When do you think human life begins?

I would say that the most logical point would be when the fetus would not be considered clinically dead vis-à-vis its vital signs if it were a human who had already been born.

That said, I know very well that this debate never goes anywhere, so I'm not really interested in discussing the matter terribly deeply.

GabuEx

A fetus has a heartbeat at approx. 42 days.

[QUOTE="deepdreamer256"]

I'm sorry, but that removed any chance you would have of having a constructive argument from me. Take your ad hominem (profanity removed) to somewhere it is deemed acceptable.blackregiment

Then how about Planned Parenthood. That was the stated intent of Margaret Sanger, its founder.

Those that fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="deepdreamer256"]

Oh, to answer your last question, I believe euthanasia is sometimes justified, especially when someone approaching death (focusing on the elderly) is experiencing diabolical pain. You should probably ask the elderly that question, though - about a 50:50 split down my family.

deepdreamer256

So are you saying that family members can get together and "vote" on whether to pull the plug on an elderly person ora terminally ill person?

By the way, there is a law that addresses the right to life, God's Moral Law. That concept of God is a lie. Whether or not it was written by a fake God does not make it different from the US consitution.

As for how I know that a fetus can't emphasize. I know because of Science.

deepdreamer256

Evidence please?Outwardness. If an individual is sentient, it is only fitting to assume it would display outward gestures that show self-awarity. In the case of a fetus it just doesn't seem to do that, it just kind of, you know, sits there. (Albeit at the end it begins kicking around alot, although it's questionable whether that is voluntary or instinctive.) That's not to mention that it's brain isn't fully formed at that age, and the parts of the brain that have been shown by scientific research to control concious thought (the cerebellum, I believe) aren't really active.

That might not matter to a religious zealot like you,

deepdreamer256

No need for personal insults.You are ashamed of being dedicated to your faith? It is true though, because of your ideals you can't understand that kind of viewpoint.

I refuse to discuss anything with anyone that comingles their comments with mine. It is confusing for others to determine who said what.

I do not want your comments to be confused with what I have written.

I'm sorry, but that removed any chance you would have of having a constructive argument from me. Take your ad hominem (profanity removed) to somewhere it is deemed acceptable.deepdreamer256

Then how about Planned Parenthood. That was the stated intent of Margaret Sanger, its founder.

Those that fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

Planned parenthood is planned by the state, the choice of whether to give life is planned by the individual. It's pretty (profanity removed) different, if you ask me. And I concur that planned parenthood is a Hitler-esque fascist mostrosity.deepdreamer256

[QUOTE="deepdreamer256"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="deepdreamer256"]

Oh, to answer your last question, I believe euthanasia is sometimes justified, especially when someone approaching death (focusing on the elderly) is experiencing diabolical pain. You should probably ask the elderly that question, though - about a 50:50 split down my family.

blackregiment

So are you saying that family members can get together and "vote" on whether to pull the plug on an elderly person ora terminally ill person?

By the way, there is a law that addresses the right to life, God's Moral Law. That concept of God is a lie. Whether or not it was written by a fake God does not make it different from the US consitution.

As for how I know that a fetus can't emphasize. I know because of Science.

deepdreamer256

Evidence please?Outwardness. If an individual is sentient, it is only fitting to assume it would display outward gestures that show self-awarity. In the case of a fetus it just doesn't seem to do that, it just kind of, you know, sits there. (Albeit at the end it begins kicking around alot, although it's questionable whether that is voluntary or instinctive.) That's not to mention that it's brain isn't fully formed at that age, and the parts of the brain that have been shown by scientific research to control concious thought (the cerebellum, I believe) aren't really active.

That might not matter to a religious zealot like you,

deepdreamer256

No need for personal insults.You are ashamed of being dedicated to your faith? It is true though, because of your ideals you can't understand that kind of viewpoint.

I refuse to discuss anything with anyone that comingles their comments with mine. It is confusing for others to determine who said what.

I do not want your comments to be confused with what I have written.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"][QUOTE="deepdreamer256"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="deepdreamer256"]

Oh, to answer your last question, I believe euthanasia is sometimes justified, especially when someone approaching death (focusing on the elderly) is experiencing diabolical pain. You should probably ask the elderly that question, though - about a 50:50 split down my family.

deepdreamer256

So are you saying that family members can get together and "vote" on whether to pull the plug on an elderly person ora terminally ill person?

By the way, there is a law that addresses the right to life, God's Moral Law. That concept of God is a lie. Whether or not it was written by a fake God does not make it different from the US consitution.

As for how I know that a fetus can't emphasize. I know because of Science.

deepdreamer256

Evidence please?Outwardness. If an individual is sentient, it is only fitting to assume it would display outward gestures that show self-awarity. In the case of a fetus it just doesn't seem to do that, it just kind of, you know, sits there. (Albeit at the end it begins kicking around alot, although it's questionable whether that is voluntary or instinctive.) That's not to mention that it's brain isn't fully formed at that age, and the parts of the brain that have been shown by scientific research to control concious thought (the cerebellum, I believe) aren't really active.

