a scientific proof that GOD existes ... ( long read )...

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Ingenemployee

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#101 Ingenemployee
Member since 2007 • 2307 Posts

[QUOTE="hydratedleaf"][QUOTE="gaming25"]

Then tell me how am I wrong.

gaming25

A theory can be entirely a fact.

"Can be". Sure it can. But what I am saying to you is that it isnt a "law" for a reason. And yes, I am using the right term when I say that.

Taken from wikipedia> A common misconception is that scientific theories are rudimentary ideas that will eventually graduate into scientific laws when enough data and evidence has been accumulated. A theory does not change into a scientific law with the accumulation of new or better evidence. A theory will always remain a theory, a law will always remain a law.

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hydratedleaf

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#102 hydratedleaf
Member since 2010 • 159 Posts
[QUOTE="gaming25"] "Can be". Sure it can. But what I am saying to you is that it isnt a "law" for a reason. And yes, I am using the right term when I say that.

And what you are saying is wrong. It isn't a law because it doesn't express a fundamental relation between two or more things. That's the reason. Factuality has nothing to do with it.
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SgtKevali

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#103 SgtKevali
Member since 2009 • 5763 Posts

[QUOTE="hydratedleaf"][QUOTE="gaming25"]

Then tell me how am I wrong.

gaming25

A theory can be entirely a fact.

"Can be". Sure it can. But what I am saying to you is that it isnt a "law" for a reason. And yes, I am using the right term when I say that.

A theory cannot become a law. "Theory" and "law" deal with different types of things.

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theone86

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#104 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

[QUOTE="gubrushadow"]Perhaps the biggest reason that so many theories within the overall theory of evolution collapse is because they contain terrible logic requiring great leaps in faith to believe. Here is one example of a "debunked" theory: "Many evolutionists have tried to argue that humans are 99% similar chemically to apes and blood precipitation tests do indicate that the chimpanzee is people's closest relative. Yet regarding this we must observe the following: 'Milk chemistry indicates that the donkey is man's closest relative.' 'Cholesterol level tests indicate that the garter snake is man's closest relative.' 'Tear enzyme chemistry indicates that the chicken is man's closest relative.' 'On the basis of another type of blood chemistry test, the butter bean is man's closest relative'" (Morris, Henry M., The Twilight of Evolution, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1967).Oleg_Huzwog

Is it me or is this "debunking" actually further supporting the concept of common ancestry across species?

It's you and your insufferable logic, don't you know that logic is explicitly forbidden in the Bible? It's the REAL first commandment, thou shalt not think for thineself, only it wasn't written, it was just implied...only the Israelites weren't supposed to think for themselves so they really couldn't figure out the implication.

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gaming25

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#105 gaming25
Member since 2010 • 6181 Posts
[QUOTE="metroidfood"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"][QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

You most certainly don't have the correct term. As I said before, the theory of evolution can't go any "higher" than that - a THEORY.

Doesnt matter, because it still doesnt mean that in its entirety its a "fact".

No, it is a collection of facts.

The reason that it is a Theory is the reason that every collection of facts explaining a phenomenon is a Theory in science: because science is inherently self-correcting the option to adjust and revise previous knowledge means that anything that cannot be expressed a mathematical law is left open for further research.

Scientific theories are facts that explain a specific phenomenon that have withstood extensive research and peer review. Saying that it's not a "fact" is semantically correct, but you're ignoring the concept that a Theory in science is basically equivalent to a fact and the only reason it isn't called one is the reality that not even science is %100 perfect every time.

You said that its a FACT, yet it could not be 100%??? So yes, I am being "semantically" correct when I say that the theory of evolution is not a fact. This is true. All I am doing is taking it in a context for what it actually is.
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mattbbpl

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#106 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23048 Posts
[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]The first argument essentially states, from what I gather, that the matter in the universe could not have existed forever because matter with an infinite existence could not have any radioactive elements (since they have a half-life). This seems to make sense to me, since they would have all decayed into other elements given an infinite lifespan. Why, then, is this immediately disregarded?hydratedleaf
Because no one claims that matter has existed forever anyway.

I've seen some claim to, but that's besides the point. Given that, from whence does the matter come, and which theory do those that are dismissing it believe is true?

I'm not asking to argue, I'm asking to understand. While I consider myself educated, I'm neither a physicist nor a theologian.
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T_P_O

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#107 T_P_O
Member since 2008 • 5388 Posts

Most posters have said the things I've wanted to say (drat, lateness ;_; ) and if theone86's magnificent post goes totally ignored in this thread, I will ragequit OT.

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metroidfood

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#108 metroidfood
Member since 2007 • 11175 Posts

You said that its a FACT, yet it could not be 100%??? So yes, I am being "semantically" correct when I say that the theory of evolution is not a fact. This is true. All I am doing is taking it in a context for what it actually is.gaming25

Again, you're using semantics to downplay the validity of a Scientific Theory.

In science, nothing except mathematics is ever 100%. In context, a Scientific Theory is equally as valid as a fact.

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gaming25

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#109 gaming25
Member since 2010 • 6181 Posts
[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Oleg_Huzwog"]

Perhaps the biggest reason that so many theories within the overall theory of evolution collapse is because they contain terrible logic requiring great leaps in faith to believe. Here is one example of a "debunked" theory: "Many evolutionists have tried to argue that humans are 99% similar chemically to apes and blood precipitation tests do indicate that the chimpanzee is people's closest relative. Yet regarding this we must observe the following: 'Milk chemistry indicates that the donkey is man's closest relative.' 'Cholesterol level tests indicate that the garter snake is man's closest relative.' 'Tear enzyme chemistry indicates that the chicken is man's closest relative.' 'On the basis of another type of blood chemistry test, the butter bean is man's closest relative'" (Morris, Henry M., The Twilight of Evolution, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1967).gubrushadow

Is it me or is this "debunking" actually further supporting the concept of common ancestry across species?

