Do Christians and Muslims worship the same god?

and I wouldnt argue with you on that , but like I said, that part kills it for Jews, the idea of a divine human being simply doesn't compute as far as Jews are concerned. its also why the world Christ doesn't exist in the Hebrew language, Christians are called Notzrim (in reference to Natzeret obviously)Darkman2007

Your acting as I consider the Jewish opinion on this matter of validity. The jewish opinoin has little validity on this subject in my opinion and I think my reasoning for considering Christianity monotheistic, just not unitarian is good. Also the word Christ does exist in hebrew, its called Messiah.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Trinity was an older belief that christianity adapted

Philokalia

I predict Tenaka will provide no compelling evidence for this statement. I predict he is busily at work googling at this very instant, Trinity is pagan.

the whole trinity thing is pagan, get over it your religion is a make up of other beliefs, get over it.

the whole trinity thing is pagan, get over it your religion is a make up of other beliefs, get over it.

tenaka2

Third time Tenaka has made this claim without backing it up.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]and I wouldnt argue with you on that , but like I said, that part kills it for Jews, the idea of a divine human being simply doesn't compute as far as Jews are concerned. its also why the world Christ doesn't exist in the Hebrew language, Christians are called Notzrim (in reference to Natzeret obviously)Philokalia

Your acting as I consider the Jewish opinion on this matter of validity. The jewish opinoin has little validity on this subject in my opinion and I think my reasoning for considering Christianity monotheistic, just not unitarian is good. Also the word Christ does exist in hebrew, its called Messiah.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Trinity was an older belief that christianity adapted

Philokalia

I predict Tenaka will provide no compelling evidence for this statement. I predict he is busily at work googling at this very instant, Trinity is pagan.

Any idiot can discover that the trinity is pagan in origin, what I dont understan is why this is important. Why is your faith so weak, if your communie with god is strong why would it matter.

Why is your faith so stuck in this? Why are you so weak, why are you so pittyful?

why dont you chose to learn the origions of your religion rather then being so static and foolish?

sorry to ruin it for you, but the word does not exist, and yes , I know more about Hebrew than you, I speak it as a mother language, while you don't. as for wheter you consider it a valid opinion , I don't think I asked you to consider it valid, just like I do not consider your opinion as valid.Darkman2007

The word MEssiah does exist in Hebrew sir. Christ is the literal translation of it in the greek, Christ coming from Christos, coming from Chrism, an oil used to annoint, Messiah meaning annointed one yadadada. But I'm glad we agree we do not consider each other's opinoins overall to be valid in this discussion. Which is why I would ask why does the term monotheism (a word not in the Torah mind you) have to be defined along unitarian lines? Or why do you think it should be favoured?

Any idiot can discover that the trinity is pagan in origin, what I dont understan is why this is important. Why is your faith so weak, if your communie with god is strong why would it matter.

Why is your faith so stuck in this? Why are you so weak, why are you so pittyful?

why dont you chose to learn the origions of your religion rather then being so static and foolish?

tenaka2

Fourth time.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] sorry to ruin it for you, but the word does not exist, and yes , I know more about Hebrew than you, I speak it as a mother language, while you don't. as for wheter you consider it a valid opinion , I don't think I asked you to consider it valid, just like I do not consider your opinion as valid.Philokalia

The word MEssiah does exist in Hebrew sir. Christ is the literal translation of it in the greek, Christ coming from Christos, coming from Chrism, an oil used to annoint, Messiah meaning annointed one yadadada. But I'm glad we agree we do not consider each other's opinoins overall to be valid in this discussion. Which is why I would ask why does the term monotheism (a word not in the Torah mind you) have to be defined along unitarian lines? Or why do you think it should be favoured?

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Any idiot can discover that the trinity is pagan in origin, what I dont understan is why this is important. Why is your faith so weak, if your communie with god is strong why would it matter.

Why is your faith so stuck in this? Why are you so weak, why are you so pittyful?

why dont you chose to learn the origions of your religion rather then being so static and foolish?

Philokalia

Fourth time.

lol denied crist. There is nothing, nothing in your religion that hasnt been derived from previous belief, you cannot display one primary source for your religion. You are simply a split of from judiasm little more then a pagan off shoot from judaism. your trinity is a rehash from much older beliefs.

but why does that bother you, isnt your god enough solice? Obviously now.

