[QUOTE="m0zart"][QUOTE="Ace6301"]Also the Orcs aren't really altruistic under Rand's ideas anyway since they don't do thing for the good of others they do what they do because destruction is literally the only thing they're capable of. But I'm not sure how much that is really touched on so perhaps he just doesn't understand that part about Orcs. Ace6301
I am not suggesting that the Orcs were altruistic (though there is some hint of that at least from Rand's perspective, simply due to the fact that the live and operate in a worker-bee sort of colony and submit themselves to a structure that requires them to be treated as meaningless brute force).
I was stating that Frodo giving up everything for the Orcs would have been an act of unquestionable altruism from Rand's perspective. In the same vein, she was asked once why she would spend any money to save her husband if her husband was taken ill and the money would be a considerable sacrifice. She said her husband is a high value in her life, and so within certain boundaries of reason, giving the money to save him is an act that benefits her as much as him. She values him more than the money and what it buys. However, she pointed out that if someone expected her to let her own husband die so she could save her neighbor's husband with that same money, that's altruism.
Anyway my purpose isn't to defend Rand. I am relatively sure Tolkien didn't intend even an once of Rand's definitions or values to reflect in his book, which is more of a tale about his own life and feelings after the effects of the wars he experienced took away part of his own ability to enjoy the pleasures of life.
I know you weren't saying the orcs are altruists, that was Lai. Rand's ideas just really aren't worth applying to things other than her books to me which is why I ignored the Frodo comment. They really are largely ideas that require a world set around them to function and without that they generally just come off as ridiculous misconceptions about human nature and actions. Side comment on how it's kind of creepy to assign a value to human lives. So you would rather human lives be without value? That is absurd. And as M0zart has expertly demonstrated, the principles of Objectivism are applicable to many things other than Ayn Rand's books, such as Lord of the Rings.
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