It's you and your insufferable logic, don't you know that logic is explicitly forbidden in the Bible? It's the REAL first commandment, thou shalt not think for thineself, only it wasn't written, it was just implied...only the Israelites weren't supposed to think for themselves so they really couldn't figure out the implication.

You dont see how disrespectful that is? You made fun of someone's RELIGION and faith. Not only his, but mine as well. And then you made some cheap joke about the first commandment. I did not make his comment, yet you DID make your post about me when you disrespected my religion like that. All I am asking of you all is to not do that.
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metroidfood

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#110 metroidfood
Member since 2007 • 11175 Posts

Most posters have said the things I've wanted to say (drat, lateness ;_; ) and if theone86's magnificent post goes totally ignored in this thread, I will ragequit OT.

T_P_O

Given that creationists are still using the same tired, debunked arguments they have for years (2nd law incompatability, it's just a theory) I'm not surprised that an argument which points out the scientific inaccuracy and logical fallacies of the original argument goes ignored.

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BumFluff122

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#111 BumFluff122
Member since 2004 • 14853 Posts

There is no scientific proof that God exists and there never will be. This is because God, as it is portrayed, is beyond reality. Science deals with the study of reality. Science can not prove God exists because God is not part of our reality.

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gaming25

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#112 gaming25
Member since 2010 • 6181 Posts

[QUOTE="gaming25"] You said that its a FACT, yet it could not be 100%??? So yes, I am being "semantically" correct when I say that the theory of evolution is not a fact. This is true. All I am doing is taking it in a context for what it actually is.metroidfood

Again, you're using semantics to downplay the validity of a Scientific Theory.

In science, nothing except mathematics is ever 100%. In context, a Scientific Theory is equally as valid as a fact.

No it isnt. You cant use science to prove your point but yet find an appeasing way to validate your ideals. It is not a FACT.
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hydratedleaf

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#113 hydratedleaf
Member since 2010 • 159 Posts
[QUOTE="hydratedleaf"][QUOTE="mattbbpl"]The first argument essentially states, from what I gather, that the matter in the universe could not have existed forever because matter with an infinite existence could not have any radioactive elements (since they have a half-life). This seems to make sense to me, since they would have all decayed into other elements given an infinite lifespan. Why, then, is this immediately disregarded?mattbbpl
Because no one claims that matter has existed forever anyway.

I've seen some claim to, but that's besides the point. Given that, from whence does the matter come, and which theory do those that are dismissing it believe is true?

I'm not asking to argue, I'm asking to understand. While I consider myself educated, I'm neither a physicist nor a theologian.

To be honest this explains it much better than I could: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=631 Apologies for passing the buck u_u as for where it all came from before that - that's outside the realm of physics and into philosophy.
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laughingman42

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#114 laughingman42
Member since 2007 • 8730 Posts

[ You said that its a FACT, yet it could not be 100%??? So yes, I am being "semantically" correct when I say that the theory of evolution is not a fact. This is true. All I am doing is taking it in a context for what it actually is.gaming25

It's a collection of facts that can be expanded upon with more facts. That doesn't mean that what is already in the theory is not fact.

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hydratedleaf

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#115 hydratedleaf
Member since 2010 • 159 Posts
[QUOTE="gaming25"][QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Oleg_Huzwog"]

Is it me or is this "debunking" actually further supporting the concept of common ancestry across species?

It's you and your insufferable logic, don't you know that logic is explicitly forbidden in the Bible? It's the REAL first commandment, thou shalt not think for thineself, only it wasn't written, it was just implied...only the Israelites weren't supposed to think for themselves so they really couldn't figure out the implication.

You dont see how disrespectful that is? You made fun of someone's RELIGION and faith. Not only his, but mine as well. And then you made some cheap joke about the first commandment. I did not make his comment, yet you DID make your post about me when you disrespected my religion like that. All I am asking of you all is to not do that.

So what? You have no right not to be offended. Deal with it. Alternatively, don't post here. Either way, it's not his job to conform to your sensibilities.
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gaming25

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#116 gaming25
Member since 2010 • 6181 Posts

[QUOTE="gaming25"][ You said that its a FACT, yet it could not be 100%??? So yes, I am being "semantically" correct when I say that the theory of evolution is not a fact. This is true. All I am doing is taking it in a context for what it actually is.laughingman42

It's a collection of facts that can be expanded upon with more facts. That doesn't mean that what is already in the theory is not fact.

We keep going over this over and over again, I never said that theories cannot be facts. But based on science (which is your basis for this argument) it still cant be proven 100%.
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theone86

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#117 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Oleg_Huzwog"]

Is it me or is this "debunking" actually further supporting the concept of common ancestry across species?

gaming25

It's you and your insufferable logic, don't you know that logic is explicitly forbidden in the Bible? It's the REAL first commandment, thou shalt not think for thineself, only it wasn't written, it was just implied...only the Israelites weren't supposed to think for themselves so they really couldn't figure out the implication.

You dont see how disrespectful that is? You made fun of someone's RELIGION and faith. Not only his, but mine as well. And then you made some cheap joke about the first commandment. I did not make his comment, yet you DID make your post about me when you disrespected my religion like that. All I am asking of you all is to not do that.