Your faith is weak.

the Hebrew word for Messiah is Mashiach , not Christ, but sure if you want to use a translation of a translation , go ahead. this , along with the fact Jews never recognised Yeshu as anything more than a normal person, is why Christians are called Notzrim . I don't think I ever said it should be favoured by anybody, I was simply asking if it is a monotheistic religion . although if you ask me personally, the idea of god having a son, or taking the form of a human being is stupid, it reminds me very much of the emperor worship that took place in Egypt or in Rome. but you are of course, free to believe whatever you want, Judaism generally forbids Jews from preaching non Jews about their faiths, so Im not going to bother. you with itDarkman2007

Actually five thousand jews accepted Jesus as the Christ. And Yeah I know Meschiach Messiah, latinization minor point.

Now its interesting that you would compare the sonship of Christ to that of paganism when the two are quite unlike. Christs sonship is eternal not that he was created but that he proceeds from the father from all eternity, as with the Holy ghost. This is why the son is called the son, that is why we are told he is the unique son of God as opposed to general sons and daughters of God which are very much mentioned in the bible.

As for the incarnation the uniqueness of God is still preserved in the hypostatic union. God became man but his divinity did not change into humanity. Rather he now possesses both without confusion or mingling.

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] sorry to ruin it for you, but the word does not exist, and yes , I know more about Hebrew than you, I speak it as a mother language, while you don't. as for wheter you consider it a valid opinion , I don't think I asked you to consider it valid, just like I do not consider your opinion as valid.Darkman2007

The word MEssiah does exist in Hebrew sir. Christ is the literal translation of it in the greek, Christ coming from Christos, coming from Chrism, an oil used to annoint, Messiah meaning annointed one yadadada. But I'm glad we agree we do not consider each other's opinoins overall to be valid in this discussion. Which is why I would ask why does the term monotheism (a word not in the Torah mind you) have to be defined along unitarian lines? Or why do you think it should be favoured?

Christianity is just paganism in another form.

lol denied crist. There is nothing, nothing in your religion that hasnt been derived from previous belief, you cannot display one primary source for your religion. You are simply a split of from judiasm little more then a pagan off shoot from judaism. your trinity is a rehash from much older beliefs.

but why does that bother you, isnt your god enough solice? Obviously now.

Your faith is weak.

tenaka2

Fifth time - No postive reason

Christianity is just paganism in another form.

tenaka2

Sixth time.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Christianity is just paganism in another form.

Philokalia

Sixth time.

I have no idea what you are counting toward.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] the Hebrew word for Messiah is Mashiach , not Christ, but sure if you want to use a translation of a translation , go ahead. this , along with the fact Jews never recognised Yeshu as anything more than a normal person, is why Christians are called Notzrim . I don't think I ever said it should be favoured by anybody, I was simply asking if it is a monotheistic religion . although if you ask me personally, the idea of god having a son, or taking the form of a human being is stupid, it reminds me very much of the emperor worship that took place in Egypt or in Rome. but you are of course, free to believe whatever you want, Judaism generally forbids Jews from preaching non Jews about their faiths, so Im not going to bother. you with itPhilokalia

Actually five thousand jews accepted Jesus as the Christ. And Yeah I know Meschiach Messiah, latinization minor point.

Now its interesting that you would compare the sonship of Christ to that of paganism when the two are quite unlike. Christs sonship is eternal not that he was created but that he proceeds from the father from all eternity, as with the Holy ghost. This is why the son is called the son, that is why we are told he is the unique son of God as opposed to general sons and daughters of God which are very much mentioned in the bible.

As for the incarnation the uniqueness of God is still preserved in the hypostatic union. God became man but his divinity did not change into humanity. Rather he now possesses both without confusion or mingling.

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Christianity is just paganism in another form.

tenaka2

Sixth time.

I have no idea what you are counting toward.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

lol denied crist. There is nothing, nothing in your religion that hasnt been derived from previous belief, you cannot display one primary source for your religion. You are simply a split of from judiasm little more then a pagan off shoot from judaism. your trinity is a rehash from much older beliefs.

but why does that bother you, isnt your god enough solice? Obviously now.

Your faith is weak.

Philokalia

Fifth time - No postive reason

Can you provide a primary source for Jesus lol :D all ai hear is second hand or third hand 'revolations' :D

5000 , big deal . God having a son , blashphemy! :P besides, what are you trying to acomplish here?Darkman2007

God having a son, true. 6 million jews who refuse to acknowledge that son sad. I thought we were having a discussion but I guess not.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] 5000 , big deal . God having a son , blashphemy! :P besides, what are you trying to acomplish here?Philokalia

God having a son, true. 6 million jews who refuse to acknowledge that son sad. I thought we were having a discussion but I guess not.

Ahh you backed off, good pagan you are.

