America = Roman Empire?
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Probably. Before it fell, the Roman Empire consolidated itself, mandating a religion and killing those didnt follow it. It became far more authoritarian to confront the crumbling infrastructure. Its just a matter of time when we go down the same road. I dont mind, anything is better than this America of 2009.SchnauzerzEveryone hates imperialism nowadays. I doubt anyone would ever seriously accept something like that. Unless they did in disguise, like what the Soviet Union did.
No. The dynamics of the Roman Empire in terms of politics, economics, trade, etc. are not comparable to their American counterparts. While some similarities can be drawn, they're generally facile or inconsequential. You really can't compare events in history that occur over a long period of time when the time periods in which they occur are so distant from one another. Everything about human society was different. The idea that any developed nation can crumble as previous empires have is a notion borne from our inherent predisposition to rely on past experiences (history) to attempt to determine future events. Sometimes that is adequate, such as the French using the American Revolution as a blueprint for their respective revolution. History can be a great way to make logical guesses about what may occur later, but only in terms of recent history. Anyway...I don't want to ramble. Do some Wikipedia research, get some books out from the library, and eventually you'll understand why the comparison isn't...cogent, or valid.
Wait...you're going on about America becoming an empire? I should have read your post more thoroughly. You're not comparing the fall of the Roman Empire to the the presumed fall of America. You're implying that the U.S. is repeating history and establishing an empire as Rome did. Wow. Just....wow. That...that was the cocked blender.
It's called economics. We had an empire. Many other nations had an empire. They can no longer exist due to a million different reasons, but one is the ultimate reason: E-C-O-N-O-M-I-C-S. Yeah. Sorry.
No..the main reason for its collapse was being split by Constantine into the E and W...though the economy and bad emperors helped to have it crumble and die, though resurrected by the Byzantine empireAlphaRail
And then merged into the Ottoman Empire, which continued until 1923, when it became Turkey and various other lands in Europe and the Middle East. Isn't it wonderful how history just seems to carry itself through the ages?
[QUOTE="AlphaRail"]No..the main reason for its collapse was being split by Constantine into the E and W...though the economy and bad emperors helped to have it crumble and die, though resurrected by the Byzantine empirejetpower3
And then merged into the Ottoman Empire, which continued until 1922, when it became Turkey and various other lands in Europe and the Middle East. Isn't it wonderful how history just seems to carry itself through the ages?
If I say yes will you be my friend? :cry: ..Yes it is..I think?We've actually already discussed this topic on OT before.
The general concensus was that America is nowhere near as awesome as Rome because America doesn't have street orgies.
Yes and we're gonna start with South America, then Canada and then the European UnionDivergeUnifyI dont think America would be able to successfully take over the European union.
No. The dynamics of the Roman Empire in terms of politics, economics, trade, etc. are not comparable to their American counterparts. While some similarities can be drawn, they're generally facile or inconsequential. You really can't compare events in history that occur over a long period of time when the time periods in which they occur are so distant from one another. Everything about human society was different. The idea that any developed nation can crumble as previous empires have is a notion borne from our inherent predisposition to rely on past experiences (history) to attempt to determine future events. Sometimes that is adequate, such as the French using the American Revolution as a blueprint for their respective revolution. History can be a great way to make logical guesses about what may occur later, but only in terms of recent history. Anyway...I don't want to ramble. Do some Wikipedia research, get some books out from the library, and eventually you'll understand why the comparison isn't...cogent, or valid.YourChaosIsntMeAn unrivaled superpower, corrupting within, losing its will to preserve its ideals of republicanism, descending into hedonism - sound familiar? Obviously there wont be direct parralles, but there is alot we can learn from the Roman Empire
Indeed. Nor do we have bathrooms which exist exclusively for men to have sex with one another while discussing politics, slave children, and lion wrestling.We've actually already discussed this topic on OT before.
The general concensus was that America is nowhere near as awesome as Rome because America doesn't have street orgies.
MetroidPrimePwn
[QUOTE="Schnauzerz"]Probably. Before it fell, the Roman Empire consolidated itself, mandating a religion and killing those didnt follow it. It became far more authoritarian to confront the crumbling infrastructure. Its just a matter of time when we go down the same road. I dont mind, anything is better than this America of 2009.jetpower3Everyone hates imperialism nowadays. I doubt anyone would ever seriously accept something like that. Unless they did in disguise, like what the Soviet Union did.
