Che Guevara, was he good or bad? (Poll and Opinions!)

In your opinion was Che Guevara good or bad? In case you are unsure who I am talking about, I am sure you have seem him at least once in your life

I think he was pretty awesome, I mean he fought for justice for people who had no hope, peasents etc. People label him as a communist, but were his veiws not good at the time in a country that was so oppressed by others that its people had no real freedom? No one like him could ever get on TV at the time so he did the next best thing and hit the world slap bang in the face with force, yet still showing compassion and respect for those who had oppressed thousands for so long. Remember this was also a guy who spoke out against America at the time because he was so disgusted about the way black and other ethnic people were treated at the time...I think if we had more people like him we could have a damn pretty world right now.

He started out with great intentions (rise of the lower class, etc), but I heard in his last days he was kind of maniacal... don't know how true it is, but I heard he wanted Russia and Castro to nuke the US during the missle crisis.

i think these type of characters belong to the past,that way isn't working anymore.

He was a nutjob.

One piece of trash human being. Best thing he did was dieing

He oversaw the execution of hundreds of accused informants. In the interest of "revolutionary justice", he didn't bother with any of the little details like due process, proper trials, defense of the accused, etc.

Doesn't sound like a good guy to me.

One piece of trash human being. Best thing he did was dieing

Adrianstalker

[QUOTE="Adrianstalker"]

One piece of trash human being. Best thing he did was dieing

V4LENT1NE

How did he stand up for civil rights? By completely ignoring them? Read the post above yours. He was an insane hypocrite.

He oversaw the execution of hundreds of accused informants. In the interest of "revolutionary justice", he didn't bother with any of the little details like due process, proper trials, defense of the accused, etc.

Doesn't sound like a good guy to me.

Oleg_Huzwog

Che was an authentic degenerate, a moral equivalent to Hitler Pol Pot, Stalin, Castro, Mugabe, and Saddam Hussein.

[QUOTE="V4LENT1NE"][QUOTE="Adrianstalker"]

One piece of trash human being. Best thing he did was dieing

Theokhoth

How did he stand up for civil rights? By completely ignoring them? Read the post above yours. He was an insane hypocrite.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="V4LENT1NE"] How so? Standing up for civil rights? Over throwing a country from oppression? How was he a piece of trash?V4LENT1NE

How did he stand up for civil rights? By completely ignoring them? Read the post above yours. He was an insane hypocrite.

Ooh, he made a nice speech. That completely makes him not insane. Hitler made some good speeches to; lots of "civil rights" and "good of the world" stuff in his writings.

He treated people WORSE than the US treated black people at that time! Just because he was "disgusted" by something bad does not change the fact that he was an evil bastard and a braying hypocritical jackass.

[QUOTE="Adrianstalker"]

One piece of trash human being. Best thing he did was dieing

V4LENT1NE

What Oleg said. Here is a hint, if you ever hanged somebody, you are not a nice person. Unless you hanged Che :P

Now seriously, he even killed a good old friend of him just because he was losing his faith in the "revolution" on the stigma of being a traitor

Not a fan. He's incredibly romanticized by his followers to the point that I just say "do people actually know WHAT he did?" I won't get into the debate about it though, I'm just giving my 2 cents.

I get a kick out of people who have his name plastered all over their shirts, hats, book bags, bumper stickers, trapper keepers, etc, etc.

He oversaw the execution of hundreds of accused informants. In the interest of "revolutionary justice", he didn't bother with any of the little details like due process, proper trials, defense of the accused, etc.

Doesn't sound like a good guy to me.

Oleg_Huzwog

Bingo. Had he lived he would have been just another dictator in a God forsaken third world Country

[QUOTE="V4LENT1NE"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

How did he stand up for civil rights? By completely ignoring them? Read the post above yours. He was an insane hypocrite.

Theokhoth

Ooh, he made a nice speech. That completely makes him not insane. Hitler made some good speeches to; lots of "civil rights" and "good of the world" stuff in his writings.

He treated people WORSE than the US treated black people at that time! Just because he was "disgusted" by something bad does not change the fact that he was an evil bastard and a braying hypocritical jackass.

Not a fan. He's incredibly romanticized by his followers to the point that I just say "do people actually know WHAT he did?" I won't get into the debate about it though, I'm just giving my 2 cents.

I get a kick out of people who have his name plastered all over their shirts, hats, book bags, bumper stickers, trapper keepers, etc, etc.