I have a friend I'd like you to meet, her name is sarcasm.

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gaming25

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#118 gaming25
Member since 2010 • 6181 Posts

[QUOTE="gaming25"][QUOTE="theone86"]

It's you and your insufferable logic, don't you know that logic is explicitly forbidden in the Bible? It's the REAL first commandment, thou shalt not think for thineself, only it wasn't written, it was just implied...only the Israelites weren't supposed to think for themselves so they really couldn't figure out the implication.

hydratedleaf

You dont see how disrespectful that is? You made fun of someone's RELIGION and faith. Not only his, but mine as well. And then you made some cheap joke about the first commandment. I did not make his comment, yet you DID make your post about me when you disrespected my religion like that. All I am asking of you all is to not do that.

So what? You have no right not to be offended. Deal with it. Alternatively, don't post here. Either way, it's not his job to conform to your sensibilities.

"You have no right to be ofended". Excuse me, but my love for God is immense, and you know that when you immensly love someone, you dont want it to be disrespected. So all I am asking is that he doesnt disrespect the God and The Bible that I love.

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hydratedleaf

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#119 hydratedleaf
Member since 2010 • 159 Posts
[QUOTE="laughingman42"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"][ You said that its a FACT, yet it could not be 100%??? So yes, I am being "semantically" correct when I say that the theory of evolution is not a fact. This is true. All I am doing is taking it in a context for what it actually is.gaming25

It's a collection of facts that can be expanded upon with more facts. That doesn't mean that what is already in the theory is not fact.

We keep going over this over and over again, I never said that theories cannot be facts. But based on science (which is your basis for this argument) it still cant be proven 100%.

Neither can anything else in the physical world, but I'm sure you'd agree that you'd have to be bloody stupid to deny, for example, cell theory.
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theone86

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#120 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

[QUOTE="laughingman42"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"][ You said that its a FACT, yet it could not be 100%??? So yes, I am being "semantically" correct when I say that the theory of evolution is not a fact. This is true. All I am doing is taking it in a context for what it actually is.gaming25

It's a collection of facts that can be expanded upon with more facts. That doesn't mean that what is already in the theory is not fact.

We keep going over this over and over again, I never said that theories cannot be facts. But based on science (which is your basis for this argument) it still cant be proven 100%.

But it can be proven to a certain extent, which is more than you can say about god.

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hydratedleaf

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#121 hydratedleaf
Member since 2010 • 159 Posts

[QUOTE="hydratedleaf"][QUOTE="gaming25"] You dont see how disrespectful that is? You made fun of someone's RELIGION and faith. Not only his, but mine as well. And then you made some cheap joke about the first commandment. I did not make his comment, yet you DID make your post about me when you disrespected my religion like that. All I am asking of you all is to not do that.gaming25

So what? You have no right not to be offended. Deal with it. Alternatively, don't post here. Either way, it's not his job to conform to your sensibilities.

"You have no right to be ofended". Excuse me, but my love for God is immense, and you know that when you immensly love someone, you dont want it to be disrespected. So all I am asking is that he doesnt disrespect the God and The Bible that I love.

I'm sure your love for God is positively Herculean, but it's evidently dwarfed by your sense of righteous indignation. He can disrespect the fairlytale with which you are so enamoured all he wants. Perhaps you shouldn't be posting here if you're likely to be offended by what you read.
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laughingman42

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#122 laughingman42
Member since 2007 • 8730 Posts

[QUOTE="laughingman42"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"][ You said that its a FACT, yet it could not be 100%??? So yes, I am being "semantically" correct when I say that the theory of evolution is not a fact. This is true. All I am doing is taking it in a context for what it actually is.gaming25

It's a collection of facts that can be expanded upon with more facts. That doesn't mean that what is already in the theory is not fact.

We keep going over this over and over again, I never said that theories cannot be facts. But based on science (which is your basis for this argument) it still cant be proven 100%.

You still do not understand what a scientific theory is. It's and EXPLANATION, and said explanation is based on facts and facts alone. What is in the theory now in fact has been proven (repeatedly) with empirical evidence. The theory of evolution is correct, to deny that is sheer ignorance, but it just is not complete. (There will always be more tests to be run, such is the nature of science)

I think you are trying to compare a theory to a law (which is fact not explanation) and that is a false dichotomy.

lol I misspelled ignorance.

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coolbeans90

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#123 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

Even if one were to assume that all of those points in the OP were scientifically well developed and true, (which the OP does not give a compelling empirical case for, in fact it was loaded with problems) that still wouldn't prove the existence of God.

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bloodling

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#124 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

"You have no right to be ofended". Excuse me, but my love for God is immense, and you know that when you immensly love someone, you dont want it to be disrespected. So all I am asking is that he doesnt disrespect the God and The Bible that I love.

gaming25

It's not possible to disrespect something that does not exist. Talking in the air about semantics is leading nowhere.

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BumFluff122

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#125 BumFluff122
Member since 2004 • 14853 Posts

[QUOTE="laughingman42"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"][ You said that its a FACT, yet it could not be 100%??? So yes, I am being "semantically" correct when I say that the theory of evolution is not a fact. This is true. All I am doing is taking it in a context for what it actually is.gaming25

It's a collection of facts that can be expanded upon with more facts. That doesn't mean that what is already in the theory is not fact.

We keep going over this over and over again, I never said that theories cannot be facts. But based on science (which is your basis for this argument) it still cant be proven 100%.

