Alcoholism: disease or not?

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]I've got little sympathy; people may be genetically predisposed to alcoholism, but it is a consequence of their own lack of will power that one reaches the state of alcoholism.MrGeezer

How is one supposed to exercise "will power" when they don't even REALIZE that they're becoming alcoholics? That's what addictions tend to do to people. This is especially true in a society which ENOURAGES drinking as the normal thing to do.

drinking has been the normal thing to do for millenia, and for good reason.

And as for addiction, people are very aware of their addictions, they just like it so damn much they dont fess up when confronted.

Addicts are liars, theyre not stupid...they know they have a problems.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]I've got little sympathy; people may be genetically predisposed to alcoholism, but it is a consequence of their own lack of will power that one reaches the state of alcoholism.MrGeezer

How is one supposed to exercise "will power" when they don't even REALIZE that they're becoming alcoholics? That's what addictions tend to do to people. This is especially true in a society which ENOURAGES drinking as the normal thing to do.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

I've got little sympathy; people may be genetically predisposed to alcoholism, but it is a consequence of their own lack of will power that one reaches the state of alcoholism.MetalGear_Ninty

How is one supposed to exercise "will power" when they don't even REALIZE that they're becoming alcoholics? That's what addictions tend to do to people. This is especially true in a society which ENOURAGES drinking as the normal thing to do.

drinking has been the normal thing to do for millenia, and for good reason.

And as for addiction, people are very aware of their addictions, they just like it so damn much they dont fess up when confronted.

Addicts are liars, theyre not stupid...they know they have a problems.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]I've got little sympathy; people may be genetically predisposed to alcoholism, but it is a consequence of their own lack of will power that one reaches the state of alcoholism.MetalGear_Ninty

How is one supposed to exercise "will power" when they don't even REALIZE that they're becoming alcoholics? That's what addictions tend to do to people. This is especially true in a society which ENOURAGES drinking as the normal thing to do.

saying people get cardiac arrest from becoming alcoholics and then stopping their alcohol consumption

is like saying people die from World of Warcraft.

Yea, there are documented cases of it happening, but it doesnt happen frequently enough for it to be a real concern.

saying people get cardiac arrest from becoming alcoholics and then stopping their alcohol consumption

is like saying people die from World of Warcraft.

Yea, there are documented cases of it happening, but it doesnt happen frequently enough for it to be a real concern.

mrbojangles25

People DON'T die from World Of Warcraft. They die as a result of combined factors such as sleep deprivation, dehydration, and exhaustion. Meanwhile, for ANYONE to die as a result of alcohol withdrawal certainly shows that addiction is NOT "all in the mind" or "a matter of willpower."

I know you don't like anyone speaking badly about alcohol, I see you here all the time talking about how it's so healthy and everyone should drink it. But we're talking about a seriously dangerous and highly addictive drug, and it's messed to be going around telling people that they can just stop if they have a problem.

Would you advocate people to start smoking cigarettes? I mean, why not? If they end up having a problem, they can just stop, right?

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

How is one supposed to exercise "will power" when they don't even REALIZE that they're becoming alcoholics? That's what addictions tend to do to people. This is especially true in a society which ENOURAGES drinking as the normal thing to do.

clayron

drinking has been the normalthing to do for millenia, and for good reason.

And as for addiction, people are very aware of their addictions, they just like it so damn much they dont fess up when confronted.

Addicts are liars, theyre not stupid...they know they have a problems.

I was addicted to cigarettes. You know how I could tell?

when I woke up, I wanted a cigarette
when I drove to work, I wanted a cigarette
when I was at work, I wanted a cigarette
when I drove home from work, I wanted a cigarette
when I got done eating, I wanted a cigarette
when I got bored of Gamespot or gaming, I wanted a cigarette
when I went downtown and drank, I wanted a cigarette
when I was done taking a crap, I wanted a cigarette
when I brought a girl home and after we did our thing, I wanted a cigarette
when I watched TV, I wanted a cigarette
when I got done working out, I wanted a cigarette
when I had a free hand available, I wanted to stick a cigarette in it.
...all I gotta say is thank god its illegal to smoke indoors, I would have been a chimney.

when pretty much all hours of the day, except after immediate consumption, you crave something...you have an addiction. If you quit, and yet that craving still exists (Oh lord I want tobacco right now), you had an addiction.

and I denied it to myself, despite knowing in my heart I had a problem. It was only when I looked at my bank statement and say how many times I was going to 711 and buying smokes that I realized my once-habit turned into an addiction.