InterpolWilco

I own this shirt.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="V4LENT1NE"] Just the speeches that he has done posted on the net, lots of mention of not wanting to work with US aid because he was so disgusted by how they treated black people.V4LENT1NE

Ooh, he made a nice speech. That completely makes him not insane. Hitler made some good speeches to; lots of "civil rights" and "good of the world" stuff in his writings.

He treated people WORSE than the US treated black people at that time! Just because he was "disgusted" by something bad does not change the fact that he was an evil bastard and a braying hypocritical jackass.

What beautiful things?

Not a fan. He's incredibly romanticized by his followers to the point that I just say "do people actually know WHAT he did?" I won't get into the debate about it though, I'm just giving my 2 cents.

I get a kick out of people who have his name plastered all over their shirts, hats, book bags, bumper stickers, trapper keepers, etc, etc.

InterpolWilco

Especially whites who wear Che attire, I can't even get upset anymore, I just point and laugh.

[QUOTE="InterpolWilco"]

Not a fan. He's incredibly romanticized by his followers to the point that I just say "do people actually know WHAT he did?" I won't get into the debate about it though, I'm just giving my 2 cents.

I get a kick out of people who have his name plastered all over their shirts, hats, book bags, bumper stickers, trapper keepers, etc, etc.

MarcusAntonius

Especially whites who wear Che attire, I can't even get upset anymore, I just point and laugh.

[QUOTE="V4LENT1NE"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Ooh, he made a nice speech. That completely makes him not insane. Hitler made some good speeches to; lots of "civil rights" and "good of the world" stuff in his writings.

He treated people WORSE than the US treated black people at that time! Just because he was "disgusted" by something bad does not change the fact that he was an evil bastard and a braying hypocritical jackass.

Adrianstalker

What beautiful things?

But lets not forget about the bad things, I dont wanna portray this man as a Saint because that isnt fair, like others have said although he had amazing beliefs at first some of those seem a bit lost along the way. He did order the execution of many thought to be traitors, a **** load even without a trial, he said that if Cuba had bombs in during the Cuban Missile crisis he would have fired them at the US, whether that was a chance to flex power or real intention who knows. Guess this is just the mystery behind the man, revolutionary who fought for the poor but also did questionable acts himself along the way, who knows aye? Keep the good and the bad coming folks, lets learn more about the man!

I think we have often have the (very wrong) tendency to oversimplify historical figures squarely into a "good" and a "bad" camp. While I disagree with this in all forms, for some figures it tends to work better than others; Che however is certainly not one of them. On the one hand you have a genuinely ethically incorruptible person who would not compromise his ideals for anything, but then his methods were so often reprehensible to the outside observer that it becomes difficult to justify them. Obviously not having been in his situation, I don't believe we can pass completely fair judgement, but certain actions are difficult to justify under most any circumstance.

Would he have become a dictator? I doubt it, I don't think he had any interest in ruling; he turned down a major position in Fidel's government so that he could help other revolutionary movements abroad, which is yet another testament to his strength of character, but again this doesn't make up for the things he did, nor should it. He was above all, human. A very interesting human, but like anyone, possessed of both admirable and detestable traits. Hero, murderer; I don't think either label is very apt.

He's a mixed bag. I'm not wearing a che shirt, but he was a pretty romantic guy. Not in what he did (cold-blooded murders), but in how he projected what he believed in. That's what made him famous I think. So basically he's a bad guy, but one of the most interesting bad guys out there. Like Darth Vader!

Che was an authentic degenerate, a moral equivalent to Hitler Pol Pot, Stalin, Castro, Mugabe, and Saddam Hussein.

MarcusAntonius

I could not have said it better myself. I do think "murderer" is a valid label for Che. If we expect that term to hold up any objective meaning whatsoever, there is no other choice.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

Che was an authentic degenerate, a moral equivalent to Hitler Pol Pot, Stalin, Castro, Mugabe, and Saddam Hussein.

m0zart

I could not have said it better myself. I do think "murderer" is a valid label for Che. If we expect that term to hold up any objective meaning whatsoever, there is no other choice.

If you guys havent seen it btw I would reccommend watching the new movie called Che with Benicio Del Toro (spelling?), very good depiction of him, shows some of the good and bad parts to him, but all in all he seemed like someone who could have brought a lot of good to the world.

No way can you put him in the same category as a Hitler or Hussein. He may have executed people but the fact is that a) someone had to do it and b) lot of those people were thought to be traitors/former Batista enforcers. But of course we cant really be certain of the circumstances, he showed way to many good traits to be classed s a murdering maniac like Hitler.