That might not matter to a religious zealot like you,

deepdreamer256

No need for personal insults.You are ashamed of being dedicated to your faith? It is true though, because of your ideals you can't understand that kind of viewpoint.

I refuse to discuss anything with anyone that comingles their comments with mine. It is confusing for others to determine who said what.

I do not want your comments to be confused with what I have written.

You have your way of doing things and I have mine. The quote system is there for a purpose and works quite well.

A fetus has a heartbeat at approx. 42 days.

http://www.drapplebaum.com/pregnancy.html#WHEN%20SHOULD%20A%20HEARTBEAT%20BE%20DETECTED?blackregiment

I know, and that's pretty much exactly the sort of thing that I'm talking about.

It is completely abstract.

The term human is completely abstract, well of course apart from biologically speaking.

This whole argument is laughable, tryimg to pin down an abstract concept into a tangible period of time.

None of us know for sure when life "begins", it's purely a matter of interpretation and Ideology. So it's pointless to argue. You know from the start that the person isn't going to change his/her mind.Trelaf_TheWise

Those of us that believe God's Word know. God has told us.

I believe it begins at conception. What do you think?blackregiment

It's nice to see that you've become less obnoxious and more willing to listen (Or so it seems) in this thread. For this I commend you.

To answer your question, I think that human life began with the first mutation of the DNA to form what is known as humanity. I'm sorry if this goes against your beliefs, but I respect your opinion (Now atleast :P) and so you should respect mine.

[QUOTE="deepdreamer256"]

I'm sorry, but that removed any chance you would have of having a constructive argument from me. Take your ad hominem (profanity removed) to somewhere it is deemed acceptable.blackregiment

Then how about Planned Parenthood. That was the stated intent of Margaret Sanger, its founder.

Those that fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

[QUOTE="Trelaf_TheWise"]None of us know for sure when life "begins", it's purely a matter of interpretation and Ideology. So it's pointless to argue. You know from the start that the person isn't going to change his/her mind.blackregiment

Those of us that believe God's Word know. God has told us.

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

Sigh. Looks like I was wrong. So when did God tell you this? Yesterday? This afternoon? A week ago? Please enlighten us as to how you were given this precious information.

When the featus reaches viability.helium_flash

Then if a person harms a fetus and it dies, would you suggest that that person would not be guilty of murder or manslaughter if the fetus has not reached viability? Just wondering.

...Seriously, though, who would confuse your comments for mine when mine are in bold. It's not like people on this forum are colourblind.deepdreamer256

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]A fetus has a heartbeat at approx. 42 days.

GabuEx

I know, and that's pretty much exactly the sort of thing that I'm talking about.

[QUOTE="Trelaf_TheWise"]None of us know for sure when life "begins", it's purely a matter of interpretation and Ideology. So it's pointless to argue. You know from the start that the person isn't going to change his/her mind.blackregiment

Those of us that believe God's Word know. God has told us.

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

See, that's my point. That's something that YOU personally believe and other people don't. Posting scripture isn't going to persuade anybody who disagrees with you...

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="Trelaf_TheWise"]None of us know for sure when life "begins", it's purely a matter of interpretation and Ideology. So it's pointless to argue. You know from the start that the person isn't going to change his/her mind.KOTORkicker

Those of us that believe God's Word know. God has told us.

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

Sigh. Looks like I was wrong. So when did God tell you this? Yesterday? This afternoon? A week ago? Please enlighten us as to how you were given this precious information.

He told us in His revealed Word. Read and study it and you will see.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="Trelaf_TheWise"]None of us know for sure when life "begins", it's purely a matter of interpretation and Ideology. So it's pointless to argue. You know from the start that the person isn't going to change his/her mind.Trelaf_TheWise

Those of us that believe God's Word know. God has told us.

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

See, that's my point. That's something that YOU personally believe and other people don't. Posting scripture isn't going to persuade anybody who disagrees with you...

That is their free will choice. By the way, the truth does not depend on us to be true. We do not determine truth.

[QUOTE="helium_flash"]When the featus reaches viability.blackregiment

Then if a person harms a fetus and it dies, would you suggest that that person would not be guilty of murder or manslaughter if the fetus has not reached viability? Just wondering.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"][QUOTE="deepdreamer256"]

I'm sorry, but that removed any chance you would have of having a constructive argument from me. Take your ad hominem (profanity removed) to somewhere it is deemed acceptable.deepdreamer256

Then how about Planned Parenthood. That was the stated intent of Margaret Sanger, its founder.