And that is the whole issue: sometimes I feel addiction is just a term used to describe a habit gone out of control. Sure, there are genuine chemical addictions such as heroin, crack, etc but those are exceptions.

and I have friends that are alcoholics; their families all have history of alcoholism as well. I told them "I think youre an alcoholic" and one of them replied "I Know" and then we kept on drinking at 7am lol. I think she thinks that I was joking.

And that is the whole issue: sometimes I feel addiction is just a term used to describe a habit gone out of control. Sure, there are genuine chemical addictions such as heroin, crack, etc but those are exceptions.

mrbojangles25

Yeah, no one's REALLY addicted to alcohol, it's just a habit. :roll:

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

saying people get cardiac arrest from becoming alcoholics and then stopping their alcohol consumption

is like saying people die from World of Warcraft.

Yea, there are documented cases of it happening, but it doesnt happen frequently enough for it to be a real concern.

MrGeezer

People DON'T die from World Of Warcraft. They die as a result of combined factors such as sleep deprivation, dehydration, and exhaustion. Meanwhile, for ANYONE to die as a result of alcohol withdrawal certainly shows that addiction is NOT "all in the mind" or "a matter of willpower."

I know you don't like anyone speaking badly about alcohol, I see you here all the time talking about how it's so healthy and everyone should drink it. But we're talking about a seriously dangerous and highly addictive drug, and it's messed to be going around telling people that they can just stop if they have a problem.

Would you advocate people to start smoking cigarettes? I mean, why not? If they end up having a problem, they can just stop, right?

hmmm good point about WoW.

and no, I dont mind you speaking ill of alcohol. I may be the resident defender and champion of alcoholic beverages, but I know enough to know that it can be dangerous if taking out of moderation.

its just, idunno, I dont see alcohol as addictive. At least no more than chocolate, coffee, posting on OT, etc.. People have addictive personalities, sure, but alcohol addictive? Not sure about that.

as for stopping, 100% of my personal experience and about 90% of what Ive read really is about just stopping. In the examples ive read and experienced, people just stopped. They had support from friends and family and AA and sponsors, sure, but they stopped.

Next to losing weight, quitting smoking is the hardest thing Ive ever done, and I only had a moderate addiction (4-6 packs a week, depending on social life). I cannot imagine how hard it is for someone with a severe addiction.

So let me just say this, before I come off as a total jackass lol...habit, addiction, disease...call if whatever you want,so long as youget help, get over it, and for those of us not addicted lets just practice some moderation

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

And that is the whole issue: sometimes I feel addiction is just a term used to describe a habit gone out of control. Sure, there are genuine chemical addictions such as heroin, crack, etc but those are exceptions.

MrGeezer

Yeah, no one's REALLY addicted to alcohol, it's just a habit. :roll:

what can I say, I am an optimist.

by calling and "addiction" a "severe habit" youre t urning it into a mental thing, something you can overcome.

I just see people that view such things as addictions as weakening the human race:

1. they tellyou youhave a serious problem
2. that its not yourfault
3.and that you cant overcome it on your own.

These are the same folks that sue TV stations for "wardrobe malfunctions" and want to ban violent video games. Theyre turning the country into sniffling little sissies.

Well, guess what?

1. Yea, you got a big problem.
2. Actually, it is your fault. You started drinking, and like an idiot you didnt know when to stop and now you crave it
3. And yea, you can overcome it on your own. Moral support helps, sure, but in the end its your arm lifting the bottle to your mouth.

You know how you get over alcohol and other "addictions"? Stop lying to yourself, grow some balls, tell your friends and family you got a problem and want help, and take it day by day until the cravings subside to near nothing. And, for the rest of your life, keep your guard up

well i dont know about it being a disease or not but the old saying does work here. anything even good things in excess are bad.

>*really long post*

when pretty much all hours of the day, except after immediate consumption, you crave something...you have an addiction. If you quit, and yet that craving still exists (Oh lord I want tobacco right now), you had an addiction.

and I denied it to myself, despite knowing in my heart I had a problem. It was only when I looked at my bank statement and say how many times I was going to 711 and buying smokes that I realized my once-habit turned into an addiction.

And that is the whole issue: sometimes I feel addiction is just a term used to describe a habit gone out of control. Sure, there are genuine chemical addictions such as heroin, crack, etc but those are exceptions.

and I have friends that are alcoholics; their families all have history of alcoholism as well. I told them "I think youre an alcoholic" and one of them replied "I Know" and then we kept on drinking at 7am lol. I think she thinks that I was joking.

mrbojangles25

However, alcohol is no different from herione, crack, nicotine or any other substance with regards to propensity for addiction, the symptons/effects are just different.

Wha...?

