Did God(Christian) broke some of the rules of the Ten Commandments?

[QUOTE="lowkey254"][QUOTE="raynimrod"]

Absolutely not. That's called circular reasoning and it's a logical fallacy that no serious person would accept in a debate of any kind.

It's essentially like asking:

"How do you know the Bible is true?"

"Because the Bible says so".

Absolutely ludicrous - it has no place in a serious debate.

raynimrod

I'm sorry, but when you engage in a debate, you must use facts - not faith. Telling the previous poster to learn how to debate your unfalsifiable, circular argument, or else not debate at all, is so rude and absurd I don't know what else to say.

In the real world, you need evidence. Faith has no place in a serious debate, and faith doesn't determine whether something is true. You can't use faith in your debate.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="lowkey254"] So if a rapist rapes someone it's God's fault? Sounds like a cop out to blame God.lowkey254

If the rapist asked God permission to rape that person and God said he was cool with it, yeah.

There is no free will if you believe in God.

How can God be omniscient, but we still have free will? It's completely contradictory.

[QUOTE="lowkey254"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

If the rapist asked God permission to rape that person and God said he was cool with it, yeah.

raynimrod

There is no free will if you believe in God.

How can God be omniscient, but we still have free will? It's completely contradictory.

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="lowkey254"] Like defining a word using the word in a definition right? The difference is, that as God is omnipotent , so far beyond what we know that we cannot even define Him correctly because we are simply humans. Now, as you may say, that's a load of bull, I will say that it's my faith. Some people need facts some just need a little faith. lowkey254

I'm sorry, but when you engage in a debate, you must use facts - not faith. Telling the previous poster to learn how to debate your unfalsifiable, circular argument, or else not debate at all, is so rude and absurd I don't know what else to say.

In the real world, you need evidence. Faith has no place in a serious debate, and faith doesn't determine whether something is true. You can't use faith in your debate.

I don't have to prove that God doesn't exist. I've never even said that God doesn't exist - it's impossible for it to be proven.

However, you have made the extraordinary claim that God does in fact, exist. Therefore, it requires extraordinary evidence. You can't expect anybody to take you seriously if you make such a claim with no evidence to back it up. Again, this is the real world, where claims require evidence to prove they are true.

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="lowkey254"] I edited that last post. Anyway, to counter there's this thing called free will... lowkey254

There is no free will if you believe in God.

How can God be omniscient, but we still have free will? It's completely contradictory.

Is God all-knowing? Does God know everything there is to know?

[QUOTE="lowkey254"][QUOTE="raynimrod"]

There is no free will if you believe in God.

How can God be omniscient, but we still have free will? It's completely contradictory.

raynimrod

Is God all-knowing? Does God know everything there is to know?

[QUOTE="Superbored"]

[QUOTE="lowkey254"] So if a rapist rapes someone it's God's fault? Sounds like a cop out to blame God. We can do whatever we want to on this Earth due to free will. God is not holding the reigns to you like a pupeteer.

lowkey254

No, but if God created that person and did nothing but watch while his own creation murdered your family, yes he is.

You're not getting me. Yes, we all have choices to make.

In this case, God's own decisions are being questioned.

God created Lucifer, there is no doubt in this. Lucifer brought plagues upon Job, but God did nothing to spare his faithful servant. God was well aware of Satan's intentions, but let him have his way anyway. To what? Prove a point? The blood of Job's family is on God's hands.

[QUOTE="lowkey254"][QUOTE="-Makaveli-"]

It is if he tells him to:

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

-Makaveli-

Oh, excuse me. I don't really have a bible in front of me. Just tell me when one of these happens to show up in red.

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife. (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

[QUOTE="lowkey254"]

[QUOTE="Superbored"]

God is still ultimately responsible.

Superbored

No, but if God created that person and did nothing but watch while his own creation murdered your family, yes he is.

In a way, you could argue that. However, it is worth noting that God did not stop the murders of Stephen, the prophets and some of the apostles. Bad things happen to good people in the bible, quite often in fact. Suffering on this earth is nothing compared to the splendours of heaven, meeting God face to face. Sin will ultimately be judged in the end days of the earth, so those actions will be accounted for.

Trials can be good for the soul.

[QUOTE="lowkey254"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

If the rapist asked God permission to rape that person and God said he was cool with it, yeah.

raynimrod

There is no free will if you believe in God.

How can God be omniscient, but we still have free will? It's completely contradictory.