Nothing is proven 100% in science. For all we know gravity could completely fail in the universe and things could go up rather than down. However, science deals with observances and probable explanations. Those probable explanations haven't failed. As long as those probable explanations do not fail it can be regarded as a scientific theory. If they do fail that scientific theory is either updated with the new data or thrown out completely. As we do know that cells and DNA mutates and what effects specific mutations have on the human body we know this can occur. We also know that specific types of animals live better in certain environments thn other animals. We are unravelling the actual genetic code that makes up many different creatures and we can actually see the changes that took place as we go further back in time.

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UnamedThing

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#126 UnamedThing
Member since 2008 • 1761 Posts
[QUOTE="hydratedleaf"][QUOTE="gaming25"] But yet you took the time out and comment.... Please, I am not 5 years old. And you "i'm afraid"you missed the point that I was trying to make. This poster, who has feelings and is every bit as smart as you, gave his opinion, and you laughed at him. You did not add to the discussion, yet you wanted everybody to see how "laughable" you thought his post was. "Frankly" you need to respect everyone's opinion especially if they never personally said anything about you.gaming25
No I don't. I'm not obliged to respect anyone's opinion, and I'm especially not obliged to respect someone's opinion when it amounts to flagrant, casuist abuses of scientific knowledge.

I asked you to do something very simple, which is decent respect, its as simple as that. Doesnt matter if he was wrong or right, you talk to someone, you talk to them with respect.

Having respect for someone must be earned.
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NarutoFever1

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#127 NarutoFever1
Member since 2008 • 19322 Posts

The thing I don't understand is how do people explain where God came from?

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gaming25

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#128 gaming25
Member since 2010 • 6181 Posts
[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"][QUOTE="theone86"]

It's you and your insufferable logic, don't you know that logic is explicitly forbidden in the Bible? It's the REAL first commandment, thou shalt not think for thineself, only it wasn't written, it was just implied...only the Israelites weren't supposed to think for themselves so they really couldn't figure out the implication.

You dont see how disrespectful that is? You made fun of someone's RELIGION and faith. Not only his, but mine as well. And then you made some cheap joke about the first commandment. I did not make his comment, yet you DID make your post about me when you disrespected my religion like that. All I am asking of you all is to not do that.

I have a friend I'd like you to meet, her name is sarcasm.

It was something more than that. "thou shalt not think for thineself, only it wasn't written it was just implied" shows that. Either that, or your the way you use sarcasm is strange.
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gaming25

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#129 gaming25
Member since 2010 • 6181 Posts
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"][QUOTE="laughingman42"]

It's a collection of facts that can be expanded upon with more facts. That doesn't mean that what is already in the theory is not fact.

We keep going over this over and over again, I never said that theories cannot be facts. But based on science (which is your basis for this argument) it still cant be proven 100%.

Nothing is proven 100% in science. For all we know gravity could completely fail in the universe and things could go up rather than down. However, science deals with observances and probable explanations. Those probable explanations haven't failed. As long as those probable explanations do not fail it can be regarded as a scientific theory. If they do fail that scientific theory is either updated with the new data or thrown out completely. As we do know that cells and DNA mutates and what effects specific mutations have on the human body we know this can occur. We also know that specific types of animals live better in certain environments thn other animals. We are unravelling the actual genetic code that makes up many different creatures and we can actually see the changes that took place as we go further back in time.

I am not disagreeing with what science is about. I think that we are getting off track because this debate started with someone trying to tell me that my stance on the theory of evolution was incorrect.
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mattbbpl

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#130 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23048 Posts

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="hydratedleaf"]Because no one claims that matter has existed forever anyway.hydratedleaf
I've seen some claim to, but that's besides the point. Given that, from whence does the matter come, and which theory do those that are dismissing it believe is true?

I'm not asking to argue, I'm asking to understand. While I consider myself educated, I'm neither a physicist nor a theologian.

To be honest this explains it much better than I could: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=631 Apologies for passing the buck u_u as for where it all came from before that - that's outside the realm of physics and into philosophy.

Yeah, I read something similar when I was research bozons due to the LHC issues in the news. That's essentially the singleton model. I guess I'm curious about the "deeper" cause (in the realm of philosophy, as you put it). I mean, under the singleton model alone, it doesn't really state where the energy/mass of the originating singleton came from - which means I'm still curious, I guess :)

Thanks for the response, BTW. The origins of the universe really is a pretty fascinating subject even if it is highly theoretical.

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coolbeans90

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#131 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="gubrushadow"]

The First Law of Thermodynamics

What is the truth of modern science regarding the origin of all matter in the universe? Do scientists tell us that it has always existed? Or have they determined that there was a moment in time in which all matter came into existence? The answer to the second question is, yes! But what is the proof that this is true?

The First Law of Thermodynamics is stated as follows: Matter and energy can be neither created nor destroyed. There are no natural processes that can alter either matter or energy in this way. This means that there is no new matter or energy coming into existence and there is no new matter or energy passing out of existence. All who state that the universe came into existence from nothing violate the first law of thermodynamics, which was established by the very scientific community who now seem willing to ignore it. In summary, this law plainly demonstrates that the universe, and all matter and energy within it, must have had a divine origin—a specific moment in which it was created by someone who was all-powerful.

With the coming of the Atomic Age, beginning with the discovery of radium in 1898 by Madame Curie, came the knowledge that all radioactive elements continually give off radiation. Consider! Uranium has an atomic weight of 238.0. As it decomposes, it releases a helium atom three times. Each helium atom has a weight of 4. With the new weight of 226.0, uranium becomes radium. Radium continues to give off additional atoms until eventually the end product becomes the heavy inert element called lead. This takes a tremendous amount of time. While the process of uranium turning into radium is very long, the radium turns into lead in 1,590 years.

