our tastes. Wii Sports and Wii PLay are obviously very compelling to a certain type of consumer.Teufelhuhn

I suppose you have a point. To most gamers Wii Play is deserving of the low score it got in the GS review, but to others it holds much more value than Halo 3 or whatever. Man, Wii is really mucking up the way we do System Wars. :P

It's not just mucking up system wars it is mucking up how sites like Gamespot and 1Up review games. They are supposed to be viewing games from the perspective of its intended audiance and clearly the reviews of Wii PLay and Brainage are not reflecting how much pleasure the intended audiance is getting from those games. 

I somewhat agree with you. While I agree there is some software on the Wii that does not appeal to me (like Wiisports and such) I can still have fun playing it when with other people who want to play it.

As for the software that does appeal to me, the Wii has a bit of it now and is getting quite a bit more. I still need to go out and get Super Paper Mario and and perhaps rent Elebits, Godfather and Sonic.

Nintendo is doing something that no other game giant has ever really done (and they did this with the DS as well)... offered games that appeal across the board to all types of gamers.

My 2 cents.foxhound_fox

Personally I am a huge fan of Wii Sports, I was just attempting to some up a majority view. 

It's not just mucking up system wars it is mucking up how sites like Gamespot and 1Up review games. They are supposed to be viewing games from the perspective of its intended audiance and clearly the reviews of Wii PLay and Brainage are not reflecting how much pleasure the intended audiance is getting from those games.

cakeorrdeath

[QUOTE="ZIMdoom"]

Why is a mod making such ridiculous threads. Does the Wii deserve high sales? COme on. It's getting high sales and while we can argue over WHY, I think it's pretty useless to argue if it deserves it. I don't think Halo deserved it's praise OR sales...but geuss what, reality is reality and it doesn't revolve around me.

Does MS deserve to be in the console business? Do any of us deserve to even play consoles? Does the ipod deserve to be a top seller? Does Windows deserve to be on PCs?

Who cares? It is.

JakeT

Isn't pretty much every argument in this forum in particular fairly useless? This thread isn't ridiculous, it's a fair discussion.  

Touche.

But my issues isn't with the fairness of the discussion.  My issue is why a mod would make a thread that a dozen fanboys make on a regular basis. 

My belief is that consumerism has nothing to do with morality and therefore attributing moral qualities such as "deserving" is totally moot.  People want what they want and buy what they buy.  And while we all may have our own opinions on what we like to spend our money on, I simply don't see what "deserve" has to do with the process.  It's consumerism.  Possessions have no rights to our money and therefore can not be considered deserving.

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]I think what we all need to recognise is that the Wii does have compelling software it just isn't to most of our tastes. Wii Sports and Wii PLay are obviously very compelling to a certain type of consumer.cakeorrdeath

I suppose you have a point. To most gamers Wii Play is deserving of the low score it got in the GS review, but to others it holds much more value than Halo 3 or whatever. Man, Wii is really mucking up the way we do System Wars. :P

It's not just mucking up system wars it is mucking up how sites like Gamespot and 1Up review games. They are supposed to be viewing games from the perspective of its intended audiance and clearly the reviews of Wii PLay and Brainage are not reflecting how much pleasure the intended audiance is getting from those games.

Grab a random passerby off the street.

"Do you play Video-games?"

"No...."

"Perfect, play with this for a few hours and tell us if it's fun."

:lol: 

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]I think what we all need to recognise is that the Wii does have compelling software it just isn't to most of our tastes. Wii Sports and Wii PLay are obviously very compelling to a certain type of consumer.cakeorrdeath

I suppose you have a point. To most gamers Wii Play is deserving of the low score it got in the GS review, but to others it holds much more value than Halo 3 or whatever. Man, Wii is really mucking up the way we do System Wars. :P

It's not just mucking up system wars it is mucking up how sites like Gamespot and 1Up review games. They are supposed to be viewing games from the perspective of its intended audiance and clearly the reviews of Wii PLay and Brainage are not reflecting how much pleasure the intended audiance is getting from those games.

excellent point. though sites like this cater to the hard core gamer more, so rating them worse than the public isn't always a bad thing. but the readers need to realize that this is not a representation of the masses. just a niche.  (sadly that's often forgotten).

Personally I am a huge fan of Wii Sports, I was just attempting to some up a majority view. cakeorrdeath

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]

It's not just mucking up system wars it is mucking up how sites like Gamespot and 1Up review games. They are supposed to be viewing games from the perspective of its intended audiance and clearly the reviews of Wii PLay and Brainage are not reflecting how much pleasure the intended audiance is getting from those games.