I wouldn't be so quick to assume that. If economic conditions become bleak enough, it's surprising what kinds of leadership the masses turn to in dire situations of survival. Dictatorships and authoritarian regimes have arisen swiftly from dire economic conditions. It's happened in many different nations in the past. The USA is not immune. It could just as easily happen here in the future.
[QUOTE="DivergeUnify"]Yes and we're gonna start with South America, then Canada and then the European UnionNinja-HippoI dont think America would be able to successfully take over the European union.
Yeah. Unless they can come up with something like how the blitzkrieg was used by Nazi Germany during WWII. And after all, it did conquer almost all of continental Europe.
Everyone hates imperialism nowadays. I doubt anyone would ever seriously accept something like that. Unless they did in disguise, like what the Soviet Union did.[QUOTE="jetpower3"][QUOTE="Schnauzerz"]Probably. Before it fell, the Roman Empire consolidated itself, mandating a religion and killing those didnt follow it. It became far more authoritarian to confront the crumbling infrastructure. Its just a matter of time when we go down the same road. I dont mind, anything is better than this America of 2009.StrawberryHill
I wouldn't be so quick to assume that. If economic conditions become bleak enough, it's surprising what kinds of leadership the masses turn to in dire situations of survival. Dictatorships and authoritarian regimes have arisen swiftly from dire economic conditions. It's happened in many different nations in the past. The USA is not immune. It could just as easily happen here in the future.
You're right in some parts. But it also has to do with the times people lived in back then. People can get just as desperate, but they are also more educated, and there are many regulations and societal functions that help to prevent that kind of stuff. You would need something to happen that would be so disastrous, and such a shock, that it would cause some of the most developed countries in the world to turn to radicals (such as with how Hitler seized control). But to reach that point in a developed nation, you would need to see something to the effect of people burning money to use as fuel for fire, becasue it's just that worthless. And I don't see anything that extreme just yet.
Probably. Before it fell, the Roman Empire consolidated itself, mandating a religion and killing those didnt follow it. It became far more authoritarian to confront the crumbling infrastructure. Its just a matter of time when we go down the same road. I dont mind, anything is better than this America of 2009.Schnauzerz
Actually, throughout most of the Roman Republic/Empire they were quite tolerant of other religions as long as it didn't threaten the Republic/Empire's security. The persecution of the Christians during Nero's reign was more due to Nero's need to find a scapegoat for his rule's excesses than anything about Christianity. The deaths of the Christians in the Colosseum actually impressed Romans so much that it helped Christianity gain converts.
[QUOTE="YourChaosIsntMe"]No. The dynamics of the Roman Empire in terms of politics, economics, trade, etc. are not comparable to their American counterparts. While some similarities can be drawn, they're generally facile or inconsequential. You really can't compare events in history that occur over a long period of time when the time periods in which they occur are so distant from one another. Everything about human society was different. The idea that any developed nation can crumble as previous empires have is a notion borne from our inherent predisposition to rely on past experiences (history) to attempt to determine future events. Sometimes that is adequate, such as the French using the American Revolution as a blueprint for their respective revolution. History can be a great way to make logical guesses about what may occur later, but only in terms of recent history. Anyway...I don't want to ramble. Do some Wikipedia research, get some books out from the library, and eventually you'll understand why the comparison isn't...cogent, or valid.SchnauzerzAn unrivaled superpower, corrupting within, losing its will to preserve its ideals of republicanism, descending into hedonism. Obviously there wont be direct parralles, but there is alot we can learn from the Roman Empire You fail to understand the banality of those comparisons. I mean no offense by saying that. "We can learn" isn't the same as "the comparison(s) exist and they produce the same outcome." More importantly, some of those "parallels" don't even exist, specifically "descending into hedonism." That comparison is invalid and inadequate for at least half a dozen different reasons, from the variability of morality to the nature of ethics and social control in modern Western culture. Also, the notion that U.S. politics reflects Republicanism less now than it has in previous decades or centuries is sensationalism. I like to think that you're educated enough to know about voting rights, labor laws, obscenity laws, etc. in American History, and those are only topics pertaining to U.S. domestic policy.
I understand where you're coming from, I do. I would have agreed with you 5 years ago. I guess that sounds arrogant, but I don't intend for it to.
