Rob Woodall On Medicare: 'When Do I Decide I'm Going To Take Care Of Me?'

One: The government having less money to spend is kinda what's gotten us into debt in the first place. Two: Of course not. Three: And taxes aren't stopping you from being rich. Four: :lol: If you think taxes = theft. Five: :lol: Insults are the product of someone with no argument. You really haven't explained how taxing the rich affects you. Theokhoth

No, two wars and the government not spending responsibly is what's got us in this mess.

Over-taxation is theft.

I'm not insulting you, just saying how I feel on the matter of taxation. Take it however you will.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]Name a single time in history where lowering taxes sped up economic development. I'll name one where the polar opposite proved true: The Great Depression.airshocker

It's kind of shocking that you don't believe that me, as a consumer, can spend my money much better than the government can. Aren't I stimulating the economy when I buy things...?

That's your opinion, not mine.

This thread just reminds me how good the Clinton Era was :cry:

But not to the millions who need it. But they're not rich, so they don't matter to you.Theokhoth

Why do you automatically assume when I say less welfare I mean cutting people off? I actually meant people getting off welfare because they found jobs.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]One: The government having less money to spend is kinda what's gotten us into debt in the first place. Two: Of course not. Three: And taxes aren't stopping you from being rich. Four: :lol: If you think taxes = theft. Five: :lol: Insults are the product of someone with no argument. You really haven't explained how taxing the rich affects you. airshocker

No, two wars and the government not spending responsibly is what's got us in this mess.

Over-taxation is theft.

I'm not insulting you, just saying how I feel on the matter of taxation. Take it however you will.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]Jokes right? Taxes pay for education, healthcare, welfare, streets, military... And you dont care because they dont effect you? :lol:airshocker

Obviously I'm talking about welfare.

I can explain how he thinks they affect him with a quote from John Steinbeck. "Socialism never took root in America, because the poor saw themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but temporarily embarrassed millionaires." I think that can apply to a lot of people in America poor or middle-class.white_wolf922

He has the right to an opinion. That's not how I feel on the matter.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]But not to the millions who need it. But they're not rich, so they don't matter to you.airshocker

Why do you automatically assume when I say less welfare I mean cutting people off? I actually meant people getting off welfare because they found jobs.

You don't seem to mind taking MY money and everyone else's when you fill your tank up at the gas pump.HoolaHoopMan

Apparently I'm not.

Define "over-taxation." If billionaires are taxed the same as those living on social security then yeah, it's theft to the ones on social security; if billionaires and the people on ss are taxed relative to the amount they make, however, then that can hardly be called "overtaxation."Theokhoth

Taxing someone anywhere near 50% of what they earn. And depending on which state you live in, that's pretty much happening.

I do support a progressive taxation system, because it's obvious that some people should be taxed based on what they make. But I think there is definitely a point where we abuse that system.

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]You don't seem to mind taking MY money and everyone else's when you fill your tank up at the gas pump.airshocker

Apparently I'm not.

Which they can't do, because it's not this magic process you seem to think it is. Hell, some companies won't even hire someone who's unemployed.Theokhoth

Then obviously just handing them a check every month isn't working and we need to try something else.

Just looking for some consistency here. If you buy gas in the US you're directly taking government money in the form of subsidies. Hell just by shopping at the grocery store you're raiding the government coffers. Every item in there is cheaper in price for you due to government subsidies. HoolaHoopMan

And as I already said, apparently I'm not. I've been enlightened to the fact that subsidies aren't affecting the price of gasoline in this country.

And they actually don't receive money from the government. They receive tax breaks.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]Which they can't do, because it's not this magic process you seem to think it is. Hell, some companies won't even hire someone who's unemployed.airshocker

Then obviously just handing them a check every month isn't working and we need to try something else.

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]Just looking for some consistency here. If you buy gas in the US you're directly taking government money in the form of subsidies. Hell just by shopping at the grocery store you're raiding the government coffers. Every item in there is cheaper in price for you due to government subsidies. airshocker

And as I already said, apparently I'm not. I've been enlightened to the fact that subsidies aren't affecting the price of gasoline in this country.

And they actually don't receive money from the government. They receive tax breaks.

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]Just looking for some consistency here. If you buy gas in the US you're directly taking government money in the form of subsidies. Hell just by shopping at the grocery store you're raiding the government coffers. Every item in there is cheaper in price for you due to government subsidies. airshocker

And as I already said, apparently I'm not. I've been enlightened to the fact that subsidies aren't affecting the price of gasoline in this country.

And they actually don't receive money from the government. They receive tax breaks.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]Define "over-taxation." If billionaires are taxed the same as those living on social security then yeah, it's theft to the ones on social security; if billionaires and the people on ss are taxed relative to the amount they make, however, then that can hardly be called "overtaxation."airshocker

Taxing someone anywhere near 50% of what they earn. And depending on which state you live in, that's pretty much happening.