Tylendal

Grab a random passerby off the street.

"Do you play Video-games?"

"No...."

"Perfect, play with this for a few hours and tell us if it's fun." 

:lol:

perhaps rent Elebits, Godfather and Sonic.foxhound_fox

Sonic, I didn't like, and neither did my friend, though there are people who did (I wouldn't suggest it).

I want to rent Godfather myself.

[QUOTE="ZIMdoom"]Why is a mod making such ridiculous threads.Jandurin

They become mods and as such ascend to a different level of being that removes their ability to ask or say things that people disagree with?

Edit:  [spoiler] More like they become a mod and people start disagreeing with them just because they are teh MOD [/spoiler]

Way to completely miss my point and simply make up what I said so it is easier for you to comperehend and attack. 

I believe that is called a strawman, sir.

[QUOTE="JakeT"][QUOTE="ZIMdoom"]

Why is a mod making such ridiculous threads. Does the Wii deserve high sales? COme on. It's getting high sales and while we can argue over WHY, I think it's pretty useless to argue if it deserves it. I don't think Halo deserved it's praise OR sales...but geuss what, reality is reality and it doesn't revolve around me.

Does MS deserve to be in the console business? Do any of us deserve to even play consoles? Does the ipod deserve to be a top seller? Does Windows deserve to be on PCs?

Who cares? It is.

ZIMdoom

Isn't pretty much every argument in this forum in particular fairly useless? This thread isn't ridiculous, it's a fair discussion.

Touche.

But my issues isn't with the fairness of the discussion. My issue is why a mod would make a thread that a dozen fanboys make on a regular basis.

My belief is that consumerism has nothing to do with morality and therefore attributing moral qualities such as "deserving" is totally moot. People want what they want and buy what they buy. And while we all may have our own opinions on what we like to spend our money on, I simply don't see what "deserve" has to do with the process. It's consumerism. Possessions have no rights to our money and therefore can not be considered deserving.

The question, is whether or not the sales were earned for a valid reason. Just say for example, that some billionaire want to build a house, using Wii's and Wii-motes as bricks.  Would the some-odd million Wii's sold for that truly be indicative of the success of the console?  They would not be, and so would not truly be deserved sales.

[QUOTE="Tylendal"][QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]

It's not just mucking up system wars it is mucking up how sites like Gamespot and 1Up review games. They are supposed to be viewing games from the perspective of its intended audiance and clearly the reviews of Wii PLay and Brainage are not reflecting how much pleasure the intended audiance is getting from those games.

Teufelhuhn

Grab a random passerby off the street.

"Do you play Video-games?"

"No...."

"Perfect, play with this for a few hours and tell us if it's fun."

:lol:

Maybe they need speciality reviewers. Like they have a guy for sports they need a Touch Generations reviewer.

Seriously though I fully expect these sites to respond to these new games in some fashon in the comming years.

fate is a fickle mistress with no contempt for the deserving!

alas i ask you, does Antonio Mcdyss deserve a champion ship ring more than SIR CHALES? OR JOHN STOKTON? verily i say unto you, begot what thou hath deemed validation. what is and what is not are perpetually intwined.  

I believe that is called a strawman, sir.ZIMdoom

So, what was your point?  Just that fanboys make this thread so he shouldn't?

I would rather have a relatively unbiased approach than the biased "this is why it doesn't deserve it approach".

Unless I'm misreading again?

[QUOTE="JakeT"]

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]I think what we all need to recognise is that the Wii does have compelling software it just isn't to most of our tastes. Wii Sports and Wii PLay are obviously very compelling to a certain type of consumer.cakeorrdeath

True. However, without the slick ad campaign showing people using the WiiMote, I don't think most people would try it. Then there's the price as well, which is attractive to consumers.

Yeah but price alone wouldn't sell it. The same system without Zelda, Wii Sports, Wii Play and motion control wouldn't be selling well at all. The thing is certainly selling on its merits. The reason it faces so much hostility around here is that its merits don't necessarily match up to what hardcore gamers want.

Agreed. Although I still contend that the marketing has more to do with it than most people would like to admit. The commercials are creative and they look fun. 

[QUOTE="Jandurin"]

[QUOTE="ZIMdoom"]Why is a mod making such ridiculous threads.ZIMdoom

They become mods and as such ascend to a different level of being that removes their ability to ask or say things that people disagree with?

Edit: [spoiler] More like they become a mod and people start disagreeing with them just because they are teh MOD [/spoiler]

Way to completely miss my point and simply make up what I said so it is easier for you to comperehend and attack.