Those that fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

Planned Parenthood is not a government entity.

blackregiment

(blasphemy removed), so that's what planned parenthood is. Well, I'm no supporter of eugenics, I'll have you know. What if I don't want to argue against someone who constantly attempts to liken me to a person I don't associate my ideas with in the first place? Well, I don't, so good night. deepdreamer256

I didn't "liken you" to anyone. I simply pointed out that Planned Parenthood was founded on certain premises that happen to concur with the opinions you expressed.

Please stop co-mingling your comments with mine. It is very confusing to others and makes responding difficult. Why won't you comply with this simple request? Three people have now asked you to use the quote system.

I think organisms that are not self aware are sub-human, and therefore are allowed to be killed. Animals, for example, although cruelty is not at all necessary. The only exception to this rule is babies, but unborn fetuses, only recently concieved (dont support late abortion)... its fair game.smarb001

How are we defining self-aware?

I think organisms that are not self aware are sub-human, and therefore are allowed to be killed. Animals, for example, although cruelty is not at all necessary. The only exception to this rule is babies, but unborn fetuses, only recently concieved (dont support late abortion)... its fair game.smarb001

So if someone is in a coma, suffering from mental illness, or asleep. and therefore unaware, are they "fair game"too?

[QUOTE="smarb001"]I think organisms that are not self aware are sub-human, and therefore are allowed to be killed. Animals, for example, although cruelty is not at all necessary. The only exception to this rule is babies, but unborn fetuses, only recently concieved (dont support late abortion)... its fair game.GabuEx

How are we defining self-aware?

Got me there :P By non-self aware I mean animal-like, not thinking, only instinct. Self aware beings such as humans ponder their own existence, examine the world around them, and express raw emotions like love and sorrow like no other living thing can. Ugh, hard to explain.

[QUOTE="smarb001"]I think organisms that are not self aware are sub-human, and therefore are allowed to be killed. Animals, for example, although cruelty is not at all necessary. The only exception to this rule is babies, but unborn fetuses, only recently concieved (dont support late abortion)... its fair game.blackregiment

So if someone is in a coma, suffering from mental illness, or asleep. and therefore unaware, are they "fair game"too?

Read my reply to Gabu for detail on what I mean by self aware. Coma and asleep dont really apply.

Mental illness is arguable. I don't wanna get into it.

it never begins,we're not really alive it's just one big tax dodgemarkop2003

Got me there :P By non-self aware I mean animal-like, not thinking, only instinct. Self aware beings such as humans ponder their own existence, examine the world around them, and express raw emotions like love and sorrow like no other living thing can. Ugh, hard to explain.

smarb001

Wouldn't that make all humans sub-human until they start to ask questions about the world?

Its past life an Karma ... You be a good good guy guy you get to be Winner

you be a bad guy an your are a slug ...

Sorry my double word post

I got shot , destroyed my vision...

Those pesky UN an the Balkans :( :(

this poll is rigged considering the gigantic amount of christians on these forums.mistervengeance

No it is not. Many people ponder this question, be they religious or secular?

I would like to pose a question since opinions on when life begins, differ. Do posters here feel that it is safe to leave the determination of when life begins to the government in power at the time? blackregiment

yes....

if they have the power to determine MUCH MUCH MORE important things, then yes. without a doubt.

i don't understand why abortion is such a big issue today. roe vs. wade stands after 4 conservative republicans have been president since 1973 and nothing has been done to change that.

much much bigger issues stand before us, the economy, the war, etc.

i don't think we should be spending time bickering over a bunch of religious people who think their standpoint makes more sense than the SUPREME COURT.

i mean come on, who are we to say that the freaking supreme court is wrong?

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]I would like to pose a question since opinions on when life begins, differ. Do posters here feel that it is safe to leave the determination of when life begins to the government in power at the time? mistervengeance

yes....

if they have the power to determine MUCH MUCH MORE important things, then yes. without a doubt.

i don't understand why abortion is such a big issue today. roe vs. wade stands after 4 conservative republicans have been president since 1973 and nothing has been done to change that.

much much bigger issues stand before us, the economy, the war, etc.

i don't think we should be spending time bickering over a bunch of religious people who think their standpoint makes more sense than the SUPREME COURT.

i mean come on, who are we to say that the freaking supreme court is wrong?

Your whole argument is based on the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority and begging the question. Do you really think that the Supreme Court justices are infallible? Judges are human and make mistakes. Consider the Dred Scott decision.

I also noticed your sig. Since you seem to think the government and the Supreme Court is infallible, then it logically follows that you must feel that any administration, including the current one, is as well.

Finally, I do not accept your premise that any government function is more important than securing the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for every human being, including the unborn. That is why democratic governments are founded.

Does this ring a bell?

[QUOTE="mistervengeance"]this poll is rigged considering the gigantic amount of christians on these forums.blackregiment

No it is not. Many people ponder this question, be they religious or secular?

so you're saying you could take an accurate presidential poll(who will win mccain or obama)

at a toby keith concert in austin, texas?