Why suffering and what is hell like? (Christian Perspective)

I was watching this series and I thought I'd share this particular video with you.

That's the Dave Hunt guy I have mentioned (old guy). This is not from their site but from their youtube channel.

The part I want to highlight starts at 4:46 but you can watch the whole thing if you like. If you want to start the whole series I can provide a link if you are interested.

Edit: Here is the start.

There's only one sermon on Hell that I need.

Evolution doesn't dis-allow for God. He even pointedly claims "evolution aims to disprove God". I'm stopping the video there because he simply doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. He doesn't have even an elementary grasp of the basic fundamentals of the theory, and his insistence on connecting evolution to atheism is illogical. Don't speak on subjects of which you are grossly ignorant, would be my best advice to him.

Well there is such a thing as context. This isn't the first video in the series.

But since we are on a tangent (you won't watch the part I was highlighting) how do you think evolution allows for belief in God (not to be too combative)?

See my previous comments.

Amen.

Evolution explains why we have such a large variety of life. Not how it got started, or who started it, or if it even needed starting by an outside actor such as a god. A very large amount of Christians these days believe that Yahweh created life through the process of evolution. Only an increasingly small, vocal, and ignorant group of ultra conservative biblical literalists believe that Genesis describes very literally what happened. (world made in exactly seven days, all life created as it is now all at once, etc.) Many use the line of thought that a "day" for a being like Yahweh would not be a day as we know it.

Only the previously mentioned radical group of literalists feel threatened by the theory of evolution, and that's because it makes it clear that the literal reading of the Genesis creation story is simply not possible. But that is the least of their problems. Adam and Eve? Didn't happen. (thus original sin never happened, rendering the sacrifice of Jesus rather silly and pointless) Great flood and the ark? Didn't happen. Enslavement in Egypt and the Exodus? Didn't happen. Smarter people adapt their beliefs to reality as we learn more and hold to the true basic principles of their religion, to be a Christian is to simply be Christ-like. To live like Christ.

Sadly, most Christians don't even understand that.

Well you have people like Dawkins who considers things like belief in God to be evil. Also, there's the fact that Evolution seems to be all about how things came about by chance. If we are talking about the Judeo-Christian God then they are mutually exclusive since he claims to to have made everything himself (that is, not by chance).

Anyway, this isn't a thread about evolution though I thought the whole video series would be interesting on that point for those interested (start from the beginning). What it is about is suffering and hell because he gives an illustration (a really good one) on the former and an insightful description on the latter (from 4:46). I will edit the OP so it starts from there).

No. No it doesn't. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You do not even have an elementary grasp of the theory of evolution. Evolution explains nothing but speciation, why we have such a wide variety of life. You are confusing evolution with abiogenesis, which is an entirely different subject.

Hell doesn't exist, it's illogical. Our consciousness ends the second our brain dies, and pain isn't possible without a fully functioning healthy body. Some folks actually have the condition known as CIP that does not allow them to feel pain right now. Hell is a silly idea that was created for the sole purpose of scaring people into obedience to religion.

Which hell? Sheol? Tartarus? Gehenna? Hades? Etc.

The modern concept of 'hell' doesn't actually appear in the original Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic.

This guy knows what's up.

I applaud you.

This series is for you then. As is another website AnswersinGenesis.

Just cause a lot of people believe in something doesn't mean it is true (referring to Christian Evolutionist or even anyone).

There is literally no proof that animals shifted between species over how many millions of years. Out of the countless number of bones discovered there are none which show conclusively that one species evolves into another when there should be many. All those impressive diagrams in textbooks featuring creatures morphing from what stage to another are not backed by anything factual or scientific in real life. If you watched this series you would see where he gives an illustration. If evolution which does away with useless characteristics exists, how do you explain the development of an eye. He explains how the eye cannot work unless the whole thing is there. How does an eye evolve? Wouldn't the mutations be discarded before it could evolve into anything that would aid survival. Then there is the fact that mutations (I hope I say this right) result in a loss of complexity/information and does add anything. Things would degrade overtime not get more complex.