It's a toxic substance. It does nothing but kill cells. People merely drink because it makes you feel great.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]I've got little sympathy; people may be genetically predisposed to alcoholism, but it is a consequence of their own lack of will power that one reaches the state of alcoholism.mrbojangles25

How is one supposed to exercise "will power" when they don't even REALIZE that they're becoming alcoholics? That's what addictions tend to do to people. This is especially true in a society which ENOURAGES drinking as the normal thing to do.

drinking has been the normal thing to do for millenia, and for good reason.

And as for addiction, people are very aware of their addictions, they just like it so damn much they dont fess up when confronted.

Addicts are liars, theyre not stupid...they know they have a problems.

If somebody knows they have a problem and doesn't do anything about it, enjoys it, even, then that's not what I'd classify as "Smart.". .

[QUOTE="ShadowJax04"]It can be both be a simple weakess and a serious mental addiction.. And it can end up being a disease by becoming a phsyical addiction. ie, your body is dependant on alcohol.Pirate700

If somebody knows they have a problem and doesn't do anything about it, enjoys it, even, then that's not what I'd classify as "Smart.". .

Theokhoth

If someone enjoys it, then they probably aren't going to even see it as a problem until it's a BIG problem.

I believe the addiction may be a disease, but the the choice to start drinking is just that, a choice.

Addiction.

..... There have been studies showing that people who have relatives who were alocholic, say a parent or grand parent.. Are more likely to become one.. Furthermore having a family history of depression or other disorders can lead to drug abuse/alocholism.. Saying that its only choice is disingenious, the point being it can be a multitude of reasons.sSubZerOo

It's not a disorder. You don't just one day start drinking uncontrollable. It's a choice. You start drinking, get mentally adicted to the feeling, and get hooked. I't is nothing more than a person's inability to control and moderate themselves.

If alcoholism is a disease then so is smoking.

Alcoholism is not a disease. Like any other drug with excesive use you can become addicted. Addiction not disease.

It's not a disorder. You don't just one day start drinking uncontrollable. It's a choice. You start drinking, get mentally adicted to the feeling, and get hooked. I't is nothing more than a person's inability to control and moderate themselves.

If alcoholism is a disease then so is smoking.

Wasdie

Disorders often develop. And being addicted to smoking is a disease.

Alcoholism is not a disease. Like any other drug with excesive use you can become addicted. Addiction not disease.

Dawq902

Addiction itself is a disease.

[QUOTE="Pirate700"]

[QUOTE="ShadowJax04"]It can be both be a simple weakess and a serious mental addiction.. And it can end up being a disease by becoming a phsyical addiction. ie, your body is dependant on alcohol.DivergeUnify

How can you're body become dependent on something that does absolutely nothing other than kill cells? :|

It's not a disorder. You don't just one day start drinking uncontrollable. It's a choice. You start drinking, get mentally adicted to the feeling, and get hooked. I't is nothing more than a person's inability to control and moderate themselves.

If alcoholism is a disease then so is smoking.Wasdie

There are twoproblems here with your statement:

(1) It is not primarily a mental addiction. It is a chemical/physical addiction. It is in fact one of the few chemical/physical addictions that can have withdrawal symptoms that prove fatal, which is why an individual who suffers from severe alcohol addiction is brought off gradually in rehab rather than a complete withdrawal. Complete withdrawals can be fatal for reasons related to the chemical/physical addiction.

(2) You present this as if there is a mutually exclusive dichotomy between the initial choices one makes to gain the addiction through a high risk behavior and the resulting condition. When something is classified as a disease, the idea that the disease is onset with initial choices is not something that is taken into account to classify the condition as a disease. It is the function of the condition that is used to classify this, as it should be. Physical and chemical addictions fit the definition of a disease in that regard especially since they relate to the function of specific organs which have become conditioned by the continual use of the addictive substance.

[QUOTE="ShadowJax04"]It can be both be a simple weakess and a serious mental addiction.. And it can end up being a disease by becoming a phsyical addiction. ie, your body is dependant on alcohol.Pirate700

[QUOTE="DivergeUnify"][QUOTE="Pirate700"]Your body cannot become dependant on alcohol. :lol:

MadVybz

How can you're body become dependent on something that does absolutely nothing other than kill cells? :|

So you're saying alcohol withdrawal doesn't exist? :|

It is a behavior, not a disease.

Disease, no question about it.

It is a behavior, not a disease.

Mordred19

[QUOTE="Dawq902"]

Alcoholism is not a disease. Like any other drug with excesive use you can become addicted. Addiction not disease.

Theokhoth

Addiction itself is a disease.

I wonder if anyone is actually going to read it.