[QUOTE="Schnauzerz"]Probably. Before it fell, the Roman Empire consolidated itself, mandating a religion and killing those didnt follow it. It became far more authoritarian to confront the crumbling infrastructure. Its just a matter of time when we go down the same road. I dont mind, anything is better than this America of 2009.Buck_Hotep
Actually, throughout most of the Roman Republic/Empire they were quite tolerant of other religions as long as it didn't threaten the Republic/Empire's security. The persecution of the Christians during Nero's reign was more due to Nero's need to find a scapegoat for his rule's excesses than anything about Christianity. The deaths of the Christians in the Colosseum actually impressed Romans so much that it helped Christianity gain converts.
It still mandated a religion regardless. Diocletian killed the Christians; also Theodosius actually literally mandated Christianity as the official religion of Rome . Yea, they were relatively tolerant - they let the Jew practice their religion - but brutal by todays standards.[QUOTE="Schnauzerz"][QUOTE="YourChaosIsntMe"]No. The dynamics of the Roman Empire in terms of politics, economics, trade, etc. are not comparable to their American counterparts. While some similarities can be drawn, they're generally facile or inconsequential. You really can't compare events in history that occur over a long period of time when the time periods in which they occur are so distant from one another. Everything about human society was different. The idea that any developed nation can crumble as previous empires have is a notion borne from our inherent predisposition to rely on past experiences (history) to attempt to determine future events. Sometimes that is adequate, such as the French using the American Revolution as a blueprint for their respective revolution. History can be a great way to make logical guesses about what may occur later, but only in terms of recent history. Anyway...I don't want to ramble. Do some Wikipedia research, get some books out from the library, and eventually you'll understand why the comparison isn't...cogent, or valid.YourChaosIsntMeAn unrivaled superpower, corrupting within, losing its will to preserve its ideals of republicanism, descending into hedonism. Obviously there wont be direct parralles, but there is alot we can learn from the Roman Empire You fail to understand the banality of those comparisons. I mean no offense by saying that. "We can learn" isn't the same as "the comparison(s) exist and they produce the same outcome." More importantly, some of those "parallels" don't even exist, specifically "descending into hedonism." That comparison is invalid and inadequate for at least half a dozen different reasons, from the variability of morality to the nature of ethics and social control in modern Western culture. I understand where you're coming from, I do. I would have agreed with you 5 years ago. I guess that sounds arrogant, but I don't intend for it to. Put aside the subjectivity of morals. When a populace who previously focused on conquering and perfecting a Republic forsakes that largely in favor of drinking and orgies, there is going to be a problem.
That's because France and Poland's militaries at the time were hopelessly inadequate, and Hitler was appeased and allowed to build up a vast army which he promised was only for defensive purposes.Yeah. Unless they can come up with something as how the blitzkrieg was used by Nazi Germany during WWII. And after all, he did conquer almost all of continental Europe.
jetpower3
[QUOTE="Buck_Hotep"][QUOTE="Schnauzerz"]Probably. Before it fell, the Roman Empire consolidated itself, mandating a religion and killing those didnt follow it. It became far more authoritarian to confront the crumbling infrastructure. Its just a matter of time when we go down the same road. I dont mind, anything is better than this America of 2009.Schnauzerz
Actually, throughout most of the Roman Republic/Empire they were quite tolerant of other religions as long as it didn't threaten the Republic/Empire's security. The persecution of the Christians during Nero's reign was more due to Nero's need to find a scapegoat for his rule's excesses than anything about Christianity. The deaths of the Christians in the Colosseum actually impressed Romans so much that it helped Christianity gain converts.
It still mandated a religion regardless. Diocletian killed the Christians; also Theodosius actually literally mandated Christianity as the official religion of Rome . Yea, they were relatively tolerant - they let the Jew practice their religion - but brutal by todays standards.All those deaths never about the religion itself but the power the worshippers were gaining. By their standards the Roman Empire were more than tolerant compared to other civilizations of the same era. Really, the Roman Empire didn't really bein persecuting people for their faith until Christianity became the official religion. Even though it was more those in power wanting to make sure no other group gained enough power to become a problem.