In one of his books (America: The Sorcerors Apprentice) he refers to Sir Fred Hoyle who points to as saying that if the whole universe was made of organic soup the chance of producing even the basic enzymes of life by random processes without intelligent direction would be approximately 1 on in 10 with 40,000 after it (a million has only 6 zeroes in it). To illustrate how crazy that is if one tried to pick a specific atom out of the universe the chance would be 1 in 10 with just 80 zeroes. He says (i believe he is talking about Sir Hoyle) that if every atom became another Universe the chance of grabbing one specific atom, from all those universes would be 1 in 10 with 160 zeroes (think he means if every atom in the universe became another universe but I am not sure). If the means by which evolution could occur are mathemetically impossible how could it be possible. Well you could say that it was God who kick started it but that is just abandoning the core reason to say that evolution exists which been to claim that he didn't do so.

I am not an expert but it seems clear to me that evolution is hardly settled.

@lumzi32: Sorry, but I will not debate the validity of the theory of evolution with someone who has already displayed a fundamental lack of understanding of even it's most basic principles. That you would recommend a place like Answers in Genesis to me (I must admit, I felt insulted by that) in only drives home that much more clearly that such a discussion would be utterly fruitless.

The only place evolution is not settled in the modern civilized world is the USA, their is a good reason people were literally laughing at Scott Walker in the UK recently.

You have a good day.

Well I have already dealt with some issues with that in my immediately previous post even if you make the distiction between evolution and how things got started.

You say it is out of touch with reality. How so?

Also how on earth is it a contradiction? He talks about how God made the fish for a specific purpose and environment. How is this a contradiction with God made everything? You are not making sense here.

Why is it illogical? You didn't even watch the vid not that you'd understand, I suppose, since this is a small snippet of his full belief. To clarify, He AGREES with you that there isn't physical pain in hell. Hell was original made for spiritual beings like angels so obviously physical torment wouldn't apply there. There fire of Hell is a fire of God's judgement and purity. An eternal separation from God for people who didn't want to be in his presence. You know what? Watch the vid, at least from where I marked (4:46) if you want to argue with me about hell. It is a basic requirement for this discussion.

Well I never said anything about the modern concept of hell. I believe he's talking about the lake of fire mentioned in the new testament and perhaps Sheol (in a biblical sense) which has similar characteristics.

Fair enough. I didn't start this thread to talk about evolution anyway.

Here we go, again, with the religious propaganda.

On the subject of hell, I watched the video from the recommended point against my better judgement, and sure enough, his ignorance on one subject was a prelude to more boring generic religious blackmail. If I'm an atheist now, don't you think I already don't believe in hell, therefore it is safe to assume that I would not fall for the blackmail of "do what my god says or you'll be sorry after you die", despite slight alterations or adjustments to the exact nature of the punishment?

Show me hard evidence for the existence of your god and I will gladly accept he exists. (though that doesn't imply I would follow him) Threats of punishment after death are juvenile schoolyard level stuff.

What's translated as 'Lake of Fire' is, in the original Greek, Gehenna. Which is a real place outside Jerusalem. It's meant as an allegory. Sheol is the grave. In the ground. It's where your body goes.

Prophecy is one of the most amazing things in the bible. I made a long post before this highlighting a few and where you could find them in the Bible but the post didn't take (I thought it had posted then I refreshed the page and it was gone).

I can't do that again so instead I will point you to another video. There very one that got me really fascinated with prophecy and possibly this guys ministry. It has much of what I talked about anyway and much better and more confidently presented.

You probably won't watch (despite claiming I should show you) and it is a bit long (about an hour) but if you are ever interested it is entertainingly presented and really quite good. It should open your eyes. There should be little if any contextual issues as it is in one part and discusses a single issue. Israel, Islam and Armageddon. It is not everyting he has to say on this issue, but is a nice concise video on the main points. Tell you what, watch the first 10 minutes and see if you like it.

Well i am no expert on translating Greek into English but it seems clear to me he meant it as a real place. The bible (somewhere) even talks about how it was prepared for the Devil and his angels. Was and allegory prepared for the devil and his angels? Are they allegories themselves. If so was the angel Gabriel an allegory when he appeared to both Daniel and Mary? If he was how could Mary have been prophesied to about the virgin birth. Do allegories prophecy? No I think it is clear that it is meant as a real place.

Here's what the original texts say. If you do not pass into heaven, you (and Satan and his angels) will experience a 'second death'. You will be tossed aside as refuse and destroyed. The gift of Christ was 'eternal life'. A life eternal in hell is eternal life, and the damned do not have eternal life, they have death.

