Do you think Michael Jackson "did it?"

Where there's smoke, there's fire.

Sure he was found not guilty in his criminal trial but he also paid off individuals well before. Something was obviously not right.

Well he's innocent until proven guilty, so he didn't do it.

BUT, I still think he did it and paid someone to cover it up. Take Prince Andrew for example

don't think that holds much weight, people can set you on fire.

i dont know enough about it either way tbh, haven't seen anything irrefutable to prove one way or the other. he was a childhood hero of mine so i hope it's not true.

what do you think cup?

Michael Jackson is as much a victim as he is a perpetrator, if he did it.

I feel bad for him, he had a really screwed up childhood. The stories about his dad and upbringing are just crazy. I know what the justice system says about being presumed innocent until proven guilty, but I honestly think the question we should be asking (now, in hindsight) is how we can help people like him who have been so warped by their family, standards, and wealth.

That's not to say I don't think the alleged victims shouldn't get their day in court against their attackers, nor am I trying to call the alleged victims liars. I'm not even saying I think Jackson is innocent; there's a lot of evidence. At the very least, a lot of what he did was highly inappropriate.

But the guy was groomed to be this way.

I don't particularly like Jackson. I always thought he was creepy, even as a kid, and his voice and music never really appealed to me. I've disliked pop music pretty much my whole life, with some exceptions (damn you, Spin Doctors!). So I'm viewing this about as objectively as any non-lawyer armchair non-expert can 😋 More of a Janet Jackson fan, to be frank.

Does anyone remember the HBO documentary that came out? What was the name? I might actually watch that. I heard it's pretty insightful.

Yeah the cynic in me just wants to say "Of course he did it. One part messed up childhood plus two parts wealth plus two parts obscene fame equals sexual assaults covered up".

My default attitude is blame the wealthy. of course they did it 😋

Mean, we had Jimmy Savile over here didn't we? And Rolfy Harris. Both portrayed as saints who spend most of their time hanging around little kids.

At the same time, well aware of the case of Napper, where, they judged Colin Stagg to have done it purely on the basis that they viewed him as "abit of an oddball", and "around at the time", while Robert Napper was happily out and about commiting crimes, including but not limited to to his own mother, who contacted the police that he was rapist, the police wasted time and resources, along with obvious entrapment on Colin Stagg where millions were wasted and it was immediately thrown out of court.

Video if you're interested but not really for the faint of heart.

We also had a repeat of this much later with Christopher Jefferies, completely innocent guy, judged on being an odd-ball. Not just the police, but terrorize by British press.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Joanna_Yeates

Both cases these guys lives were ruined. Both suing and deserving payback.

So yea, to answer you're question while MJ was kind of a fucking weirdo, by kind of, I mean "alot", from those two crime cases reluctant to judge a book on its cover.

So, donno. Saw the docs afterwards, people saying he done all this horrible shit seemed quite convincing though. Didn't get the impression they were lying, but then some folk are good lairs.

Indeed. Once a person has so much power, fame, and money... feels like they are invincible. Shame the truth never unraveled.

That dude literally lived in a different world. He would pay to have a grocery store all to himself, and walk around saying "hey" to the employees like they were actually his friends. So it's hard to expect someone who's not in our world to act with any concern for the rules of our world.

At the end of the day, he added more color and joy to this world than most people ever will. If the price for all that amazing entertainment was a few trips to browntown... so be it.

B doesn't follow A.

Anyway, it was more than one case, he didn't stop his behavior which an innocent person would have done. I think he was guilty for sure.

Yeah I think he did it. I also believe that he’s still alive and that he faked his death.

From the little I know of the case and that fact that he was pretty messed up, I think he most likely did it.

Yeah, I didn't read up about it back in the day. When that documentary came out about MJ's allegations, it seemed quite convincing.

No, I don't think he did it. He was very sensitive and he looked like a freak which is enough on its own to be targeted by bigots, and he was also rich and famous, so there was money to be milked as well. And they sure milked him, till he had enough of it, took it to the court and won.

I don't know the details, so I can't say for sure. Great music though.

I don't know, man. There's the fact that one of the people who sued him for 'abusing' his son was heard by several saying he was just doing it for the money.

Which I can totally see. And one reason I wouldn't want to ever be famous.