I hold to compatibilism - the idea that determinism and free will do not contradict. However, there are many Christians who are non-compatibilists and thus have an emphasis in determinism over free will or vise versa.

[QUOTE="lowkey254"][QUOTE="Superbored"]

No, but if God created that person and did nothing but watch while his own creation murdered your family, yes he is.

Superbored

You're not getting me. Yes, we all have choices to make.

In this case, God's own decisions are being questioned.

God created Lucifer, there is no doubt in this. Lucifer brought plagues upon Job, but God did nothing to spare his faithful servant. God was well aware of Satan's intentions, but let him have his way anyway. To what? Prove a point? The blood of Job's family is on God's hands.

I can't say I really agree with you here. You'll probably find that most atheists don't even mention or talk about religion, let alone debate about it. You might just be referring to those atheists (like me) who enjoy engaging in such arguments. Even if you're just referring to that group of people, I feel that any condescension starts making up for years of blatent patronisation by the religious who believe they have some devine knowledge and authority that non-believers lack. The ideas of religion are primitive, silly, and without evidence. I see no reason why they can't be justly and harshly criticised for what they are.

raynimrod

Yet you talk in a condescending way, and have intolerant views on Christianity yourself. Saying that it is "primitive" (assuming you are talking about Christianity) is an easy way to act as if just because it is an old text, that it is somehow "not advanced" for your hi tech world. Morals and human decency have no time rate.

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

I can't say I really agree with you here. You'll probably find that most atheists don't even mention or talk about religion, let alone debate about it. You might just be referring to those atheists (like me) who enjoy engaging in such arguments. Even if you're just referring to that group of people, I feel that any condescension starts making up for years of blatent patronisation by the religious who believe they have some devine knowledge and authority that non-believers lack. The ideas of religion are primitive, silly, and without evidence. I see no reason why they can't be justly and harshly criticised for what they are.

gaming25

Yet you talk in a condescending way, and have intolerant views on Christianity yourself. Saying that it is "primitive" (assuming you are talking about Christianity) is an easy way to act as if just because it is an old text, that it is somehow "not advanced" for your hi tech world. Morals and human decency have no time rate.

Christians believe that God is perfect, so no, he wouldn't break his own laws.

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="lowkey254"] Please explain.lowkey254

Is God all-knowing? Does God know everything there is to know?

I needed to confirm this before I provided my explanation.

Okay! God is all-knowing, he knows everything there is to know.

He knows:

1. Exactly what "choices" I will make throughout my life.

2. Exactly what actions I will think about and take.

3. Exactly where I will end up, how I will die, how my life will end.

If he knows all of this already, it's impossible for me to do anything other than what he already knows, otherwise he doesn't really know it. Therefore, it's impossible for there to be free will. What I do is already known by God - it has already been decided.

[QUOTE="-Makaveli-"]

[QUOTE="lowkey254"] Yes and those who had done the ravishing will be held accountable for their wrong doings. God didn't say, ravish the women. Zechariah stated what will happen.lowkey254

Oh, excuse me. I don't really have a bible in front of me. Just tell me when one of these happens to show up in red.

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife. (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

That's interesting. I did some research and I'm curious as to how you would respond to this selection:

First of all, in some passages God seems to tacitly sanction rape. In the Old Testament Moses encourages his men to use captured virgins for their own sexual pleasure, i.e. to rape them. After urging his men to kill the male captives and female captive who are not virgins he says: "But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves" (Numbers 31: 18). God then explicitly rewards Moses by urging him to distribute the spoils. He does not rebuke Moses or his men (Numbers 31: 25-27).

Source: http://misslink.org/chapel/askaminister/bible/rape.html

[QUOTE="Acemaster27"][QUOTE="funsohng"]This reminds me, if I'm a Christian and believe in evolution, would I burn in hell? Because I want to believe in evolution without burning in hell.raynimrod

So you cherry-pick the parts of the Bible you want to believe? On what basis does that make sense?

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

I can't say I really agree with you here. You'll probably find that most atheists don't even mention or talk about religion, let alone debate about it. You might just be referring to those atheists (like me) who enjoy engaging in such arguments. Even if you're just referring to that group of people, I feel that any condescension starts making up for years of blatent patronisation by the religious who believe they have some devine knowledge and authority that non-believers lack. The ideas of religion are primitive, silly, and without evidence. I see no reason why they can't be justly and harshly criticised for what they are.

Yet you talk in a condescending way, and have intolerant views on Christianity yourself. Saying that it is "primitive" (assuming you are talking about Christianity) is an easy way to act as if just because it is an old text, that it is somehow "not advanced" for your hi tech world. Morals and human decency have no time rate.