“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.”

Yes, it's an allegory. It's trying to convey total destruction of the being.

lol christians

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

How can it be everlasting punishment if they are not concious to experience it.

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The above is from Revelation 14 KJV. How can they be totally destroyed if they have no rest day or night? If the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever? It is clear that they haven't been destroyed but that they are enduring their torment. here are some more

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

hell is such a dumb concept.

is god all loving and all forgiving or is he a petty nutbag that tortures you for eternity for some minor infraction?

when i punish my dogs for infractions you know what i don't do?

set them on fire.

pro tip for the lord: an animals capacity for learning, growth and becoming a better creature is severely impeded by being set on fire.

also, after a week you would not even feel it anymore because your nervous system would just adjust.

unless god changed your physiology so you could specifically feel pain after massive nerve overload.

so really?

that's what kind of god i am to worship? some psycho that specifically changes reality to inflict maximum pain?

lol, yeah, sign me up to worship that asshole.

Watch the vid. Hell is a place for NON-PHYSICAL beings. It is not a physical fire. It is a fire of god's judgement and purity.

Watch the vid it will explain better.

no video is going to make the concept of hell less stupid.

it's simply something a loving forgiving god would not bother doing.

what's the point? what lesson is learned? how does anyone consigned to hell become better for the experience?

i have a hard time believing god is a drunk wife beating husband that would tell us if we were better he would not have to blacken our eyes.

he only hits me cuz he loves me just does not work as a motivation for me or as something a morally perfect being would bother doing.

Hell is never mentioned in the original Bible.

Well God is a God of justice. And justice demands that punishment for every wrongdoing be paid. If it didn't it wouldn't be justice.

The bible declares that the wages for sin is death. Death in a spiritual sense means eternal separation from God. That is my understanding of the lake of fire. And it makes sense. Jesus himself spoke of how he who comes to him shall never hunger and never thirst. So what happens to those who don't come to him? Obviously they hunger and they thirst. But thirst for what? The very presence of God. Jesus paid the penalty for man on the cross. What did he cry out? "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" It is the burning torment of eternal separation from God that makes the lake of fire what it is. I mean, if the punishment for sins was physical burning fire shouldn't he have burned physically? He did burn, but not with a physical fire.

"That is still unfair," you say? But isn't that what people want? To have nothing to do with God? He sent his very beloved Son do take that awful punishment in our place and what have people done? They have brushed him aside. What more do you want from him. You don't want anything to do with him. So he is going to give you what you want. To be separated from him as you desired.

sequels always bring hell into it to spice up the stakes.

bill and ted, hellraiser 2, the new testament, amityville 3 ect, ect ect....

Are you going to respond to my post?

Hell the place no one has proof ever existed outside humanities imagination but yet is talked about like it's a real thing by millions of people... I fucking hate the world I live in.

@lumzi32: You must hate me, that is the only reason you keep exposing me to these idiotic videos. Prophecies prove the bible true, sorry bro, been there did that. It was my go to argument as a Christian as well when I got desperate. Well that and telling people they were going to hell but we've firmly established that scares me as much as an eternity in the Shire growing vegetables with Hobbits for not believing in Gandalf, or eternity in Professor Snapes class at Hogwarts for rejecting Dumbledore as my personal lord and savior.

You wanna impress me with prophecy? Show me a prophecy that says on this exact day, and at this exact time, at these precise coordinates on planet Earth a meteorite of these exact proportions will crash through the hood of a 2007 Chevrolet Cobalt owned by a man named Scott. That would impress the shit out of me. Nothing vague or self fulfilling. I don't expect compelling evidence for god in the bible, quite the opposite, that book does the absolute best job refuting god that I've ever seen.

I'm not trying to be combative, so don't take any of what I say here too harshly.

I have a book from the Answers In Genesis group. They argue that the T-Rex existed with man, ate only vegetables like all creatures (despite it's teeth specifically suited to tearing meat), and that this is backed up by words like "Leviathan" which appear in the Kind James version of the Bible (which we know were used because they didn't know how to translate accurately from the original texts). I suspect the people behind this group aren't actually this obtuse (how could they be), but instead are charlatans who know they're selling false ideas (and doing so rather well).