I believe that is called a strawman, sir.

What Jandurin said is the exact reason that I would not want to be a Mod.  Your words carry power, so you have to be careful what you say. 

It goes deeper than price, marketing, controller, etc for why the Wii is selling. It's philosophy.
The philosophy of the Wii is very simple: bring gaming to the masses. Every single element of the Wii is designed towards that end.
The appearance? Sleep, simple, sexy. The type of thing you'd want to put out next to your TV.
The controller? Intuitive and accessible. Anyone can figure out the Wiimote (when used properly).
The price? $250 is a fairly mass-market price. It won't keep many from buying the console.
The marketing? Focused on the player as much as the game. It conveys the thought "Hey, this is fun!"
Even the pack-in game. Wii Sports: a game that is very intuitive and easy to play, but has surprising depth and replay value.

And here's the thing about the masses: there are a lot of them.
Nintendo went a different route, and have succeeded far more than anyone could've expected a couple of years ago.

They succeeded at what they were going for, and wildly so. They deserve every single sale they've gotten.

At this point, the Wii isn't on its way to being a contender, it is the contender.   It's THE contender to beat, and it deserves every one of its sales.  No other console in the history of gaming has attempted what Nintendo is attempting: to bring in people who don't play games while keeping the hardcore gamer.

No, Nintendo isn't ignoring the hardcore gamers (ignorant belief) nor are they out to destroy the industry (far beyond ignorant into "please remove yourself from he gene pool" belief).  They're doing what everyone else in the industry should be doing: trying something different.

Looks at the games. No it doent deserve high sales. Looks at the advertising and target audience. Yes the casual non-gamer are suckers. What does that make the gamer, who still buys one and has it gathering dust. Using names like Zelda and other ports, even if they are disguised as sequels.ps3-nikita

How are they disguised?  They are sequels.  Disguised would be games like OoT Master Quest.  LoZ Collecters Addition.  Fable: The Lost Chapters, and Super Mario Advance. 

lmfao at anyone getting offended that jake has a opinion.

now you all are getting a taste of what sw used to be like.

excellent point. though sites like this cater to the hard core gamer more, so rating them worse than the public isn't always a bad thing. but the readers need to realize that this is not a representation of the masses. just a niche. (sadly that's often forgotten).

Ontain

Actually according to Gamespot that isn't the case.

From their review guide

We Cater to the Discriminating Game Player
Our reviews are written with the prospective customer in mind--someone who's naturally interested in playing a new game and has a limited amount of time and money to spend. Our editors approach each review strictly from that perspective. In turn, our reviews are not intended to validate or support the beliefs of hardcore fans, nor are they intended to provide feedback to developers or publishers about how a given game could have been improved. Our reviews are only designed to tell you, the game player, to what extent a game is worth your while.

fate is a fickle mistress with no contempt for the deserving!

 

alas i ask you, does Antonio Mcdyss deserve a champion ship ring more than SIR CHALES? OR JOHN STOKTON? verily i say unto you, begot what thou hath deemed validation. what is and what is not are perpetually intwined.

JPOBS

 What movie is that in your sig?!?!?!?

Agreed. Although I still contend that the marketing has more to do with it than most people would like to admit. The commercials are creative and they look fun.

JakeT

From my own experience from showing it to family and friends who were previously not gamers I disagree. The product is selling itself and its players are doing most of the marketing.

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]

fate is a fickle mistress with no contempt for the deserving!

 

alas i ask you, does Antonio Mcdyss deserve a champion ship ring more than SIR CHALES? OR JOHN STOKTON? verily i say unto you, begot what thou hath deemed validation. what is and what is not are perpetually intwined.

arinya

What movie is that in your sig?!?!?!?

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"][QUOTE="JakeT"]

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]I think what we all need to recognise is that the Wii does have compelling software it just isn't to most of our tastes. Wii Sports and Wii PLay are obviously very compelling to a certain type of consumer.JakeT

True. However, without the slick ad campaign showing people using the WiiMote, I don't think most people would try it. Then there's the price as well, which is attractive to consumers.

Yeah but price alone wouldn't sell it. The same system without Zelda, Wii Sports, Wii Play and motion control wouldn't be selling well at all. The thing is certainly selling on its merits. The reason it faces so much hostility around here is that its merits don't necessarily match up to what hardcore gamers want.

Agreed. Although I still contend that the marketing has more to do with it than most people would like to admit. The commercials are creative and they look fun.