If you guys havent seen it btw I would reccommend watching the new movie called Che with Benicio Del Toro (spelling?), very good depiction of him, shows some of the good and bad parts to him, but all in all he seemed like someone who could have brought a lot of good to the world.

V4LENT1NE

Eh I can and do. I believe if it hadn't been for his change of venue from Cuba to South America combined with his shortened life, his methods in the field would have translated into methods of Government. Certainly enough of his ruthless ethic carried over into most other parts of his life. In most cases, Che's ethic on the revolutionary battlefield practically mirrors the gruesome tactics of both Lenin and Stalin in their corresponding revolutionary fervor.

There just is no way to spin this stuff. The guy was a cold blooded murderer -- no amount of "good" or potential is going to overcome that.

As an aside, I saw "Che" in two separate sittings -- my verdict is that it is contrived nonsense that put WAY too much of Castro's shared guilt onto the back of Che and did very little to get inside of his character. It hasn't convinced me that I have misinterpreted his basic scruples, and it did nothing to alleviate my concerns about his crimes (quite the opposite, actually). If it had been a well-made script rather than a film equivalent of the pedantic grunge t-shirt we see on the streets, it might have attempted to at least help us understand how a man with so much potential could lose his marbles to such a grand degree, but it didn't even take us that far. Even if it had I doubt it would have changed my view on him. All I have to do in this case is judge that tree by its fruit.

Well, I have a t-shirt with him on it, so I guess he's not that bad.

[QUOTE="V4LENT1NE"]

No way can you put him in the same category as a Hitler or Hussein. He may have executed people but the fact is that a) someone had to do it and b) lot of those people were thought to be traitors/former Batista enforcers. But of course we cant really be certain of the circumstances, he showed way to many good traits to be classed s a murdering maniac like Hitler.

If you guys havent seen it btw I would reccommend watching the new movie called Che with Benicio Del Toro (spelling?), very good depiction of him, shows some of the good and bad parts to him, but all in all he seemed like someone who could have brought a lot of good to the world.

m0zart

Eh I can and do. I believe if it hadn't been for hisshortened life, his methods in the field would have translated into methods of Government. Certainly enough of his ruthless ethic carried over into most other parts of his life.In most cases, Che's ethic on the revolutionary battlefield practically mirrors the gruesometactics of both Lenin and Stalin in their corresponding revolutionary fervor.

There just is no way to spin this stuff. The guy was a cold blooded murderer -- no amount of "good" or potential is going to overcome that.

As an aside, I saw "Che" in two separate sittings --my verdict is that it iscontrived nonsense that put WAY too much of Castro's shared guilt onto the back of Che and did very little to get inside of his character. It hasn't convinced methat I have misinterpretedhis basic scruples, and it did nothing to alleviate my concerns about his crimes (quite the opposite, actually). If it had been a well-made movie rather than a film equivalent of the pedantic grunge t-shirt we see on the streets, it might have attempted to at least help us understand how a man with so much potential could lose his marbles to such a grand degree, but it didn't even take us that far. Even if it had I doubt it would have changed my view on him. All I have to do in this case is judge that tree by its fruit.

The man's ideology and charity does not justify the violence and oppression he committed. Every time I see some dumb kid with a Che t-shirt on I laugh a little. It's like spitting on his grave to put his face on such a blatant capitalist symbol.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

Che was an authentic degenerate, a moral equivalent to Hitler Pol Pot, Stalin, Castro, Mugabe, and Saddam Hussein.

m0zart

I could not have said it better myself. I do think "murderer" is a valid label for Che. If we expect that term to hold up any objective meaning whatsoever, there is no other choice.

Murder isn't always murder though. Is a soldier a murderer? Is someone who sends people to their deaths a murderer? Even an action such as murder which is so near universally abhorred, is not always the same in every circumstance.

You can't put Che in the same camp as Pol Pot, Hitler Stalin etc. because they are not like; every example you gave there was of national leaders, which Che wasn't, who employed means of institutional murder. Just like you wouldn't (I'd hope) put Ted Bundy and Robert Latimer in the same boat, you can't lump Che in with those guys. I don't say this because I like Che especially, but it just doesn't fit.

Well, I have a t-shirt with him on it, so I guess he's not that bad.

_BlueDuck_

How/why the hell do you have a shirt of him and you don't even know what he did? Thats like wearing a Hitler shirt and saying "meh, don't know who this is, but the dude has a cool stache"

[QUOTE="_BlueDuck_"]

Well, I have a t-shirt with him on it, so I guess he's not that bad.