The Jesus that took an Allah... that may offend someone I am sorry. I'll also add. The Allah that took a Jesus, but that doesn't make sense because Islam came after Christianity.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] 5000 , big deal . God having a son , blashphemy! :P besides, what are you trying to acomplish here?Philokalia

God having a son, true. 6 million jews who refuse to acknowledge that son sad. I thought we were having a discussion but I guess not.

Can you provide a primary source for Jesus lol :D all ai hear is second hand or third hand 'revolations' :D

tenaka2

I'm conflicted. Should I present the massive amount of evidence which is clear to virtually every single scholar that there was a historic figure called JEsus of Nazereth who considered himself to be a messiah and Crucified under pontius Pilate and let you ultimately derail the discussion and deflect it away from you having to prove your claims and me having to merely tell you something that virtually every authority, be it conservative or liberal accepts?

Or should I just say your not worth the time? And that you are essentially like a Haulocaust denier? Decisions decision.s

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] 5000 , big deal . God having a son , blashphemy! :P besides, what are you trying to acomplish here?Philokalia

God having a son, true. 6 million jews who refuse to acknowledge that son sad. I thought we were having a discussion but I guess not.

Why's it sad that some peoples religion is different to yours? Most people don't follow your religion, it would be just as logical to say it's sad that you think god did have a son.

toast_burner

Because the God who has done so much for this people specifically has had them turned on him. It is sad from a Christian standpoint as it as sad for Paul. Thats not to suggest it isn't said for others as well however.

correction , 13 million Jews refuse to recognise him as anything more than a false messiah , hell ,I would say Bar Kochba and even Shabbati Ztvi had a bigger impact than Yeshua did. the fact is, Jews do not care about him , I don't even think he is mentioned in any great detail beyond what early Christians might have wrote. so yeah , youre talking to a person who doesn't care much..Darkman2007

Have you read Paul? Have you read the gospels? Have you read Ignatius, Clement, Iraneaus, Justin Martyr and others? Trust me they mention Jesus ALOT.

But the influence of Christ and Christianity is far more powerful than the influnce of Messianic pretenders in terms of impact on the world. It was Christianity after all that brought a Jewish morality to the western world in some key important areas, be it against infanticide, abortion and other areas.

[QUOTE="toast_burner"]

Why's it sad that some peoples religion is different to yours? Most people don't follow your religion, it would be just as logical to say it's sad that you think god did have a son.

Philokalia

Because the God who has done so much for this people specifically has had them turned on him. It is sad from a Christian standpoint as it as sad for Paul. Thats not to suggest it isn't said for others as well however.

The Abraham that took a Mohammed...

Ahh you backed off, good pagan you are.

tenaka2

I will back off from talking to a Christ Myther, its like Talking to a Jack chick follower, a haulocaust denier or David icke.

A christian standpoint doesn't mean anything to anyone who isn't.

toast_burner

Okay and? He gave a jewish viewpoint about blasphemy and I gave a Christian viewpoint in responce. Whats the matter?

Philokalia and tenaka are the two most annoying sh!ts on this forum. That is all.

Philokalia and tenaka are the two most annoying sh!ts on this forum. That is all.

coolbeans90

Your a liberal catholic right?

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] correction , 13 million Jews refuse to recognise him as anything more than a false messiah , hell ,I would say Bar Kochba and even Shabbati Ztvi had a bigger impact than Yeshua did. the fact is, Jews do not care about him , I don't even think he is mentioned in any great detail beyond what early Christians might have wrote. so yeah , youre talking to a person who doesn't care much..Philokalia

Have you read Paul? Have you read the gospels? Have you read Ignatius, Clement, Iraneaus, Justin Martyr and others? Trust me they mention Jesus ALOT.

But the influence of Christ and Christianity is far more powerful than the influnce of Messianic pretenders in terms of impact on the world. It was Christianity after all that brought a Jewish morality to the western world in some key important areas, be it against infanticide, abortion and other areas.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Can you provide a primary source for Jesus lol :D all ai hear is second hand or third hand 'revolations' :D

Philokalia

I'm conflicted. Should I present the massive amount of evidence which is clear to virtually every single scholar that there was a historic figure called JEsus of Nazereth who considered himself to be a messiah and Crucified under pontius Pilate and let you ultimately derail the discussion and deflect it away from you having to prove your claims and me having to merely tell you something that virtually every authority, be it conservative or liberal accepts?

Or should I just say your not worth the time? And that you are essentially like a Haulocaust denier? Decisions decision.s

As primary account seem to be your only concern perhaps yo could provide at least one?

[QUOTE="toast_burner"]

A christian standpoint doesn't mean anything to anyone who isn't.

Philokalia

Okay and? He gave a jewish viewpoint about blasphemy and I gave a Christian viewpoint in responce. Whats the matter?