What are we saying? There was a point in time when the uranium could not have existed, because it always breaks down in a highly systematic, controlled way. It is not stable like lead or other elements. It breaks down. This means there was a specific moment in time when all radioactive elements came into existence. Remember, all of them—uranium, radium, thorium, radon, polonium, francium, protactinium and others—have not existed forever. This represents absolute proof that matter came into existence or, in other words, matter has not always existed!

This flies directly in the face of evolutionary thought—that everything gradually evolved into something else. Here is the problem. You cannot have something slowly come into existence from nothing! Matter could not have come into existence by itself. No rational person could believe that the entire universe—including all of the radioactive elements that prove there was a specific time of beginning—gradually came into existence BY ITSELF!

Through your own efforts, try to build something—anything—from nothing. Even with your creative power engaged in the effort, you would never be able to do it. You will not be able—in a hundred lifetimes of trying—to produce a single thing from nothing! Then, can any doubter believe that everything in the entirety of the universe, in all of its exquisite detail, came into existence completely by itself? Be honest. Accept facts. This is proof that the existing natural realm demands the existence of a Great Creator!
The Second Law of Thermodynamics

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is best summarized by saying that everything moves toward disorder—or a condition known as entropy. This bears some explanation and we will consider several examples.

Remember that evolutionists teach that everything is constantly evolving into a higher and more complex order. In other words, they believe things continue to get better and better instead of worse and worse.

If water being heated on a stove is at 150 degrees Fahrenheit, and the burner is turned off, the temperature will drop instead of rise. It will move toward colder rather than hotter. If a ball is placed on a hill, it will always roll downhill and not uphill. Energy used to perform any particular task changes from usable energy to unusable in the performing of that task. It will always go from a higher energy level to a lower energy level—where less and less energy is available for use.

When applied to the universe, the second law of thermodynamics indicates that the universe is winding down—moving toward disorder or entropy—not winding up or moving toward more perfect order and structure. In short, the entire universe is winding down!

Even evolutionists admit that the theory of evolution and the second law of thermodynamics are completely incompatible with each other. Consider: "Regarding the second law of thermodynamics (universally accepted scientific law which states that all things left to themselves will tend to run down) or the law of entropy, it is observed, 'It would hardly be possible to conceive of two more completely opposite principles than this principle of entropy increase and the principle of evolution. Each is precisely the converse of the other. As (Aldous) Huxley defined it, evolution involves a continual increase of order, of organization, of size, of complexity. It seems axiomatic that both cannot possibly be true. But there is no question whatever that the second law of thermodynamics is true'" (Morris, Henry M., The Twilight of Evolution, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1967, p. 35).

Like a top or a yo-yo, the universe must have been "wound up." Since the universe is constantly winding down, the second law of thermodynamics looms before us in the form of a great question: Who wound it up? The only plausible answer is God!

EVOLUTION

The theory of evolution is shot full of inconsistencies. Evolutionists have seized on many theories, within the overall theory of evolution, in an attempt to explain the origins of plants, animals, the heavens and the earth.

Over and over, these "theorists" try to explain how life evolved from inanimate material into more complex life forms until it reached the pinnacle—human beings.

Yet, as one geologist wrote, "It must be significant that nearly all the evolutionary stories I learned as student…have been debunked" (Dr. Derek V. Ager, Dept. of Geology, Imperial College, London, The Nature of the Fossil Record, Proceedings of the Geological Assoc., Vol. 87, 1976, pp. 1132-1133).

Perhaps the biggest reason that so many theories within the overall theory of evolution collapse is because they contain terrible logic requiring great leaps in faith to believe. Here is one example of a "debunked" theory: "Many evolutionists have tried to argue that humans are 99% similar chemically to apes and blood precipitation tests do indicate that the chimpanzee is people's closest relative. Yet regarding this we must observe the following: 'Milk chemistry indicates that the donkey is man's closest relative.' 'Cholesterol level tests indicate that the garter snake is man's closest relative.' 'Tear enzyme chemistry indicates that the chicken is man's closest relative.' 'On the basis of another type of blood chemistry test, the butter bean is man's closest relative'" (Morris, Henry M., The Twilight of Evolution, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1967).

oh no its too long , well have fun :P

theone86

Sweet zombie Jesus, another one of these. First off, can we get one thing straight about theories and never have to talk about it again? Seriously, we need to like imprint this on like every kids' brain coming out of grade school and take every idiot who tries to tell anyone otherwise, stick them in an unmarked crate, and ship them off to a government warehouse, because they are just wrong. This is how the scientific method works, you begin by OBSERVATION. You observe the physical world and take note of natural phenomena (e.g. the fact that white squirrels survive in snowy environments and dark squirrels survive in more polluted environments). From those observations you develop a hypothesis, such as the squirrels are white because god doesn't like his creations to clash, or because they adapted to their environment through selective breeding facilitated by the death of the squirrels who didn't blend in i.e. natural selection. When you criticize evolution as being just a theory you are not referring to a theory, you are referring to a hypothesis, a general conclusion based on minimal observation and lacking support. A theory is formulated after extensive testing and observation of actual phenomena and requires the hypothesis to be verified in order to be considered a theory, therefore a theory is not a theory in the way you imply, but really a hypothesis that has been extensively tested and proven to hold true to real world phenomena, such as the observable and empirically verifiable phenomenom of natural selection. Furthermore, theories are not mutually exclusive and can be used in conjuction with one another to better understand natural phenomena. Having multiple thories relating to one phenomenom does not invalidate them, if anything it makes them stronger. I will go back to the theory of evolution, we can observe scientifically that natural selection is a very real phenomena, we can observe that all fomrs of life adapt to their natural environment, and we can observe that these physiological changes take extended periods fo time to manifest themselves and even longer to become the norm for a species. From these observations we can scientifically conclude that all the species on this planet have evolved over extended periods of time. From other observations of speci DNA, similarity of certain physiological structures, and unearthed bones of common ancestors we can determine that the multitude of species living on this planet came from a relatively small group of ancestors, going back far enough. All this and other pertinent science suppor the theory that life evolved from primordial organisms into the forms of life we know today. Do we know this for sure? No, but all evidence and logic supports it. We may not be able to explain all the specifics, but that doesn't invalidate the theory, that's not how science works. If science can't explain something it doesn't look for a deus ex machina to solve all of its inconsistencies, it searches for solid answer based on more observations, more research, and more facts.