[QUOTE="Lonelynight"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]No, the Law expresses the very character and nature of God. To say that he breaks his own law is to call him an inconstant liar and the very foundations for reality breaks down as nothing can be trusted. If God does not abide by his moral law then why do laws such as the Law of Gravity remain constant?mindstorm

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="lowkey254"] I edited that last post. Anyway, to counter there's this thing called free will... lowkey254

There is no free will if you believe in God.

How can God be omniscient, but we still have free will? It's completely contradictory.

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

I can't say I really agree with you here. You'll probably find that most atheists don't even mention or talk about religion, let alone debate about it. You might just be referring to those atheists (like me) who enjoy engaging in such arguments. Even if you're just referring to that group of people, I feel that any condescension starts making up for years of blatent patronisation by the religious who believe they have some devine knowledge and authority that non-believers lack. The ideas of religion are primitive, silly, and without evidence. I see no reason why they can't be justly and harshly criticised for what they are.

gaming25

Yet you talk in a condescending way, and have intolerant views on Christianity yourself. Saying that it is "primitive" (assuming you are talking about Christianity) is an easy way to act as if just because it is an old text, that it is somehow "not advanced" for your hi tech world. Morals and human decency have no time rate.

I never said or suggested that I don't speak in a condescending way when talking about religion.

My comments are about all religion, not Christianity specifically. It's primitive in the sense that religion came about when we as a species was in a primitive form, with little or no knowledge of how the world worked. We needed to explain why the sun rose in the morning and set in the evening, why rain fell, why plants grew, etc. The ideas of religion, as I explicitly stated, are primitive. They have no place in a modern world where almost everything we know about can be scientifically explained without the need for a "God" or "creator".

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="Acemaster27"] No. I'm a Christian, I believe that the whole bible is the true and inspired word of God but I also study physics and believe the universe is 12.6 billion years old. When Genesis discusses creation it is not trying to give a logical, scientific account of what happened, but rather a poetic account the fact that God created the universe and how mankind came to have dominion over the Earth. That is how Christians throughout most of history have interpreted it actually. If you have more questions, I suggest you check out Biologos, I find it to be a great website. There are also a number of books on the subject I could recommend for you. Acemaster27

So you cherry-pick the parts of the Bible you want to believe? On what basis does that make sense?

As determined by who?

[QUOTE="lowkey254"][QUOTE="raynimrod"]

Is God all-knowing? Does God know everything there is to know?

raynimrod

I needed to confirm this before I provided my explanation.

Okay! God is all-knowing, he knows everything there is to know.

He knows:

1. Exactly what "choices" I will make throughout my life.

2. Exactly what actions I will think about and take.

3. Exactly where I will end up, how I will die, how my life will end.

If he knows all of this already, it's impossible for me to do anything other than what he already knows, otherwise he doesn't really know it. Therefore, it's impossible for there to be free will. What I do is already known by God - it has already been decided.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="gaming25"]

Yet you talk in a condescending way, and have intolerant views on Christianity yourself. Saying that it is "primitive" (assuming you are talking about Christianity) is an easy way to act as if just because it is an old text, that it is somehow "not advanced" for your hi tech world. Morals and human decency have no time rate.

gaming25

I'll give you a basic one. The fact that the Earth is stated as flat. Do people still believe this? I think this has been proven as false.

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="lowkey254"] An explanation was asked for but I'll answer. Yes He is and Yes He does.lowkey254

I needed to confirm this before I provided my explanation.

Okay! God is all-knowing, he knows everything there is to know.

He knows:

1. Exactly what "choices" I will make throughout my life.

2. Exactly what actions I will think about and take.

3. Exactly where I will end up, how I will die, how my life will end.

If he knows all of this already, it's impossible for me to do anything other than what he already knows, otherwise he doesn't really know it. Therefore, it's impossible for there to be free will. What I do is already known by God - it has already been decided.

But that makes no sense at all - can't you see that? If he knows what I will do, I can't do anything other than that. How do I have free will?

That's interesting. I did some research and I'm curious as to how you would respond to this selection:

First of all, in some passages God seems to tacitly sanction rape. In the Old Testament Moses encourages his men to use captured virgins for their own sexual pleasure, i.e. to rape them. After urging his men to kill the male captives and female captive who are not virgins he says: "But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves" (Numbers 31: 18). God then explicitly rewards Moses by urging him to distribute the spoils. He does not rebuke Moses or his men (Numbers 31: 25-27).