I meant Jewish sources, by that I mean the Rabbis, not the early Christians. as for his influence on the world, thats another thing, on Jews? he had no impact, except when his followers evoked his name when they killed the Jews. thats about the only impact he had on us, and given the fact the Jews are still around, Id say the Jews are doing quite well . Christianity has Jewish morals?Darkman2007

And yes despite the ills of some people in the past who have claimed to be acting in a Christian manner Christianity is a religion firmly rooted in basic Judaic pressuppsoitions and beliefs. If you ever want to know more about it I reccomend NT Wright's work on the ressurection of the son of God.

I don't see where he said it's sad that some people aren't jewish.

toast_burner

Neither do I...

As primary account seem to be your only concern perhaps yo could provide at least one?

tenaka2

By primary sources I mean sources which are not secondary in nature, like only claiming something on to the past as you do when you claim the trinity is pagan without giving any such evidence from pagan literature before the advent of Crhist to establish the point. Or a scholar who will quote a recognised authority on a subject. Its not a primary account, its a primary source, a source which is ancient on which we base our historical theory on. Honestly did you not pay attention in history class or classics class?

That being said the Entire new testament consistutes as a primary source especially in the case of Paul and we do not need the gospels to illustrate the importance of Paul on this matter. Paul is infintely important because he is closest to the events writing about a real solid figure called Jesus the Christ whom was born of a woman as he put it. So we know he talks about a historical figure in his epistles and...

Oh right your a mythicist you will just ignore all of this anyway.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] I meant Jewish sources, by that I mean the Rabbis, not the early Christians. as for his influence on the world, thats another thing, on Jews? he had no impact, except when his followers evoked his name when they killed the Jews. thats about the only impact he had on us, and given the fact the Jews are still around, Id say the Jews are doing quite well . Christianity has Jewish morals?Philokalia

And yes despite the ills of some people in the past who have claimed to be acting in a Christian manner Christianity is a religion firmly rooted in basic Judaic pressuppsoitions and beliefs. If you ever want to know more about it I reccomend NT Wright's work on the ressurection of the son of God.

naa, I think Ill pass that chance up. you might want to read works by the Rambam and Ramban though :P oh wait, Im not allowed to preach to you. oh well, don't bother.Darkman2007

Preaching is not discussing.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]naa, I think Ill pass that chance up. you might want to read works by the Rambam and Ramban though :P oh wait, Im not allowed to preach to you. oh well, don't bother.Philokalia

Preaching is not discussing.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Philokalia and tenaka are the two most annoying sh!ts on this forum. That is all.

Philokalia

You[']r[e] a liberal catholic right?

No.

No.

coolbeans90

So why am I an asshat?

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

No.

Philokalia

So why am I an asshat?

Read the last few pages of this thread.

Somewhere there might be pedantic bickering.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Can you provide a primary source for Jesus lol :D all ai hear is second hand or third hand 'revolations' :D

Philokalia

I'm conflicted. Should I present the massive amount of evidence which is clear to virtually every single scholar that there was a historic figure called JEsus of Nazereth who considered himself to be a messiah and Crucified under pontius Pilate and let you ultimately derail the discussion and deflect it away from you having to prove your claims and me having to merely tell you something that virtually every authority, be it conservative or liberal accepts?

Or should I just say your not worth the time? And that you are essentially like a Haulocaust denier? Decisions decision.s

Any would do, you have none.

you have nothing, and your faith is weak.

Any would do, you have none.

you hhave nothing, and your faith is weak.

tenaka2

I could go into present the case that it is illogical to suggest saint Paul speaking of a real flesh and blood entity such as Christ would actually believe that Christ didn't exist in a time where such evidence and facts would be very easy to locate and identify for any of the communties he spread. I could also remind that virtually every single scholar except the whackos like Richard Carrier consider Jesus's historical existence to be but a firm solid and historic fact and while that doesn't make it a fact it does shoot down the idea that someone on the internet with seemingly no familarity with history could simply say Jesus Christ did not exist and think that is on par with saying the trintiy is pagan. Reall I could make a thousand arguments that you would never be able to respond to. But I won't.

So Culebeans pointing out he has no reason to believe in the trinity being pagan is bickering? Alright.

So Culebeans pointing out he has no reason to believe in the trinity being pagan is bickering? Alright.

Philokalia

He might have reasons and a compelling argument even if he is wrong. Irrespective of that point, the previous page was sad.

He might have reasons and a compelling argument even if he is wrong. Irrespective of that point, the previous page was sad.

coolbeans90

Zeitgeist and google is not a compelling reason.