Going on this thought, the laws of thermodynamics apply to the observable world, what we can see and test with our eyes and equipment. Just because it is a scientific law within this realm does not necessarily mean it applies within all realms of existence. Scientists are now becoming aware of a phenomenom which is currently all but immeasurable called dark matter. We know absolutely nothing about this dark matter, we only know of its existence through the failure of measurable matter in this universe to explain the total mass of the universe. There is no way to say that what we can observe as a species is indicative of how the rest of the universe works. We know only of a minute portion of the entire galaxy, much less the universe. Just because we can observe something in our small little corner does not make it universally true.

Furthermore, no one says the universe came from nothing (except for creationists, of course). What adherents to the big bang believe is that it is responsible for the formation of our universe as we know it. It speaks only to formation, not to the origin of matter or energy. Again, science deals only with what we can explain, if there is something currently beyond our capacity to explain it does not mean that god did it, it simply means we are not YET capable of explaining it.

As to the second law, the universe does not know perfect. It is not as if someone was at a used car lot looking at a car in decent condition and a beater and decided to go with the first car, the universe does not work like that. The universe just acts, it's nothing but pure causation. The laws that "govern" the universe, as we like to say, really just describe the observable aspects of the universe, it's not like we make these laws and then the universe is obliged to obey them, quite the opposite, the universe acts as it does and we alter our perception of it as we come to better understand it.

The second law does not have anything to do with evolution, organisms are not compelled to move to a less perfect state from our perception. Rather, organisms simply adapt to their environment through no fault of their own. Where the second law does apply in the biotic sphere is in death and decay. Living organisms use more and more energy as time goes on and begin to decay. They eventually cease facilitation of chemical exchange processes and become abiotic material. This is where the second law is applicable, not in evolution. Evolution is, like the second law, a way to describe an observed natural phenomenon. The second law was written to explain thermodynamics, not breeding patterns over an extended period of time.

Textbook quality pwnage.

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theone86

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#132 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

[QUOTE="gaming25"][QUOTE="hydratedleaf"]No I don't. I'm not obliged to respect anyone's opinion, and I'm especially not obliged to respect someone's opinion when it amounts to flagrant, casuist abuses of scientific knowledge.UnamedThing
I asked you to do something very simple, which is decent respect, its as simple as that. Doesnt matter if he was wrong or right, you talk to someone, you talk to them with respect.

Having respect for someone must be earned.

Whatever, I'm all for respecting someone's personal beliefs, but it was a joke and a sarcastic non-sequiter at that. The point wasn't taking a shot at religion, the point was taking a shot at moronic creationists who act as if they speak for all of religion, and then to top it off with a delightful twist.

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BumFluff122

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#133 BumFluff122
Member since 2004 • 14853 Posts

I am not disagreeing with what science is about. I think that we are getting off track because this debate started with someone trying to tell me that my stance on the theory of evolution was incorrect.gaming25
My point being that your stance is incorrect as we have an incredible amount of evidence pointing toward evolution actually occurring, that we the great apes all evolved from a common ancestor, that creatures genetically adapt to their environment, that we are very close in genetic coding with the chimps, etc...

See the human genome project and the chimp genome project to view how close our genetic codes are as they have both been unravelled.

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laughingman42

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#134 laughingman42
Member since 2007 • 8730 Posts

[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"] We keep going over this over and over again, I never said that theories cannot be facts. But based on science (which is your basis for this argument) it still cant be proven 100%.gaming25

Nothing is proven 100% in science. For all we know gravity could completely fail in the universe and things could go up rather than down. However, science deals with observances and probable explanations. Those probable explanations haven't failed. As long as those probable explanations do not fail it can be regarded as a scientific theory. If they do fail that scientific theory is either updated with the new data or thrown out completely. As we do know that cells and DNA mutates and what effects specific mutations have on the human body we know this can occur. We also know that specific types of animals live better in certain environments thn other animals. We are unravelling the actual genetic code that makes up many different creatures and we can actually see the changes that took place as we go further back in time.

I am not disagreeing with what science is about. I think that we are getting off track because this debate started with someone trying to tell me that my stance on the theory of evolution was incorrect.

Your stance is incorrect because you don't undrstand what a theory is. Read my previous post.

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gaming25

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#135 gaming25
Member since 2010 • 6181 Posts

[QUOTE="gaming25"] I am not disagreeing with what science is about. I think that we are getting off track because this debate started with someone trying to tell me that my stance on the theory of evolution was incorrect.BumFluff122

My point being that your stance is incorrect as we have an incredible amount of evidence pointing toward evolution actually occurring, that we the great apes all evolved from a common ancestor, that creatures genetically adapt to their environment, that we are very close in genetic coding with the chimps, etc...