I do support a progressive taxation system, because it's obvious that some people should be taxed based on what they make. But I think there is definitely a point where we abuse that system.

Here's alittle fun fact: My grandparents are retired and far too brittle to work, so they live on ss and medicare; my mother, who is disabled, cannot work and also lives on ss and medicare as well as food stamps; I can work but nobody will currently hire me so I get no benefits whatsoever. All four of us are at very high risk of living in a box come this October. Without Medicare or Social Security or other welfare, they would all die. That is not an exaggeration. My grandfather just got a pacemaker installed on his heart last week. My mother's home is at risk of foreclosure. My grandmother was recently diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. I'm the only one who can work, but not even McDonald's will look at my application for whatever reason they have. Without their medicine, which is paid for by medicare, they would be dead. Without their doctors, they would be dead. Without ss and food stamps, they would be dead. I might survive on the streets long enough to become a prostitute before I killed myself. THERE ARE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN THIS EXACT SAME SCENARIO.Theokhoth

Then guess what? Pick your a** up and move to Minot, ND where they're looking for able-bodied men to work on the oil rigs. They don't even CARE about your education, so long as you have a high-school diploma and aren't afraid to get dirty. Did I mention these rig hands are making almost 100k a year?

I do feel bad for you, Theo, but don't think that's going to change my opinion on matters.

Such as?Theokhoth

I don't know. I wish I had the answer.

I don't get this whole argument that 50% tax rates on the rich are too low. As I pointed out before when we had higher tax rates in the 70-90% range for the top income brackets, our economy did much better than we did with lower tax rates.

Tax break=money from government. Big bad government needs to go, unless it helps keep YOUR wallet padded. You **** about people on welfare yet you reap government benefits. There's a lot more than gas that the government subsidizes too.

HoolaHoopMan

No, a tax break is NOT paying that money to the government. You're not taking it from them.

Only some parts of government need to go. Not the entire thing. What government benefits do I reap that those on welfare don't?

I've always been for cutting subsidies. Now I'm for cutting ALL of them.

I don't get this whole argument that 50% tax rates on the rich are too low. As I pointed out before when we had higher tax rates in the 70-90% range for the top income brackets, our economy did much better than we did with lower tax rates.

white_wolf922

If you're making two billion dollars a year then you still have a billion dollars after that fifty percent rate.Theokhoth

And why does the government have the right to THAT much of your money?

[QUOTE="white_wolf922"]

I don't get this whole argument that 50% tax rates on the rich are too low. As I pointed out before when we had higher tax rates in the 70-90% range for the top income brackets, our economy did much better than we did with lower tax rates.

DroidPhysX

Well, for starters the whole giving tax breaks to the rich haven't worked at all. Secondly most of the poor work much harder than the rich. A couple working two jobs each trying to raise their kids works much harder and is much more worthy of respect than a Wall street banker or CEO.white_wolf922

In your opinion.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="white_wolf922"]

I don't get this whole argument that 50% tax rates on the rich are too low. As I pointed out before when we had higher tax rates in the 70-90% range for the top income brackets, our economy did much better than we did with lower tax rates.

white_wolf922

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]If you're making two billion dollars a year then you still have a billion dollars after that fifty percent rate.airshocker

And why does the government have the right to THAT much of your money?

"Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all cases, that where the former do not exist the latter cannot be obtained. All accumulation, therefore, of personal property, beyond what a man's own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part of that accumulation back again to society from whence the whole came.

This is putting the matter on a general principle, and perhaps it is best to do so; for if we examine the case minutely it will be found that the accumulation of personal property is, in many instances, the effect of paying too little for the labor that produced it; the consequence of which is that the working hand perishes in old age, and the employer abounds in affluence.

It is, perhaps, impossible to proportion exactly the price of labor to the profits it produces; and it will also be said, as an apology for the injustice, that were a workman to receive an increase of wages daily he would not save it against old age, nor be much better for it in the interim. Make, then, society the treasurer to guard it for him in a common fund; for it is no reason that, because he might not make a good use of it for himself, another should take it."

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

Tax break=money from government. Big bad government needs to go, unless it helps keep YOUR wallet padded. You **** about people on welfare yet you reap government benefits. There's a lot more than gas that the government subsidizes too.

airshocker

No, a tax break is NOT paying that money to the government. You're not taking it from them.

Only some parts of government need to go. Not the entire thing. What government benefits do I reap that those on welfare don't?

I've always been for cutting subsidies. Now I'm for cutting ALL of them.

The end result is the same, a loss on the end of the government. We're giving them a free ride while discriminating against other companies. The difference is moot and our government loses money as a result.