No. There are far too many checks and balances in the US. The US isn't spread out into "territories" like Rome was, each state has it's own power unlike Rome. We're in a screwed up situation financially, but not to the extent Rome was when Julias Ceasar took over.btaylor2404The U.S. has had imperialist tendencies throughout its history, however. There was the various Indian Wars, the Mexican war to conquer the southwest, colonization in Liberia, getting the British to cede parts of the Pacific Northwest through treaty, the Spanish American war in which we took Guam, Puerto Rico, and the Phillipines from Spain, to name some incidents. Even though we're a republic, we've still been conquering an "empire" the same way most of what we think of as the "Roman Empire" was conquered while the Republican government was still in place.
Theres some similarities but even thats irrelavent. Even if the government was to fall many countries will come to our aid and help rebuild.
[QUOTE="jetpower3"]That's because France and Poland's militaries at the time were hopelessly inadequate, and Hitler was appeased and allowed to build up a vast army which he promised was only for defensive purposes.Yeah. Unless they can come up with something as how the blitzkrieg was used by Nazi Germany during WWII. And after all, he did conquer almost all of continental Europe.
Ninja-Hippo
I do admit it was strange times, and it will be difficult for a nation that's an island to Europe to launch any kind of offensive with the intention to conquer. But maybe after they're again ravaged by a double whammy of a devastating war and a super financial, political, ecnomic, and social crisis, it might be easier ;).
Is America the new Roman Empire? No
Is it the new global empire? Yes
Regardless of what some people say, America is indeed an empire. It is currently the nation with the most economic leverage in the world. It has the most formidible military today with military bases around the entire world. It also has major social and political influence worldwide. The United States became an empire as the result of the Cold War, much like the Soviet Union. It spread its influence across the world, seeking to gain national benefit and defeat the U.S.S.R. Now, we(especially Americans) must realize that all empires rise and all empires fall. You cannot maintain a global hegemon forever, and America is no exception. What I am sick of is that some of my fellow Americans believe that we are invunerable just because we are America. We need to realize we cannot manage our nation like this, and we should massively downgrade our power around the world before it collapses the empire and the country itself. What I believe is that unfortunately, we are seeing that fall today. The U.S. econnomy is collapsing at a more rapid pace than in the GD, it is fighting two highly expensive wars with no way out anytime soon(The idea that we can get out of Iraq in 16 months and achieve our objectives is not realistic). It is the only nation with military bases around the world, and it is the most deeply hated nation/people in the world. To make things even better, we live in a heavily globalized world, so if the American economy falls everyone else will be hurting too. America in 2009 now has the grave 3 signs of imperial collapse, all of which have happened to every collapsed empire:
1. Military over-expansion
2. Severe and rapid Economic collapse
3.Deteriorating social and political values at home and around the world
Is America doomed? That is up to us, but the way we are going, this nation will not last. I just hope people realize the possibilities and not be dead set on naive optimism. If we are smart we will be like the British and slowly gid rid of our empire before it implodes and destroys the country. Regardless, I am already prepared mentally and physically(as hard as it was to let go of the nation I love). I just hope I am dead wrong, but human actions and history says otherwise :(
[QUOTE="YourChaosIsntMe"][QUOTE="Schnauzerz"] An unrivaled superpower, corrupting within, losing its will to preserve its ideals of republicanism, descending into hedonism. Obviously there wont be direct parralles, but there is alot we can learn from the Roman Empire SchnauzerzYou fail to understand the banality of those comparisons. I mean no offense by saying that. "We can learn" isn't the same as "the comparison(s) exist and they produce the same outcome." More importantly, some of those "parallels" don't even exist, specifically "descending into hedonism." That comparison is invalid and inadequate for at least half a dozen different reasons, from the variability of morality to the nature of ethics and social control in modern Western culture. I understand where you're coming from, I do. I would have agreed with you 5 years ago. I guess that sounds arrogant, but I don't intend for it to. Put aside the subjectivity of morals. When a populace who previously focused on conquering and perfecting a Republic forsakes that largely in favor of drinking and orgies, there is going to be a problem. It's not about moral subjectivity, but rather the effect that a different set of moral standards has on circumstances and the way they impact culture and society. You're still making a fallacious comparison between a perceived similarity that doesn't actually exist by any means, and it's imperative that you understand that. Even in terms of the fall of the Roman Republic and eventual collapse of the empire, the expression of their sexuality was only a minor factor. Political factors, as well as external factors outside of Roman control (such as social organization among groups previously deemed inferior), proved far more destructive to the Roman Empire, but I digress. I'm tired, so I'm going to bed.