See the human genome project and the chimp genome project to view how close our genetic codes are as they have both been unravelled.

I never told you my stance on the theory of evolution. I only have said my stance for what it is, which is that it isnt scientifically speaking a fact.
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BumFluff122

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#136 BumFluff122
Member since 2004 • 14853 Posts

I never told you my stance on the theory of evolution. I only have said my stance for what it is, which is that it isnt scientifically speaking a fact.gaming25
Nothing in science can be considered a 'fact'. Gravoty can not be considered a 'fact'. However this state absolutely nothing about evolution, I agree. Evolution, however, is probably as close to a fact as you can get in science.

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bloodling

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#137 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

I never told you my stance on the theory of evolution. I only have said my stance for what it is, which is that it isnt scientifically speaking a fact.gaming25

Well what is your stance then? All this for nothing?

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gaming25

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#138 gaming25
Member since 2010 • 6181 Posts

[QUOTE="gaming25"] I never told you my stance on the theory of evolution. I only have said my stance for what it is, which is that it isnt scientifically speaking a fact.BumFluff122

Nothing in science can be considered a 'fact'. Gravoty can not be considered a 'fact'. However this state absolutely nothing about evolution, I agree. Evolution, however, is probably as close to a fact as you can get in science.

Even though I disagree with you saying that its "as close to a fact as you can get in science", it doesnt matter, because that is still your opinion. And you shouldnt get too upset about me saying that, I just called it for what it is.
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gaming25

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#139 gaming25
Member since 2010 • 6181 Posts

[QUOTE="gaming25"] I never told you my stance on the theory of evolution. I only have said my stance for what it is, which is that it isnt scientifically speaking a fact.bloodling

Well what is your stance then? All this for nothing?

XD!!! Well, I base my beliefs off of faith, so i'm not sure I could sway you to believe what I believe (but maybe I can!!!) But my stance is that there is God, and I believe the Bible to be 100% true. Not from the scientific perspective, but from a Christian perspective.
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BumFluff122

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#140 BumFluff122
Member since 2004 • 14853 Posts

[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"] I never told you my stance on the theory of evolution. I only have said my stance for what it is, which is that it isnt scientifically speaking a fact.gaming25

Nothing in science can be considered a 'fact'. Gravoty can not be considered a 'fact'. However this state absolutely nothing about evolution, I agree. Evolution, however, is probably as close to a fact as you can get in science.

Even though I disagree with you saying that its "as close to a fact as you can get in science", it doesnt matter, because that is still your opinion. And you shouldnt get too upset about me saying that, I just called it for what it is.

Science does not work on opinion.

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laughingman42

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#141 laughingman42
Member since 2007 • 8730 Posts

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"] I never told you my stance on the theory of evolution. I only have said my stance for what it is, which is that it isnt scientifically speaking a fact.gaming25

Well what is your stance then? All this for nothing?

XD!!! Well, I base my beliefs off of faith, so i'm not sure I could sway you to believe what I believe (but maybe I can!!!) But my stance is that there is God, and I believe the Bible to be 100% true. Not from the scientific perspective, but from a Christian perspective.

Que? explain the highlighted part, please. I'm confused.

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Robbler

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#142 Robbler
Member since 2010 • 616 Posts

7 pages of BS for this?! I don't have much "faith" in any of you. There is no "God". Deal with it.

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MasterC5

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#143 MasterC5
Member since 2006 • 2932 Posts

Non-sequiturs, non-sequiturs everywhere.

R_Dawkins

this

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bloodling

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#144 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"] I never told you my stance on the theory of evolution. I only have said my stance for what it is, which is that it isnt scientifically speaking a fact.gaming25

Well what is your stance then? All this for nothing?

XD!!! Well, I base my beliefs off of faith, so i'm not sure I could sway you to believe what I believe (but maybe I can!!!) But my stance is that there is God, and I believe the Bible to be 100% true. Not from the scientific perspective, but from a Christian perspective.

I know, I mean, what is your stance (or the Bible's stance) on evolution?

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testfactor888

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#145 testfactor888
Member since 2010 • 7157 Posts

*very long pile of gibberish

oh no its too long , well have fun :P

gubrushadow

I see no proof therefore I continue to believe he does not exist. Thank you for your opinion though, I wish I could say it was an interesting read.

*leaves thread

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Msteele48

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#146 Msteele48
Member since 2009 • 1879 Posts

The First Law of Thermodynamics

What is the truth of modern science regarding the origin of all matter in the universe? Do scientists tell us that it has always existed? Or have they determined that there was a moment in time in which all matter came into existence? The answer to the second question is, yes! But what is the proof that this is true?

The First Law of Thermodynamics is stated as follows: Matter and energy can be neither created nor destroyed. There are no natural processes that can alter either matter or energy in this way. This means that there is no new matter or energy coming into existence and there is no new matter or energy passing out of existence. All who state that the universe came into existence from nothing violate the first law of thermodynamics, which was established by the very scientific community who now seem willing to ignore it. In summary, this law plainly demonstrates that the universe, and all matter and energy within it, must have had a divine origin—a specific moment in which it was created by someone who was all-powerful.

With the coming of the Atomic Age, beginning with the discovery of radium in 1898 by Madame Curie, came the knowledge that all radioactive elements continually give off radiation. Consider! Uranium has an atomic weight of 238.0. As it decomposes, it releases a helium atom three times. Each helium atom has a weight of 4. With the new weight of 226.0, uranium becomes radium. Radium continues to give off additional atoms until eventually the end product becomes the heavy inert element called lead. This takes a tremendous amount of time. While the process of uranium turning into radium is very long, the radium turns into lead in 1,590 years.