Source: http://misslink.org/chapel/askaminister/bible/rape.html

-Makaveli-

[QUOTE="Acemaster27"][QUOTE="raynimrod"]

So you cherry-pick the parts of the Bible you want to believe? On what basis does that make sense?

raynimrod

As determined by who?

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="lowkey254"] So if a rapist rapes someone it's God's fault? Sounds like a cop out to blame God.lowkey254

If the rapist asked God permission to rape that person and God said he was cool with it, yeah.

In any system of law in the world, God would be found guilty of being accessory to the rape in such a situation.

Exodus 20:14

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="Acemaster27"] It's actually interpreting the bible the way its meant to be interpreted. Acemaster27

As determined by who?

I fail to see how study of the text provides any insight on how the scriptures should be interpreted. You either believe what the Bible says or you don't. Anywhere in between is cherry-picking the bits you like, and the bits you don't. It's either the word of God, or it isn't.

[QUOTE="Acemaster27"][QUOTE="raynimrod"]

As determined by who?

raynimrod

I fail to see how study of the text provides any insight on how the scriptures should be interpreted. You either believe what the Bible says or you don't. Anywhere in between is cherry-picking the bits you like, and the bits you don't. It's either the word of God, or it isn't.

I'm liking how raynimrod is going on an absolute tear in this thread.:P

[QUOTE="mindstorm"][QUOTE="Lonelynight"]Then how would you explain his actions?lonewolf604

[QUOTE="Acemaster27"][QUOTE="raynimrod"]

As determined by who?

raynimrod

I fail to see how study of the text provides any insight on how the scriptures should be interpreted. You either believe what the Bible says or you don't. Anywhere in between is cherry-picking the bits you like, and the bits you don't. It's either the word of God, or it isn't.

What does "believe what the Bible says" mean?

Jesus spoke in parables all the time. The point to every such story is not the factual portion of what happened within the story, but rather the message expressed through it. A story can have not factually occurred yet still be true.

[QUOTE="lowkey254"][QUOTE="raynimrod"]

I needed to confirm this before I provided my explanation.

Okay! God is all-knowing, he knows everything there is to know.

He knows:

1. Exactly what "choices" I will make throughout my life.

2. Exactly what actions I will think about and take.

3. Exactly where I will end up, how I will die, how my life will end.

If he knows all of this already, it's impossible for me to do anything other than what he already knows, otherwise he doesn't really know it. Therefore, it's impossible for there to be free will. What I do is already known by God - it has already been decided.

raynimrod

But that makes no sense at all - can't you see that? If he knows what I will do, I can't do anything other than that. How do I have free will?

God knows a person's nature and thoughts more than said individual actually does himself. We have free will in the sense that we can believe anything we want, God can't force people to accept his invitation/message.

[QUOTE="gaming25"]

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

I can't say I really agree with you here. You'll probably find that most atheists don't even mention or talk about religion, let alone debate about it. You might just be referring to those atheists (like me) who enjoy engaging in such arguments. Even if you're just referring to that group of people, I feel that any condescension starts making up for years of blatent patronisation by the religious who believe they have some devine knowledge and authority that non-believers lack. The ideas of religion are primitive, silly, and without evidence. I see no reason why they can't be justly and harshly criticised for what they are.

Yet you talk in a condescending way, and have intolerant views on Christianity yourself. Saying that it is "primitive" (assuming you are talking about Christianity) is an easy way to act as if just because it is an old text, that it is somehow "not advanced" for your hi tech world. Morals and human decency have no time rate.

I never said or suggested that I don't speak in a condescending way when talking about religion.

My comments are about all religion, not Christianity specifically. It's primitive in the sense that religion came about when we as a species was in a primitive form, with little or no knowledge of how the world worked. We needed to explain why the sun rose in the morning and set in the evening, why rain fell, why plants grew, etc. The ideas of religion, as I explicitly stated, are primitive. They have no place in a modern world where almost everything we know about can be scientifically explained without the need for a "God" or "creator".

[QUOTE="gaming25"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] How do you explain the glaring contradictions? As time passed, we know what is fact and what isn'tDroidPhysX

I'll give you a basic one. The fact that the Earth is stated as flat. Do people still believe this? I think this has been proven as false.