On3ShotOneKillHello, hyperbole, how are you today? So you're saying that Howard Zinn quotes + propaganda = America is crumbling and still maintains an empire? I can't see color anymore. What happened to it?
Uhh...China says hello, they have been around for a LONGGGG time...same with India and Egypt...so your point is somewhat invalid.. Also, the main reason for all collapses of empires was because it got too large to control. Well really the downfall, then what helped is terrible economy, bad leaders and invasion. I knew I forgot something in my other post about what is a sub reason for an empire's downfall :P.Is America the new Roman Empire? No
Is it the new global empire? Yes
Regardless of what some people say, America is indeed an empire. It is currently the nation with the most economic leverage in the world. It has the most formidible military today with military bases around the entire world. It also has major social and political influence worldwide. The United States became an empire as the result of the Cold War, much like the Soviet Union. It spread its influence across the world, seeking to gain national benefit and defeat the U.S.S.R. Now, we(especially Americans) must realize that all empires rise and all empires fall. You cannot maintain a global hegemon forever, and America is no exception. What I am sick of is that some of my fellow Americans believe that we are invunerable just because we are America. We need to realize we cannot manage our nation like this, and we should massively downgrade our power around the world before it collapses the empire and the country itself. What I believe is that unfortunately, we are seeing that fall today. The U.S. econnomy is collapsing at a more rapid pace than in the GD, it is fighting two highly expensive wars with no way out anytime soon(The idea that we can get out of Iraq in 16 months and achieve our objectives is not realistic). It is the only nation with military bases around the world, and it is the most deeply hated nation/people in the world. To make things even better, we live in a heavily globalized world, so if the American economy falls everyone else will be hurting too. America in 2009 now has the grave 3 signs of imperial collapse, all of which have happened to every collapsed empire:
1. Military over-expansion
2. Severe and rapid Economic collapse
3.Deteriorating social and political values at home and around the world
Is America doomed? That is up to us, but the way we are going, this nation will not last. I just hope people realize the possibilities and not be dead set on naive optimism. If we are smart we will be like the British and slowly gid rid of our empire before it implodes and destroys the country. Regardless, I am already prepared mentally and physically(as hard as it was to let go of the nation I love). I just hope I am dead wrong, but human actions and history says otherwise :(
On3ShotOneKill
Most likely we will just no longer be the biggest super power. Maybe one day we won't even be a super power...will end up like Italy and England. Unless with new tech, things found only in the US are used for it. Or something that we can mass produce better than others. Like weed or something that will probably come around :P.
[QUOTE="Schnauzerz"][QUOTE="YourChaosIsntMe"] You fail to understand the banality of those comparisons. I mean no offense by saying that. "We can learn" isn't the same as "the comparison(s) exist and they produce the same outcome." More importantly, some of those "parallels" don't even exist, specifically "descending into hedonism." That comparison is invalid and inadequate for at least half a dozen different reasons, from the variability of morality to the nature of ethics and social control in modern Western culture. I understand where you're coming from, I do. I would have agreed with you 5 years ago. I guess that sounds arrogant, but I don't intend for it to.YourChaosIsntMePut aside the subjectivity of morals. When a populace who previously focused on conquering and perfecting a Republic forsakes that largely in favor of drinking and orgies, there is going to be a problem. It's not about moral subjectivity, but rather the effect that a different set of moral standards has on circumstances and the way they impact culture and society. Your still making a fallacious comparison between a perceived similarity that doesn't actually exist by any means, and it's imperative that you understand that. Even in terms of the fall of the Roman Republic and eventual collapse of the empire, the expression of their sexuality was only a minor factor. Political factors, as well as external factors outside of Roman control (such as social organization among groups previously deemed inferior), proved far more destructive to the Roman Empire, but I digress. I'm also tired, so I'm going to bed. Yes of course it was a minor factor, but I was using it as an example among other things which you cherry-picked. And hedonism - and I couldn't care less about what the Romans were doing - from a pragmatic standpoint was detrimental to the Roman Empire. It sapped a once vibrant people of their will to sustain an Empire. No matter what you argue, the fact remains that a country preoccupied with sex, and beer will have a lower productivity. Regardless, the most important correlation is that when a superpower is so strong that nothing else can rival it, only itself can defeat it. And than could be said about any hyper power.