As for Michael himself, it's hard to decide if he was actually a pervert or just a literal Peter Pan. I honestly learn toward the latter, but even if it's the former that guy was never right in the mind.

Were I pushed to choose (and I hate to say this as a MJ fan), I’d have to say yes.

I‘ve heard all the details, but there’s one thing I can’t reconcile in order to give MJ the benefit of the doubt: he always seemed to have held prominent relationships with young boys. People know of them, but was there ever any relations with girls? If the defense of his proximity to children is that he never got to be one himself and he wanted to recapture his childhood, then I don’t understand why he’d hold such predominant favorability to one sex. It was always boys that he showered his attentions upon. That, above all else, strikes me suspicious.

If anything, I find his effusive attentions to children inappropriate on the whole, and his proximity and the nature of his relationships trespassed on boundaries that should always exist and remain between adults and children. As an adult, you don’t have sleepovers with kids. You don’t have pillow fights and accord them as emotional peers, which MJ did. They’re not, they’re children, and “I didn’t have a childhood“ is no excuse.

So yeah, I believe he probably did, and if he didn’t, he made his bed and had to lay in it from the irresponsibility and naïveté of his choices, so my sympathies to the crap he endured were he innocent is minimal.

Hard to say, as I wasn't much of a Michael Jackson fan and I was more of a fan of Prince anyway. I have heard there's going to be a Michael Jackson biopic movie about him. So I reckon they'll talk about it if he's guilty or not.

I have no idea if he was a pedophile or not, but I like to think he was a better person than that. It doesn't look good, but him being a pedophile and parents just telling their kids to say that in order to get money is about equally likely, I'd say. MJ was a weirdo, and people are greedy assholes.

I never watched anything news related, much less look into his case (particularly because I was a child), but from the videos I’ve seen of him in interviews talking about his place and the children invited, it’s definitely uncomfortable to watch and something is definitely off. Of course I would hope he didn’t, but based off his comments, it’s hard not to think he was in fact guilty.

@MirkoS77 I believe pedophiles predominantly molest children of the same sex. That could be why he was so fond of young boys. I don’t recall the percentages, but it’s in my book that talks about sexual exploitation, as it’s a topic I’ve been studying over the course of the past handful of months.

@uninspiredcup: beyond rolf and jimmy wasnt aware of any of that stuff in your post. ta dude. i'll give that vid a watch

Maybe he was just really into sleeping with children.

Not guilty doesn't mean innocent.

@Macutchi: Yea, worth a watch but not happy hour for sure. Shocking crime from a sick ****, but just the absolute stupidity of the police was next level.

Even when Colin Stagg was absolutely cleared by the court one of them in the doc happily admits they still think he done it based on nothing and word it as such to the press.

@uninspiredcup: This is an interesting read as well came across after posting that, has lots of clippings from the usual suspects at the time as well.

https://reprobatepress.com/2021/02/22/making-a-monster-the-scapegoating-of-colin-stagg/

I don't think he did it, I just think it's easy for people to see it because he's weird as fuuck and probably does a lot of inappropriate things like making friends with kids and having sleepovers, probably he himself thinking that there's nothing wrong with it because he might know it doesn't have any sexual motivation, but still doesn't understand the inappropriate optics of it regardless. He's largely regarded as being abnormally shy romantically his whole life, and notably as never having any sexual component in his many relationships, though he did seek romantic companionship, just without any sexual component; he was probably asexual. I'm not ruling out he could have done it, just don't think he did.

Yeah, I’ve heard similar. Sets off the meter, and I agree…..watching some of his interviews with boys he was holding hands and nigh cuddling with…..I mean, wtf??

Watching that made me ill. I don’t understand how people were (and are) ok with that as it’s 100% inappropriate contact between an adult and child. The degree of attention that MJ showered on those children is hard to reconcile with supposed innocuous intent. I was groomed by someone when I was young, and that degree of concerted, focused and continual attention comes with expectations of payment. They’re not doing it just because they like you, they’re doing it because they want something.

MJ didn’t just want to have kids to play around with at the arcades and park rides….he wanted full-fledged emotional intimate relationships with these kids. He professed his love for them, and them for him. Fucked up.

When he was acquitted in the Arvizo case, one of the jurors said,”We’re sure he’s molested children, just not this one”.