How/why the hell do you have a shirt of him and you don't even know what he did? Thats like wearing a Hitler shirt and saying "meh, don't know who this is, but the dude has a cool stache"

[QUOTE="taj7575"]

[QUOTE="_BlueDuck_"]

Well, I have a t-shirt with him on it, so I guess he's not that bad.

weezyfb

How/why the hell do you have a shirt of him and you don't even know what he did? Thats like wearing a Hitler shirt and saying "meh, don't know who this is, but the dude has a cool stache"

Uhh, well in that case... Wear it backwards?

His methods in the field werent exactly bad though, he was a soldier at the end if the day. Yeah he was posted to perform executions but its not like he ran the battlefield like a mad man. He cared about what he was fighting for and had good reason, showed compassion towards his own side and the latter, whilst also aiding the poor on the way. I just cant justify why anyone could call him something like HitlerV4LENT1NE

You're not the one doing it, so technically you don't have to justify it.

He wasn't just "posted to perform executions". He performed many ad hoc executions on his own. He was the guy who signed most death warrants in Castro's army and early regime. It was his habit to gather up large groups of people he suspected of being anti-revolutionary, interrogate them to an extreme degree, and then have them executed with or without confessions even for the half-hearted crimes he accused them of committing. Many of these were committing crimes no greater than owning property -- many more were the very peasants he claimed to be defending. He had mass executions of as many as 400 peasants at a time. Heck, in the first year alone, he executed thousands of people -- POST revolution people, in many cases for the most contrived of assocations. There simply IS NO WAY to spin his deeds and turn him intoa hero without turning many other monsters into heroes, including some of those we mentioned.

To me, things like this really come down to ethic, not just opportunity. Che left his post and went to fight other revolutions (more like spawn them in a very Leninist way, but I digress), but he was well on his track to becoming known as one of the greatest mass murderers in history. He doesn't deserve a merit bad for that, he deserves to be judged for the sociopathic ethic he held that made that kind of blood spillingpossible.

The man's ideology and charity does not justify the violence and oppression he committed. Every time I see some dumb kid with a Che t-shirt on I laugh a little. It's like spitting on his grave to put his face on such a blatant capitalist symbol.

Brendissimo35

[QUOTE="V4LENT1NE"]His methods in the field werent exactly bad though, he was a soldier at the end if the day. Yeah he was posted to perform executions but its not like he ran the battlefield like a mad man. He cared about what he was fighting for and had good reason, showed compassion towards his own side and the latter, whilst also aiding the poor on the way. I just cant justify why anyone could call him something like Hitlerm0zart

You're not the one doing it, so technically you don't have to justify it.

He wasn't just "posted to perform executions". He performed many ad hoc executions on his own. He was the guy who signed most death warrants in Castro's army and early regime. It was his habit to gather up large groups of people he suspected of being anti-revolutionary, interrogate them to an extreme degree, and then have them executed with or without confessions even for the half-hearted crimes he accused them of committing. Many of these were committing crimes no greater than owning property -- many more were the very peasants he claimed to be defending. He had mass executions of as many as 400 peasants at a time. Heck, in the first year alone, he executed thousands of people -- POST revolution people, in many cases for the most contrived of assocations. There simply IS NO WAY to spin his deeds and turn him intoa hero without turning many other monsters into heroes, including some of those we mentioned.

To me, things like this really come down to ethic, not just opportunity. Che left his post and went to fight other revolutions (more like spawn them in a very Leninist way, but I digress), but he was well on his track to becoming known as one of the greatest mass murderers in history. He doesn't deserve a merit bad for that, he deserves to be judged for the sociopathic ethic he held that made that kind of blood spillingpossible.

Didn't he kind of start killing quite randomly and brutally near the end of his life? Yeah, not really a fan of that dude...soldier-dark

[QUOTE="_BlueDuck_"]

Well, I have a t-shirt with him on it, so I guess he's not that bad.

taj7575

How/why the hell do you have a shirt of him and you don't even know what he did? Thats like wearing a Hitler shirt and saying "meh, don't know who this is, but the dude has a cool stache"

I bought it in Cuba, he's all the rage down there.

You realize most people's problem with the man isn't that he's a communist? I doubt very many people care about that at all, that's not even an issue.

One piece of trash human being. Best thing he did was dieing

Adrianstalker

Che was an authentic degenerate, a moral equivalent to Hitler Pol Pot, Stalin, Castro, Mugabe, and Saddam Hussein.

MarcusAntonius