[QUOTE="On3ShotOneKill"]Hello, hyperbole, how are you today? So you're saying that Howard Zinn quotes + propaganda = America is crumbling and still maintains an empire? I can't see color anymore. What happened to it?Is America the new Roman Empire? No
Is it the new global empire? Yes
Regardless of what some people say, America is indeed an empire. It is currently the nation with the most economic leverage in the world. It has the most formidible military today with military bases around the entire world. It also has major social and political influence worldwide. The United States became an empire as the result of the Cold War, much like the Soviet Union. It spread its influence across the world, seeking to gain national benefit and defeat the U.S.S.R. Now, we(especially Americans) must realize that all empires rise and all empires fall. You cannot maintain a global hegemon forever, and America is no exception. What I am sick of is that some of my fellow Americans believe that we are invunerable just because we are America. We need to realize we cannot manage our nation like this, and we should massively downgrade our power around the world before it collapses the empire and the nation itself. What I believe is that unfortunately, we are seeing that fall today. The U.S. econnomy is collapsing at a more rapid pace than in the GD, it is fighting two highly expensive wars with no way out anytime soon(The idea that we can get out of Iraq in 16 months and achieve our objectives is not realistic). It is the only nation with military bases around the world, and it is the most deeply hated nation/people in the world. To make things even better, we live in a heavily globalized world, so if the American economy falls everyone else will be hurting too. America in 2009 now has the grave 3 signs of imperial collapse, all of which have happened to every collapsed empire:
1. Military over-expansion
2. Severe and rapid Economic collapse
3.Deteriorating social and political values at home and around the world
Is America doomed? That is up to us, but the way we are going, this nation will not last. I just hope people realize the possibilities and not be dead set on naive optimism. If we are smart we will be like the British and slowly gid rid of our empire before it implodes and destroys the country. Regardless, I am already prepared mentally and physically(as hard as it was to let go of the nation I love). I just hope I am dead wrong, but human actions and history says otherwise :(
YourChaosIsntMe
The Soviet Union still controlled Eastern Europe before it collapsed, Rome contolled its territory(divided however), so how does that have any relevance?
Btw, who the hell is Howard Zinn, and would be so kind as to point out what is propaganda?
[QUOTE="On3ShotOneKill"]Uhh...China says hello, they have been around for a LONGGGG time...same with India and Egypt...so your point is somewhat invalid.. Also, the main reason for all collapses of empires was because it got too large to control. Well really the downfall, then what helped is terrible economy, bad leaders and invasion. I knew I forgot something in my other post about what is a sub reason for an empire's downfall :P.Is America the new Roman Empire? No
Is it the new global empire? Yes
Regardless of what some people say, America is indeed an empire. It is currently the nation with the most economic leverage in the world. It has the most formidible military today with military bases around the entire world. It also has major social and political influence worldwide. The United States became an empire as the result of the Cold War, much like the Soviet Union. It spread its influence across the world, seeking to gain national benefit and defeat the U.S.S.R. Now, we(especially Americans) must realize that all empires rise and all empires fall. You cannot maintain a global hegemon forever, and America is no exception. What I am sick of is that some of my fellow Americans believe that we are invunerable just because we are America. We need to realize we cannot manage our nation like this, and we should massively downgrade our power around the world before it collapses the empire and the country itself. What I believe is that unfortunately, we are seeing that fall today. The U.S. econnomy is collapsing at a more rapid pace than in the GD, it is fighting two highly expensive wars with no way out anytime soon(The idea that we can get out of Iraq in 16 months and achieve our objectives is not realistic). It is the only nation with military bases around the world, and it is the most deeply hated nation/people in the world. To make things even better, we live in a heavily globalized world, so if the American economy falls everyone else will be hurting too. America in 2009 now has the grave 3 signs of imperial collapse, all of which have happened to every collapsed empire:
1. Military over-expansion
2. Severe and rapid Economic collapse
3.Deteriorating social and political values at home and around the world
Is America doomed? That is up to us, but the way we are going, this nation will not last. I just hope people realize the possibilities and not be dead set on naive optimism. If we are smart we will be like the British and slowly gid rid of our empire before it implodes and destroys the country. Regardless, I am already prepared mentally and physically(as hard as it was to let go of the nation I love). I just hope I am dead wrong, but human actions and history says otherwise :(
AlphaRail
Most likely we will just no longer be the biggest super power. Maybe one day we won't even be a super power...will end up like Italy and England. Unless with new tech, things found only in the US are used for it. Or something that we can mass produce better than others. Like weed or something that will probably come around :P.