Evolution is fact. We've seen it occur within modern history, and it's such a powerful force that we are A) constantly fighting against it one hand and B) leveraging it's mechanisms to produce desirable effects on the other. This, in no way, should pose a conflict with your faith unless it is integral that you interpret the creation story literally.

In reference to abiogenesis, the lack of knowledge by which it occurs doesn't necessarily mean that it had to occur "randomly". There was a study published recently that hypothesized that abiogenesis occurs because molecules naturally arrange themselves over time (in certain conditions) in ways that are best suited to the transference of heat. While this may or may not end up being the case, it illustrates well how some knowledge gained can shift perception away from "must be magic" to a conceptual understanding.

And once the method of abiogenesis is learned I suspect that like the other such discoveries in history (like the discovery that the Sun doesn't revolve around the Earth, the discovery of evolution, and the discovery of the Earth's age) that people's faith will not suddenly collapse into nothingness.

As "The Pope" mentioned above, these beliefs are not central to the faith, and they only pose an intellectually conundrum if you believe that the text of each relevant book in the Bible is both infallible and literal.

Well I will just assume that you watched the video.

There is nothing vague about saying that I will scatter you out of your land in all the nations of the world, that you will be hated and persecuted, that I will bring you back though were scattered to all the corners of heaven. the bible even predicted that Israel would be the major trouble of the world, that in the days when abandoned their nation would be a source of shock and astonishment. It predicted that Israel would a nation of military might handling the nations around her. Do you know that the Jesus coming into jerusalem on a donkey was predicted TO THE DAY. (You can check. It is in the video and on their site). Daniel's amazing prophecies about the Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman empires needn't be mentioned. One these prophecies or two being fulfilled could be passed off as coincidence but all of them? I suggest you watch the video. I really do.

As for hell, I have said what I have to say in this post. I am not trying to scare you. It is what it is.

A panda has has sharp teeth that you think would be suited to meat but it is a vegetarian. A bear is generally omnivorous.

I don't see how evolution is fact. I am talking about evolution between species not with one.

I can't say much for your abiogenesis hypothesis (not a scientist) but somehow it still seems to fall within what Hoyle calls impossible. Remember that number (1 in 10 with 40000 zeroes) is about the chance of even basic enzymes forming by random process without intelligence entire universe was made of organic soup.

The Pope has nothing to say on Biblical Christianity.

There is no "transformation" from one species into another. Merely highly subtle differences that only become apparent over 1000's of generations.

It's doesn't matter if you can't understand the simple process of evolution. That doesn't stop it from being absolute fact.

Well, nuclear fission can transform elements. Who is it to say that animals can't do the same?

How subtle could it be? Surely it couldn't be so subtle that the scientists who study this couldn't tell. And if you can't tell and there is no hard evidence why should we believe it and why is it called fact. Even I have evidence for my religious claims (watch the second vid I posted about Israel, Islam and Armageddon).

Well i don't know much about nuclear fission. But what do you mean by transforming elements?

Scientists do tell, and they have catalogued the changes over millions of years across hundreds of thousands of species. Because you are not familiar with them does not make evolution untrue.

Neither do I, but supposedly the change in the number of atoms resulting from nuclear decay "transforms" an element into another. If, according to scientist, science laws are universal I don't why animals couldn't decay into another.

Another thing would be looking more close at intelligent design but whatever isn't in the mainstream isn't worth investigating according to some.

Exactly.

Link

Seriously though, as much as fundies like to talk about it, hell is barely mentioned in the bible.

Most of the modern perception on hell comes from Dante's inferno which is a fictional work and not part of the religion.

So when I hear people say untrue things about what the bible says on hell I just assume they're dumb.

What in the world is the guy in the video smoking? Allah is not the moon God, Allah is the Arabic for God. Even Arab Christians use the term Allah when referring to God. I also, find it amusing that this guy is bashing Arab countries and turns a blind eye to the Israeli Government demolishing homes of innocent Palestinians in the West Bank and leaving innocent Palestinians homeless and forcefully occupying and building settlements in the West Bank. Both sides has faults but according to this guy Israel is a saint and can do no harm.

Evolution is real.

Just take a look at modern chickens, cows in denmark, and the list can keep going on and on. We've done selective breading to induce evolution on species we consume it's right fucking there in front of you, for all those morons who think other wise.