What are we saying? There was a point in time when the uranium could not have existed, because it always breaks down in a highly systematic, controlled way. It is not stable like lead or other elements. It breaks down. This means there was a specific moment in time when all radioactive elements came into existence. Remember, all of them—uranium, radium, thorium, radon, polonium, francium, protactinium and others—have not existed forever. This represents absolute proof that matter came into existence or, in other words, matter has not always existed!

This flies directly in the face of evolutionary thought—that everything gradually evolved into something else. Here is the problem. You cannot have something slowly come into existence from nothing! Matter could not have come into existence by itself. No rational person could believe that the entire universe—including all of the radioactive elements that prove there was a specific time of beginning—gradually came into existence BY ITSELF!

Through your own efforts, try to build something—anything—from nothing. Even with your creative power engaged in the effort, you would never be able to do it. You will not be able—in a hundred lifetimes of trying—to produce a single thing from nothing! Then, can any doubter believe that everything in the entirety of the universe, in all of its exquisite detail, came into existence completely by itself? Be honest. Accept facts. This is proof that the existing natural realm demands the existence of a Great Creator!
The Second Law of Thermodynamics

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is best summarized by saying that everything moves toward disorder—or a condition known as entropy. This bears some explanation and we will consider several examples.

Remember that evolutionists teach that everything is constantly evolving into a higher and more complex order. In other words, they believe things continue to get better and better instead of worse and worse.

If water being heated on a stove is at 150 degrees Fahrenheit, and the burner is turned off, the temperature will drop instead of rise. It will move toward colder rather than hotter. If a ball is placed on a hill, it will always roll downhill and not uphill. Energy used to perform any particular task changes from usable energy to unusable in the performing of that task. It will always go from a higher energy level to a lower energy level—where less and less energy is available for use.

When applied to the universe, the second law of thermodynamics indicates that the universe is winding down—moving toward disorder or entropy—not winding up or moving toward more perfect order and structure. In short, the entire universe is winding down!

Even evolutionists admit that the theory of evolution and the second law of thermodynamics are completely incompatible with each other. Consider: "Regarding the second law of thermodynamics (universally accepted scientific law which states that all things left to themselves will tend to run down) or the law of entropy, it is observed, 'It would hardly be possible to conceive of two more completely opposite principles than this principle of entropy increase and the principle of evolution. Each is precisely the converse of the other. As (Aldous) Huxley defined it, evolution involves a continual increase of order, of organization, of size, of complexity. It seems axiomatic that both cannot possibly be true. But there is no question whatever that the second law of thermodynamics is true'" (Morris, Henry M., The Twilight of Evolution, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1967, p. 35).

Like a top or a yo-yo, the universe must have been "wound up." Since the universe is constantly winding down, the second law of thermodynamics looms before us in the form of a great question: Who wound it up? The only plausible answer is God!

EVOLUTION

The theory of evolution is shot full of inconsistencies. Evolutionists have seized on many theories, within the overall theory of evolution, in an attempt to explain the origins of plants, animals, the heavens and the earth.

Over and over, these "theorists" try to explain how life evolved from inanimate material into more complex life forms until it reached the pinnacle—human beings.

Yet, as one geologist wrote, "It must be significant that nearly all the evolutionary stories I learned as student…have been debunked" (Dr. Derek V. Ager, Dept. of Geology, Imperial College, London, The Nature of the Fossil Record, Proceedings of the Geological Assoc., Vol. 87, 1976, pp. 1132-1133).

Perhaps the biggest reason that so many theories within the overall theory of evolution collapse is because they contain terrible logic requiring great leaps in faith to believe. Here is one example of a "debunked" theory: "Many evolutionists have tried to argue that humans are 99% similar chemically to apes and blood precipitation tests do indicate that the chimpanzee is people's closest relative. Yet regarding this we must observe the following: 'Milk chemistry indicates that the donkey is man's closest relative.' 'Cholesterol level tests indicate that the garter snake is man's closest relative.' 'Tear enzyme chemistry indicates that the chicken is man's closest relative.' 'On the basis of another type of blood chemistry test, the butter bean is man's closest relative'" (Morris, Henry M., The Twilight of Evolution, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1967).

oh no its too long , well have fun :P

gubrushadow

*Sends to failblog.org*.......''well my job is done here''

Copy and paste ''Win or fail'' you tell me :P :lol:

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rawsavon

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#147 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts
These threads make me sad :(
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194197844077667059316682358889

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#148 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
These threads make me sad :(rawsavon
TC, you have made rawsavon cry. I hope you're happy :x
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gaming25

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#149 gaming25
Member since 2010 • 6181 Posts
[QUOTE="laughingman42"]

[QUOTE="gaming25"][QUOTE="bloodling"]

Well what is your stance then? All this for nothing?

XD!!! Well, I base my beliefs off of faith, so i'm not sure I could sway you to believe what I believe (but maybe I can!!!) But my stance is that there is God, and I believe the Bible to be 100% true. Not from the scientific perspective, but from a Christian perspective.

Que? explain the highlighted part, please. I'm confused.

A Biblical perspective deals with faith.
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Mousetaches

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#150 Mousetaches
Member since 2009 • 1293 Posts

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]These threads make me sad :(xaos
TC, you have made rawsavon cry. I hope you're happy :x

TC makes me sad.