China is not and never has been a global empire my friend, only a country with significant influence in its region.
"Also, the main reason for all collapses of empires was because it got too large to control." Then what the hell is the U.S. doing spending billions maintaining military bases around the world and waging wars in different countries only because of political and economic reasons? No other country is doing that on the scale we do and that is pure expansionism/imperialism. We never did this before the Cold War because we were isolationalist and not a global empire, just a global power.
China is not and never has been a global empire my friend, only a country with significant influence in its region.
"Also, the main reason for all collapses of empires was because it got too large to control." Then what the hell is the U.S. doing spending billions maintaining military bases around the world and waging wars in different countries only because of political, and economic reasons? No other country is doing that on the scale we do and that is pure expansionism/imperialism. We never did this before the Cold War because we were isolationalist and not a global empire, just a global power.
As I said in response to another post, we did have imperialist/expansionist policies long before the Cold War.[QUOTE="On3ShotOneKill"]As I said in response to another post, we did have imperialist/expansionist policies long before the Cold War.China is not and never has been a global empire my friend, only a country with significant influence in its region.
"Also, the main reason for all collapses of empires was because it got too large to control." Then what the hell is the U.S. doing spending billions maintaining military bases around the world and waging wars in different countries only because of political, and economic reasons? No other country is doing that on the scale we do and that is pure expansionism/imperialism. We never did this before the Cold War because we were isolationalist and not a global empire, just a global power.
fidosim
We had a few policies, not an empire. we did not have the most dominant economic, military, and social influence before the Cold War Fidsim. We certainly did not have it to the magintude we have it today. You must remember that we are a very young country, so there is not a long histroy to go by.
[QUOTE="StrawberryHill"][QUOTE="jetpower3"] Everyone hates imperialism nowadays. I doubt anyone would ever seriously accept something like that. Unless they did in disguise, like what the Soviet Union did. jetpower3
I wouldn't be so quick to assume that. If economic conditions become bleak enough, it's surprising what kinds of leadership the masses turn to in dire situations of survival. Dictatorships and authoritarian regimes have arisen swiftly from dire economic conditions. It's happened in many different nations in the past. The USA is not immune. It could just as easily happen here in the future.
You're right in some parts. But it also has to do with the times people lived in back then. People can get just as desperate, but they are also more educated, and there are many regulations and societal functions that help to prevent that kind of stuff. You would need something to happen that would be so disastrous, and such a shock, that it would cause some of the most developed countries in the world to turn to radicals (such as with how Hitler seized control). But to reach that point in a developed nation, you would need to see something to the effect of people burning money to use as fuel for fire, becasue it's just that worthless. And I don't see anything that extreme just yet.
Intelligently said. You could be right. And I hope your are. I guess I'm more of a pessimist when it comes to the nature of humans, the stability of the global economy and the current balance of geopolitical relations. I think something extreme enough could happen to set the wheels in motion for people to accept radical leaders...even in the USA. And it could very easily happen during our lives. The US's economy is in serious trouble. We only know the tip of the iceberg as to how bad things really are.
Lately i have been looking at roman history and i was reading how the republic fell and it became an empire. The reason there republic fell is because there economy was crumbling and there government was corrupted so they had difficulties and became an empire. America's government is corrupted and the economy is screwed up so do u think history is repeating itself?GamerTron0
maybe not like what your thinking but I believe we are soon coming to the end as our reign of the sole super power, thats how it always works. I forget teh term, but every dominate power/empire/nation in the history of the world does it. it grows and prospers, becomes dominate and things like mathimatic advancements and such stem from the power, they enter a golden age, they start weaken, corruption takes place and spreads, the nation divides, and it falls, either as the leading power or apart completely and another nation takes its place. this is how it has always works, the reason(s) for the collapse are varied and not the same but they all follow teh same basic pattern. and the way teh economy is going I wouldn't be suprised if it is our time.