[QUOTE="MadVybz"]

[QUOTE="DivergeUnify"] Um, yes it canTheokhoth

How can you're body become dependent on something that does absolutely nothing other than kill cells? :|

So you're saying alcohol withdrawal doesn't exist? :|

No, I was asking a question.

I've never heard about any cases of alcohol withdrawal, which is why I asked.

Not everyone counters someone's point with a rhetorical question you know. :P

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="MadVybz"]

How can you're body become dependent on something that does absolutely nothing other than kill cells? :|

MadVybz

So you're saying alcohol withdrawal doesn't exist? :|

No, I was asking a question.

I've never heard about any cases of alcohol withdrawal, which is why I asked.

Not everyone counters someone's point with a rhetorical question you know. :P

The ":|" implies rhetorical question.

Read and be informed: http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-sb01.html

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="Dawq902"]

Alcoholism is not a disease. Like any other drug with excesive use you can become addicted. Addiction not disease.

MrGeezer

Addiction itself is a disease.

I wonder if anyone is actually going to read it.

Judging by the current progression of this topic, doubtful. :P

Alcoholism was declared a disease over forty years ago.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Addiction itself is a disease.

Theokhoth

I wonder if anyone is actually going to read it.

Judging by the current progression of this topic, doubtful. :P

Alcoholism was declared a disease over forty years ago.

I read it

For me, the confusion stems from the absolute fact that some people are associating addiction immediately with being a disease, while others (myself) dont say it it.

what about the grey area? According to that article, addicts sacrfice most of the things (jobs, friends, family, etc) to get their fix.

What about the people that are "addicted" but still manage to function? We cant just say "Oh, thats not addiction, thats just a really bad habit".

So yea, I can see both sides of the argument now, sorry for being so resistant earlier. I think we just need to accept that there are varying degrees of addiction, with full on disease stage being near the worst part.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

I wonder if anyone is actually going to read it.

mrbojangles25

Judging by the current progression of this topic, doubtful. :P

Alcoholism was declared a disease over forty years ago.

I read it

For me, the confusion stems from the absolute fact that some people are associating addiction immediately with being a disease, while others (myself) dont say it it.

what about the grey area? According to that article, addicts sacrfice most of the things (jobs, friends, family, etc) to get their fix.

What about the people that are "addicted" but still manage to function? We cant just say "Oh, thats not addiction, thats just a really bad habit".

So yea, I can see both sides of the argument now, sorry for being so resistant earlier. I think we just need to accept that there are varying degrees of addiction, with full on disease stage being near the worst part.

[QUOTE="MadVybz"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

So you're saying alcohol withdrawal doesn't exist? :|

Theokhoth

No, I was asking a question.

I've never heard about any cases of alcohol withdrawal, which is why I asked.

Not everyone counters someone's point with a rhetorical question you know. :P

The ":|" implies rhetorical question.

Read and be informed: http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-sb01.html

Differences in interpretation I guess.

I read both articles, by the way. Forty years? Sheesh. I never got the memo. :lol:

I read it

For me, the confusion stems from the absolute fact that some people are associating addiction immediately with being a disease, while others (myself) dont say it it.

what about the grey area? According to that article, addicts sacrfice most of the things (jobs, friends, family, etc) to get their fix.

What about the people that are "addicted" but still manage to function? We cant just say "Oh, thats not addiction, thats just a really bad habit".

So yea, I can see both sides of the argument now, sorry for being so resistant earlier. I think we just need to accept that there are varying degrees of addiction, with full on disease stage being near the worst part.

mrbojangles25

I think of it like this. There are "addicts" who manage to balance their drug abuse with their lives in a relatively healthy way. They feel like they are in control, because they pretty much are. If their drug use starts to become a problem, they cut back on it, or work harder to incorporate it into their lives in a way that isn't clearly detrimental. They manage to avoid most of the negative consequences, and can say "nope, not drinking this weekend, I have a lot of homework to do." And that actually sort of works for them.

The thing is, the fact that that DOES seem to work for them reinforces in their minds that their drug use isn't a problem. That tells them that they ARE still in control. So they stop doing the drug long enough to fulfill their responsibiities, or they cut back for a little while in order to reduce the effect that the drug has on their lives, and it seems like everything's peachy.

But the problem is that they're STILL using the drug, under the idea that they are in control of the drug, not the other way around. They saw a problem and saw that the COULD cut back or stop when they wanted to, so the fact that they do have this kind of control over the drug (and stop when they need to) tells them that they CAN use the drug safely and responsibly.