I never said you reap more than those on welfare, I said that you reap benefits AS WELL, as in they aren't just the only ones leaching. Like I said I'm looking for a little consistency, and if you really are for ending all subsidies you're on the right track. But until then the rhetoric you tend to throw around about people getting government handouts sounds a bit hollow.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="white_wolf922"] Well, for starters the whole giving tax breaks to the rich haven't worked at all. Secondly most of the poor work much harder than the rich. A couple working two jobs each trying to raise their kids works much harder and is much more worthy of respect than a Wall street banker or CEO. white_wolf922

Because it wealth is not created on your own. It is the creation of society. Here is what Thomas Paine says on the topic of taxes and wealth creation. Sorry it is a long quote.

"Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all cases, that where the former do not exist the latter cannot be obtained. All accumulation, therefore, of personal property, beyond what a man's own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part of that accumulation back again to society from whence the whole came.

This is putting the matter on a general principle, and perhaps it is best to do so; for if we examine the case minutely it will be found that the accumulation of personal property is, in many instances, the effect of paying too little for the labor that produced it; the consequence of which is that the working hand perishes in old age, and the employer abounds in affluence.

It is, perhaps, impossible to proportion exactly the price of labor to the profits it produces; and it will also be said, as an apology for the injustice, that were a workman to receive an increase of wages daily he would not save it against old age, nor be much better for it in the interim. Make, then, society the treasurer to guard it for him in a common fund; for it is no reason that, because he might not make a good use of it for himself, another should take it."

white_wolf922

And I'm not arguing that no taxes should be paid, or that without society there would be no wealth. I just don't believe that we owe all the fruits of our labor to society.

The end result is the same, a loss on the end of the government. We're giving them a free ride while discriminating against other companies. The difference is moot and our government loses money as a result.

I never said you reap more than those on welfare, I said that you reap benefits AS WELL, as in they aren't just the only ones leaching. Like I said I'm looking for a little consistency, and if you really are for ending all subsidies you're on the right track. But until then the rhetoric you tend to throw around about people getting government handouts sounds a bit hollow.

HoolaHoopMan

True, but it's not giving money to the oil companies, which a lot of people don't know.

I know I get certain benefits. I pay for them. Those on welfare don't. That's the difference.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="white_wolf922"] Wow. That is the problem with America today. CEOs aren't worthy of a a tenth of the respect of a working family. I'll never understand America's obsession with the rich. white_wolf922

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="white_wolf922"] Wow. That is the problem with America today. CEOs aren't worthy of a a tenth of the respect of a working family. I'll never understand America's obsession with the rich. white_wolf922

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="white_wolf922"] Do you know he doesn't work as hard as most people in America? He doesn't and his children will never have to work a day in their life. Fine, you want to praise his work ethic? Let's see his kids do it. When he dies tax all his money and let's see how his kids do. white_wolf922

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="white_wolf922"] You realize a lot of Apple's products are made in foreign sweat shops correct? His profit comes from exploitation, of course exploitation is the root of capitalism and I despise that system. white_wolf922

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="white_wolf922"] If you think that then you really don't understand the philosophy behind socialism or Marxism. white_wolf922

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="white_wolf922"] If you think that then you really don't understand the philosophy behind socialism or Marxism. white_wolf922

[QUOTE="white_wolf922"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] Lol, do you even know how Steve Jobs built Apple? Nibroc420

To be fair Edison really didn't invent much. He hired others to invent in his name.

The super rich don't pay 50% of their income in taxes. If they did, we'd probably be a lot better off. Due to many loopholes in the tax system, generally the super rich only pay 15-25% of their total income after all their tax breaks, deductions, write-offs, etc.

Compare that to a middle class family that actually does pay 40% of their income to taxes because they're above welfare levels but don't have the ability to exploit the tax code like the super rich.

Raising tax rates on the rich won't amount to much, what they need to do is make it harder to reduce taxes through legal loopholes.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="white_wolf922"] Corporations exist solely to make profits. They will do anything to make more money. That is why they exist. That is destructive and selfish. Speaking of CEOs a fairly large percent of them are actually clinical sociopaths. Of course, so are plenty of politicians. white_wolf922

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

The end result is the same, a loss on the end of the government. We're giving them a free ride while discriminating against other companies. The difference is moot and our government loses money as a result.

I never said you reap more than those on welfare, I said that you reap benefits AS WELL, as in they aren't just the only ones leaching. Like I said I'm looking for a little consistency, and if you really are for ending all subsidies you're on the right track. But until then the rhetoric you tend to throw around about people getting government handouts sounds a bit hollow.

airshocker

True, but it's not giving money to the oil companies, which a lot of people don't know.

I know I get certain benefits. I pay for them. Those on welfare don't. That's the difference.