I fail to see how study of the text provides any insight on how the scriptures should be interpreted. You either believe what the Bible says or you don't. Anywhere in between is cherry-picking the bits you like, and the bits you don't. It's either the word of God, or it isn't.

raynimrod

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="Acemaster27"] By careful study. By scholars and scholarly discussion. And most importantly, by the spirit-inspired reading of the Word.GabuEx

I fail to see how study of the text provides any insight on how the scriptures should be interpreted. You either believe what the Bible says or you don't. Anywhere in between is cherry-picking the bits you like, and the bits you don't. It's either the word of God, or it isn't.

What does "believe what the Bible says" mean?

Jesus spoke in parables all the time. The point to every such story is not the factual portion of what happened within the story, but rather the message expressed through it. A story can have not factually occurred yet still be true.

That's the New Testament, not the whole Bible. If we're going to say that most of the New Testament comprises stories that may or may not have some element of truth in them, then I'm going to say that such a book has no place in a serious debate about religion. Again, it's either the word of God, or it's not.

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="lowkey254"] It hasn't been decided, He hasn't said that you will do this or that, He just knows what you will do. You can do as you will but God still knows what you're going to do. ForceFreeze

But that makes no sense at all - can't you see that? If he knows what I will do, I can't do anything other than that. How do I have free will?

God knows a person's nature and thoughts more than said individual actually does himself. We have free will in the sense that we can believe anything we want, God can't force people to accept his invitation/message.

Then it's not free will or anything like it, just a delusion. Two completely different things.

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"]

Yet you talk in a condescending way, and have intolerant views on Christianity yourself. Saying that it is "primitive" (assuming you are talking about Christianity) is an easy way to act as if just because it is an old text, that it is somehow "not advanced" for your hi tech world. Morals and human decency have no time rate.

gaming25

I never said or suggested that I don't speak in a condescending way when talking about religion.

My comments are about all religion, not Christianity specifically. It's primitive in the sense that religion came about when we as a species was in a primitive form, with little or no knowledge of how the world worked. We needed to explain why the sun rose in the morning and set in the evening, why rain fell, why plants grew, etc. The ideas of religion, as I explicitly stated, are primitive. They have no place in a modern world where almost everything we know about can be scientifically explained without the need for a "God" or "creator".

Christianity and the ideas behind it are just as primitive and bizare as any other religion. Even if you want to believe that's what Christianity is all about, that doesn't make it true.

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="Acemaster27"] By careful study. By scholars and scholarly discussion. And most importantly, by the spirit-inspired reading of the Word.GabuEx

I fail to see how study of the text provides any insight on how the scriptures should be interpreted. You either believe what the Bible says or you don't. Anywhere in between is cherry-picking the bits you like, and the bits you don't. It's either the word of God, or it isn't.

What does "believe what the Bible says" mean?

Jesus spoke in parables all the time. The point to every such story is not the factual portion of what happened within the story, but rather the message expressed through it. A story can have not factually occurred yet still be true.

Such a statement takes into account genre and our inability to always interpret the text correctly. Basically, I hold to the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy. As it is stated in this document: We affirm what Scripture says, God says.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

I fail to see how study of the text provides any insight on how the scriptures should be interpreted. You either believe what the Bible says or you don't. Anywhere in between is cherry-picking the bits you like, and the bits you don't. It's either the word of God, or it isn't.

raynimrod

What does "believe what the Bible says" mean?

Jesus spoke in parables all the time. The point to every such story is not the factual portion of what happened within the story, but rather the message expressed through it. A story can have not factually occurred yet still be true.

That's the New Testament, not the whole Bible. If we're going to say that most of the New Testament comprises stories that may or may not have some element of truth in them, then I'm going to say that such a book has no place in a serious debate about religion. Again, it's either the word of God, or it's not.

Edit: Wow three posts basically saying the same thing :P

[QUOTE="gaming25"][QUOTE="raynimrod"]

I never said or suggested that I don't speak in a condescending way when talking about religion.

My comments are about all religion, not Christianity specifically. It's primitive in the sense that religion came about when we as a species was in a primitive form, with little or no knowledge of how the world worked. We needed to explain why the sun rose in the morning and set in the evening, why rain fell, why plants grew, etc. The ideas of religion, as I explicitly stated, are primitive. They have no place in a modern world where almost everything we know about can be scientifically explained without the need for a "God" or "creator".

Christianity and the ideas behind it are just as primitive and bizare as any other religion. Even if you want to believe that's what Christianity is all about, that doesn't make it true.