But after continuing to use the drug beyond that, their brains actually change. Eventually, they very well may reach the point where they are literally not in the right state of mind. Their brains simply aren't working the same way, and they are not thinking right. More than that, by this time, even if they know they have a problem, they have an uncontrollable compulsion to do what they've only now just realized is dangerous. Their brains have changed to the point that now it's EXTREMELY hard to quit. Before it was them saying "yeah, I'll drink another beer, because getting drunk is fun and I think I want to get just slightly drunker." But that kind of transforms into their brains saying "GET ME SOME BOOZE NOW OR I'LL MAKE YOU HURT!!"

It's just like your whole thing about smoking, and how you got addicted. Same thing happened to me. You start out as a light smoker. You gradually smoke more and more, until you find yourself smoking too much. At some point, you think "wow, I need to stop smoking so much." YOU ended up quitting. But a LOT of people simply cut down on smoking. Cutting down on smoking was easy, so they think they're all in control. So they keep on smoking. Gradually, this smoking causes the brain to change to the extent that this person suddenly finds themselves physiologically addicted to an extent that they never anticipated. For many people, this is not something that they see coming. Sure, many addicts at some point realize that they're drinking too much. But if they manage to stop or cut down without any adverse or painful effects, this just reinforces in their minds that addiction IS simply a matter of not being an idiot who drinks too much.

The irony here is that this thread has been filled with people saying "I have no sympathy for alcoholics. I can control my drinking." The irony is that that EXACT same attitude is what actually heavily contributes to many addicts using drugs to the point of severe addiction. This attitude can in many cases CONTRIBUTE to someone becoming addicted.

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

I read it

For me, the confusion stems from the absolute fact that some people are associating addiction immediately with being a disease, while others (myself) dont say it it.

what about the grey area? According to that article, addicts sacrfice most of the things (jobs, friends, family, etc) to get their fix.

What about the people that are "addicted" but still manage to function? We cant just say "Oh, thats not addiction, thats just a really bad habit".

So yea, I can see both sides of the argument now, sorry for being so resistant earlier. I think we just need to accept that there are varying degrees of addiction, with full on disease stage being near the worst part.

MrGeezer

I think of it like this. There are "addicts" who manage to balance their drug abuse with their lives in a relatively healthy way. They feel like they are in control, because they pretty much are. If their drug use starts to become a problem, they cut back on it, or work harder to incorporate it into their lives in a way that isn't clearly detrimental. They manage to avoid most of the negative consequences, and can say "nope, not drinking this weekend, I have a lot of homework to do." And that actually sort of works for them.

The thing is, the fact that that DOES seem to work for them reinforces in their minds that their drug use isn't a problem. That tells them that they ARE still in control. So they stop doing the drug long enough to fulfill their responsibiities, or they cut back for a little while in order to reduce the effect that the drug has on their lives, and it seems like everything's peachy.

But the problem is that they're STILL using the drug, under the idea that they are in control of the drug, not the other way around. They saw a problem and saw that the COULD cut back or stop when they wanted to, so the fact that they do have this kind of control over the drug (and stop when they need to) tells them that they CAN use the drug safely and responsibly.

But after continuing to use the drug beyond that, their brains actually change. Eventually, they very well may reach the point where they are literally not in the right state of mind. Their brains simply aren't working the same way, and they are not thinking right. More than that, by this time, even if they know they have a problem, they have an uncontrollable compulsion to do what they've only now just realized is dangerous. Their brains have changed to the point that now it's EXTREMELY hard to quit. Before it was them saying "yeah, I'll drink another beer, because getting drunk is fun and I think I want to get just slightly drunker." But that kind of transforms into their brains saying "GET ME SOME BOOZE NOW OR I'LL MAKE YOU HURT!!"

It's just like your whole thing about smoking, and how you got addicted. Same thing happened to me. You start out as a light smoker. You gradually smoke more and more, until you find yourself smoking too much. At some point, you think "wow, I need to stop smoking so much." YOU ended up quitting. But a LOT of people simply cut down on smoking. Cutting down on smoking was easy, so they think they're all in control. So they keep on smoking. Gradually, this smoking causes the brain to change to the extent that this person suddenly finds themselves physiologically addicted to an extent that they never anticipated. For many people, this is not something that they see coming. Sure, many addicts at some point realize that they're drinking too much. But if they manage to stop or cut down without any adverse or painful effects, this just reinforces in their minds that addiction IS simply a matter of not being an idiot who drinks too much.

The irony here is that this thread has been filled with people saying "I have no sympathy for alcoholics. I can control my drinking." The irony is that that EXACT same attitude is what actually heavily contributes to many addicts using drugs to the point of severe addiction. This attitude can in many cases CONTRIBUTE to someone becoming addicted.