[QUOTE="YourChaosIsntMe"][QUOTE="Schnauzerz"] Put aside the subjectivity of morals. When a populace who previously focused on conquering and perfecting a Republic forsakes that largely in favor of drinking and orgies, there is going to be a problem. SchnauzerzIt's not about moral subjectivity, but rather the effect that a different set of moral standards has on circumstances and the way they impact culture and society. Your still making a fallacious comparison between a perceived similarity that doesn't actually exist by any means, and it's imperative that you understand that. Even in terms of the fall of the Roman Republic and eventual collapse of the empire, the expression of their sexuality was only a minor factor. Political factors, as well as external factors outside of Roman control (such as social organization among groups previously deemed inferior), proved far more destructive to the Roman Empire, but I digress. I'm also tired, so I'm going to bed. Yes of course it was a minor factor, but I was using it as an example among other things which you cherry-picked. And hedonism - and I couldn't care less about what the Romans were doing - from a pragmatic standpoint was detrimental to the Roman Empire. It sapped a once vibrant people of their will to sustain an Empire. No matter what you argue, the fact remains that a country preoccupied with sex, and beer will have a lower productivity. Regardless, the most important correlation is that when a superpower is so strong that nothing else can rival it, only it itself is the only thing that can defeat it. And than could be said about any hyper power. ....You still don't understand, and now you're turning it into a confrontation through implication (your reference to cherry-picking). Cherry-picking in this context implies picking the most invalid or least relevant of a number of your assertions, which also implies that there are more valid statements to address. I clearly stated that all of your examples are irrelevant or non-existent in comparing the two and their eventual outcome. Many of the comparisons drawn between the two are fictitious, and when they do exist, they are often taken out of context (by many, many people). Taking them out of context could mean considering the effect of Republicanism (or degradation of Republicanism) on a society when our modern concept of Republicanism is so far removed from that of the Roman Republic that it has more similarities with Marxism, but that's nearing hyperbole on my part, hahaha.
But this is all hypothetical anyway, because the idea that the U.S. was ever more of a republic than it is today or that it is "still an empire" is simply ludicrous. You're speaking with eloquent phrases that are short-sighted. "Regardless, the most important....it itself can defeat it." It's a vague reference to history, which really isn't completely true in terms of the Roman Empire anyway. The world isn't that simple, especially when you're talking about empires, countries and economies that span across the globe. The loss of power, influence, economic stability or even domestic social or political order isn't necessarily a product of self-defeatism either. "A country..preoccupied...lower productivity." In this statement, you fail or refuse to consider the millions of differences that exist on a sociological or cultural level. Even if we assume that hedonism is a primary factor in the demise of Roman culture and the empire, there still isn't a correlation between Roman hedonism and American culture. A phrase like "America is hedonistic" is sensationalism. All of Western culture is generally more hedonistic than other cultures in the underdeveloped or developing world, but this is relative. Furthermore, you choose to undermine the difference between the cultural perception of sexuality, in terms of morals and expected results of interpersonal relationships (or psychology in general). All humans are preoccupied with sex, and marketing married to Psychology produces sex oriented products, commercials, etc. around the world; much of this is produced outside of America, and often outside of Western culture itself. Likewise, Hedonism is not analogous with sexual promiscuity.
Furthermore, the developed world is no longer directed by independent political groups, states, or factions that are constantly in conflict. It is not even a possibility that the U.S. will "crumble" like the Roman Republic or Roman Empire. The impetus for such an assumption is rooted in the idea that obsolete or anachronistic forms of political or economic organization still exist today, when this is anything but the case. These discussions are inevitable during a major recession, but they exist without any real consideration for the wonderful and complex world of macroeconomics on an international scale.
Remember, I'm not trying to crap all over your ideas. I'm actually going to bed now. I hate you, and tomorrow I'm going to find you and kill you.
Edit: Yes, I'm going to kill someone because I enjoy responding to him. He knew that it would incite me into rambling.
Edit 2: It was in paragraphs when I composed it.
>On3ShotOneKillI'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I wasn't asking "if America is crumbling, how can it maintain an empire?" I suppose it could have easily been misinterpreted that way. I was being sarcastic. Howard Zinn is an American historian and academic/scholar, and the author of "The People's History of the United States of America". He is generally critical of U.S. domestic and foreign policy, romanticized events in U.S. history, and generally offers a secondary (and exceptionally important and often more valid) perspective on U.S. history. My use of the word "propaganda" was supposed to be humorous. Either way...
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