In fact, if I were feeling more bold I might contend that the act of Nintendo simply saying that their console is "non-gamer friendly" has done a lot to shape our notions of the system (this goes for myself too). 
Teufelhuhn

[QUOTE="Ontain"]

excellent point. though sites like this cater to the hard core gamer more, so rating them worse than the public isn't always a bad thing. but the readers need to realize that this is not a representation of the masses. just a niche. (sadly that's often forgotten).

cakeorrdeath

Actually according to Gamespot that isn't the case.

From their review guide

We Cater to the Discriminating Game Player
Our reviews are written with the prospective customer in mind--someone who's naturally interested in playing a new game and has a limited amount of time and money to spend. Our editors approach each review strictly from that perspective. In turn, our reviews are not intended to validate or support the beliefs of hardcore fans, nor are they intended to provide feedback to developers or publishers about how a given game could have been improved. Our reviews are only designed to tell you, the game player, to what extent a game is worth your while.

he probably meant in terms of the community. JPOBS

 I don't think so as we were discussing the reviews. 

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]I think what we all need to recognise is that the Wii does have compelling software it just isn't to most of our tastes. Wii Sports and Wii PLay are obviously very compelling to a certain type of consumer.Teufelhuhn

I suppose you have a point. To most gamers Wii Play is deserving of the low score it got in the GS review, but to others it holds much more value than Halo 3 or whatever. Man, Wii is really mucking up the way we do System Wars. :P

But yeah...I think it might not deserve ALL of it's sales.

I agree that 3rd partys need to step it up. Games like No more Heroes and Dewey's adventure *teh kidday aside* look interesting 

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]he probably meant in terms of the community. cakeorrdeath

I don't think so as we were discussing the reviews.

Agreed with their stance up until the "limited amount of time and money" BS.

No reviewer who followed that guildline would give a 9.6 to a game like Oblivion, which by far is a game people with a limited amount of time should stay the hell away from. 

Yes. Why?

1. Its Cheap.

2. Its Cheap.

3. Its Cheap.

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]

It's not just mucking up system wars it is mucking up how sites like Gamespot and 1Up review games. They are supposed to be viewing games from the perspective of its intended audiance and clearly the reviews of Wii PLay and Brainage are not reflecting how much pleasure the intended audiance is getting from those games.

Teufelhuhn

That brings up the question - Who should review games like Wii Sports / Brainage, etc.?  Obviously they have an audience, and someone should tackle that audience.  Maybe they "don't play games" but they sure as hell purchase and use entertainment software, and they want purchase reviews and recommendations as much as any other consumer.

[QUOTE="ZIMdoom"][QUOTE="JakeT"][QUOTE="ZIMdoom"]

Why is a mod making such ridiculous threads. Does the Wii deserve high sales? COme on. It's getting high sales and while we can argue over WHY, I think it's pretty useless to argue if it deserves it. I don't think Halo deserved it's praise OR sales...but geuss what, reality is reality and it doesn't revolve around me.

Does MS deserve to be in the console business? Do any of us deserve to even play consoles? Does the ipod deserve to be a top seller? Does Windows deserve to be on PCs?

Who cares? It is.

Tylendal

Isn't pretty much every argument in this forum in particular fairly useless? This thread isn't ridiculous, it's a fair discussion.

Touche.

But my issues isn't with the fairness of the discussion. My issue is why a mod would make a thread that a dozen fanboys make on a regular basis.

My belief is that consumerism has nothing to do with morality and therefore attributing moral qualities such as "deserving" is totally moot. People want what they want and buy what they buy. And while we all may have our own opinions on what we like to spend our money on, I simply don't see what "deserve" has to do with the process. It's consumerism. Possessions have no rights to our money and therefore can not be considered deserving.

The question, is whether or not the sales were earned for a valid reason. Just say for example, that some billionaire want to build a house, using Wii's and Wii-motes as bricks.  Would the some-odd million Wii's sold for that truly be indicative of the success of the console?  They would not be, and so would not truly be deserved sales.

I'm sorry but that is an extremely terrible comparison.  PEople are buying the Wii to play games. 

Plus, we are not arguing about whether or not somebody building a house out of Wii means it is deserving of sales.  AS I already mentioned, if somebody wants to buy enough Wiis to build a house then that is his perogative.  Arguing about whether those Wiis "deserve" to be sold is totally irrelevant.  It's like arguing whether the sun deserves to rise.  The fact is the sun did rise, hypothetically that guy DID build a house out of Wiis, and in the real world the Wii is selling such high sales numbers. The only logical thing anyone can do, is judge "worth" by the results and not by personal opinion.  Since the Wii IS IN FACT selling in high numbers it must clearly deserve to be doing so.  If the Wii sold low numbers it must deserve to be doing so.