He used his celebrity to skate on charges and accusations that would have seen you and me in prison for a long time.

He was framed? The families he settled with just wanted to shake him down? Certain things just don't add up and make any sense. Numerous red flags were raised.

No doubt about it, he was a damn good artist.

No he use artificial insemination.

MJ had some screws loose for sure. Childhood trauma.

I think he's a weirdo, do I think he molested kids I don't know. Possible. The weird shit like having kids sleep in his bed is a huge red flag, do feel like some people hopped on the bandwagon to try and get a big pay day out of him.

Totally inappropriate for sure.

Probably not criminal. My opinion only, based upon a lack of evidence and ever changing stories.

Messed up dude, messed up childhood, probably looking for salvation around children. Might have crossed a line, but who really knows at this point. So many people have flip flopped.

He molested me No, I was lying. No, I was lying about lying.

My brother would never do that. Yes my brother is guilty...it all goes back to us being molested by our dad. No I was lying about my brother being guilty...my ex-husband forced me to say that at the time.

Hard to separate fact from fiction at this point. But totally inappropriate at best.

The abused defending their abusers is very common among grooming victims, so I don’t lend much merit to the defense of these kids flip-flopping on their claims. They were very young, naive, impressionable, and were the target of a man who was arguably the biggest superstar on the planet. Who was worshipped like a god by nigh everyone. Could you imagine being showered with attentions by such a person in their prime? That must’ve been an incredibly intimidating and confusing situation to be in, especially if MJ is telling them that no one could ever know about their secret.

When you look up to and revere someone who has such status, I don’t think it’s at all unexpected that their story will change when they eventually get into positions removed where they are out of the whirlwind of stardom and influence. Lying would be expected, and I would be far more suspicious of an accuser who never wavered in their claims. Deception is the nature of such manipulative, long-lasting relationships.

That said, I don’t doubt there were those that saw a fortuitous opportunity for exploitation considering how much MJ placed himself in such a compromised position through his poor choices. He was incredibly foolish if he was indeed innocent, which makes me believe he wasn’t. He knew what he was doing, and thought the Peter Pan defense would exculpate him from suspicion.

So I watched this

Should I watch more stuff about MJ and being guilty or not?

I think if I were looking to go after a celebrity for victim money, then the guy with a big play land for children who acted like a child around them is a pretty easy target. He probably could have gotten himself deeper and deeper into hot water without having the mindset to separate himself from questionable things. Not saying he didn't do it, who knows for certain. But I dunno, Michael Jackson seemed like a friendly guy and preached good things in most of his songs.

The more friendly someone appears, the more cautious you should be.

Yep.

Colin Stagg and Christopher Jefferies prime examples of never judging stuff purely on appearance.

If you look at actual cases of stuff like sex offenders, including children, the trope of dirty old looking man doesn't hold truth.

In fact, look at arguably the most prolific recorded in the UK was doing it since his 20 years odd years old and generally looked like "some rando"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Huckle#Early_life

No, simple as that.

I think yes it is possible,

Like most, I would like to believe he didn't do the crimes he was accused of. Not just because MJ meant a lot to many of us growing up, but because the crimes themselves, if true, were truly heinous and unforgivable.

As MJ is dead and cases were all settled (IIRC) -- and because none of us were there -- we'll never know for sure. That being said, where there's smoke there's almost always fire and MJ proved himself to be a really damaged person over interviews and the many cosmetic procedures he subjected himself to.

The safest approach is to believe victims, and that increases exponentially the more victims you have coming forward. For me, as a black man for whom MJ was the most influential music artist growing up, I believe he did the things he was accused of. I rarely listen to any of his music anymore because of this reason. Sometimes I do to reminisce on childhood days and memories, for which his music is forever intertwined, but that's about it. MJ is dead to me in more ways than one.

It hurts every time I think about him to know that he became this person because you really want people who have added value to your life to be praise-worthy and/or honorable. But as an adult, you have to reconcile with the fact that some people who did good things or otherwise things that positively impacted you were bastards whose graves should be spit on. Whether that's Michael Jackson, your favorite past President (pretty much all war criminals), the British monarchy (don't even get me started), your favorite imperialist nation (yep, they've all been heinous), or your racist parents/grandparents who you tolerate because they're family...all trash.