Cherry-picking verses out of context is a worse butchering of the Bible. I don't cherry-pick, I do my best to interpret what the bible says. And the fact that the bible tells us the world is 6000 years old is a modern myth.Acemaster27

Essentially what you've just said is, you don't cherry-pick, but you interpret as you see fit. Some bits you'll take literally, others you'll take with a grain of salt. You're still left where you started - with contradictory, nonsensical text that you've moulded into meaning whatever you want it to mean to suit your needs. There's nothing true about your interpretation of Bible - it's completely subjective.

That is not at all what the original writers of the bible intended for us to think or to use the bible for.Acemaster27

You somehow know this.

It is absolutely true that God created the Universe, and that God created life. Acemaster27

Please provide some compelling evidence to back up such an extraordinary claim.

That is what genesis focuses on, not some quasi-scientific method of creation. The method is God, and that is all we really need to know. For those of us who are more inquisitive and discover methods like evolution or the big bang, then props to us for discovering something great about the universe. But it doesn't contradict what the bible is saying. Acemaster27

So now you're back to saying that what the Bible says is true? Why is what the Bible says true?

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

What does "believe what the Bible says" mean?

Jesus spoke in parables all the time. The point to every such story is not the factual portion of what happened within the story, but rather the message expressed through it. A story can have not factually occurred yet still be true.

Mario2007

That's the New Testament, not the whole Bible. If we're going to say that most of the New Testament comprises stories that may or may not have some element of truth in them, then I'm going to say that such a book has no place in a serious debate about religion. Again, it's either the word of God, or it's not.

Edit: Wow three posts basically saying the same thing :P

Absolutely it can't be used. Even if the book is now just a story or a book of poetry, there's nothing to suggest that it's true. How does a book of poetry or parables fit into a serious debate about religion and whether or not it's true?

[QUOTE="Mario2007"]

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

That's the New Testament, not the whole Bible. If we're going to say that most of the New Testament comprises stories that may or may not have some element of truth in them, then I'm going to say that such a book has no place in a serious debate about religion. Again, it's either the word of God, or it's not.

raynimrod

Edit: Wow three posts basically saying the same thing :P

Absolutely it can't be used. Even if the book is now just a story or a book of poetry, there's nothing to suggest that it's true. How does a book of poetry or parables fit into a serious debate about religion and whether or not it's true?

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"] I cant speak for all religions, I am a Christian. Christianity is not primitive at all. Christianity is not only about the reasons of science, but to have salvation, and love for one another.gaming25

Christianity and the ideas behind it are just as primitive and bizare as any other religion. Even if you want to believe that's what Christianity is all about, that doesn't make it true.

The biggest primitive aspects are:

1. A "God" is still required to essentially explain how and why everything happens, despite there being scientific explanataions for pretty much everything.

2. The worship of unknown, unseen, all-powerful supreme being dates back to ancient man, again when humans lacked the mental capacity to apply science to the world.

Then there's things like Christianity being used to instill fear and control among the masses. The reward of Heaven for the obedient, and Hell for the rebelious. This is a very primitive method of control, but it worked well in ancient times when cinvilisations were still new.

Some bizare aspects include:

1. One of the biggest ones - Amazing contradictions with the idea of an omniscient and omnipotent God.

2. Free will (see above), the devil (see above), original sin (see above), evil (see above).

3. The idea of being the ever-watchful eye of some supreme dictator, every minute of every day, who knows what I think, what I do, cares what I do and how I do it. Punishes people for doing things he knew would already happen (see above). These idea is very bizare to me.

4. God would send his son (or himself) to Earth to die for our original sin that he created us with. That dying for us is somehow noble, and that He absolves us from our own responsibility for the things He chose for us to do. It's extremely bizare.

5. That God would exist and not blatently show himself to us. The all-knowing, all-powerful, all-perfect God, wants us to argue and debate his existence. Really weird.

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

[QUOTE="Mario2007"]Why not? Can't the Word of God teach people using parables instead of just saying "do this, and this, and this". That would make quite the boring book, but the parables are what makes an engaging and beautiful book. Therefore, the messages the parables give are perfectly legitimate for religious debates. Just because the story may not be factual, doesn't mean the message can't be used in a religous debate.

Edit: Wow three posts basically saying the same thing :P

Mario2007

Absolutely it can't be used. Even if the book is now just a story or a book of poetry, there's nothing to suggest that it's true. How does a book of poetry or parables fit into a serious debate about religion and whether or not it's true?

The person or people claiming a religion to be true, providing evidence of their extraordinary claims to someone who believes that such evidence doesn't exist and that religion is the fabrication of an ancident human mind. Then discussing it!