Otherwise, all anyone is doing is creating more fanboy arguements that will go nowhere and change nobody's mind and solve nothing.  Wii haters will say it doesn' deserve the sales...only their console is deserving.  Wii fans will say it DOES deserve the sales...and other consoles don't deserve their sales.   Meanwhile capitalism says that people are buying the Wii, Nintendo is making money, and everything else is meaningless.

Otherwise, all anyone is doing is creating more fanboy arguements that will go nowhere and change nobody's mind and solve nothing. Wii haters will say it doesn' deserve the sales...only their console is deserving. Wii fans will say it DOES deserve the sales...and other consoles don't deserve their sales. Meanwhile capitalism says that people are buying the Wii, Nintendo is making money, and everything else is meaningless.

 

ZIMdoom

Just read the thread. The discussion in general has been good. I see no problem with this thread at all.  

^^^^^^^

Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

Will Munny, "Unforgiven" 

^^^^^^^

Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

Will Munny, "Unforgiven"

Iyethar

Alright then, to what do you attribute the success of the Wii (regarding sales)? Since essentially that's the core question of the topic.

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]I think what we all need to recognise is that the Wii does have compelling software it just isn't to most of our tastes. Wii Sports and Wii PLay are obviously very compelling to a certain type of consumer.Tylendal

I suppose you have a point. To most gamers Wii Play is deserving of the low score it got in the GS review, but to others it holds much more value than Halo 3 or whatever. Man, Wii is really mucking up the way we do System Wars. :P

It's not just mucking up system wars it is mucking up how sites like Gamespot and 1Up review games. They are supposed to be viewing games from the perspective of its intended audiance and clearly the reviews of Wii PLay and Brainage are not reflecting how much pleasure the intended audiance is getting from those games.

Grab a random passerby off the street.

"Do you play Video-games?"

"No...."

"Perfect, play with this for a few hours and tell us if it's fun."

:lol:

If you handed them an Xbox 360 or a SIXAXIS controller, they won't take it as it would be "too complicated to be fun".

Hand them a DS or a Wii remote and they will be able to actually play it to see if it really is fun. 

[QUOTE="Tylendal"][QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]I think what we all need to recognise is that the Wii does have compelling software it just isn't to most of our tastes. Wii Sports and Wii PLay are obviously very compelling to a certain type of consumer.Willy105

I suppose you have a point. To most gamers Wii Play is deserving of the low score it got in the GS review, but to others it holds much more value than Halo 3 or whatever. Man, Wii is really mucking up the way we do System Wars. :P

It's not just mucking up system wars it is mucking up how sites like Gamespot and 1Up review games. They are supposed to be viewing games from the perspective of its intended audiance and clearly the reviews of Wii PLay and Brainage are not reflecting how much pleasure the intended audiance is getting from those games.

Grab a random passerby off the street.

"Do you play Video-games?"

"No...."

"Perfect, play with this for a few hours and tell us if it's fun."

:lol:

If you handed them an Xbox 360 or a SIXAXIS controller, they won't take it as it would be "too complicated to be fun".

Hand them a DS or a Wii remote and they will be able to actually play it to see if it really is fun.

Ironically, as a semi-hardcore gamer I'm very used to the PS2/PS3 and 360 controllers and all the buttons so when I use the WiiMote I often think to myself "Wha... where are teh buttons!?!" :lol: But I figure it out eventually.  

I think the key to it all is Wii Sports.  Wii Sports is the Wii's Nintendogs.  People (non-gamers especially) want to play this game and see what can be done with the Wii remote.  So I guess the answer might be that the non-gamers and casuals are contributing a lot to the sales.

Ironically, as a semi-hardcore gamer I'm very used to the PS2/PS3 and 360 controllers and all the buttons so when I use the WiiMote I often think to myself "Wha... where are teh buttons!?!" :lol: But I figure it out eventually.  JakeT

My exact thoughts when I first played Twilight Princess.

Wow Jake is back.

I think right now, nope. It is due to the games lacking the innovation DS has put. Elite Beat Agents proves DS is worth it sales.
Wii depends on how the developers treat it: easy cash-in or innovative controller?

[QUOTE="JakeT"]Ironically, as a semi-hardcore gamer I'm very used to the PS2/PS3 and 360 controllers and all the buttons so when I use the WiiMote I often think to myself "Wha... where are teh buttons!?!" :lol: But I figure it out eventually. -The-G-Man-

My exact thoughts when I first played Twilight Princess.

I thought about lack of buttons also, but then Super Paper Mario proved me wrong that it can work with little to no buttons used.